SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Beyond the Message, a midweek space where we continue the conversation from Sunday's sermon, unpacking context, exploring your questions, and growing as we listen, learn, and follow Jesus together.
SPEAKER_03: Hi guys, welcome back to another episode of Beyond the Message, our midweek podcast where we look back on last Sunday's sermon and go deeper, answering your questions, sharing further reflections, and we're super excited because today we're actually wrapping up our mini-series Come Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_03: I'm Jess, I'll be hosting this week.
SPEAKER_03: Caleb did preach last week, but he's away at a 24-7 hooey.
SPEAKER_03: And so we are delighted to have Pastor Grant Harris joining us.
SPEAKER_01: You can pretend that I'm Caleb.
SPEAKER_01: You can maybe like hold up a little face thing.
SPEAKER_03: Maybe you could pretend that you're Caleb and feel a little bit younger.
SPEAKER_01: Could.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: But it's good to age.
SPEAKER_03: God wants us to age, so you know.
SPEAKER_01: Can't change it.
SPEAKER_03: Aging gracefully.
SPEAKER_03: Very good.
SPEAKER_03: It's me.
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, look, if you've got Grays, I've got Greys.
SPEAKER_03: It's life.
SPEAKER_03: You know, it happens.
SPEAKER_03: Anyway, uh, we'll be wrapping up our series, and we're super excited about it.
SPEAKER_03: It's been an awesome series, and we've got some great things to discuss today.
SPEAKER_03: So Caleb's message was on a spirit-led community, and we'll do a bit of a summary soon.
SPEAKER_03: But a couple of things that we're going to touch on today is exploring why Paul uses the body as the image to describe the church.
SPEAKER_03: I've never really thought about it.
SPEAKER_03: I think that's quite an interesting thing to dive into.
SPEAKER_03: Um, we'll look at what it means for each of us to play our part and what happens when we don't.
SPEAKER_03: We'll also chat about burnout and ask whether it's possible to be a healthy Christian without being connected to the church.
SPEAKER_03: That's pretty hard-hitting stuff there that might be a wee bit confrontational for some.
SPEAKER_03: And we'll finish by imagining the kind of church that we could come if every person embraced the role that God had given them.
SPEAKER_03: So there's a lot to discuss.
SPEAKER_01: Good stuff.
SPEAKER_03: Very good stuff.
SPEAKER_03: I'm super excited about it.
SPEAKER_03: But I thought before we reflect on the sermon and before we, I guess, wrap up the series with these questions, it'd be quite cool for us maybe to share and a couple things that have either challenged us or inspired us or surprised us in this series.
SPEAKER_03: I think, especially you as a pastor that's been a pastor for a long time.
SPEAKER_03: It's verses and scriptures that you've probably preached on many times.
SPEAKER_03: So it's always fascinating to hear if there was something that did challenge you or stand out to you.
SPEAKER_03: Um yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Was there anything that's challenged you in the series that sort of took you by surprise a little bit?
SPEAKER_01: I think whenever we do a series on the Holy Spirit, this is not the first one that we've done on the Holy Spirit, and it's not the first one that I've done across two churches now.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there's always new things to learn.
SPEAKER_01: And I think as a community of faith, every community functions differently, and there's a wide spectrum of people within churches.
SPEAKER_01: Certainly, there is at Windsor from a wide range of backgrounds.
SPEAKER_01: So I guess it's not surprising, but it always creates really interesting discussion for people, depending on where they've been and what they've experienced in life.
SPEAKER_01: So personally, I find that quite energizing, but it's also quite challenging at the same time because of those backgrounds, because of the experiences that we've had.
SPEAKER_01: In a church the size of Windsor, there's just like a melting pot.
SPEAKER_01: And so you get some people that are kind of nervous about talking about it, you get some people who are new to the whole idea of spiritual gifts or the Holy Spirit being incarnated within us.
SPEAKER_01: So I guess it it's not surprising.
SPEAKER_01: I guess I enjoy that kind of challenge to wrestle with what it means.
SPEAKER_01: I think personally speaking, look, none of us know it all.
SPEAKER_01: And so I think even when you preach and teach on it, there are new things to learn.
SPEAKER_01: And so for me, I think it's just that continued growth and how the Holy Spirit ministers in my life, what that looks like, how I affirm my gifts, how I kind of keep working that out, and I think that's grown and evolved in the course of my life.
SPEAKER_01: So, always the ongoing process.
SPEAKER_01: What about you?
SPEAKER_03: It was good.
SPEAKER_03: Um, I think it surprised me how simple yet challenging this series was.
SPEAKER_03: And I don't want to diminish it by saying it's simple, but I mean it is quite practical on what we can do to um be in step with the spirit and to work out our giftings.
SPEAKER_03: But your message on love and love first, I thought I was good at that.
SPEAKER_03: I thought I was like, I got love covered.
SPEAKER_03: Like me and love, we're good.
SPEAKER_03: Like I can be kind.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I was just like I was very convicted of the invitation that you gave us to replace the love is patient, love is kind with our name.
SPEAKER_03: Um, so Jess is patient, Jess is kind.
SPEAKER_03: And when you put it like that, it's not just a one-off moment, it's who we are.
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's what challenged me the most is okay, I've got a bit to work on there.
SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, that challenged me.
SPEAKER_03: But what encouraged me the most this series is just being reminded of the fact that everyone has a part to play and we're all so different, and yet our part is all so important, and being able to actually take notice of that a little bit more.
SPEAKER_03: So you think of Anne, if you were at our Marangy Bay campus on Sunday, she did a live painting in our services as a way of outworking her gift that she believes God's given her, and it was really cool because it's her being vulnerable, like art is a very vulnerable thing to do, and then to do it live and to have all these eyes on you is quite intimidating.
SPEAKER_03: But then also to allow people the opportunity to connect with the series and the message through art was really beautiful.
SPEAKER_03: I think of Peyton, who stepped into um worship um at Windsor on stage, and the way that she's sharing her gift in that.
SPEAKER_03: I think of Michaela, who's just joined her mum on the welcome team and has found a place to serve behind the tea and coffee station, giving people their cups of tea and coffee.
SPEAKER_03: I think of Neil, who runs our 60 plus socials and our Sunday lunch clubs, who just has a heart for seeing people included and being um in community together.
SPEAKER_03: And I think of all these people, and they just they could like seem like such, you know, minor things that they're doing, but they all have a huge role to play in what God has intended for their life, but also for others' lives.
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, because they're stepping into that, we get to enjoy God in a new way as well, whether it's through a cup of tea or through worship or through socializing.
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, you've always seen people doing these things, but the series has really just highlighted it more for me.
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's been really cool.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great.
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I really loved doing last week while Aidan's away on leave is I facilitated he has a life group of young adults that meets down at November Cafe in Warangi Bay on a Tuesday morning, 7 a.m.
SPEAKER_01: And I stepped into that space for him just for that one day and had a discussion with them around prophecy and helping them to say, while us you're young, you've got a voice.
SPEAKER_01: And how do you use that voice in the context of encouraging, supporting, being with one another in the church for each other?
SPEAKER_01: So I really loved that.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the feedback that they gave was nice.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I bought them a coffee, so it probably helped.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but at the same time we're there.
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time that it was new to them.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And I guess in the church context, as they're growing and developing, that they do have a voice, and I really want to hear that voice.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the church needs young people's voice.
SPEAKER_01: So stepping into a gift that might be new for them and giving them the encouragement to just give it a try.
SPEAKER_01: Just pray and sense what the spirit might be saying, and then step into that space.
SPEAKER_01: Um, with love all around it, it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_01: So I really enjoyed doing that.
SPEAKER_03: I noticed you've got a special jumper on.
SPEAKER_03: Do you want to touch on that as well?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so if you are watching us visually, you'll see it.
SPEAKER_01: But if not, I'm wearing a sweatshirt, which is Chapelware.
SPEAKER_01: And Chapelware is a brand that was developed by Tamani, one of our worship leaders.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and Tamani's got a real heart for conveying scripture, I guess, in the public space.
SPEAKER_01: And so maybe a year ago, he kind of launched this apparel brand.
SPEAKER_01: And I really love it because on the front it says called Chapelware.
SPEAKER_01: I kind of like that brand, but on the back it's got a scripture.
SPEAKER_01: So anyone that's following me along, wherever I am, kind of sees that scripture.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think that's that's something that Tamani's kind of stepped into as well.
SPEAKER_01: That's his growth.
SPEAKER_01: Um, wanting God to be glorified in our world, but through apparel.
SPEAKER_01: So, anyway, you can check it out, chapelware.com.
SPEAKER_03: Uh it's not sponsored, but it is great quality clothing.
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, I've got a couple of t-shirts, I've got this hoodie that I wear as well, and I kind of say that's one of his gifts.
SPEAKER_01: He's stepping into that space and kind of walking in faith, really, because he didn't know how that was going to go.
SPEAKER_01: No.
SPEAKER_01: But you'll see a few of us kind of wearing these t-shirts or these hoodies around.
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and he's got a range of different apparel products that he's kind of launched as part of that.
SPEAKER_01: And he works in the printing industry, that's his job.
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's a great way of combining, I guess, what he does vocationally with his heart to see God's presence in our in our community.
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
SPEAKER_03: I wonder if woo is something that's one of your spiritual gifts, because you could be a salesperson for Chapelware.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's funny.
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, before 5% on sales.
SPEAKER_03: Before we get too sidetracked, let's let's jump back into Caleb's message.
SPEAKER_03: So he um brought us a message, it was wrapping up our series on a spiritly community.
SPEAKER_03: So essentially he was looking at how we are one body with many parts, how every person has a part to play, that every gift matters, and that the Holy Spirit ultimately is what brings us together, not just as individuals, but as a community and as a church.
SPEAKER_03: Do you think that's a fair summary?
SPEAKER_03: Is there anything I missed that you want to add?
SPEAKER_01: No, I think that sounded great.
SPEAKER_01: And he gave a a range of practical examples, just like you gave before, of people kind of stepping into that space, giving stuff a try, encouraging us to kind of say, you know, how has God wide us?
SPEAKER_01: And let's get into that, let the spirit lead that.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_03: So the verse is all about a body.
unknown: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: And I thought it was really interesting to maybe reflect on why do you think Paul chose the picture of a body to describe the church, not a family or a group or a community?
SPEAKER_03: Why a body?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I think scripturally Paul is uh reflecting upon everything that he would have known in the scriptures that he had at the time, which was the Old Testament.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and if you go back into the Old Testament, you can see what one of the scriptures I use a lot is that we are created in the image of God.
SPEAKER_01: Um so if we're created in the image of God, if that's like a physical body, then we're kind of saying, Well, is God thinking of himself in a physical sense?
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's kind of right at the very start of scripture, we get that kind of imagery coming through.
SPEAKER_01: And then when we step into the New Testament and we talk about the incarnation, I mean, when God comes to this world, when he sends his only son, he doesn't send him in any other way except as a human, fully human, fully divine, as Jesus is called.
SPEAKER_01: So God himself is representing himself in our world as a body, uh, as a human body.
SPEAKER_01: So there's this, there's this incredible sense of understanding that our bodies are inherently good and valued and are of God.
SPEAKER_01: And then there are other scriptures, 1 Corinthians 6, 19.
SPEAKER_01: You know, do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you?
SPEAKER_01: So I think scripturally, right back to the very beginning of creation, there's this sense that humanity and and our physical bodies is representative of God.
SPEAKER_01: So God in us, God with us, and then flowing out of that is just the interdependence of the way in which our bodies work.
SPEAKER_01: Everything functions because of everything else.
SPEAKER_01: There is nothing that can kind of you know operate outside of our body.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the scripture is given if our finger is kind of chopped off, then it's nothing.
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't work.
SPEAKER_01: So there's this picture within us of God's interdependence.
SPEAKER_01: Everything works together for his glory, created in his image.
SPEAKER_01: So I think Paul is both developing that image, but also building upon the imagery that we see throughout scripture.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good.
SPEAKER_01: Does that sound okay?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it sounds great to me.
SPEAKER_03: That's good.
SPEAKER_03: Love it.
SPEAKER_03: So that one's ticked off.
SPEAKER_03: We can move on.
SPEAKER_03: I just thought it was really interesting because he has so many other pictures that he could have used.
SPEAKER_03: And um, I never really thought about it being that God, you know, yeah, what seed us in his image and the body being part of that too.
SPEAKER_01: And there's so much depth and richness in that.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, again, just to add to that, we take communion once a month, it's inherently part of the church.
SPEAKER_01: Or what does Jesus say?
SPEAKER_01: This is my body broken for you.
SPEAKER_01: And so the body of Christ broken for us, again, that sacrificial love of Christ in bodily form.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so again, the the imagery, the significance of it is is rich and deep.
SPEAKER_03: Uh how would church look different if we saw ourselves as part of a body rather than just attending a service?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01: It's a really good question because often when people think about church, they think, Sunday, coming to church.
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's what we do, that's church.
SPEAKER_01: And here at Windsor, you would often hear me say, This good, and we come together and it's you know, you know, it's wonderful we enjoy that.
SPEAKER_01: But I often say this is not all there is to it.
SPEAKER_01: That's why we encourage smaller groups or serving together or doing stuff together in in a whole myriad of different ways, because Sunday is just kind of that celebration, that kind of that big sense of all of us in it together.
SPEAKER_01: But if we all play our parts, then it's so much more than Sunday.
SPEAKER_01: Faith and the church is rich and deep seven days a week.
SPEAKER_01: And I think we see that a lot at Windsor, a lot of people meetings.
SPEAKER_01: Life groups, for instance, we have a huge focus on that because that's where you develop a much more intimate relationship with people, and so we talk about caring for one another.
SPEAKER_01: It's not always best on a Sunday.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're just sitting down there looking at me or Caleb as it was on Sunday, and we're kind of just looking at you, and you're all in rows.
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that Sunday, but I would just say that the huge depth, the fullest expression of the body of Christ, um, is probably not a Sunday, actually.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, many people serve on a Sunday, it's all good, like I say, it's a good thing, but on the scale of things, it's there's something much greater to be achieved when we use our gifts, when we love, when we care for one another, um, in much smaller groups.
SPEAKER_03: I also think that um, you know, we can come on a Sunday and we can sit and listen, or we can play guitar on stage, or we can welcome people, but all those things in isolation don't really mean a whole lot.
SPEAKER_03: Um, but when you bring it all together, something significant happens and people are able to experience Jesus in a new way because of that.
SPEAKER_03: And so I think you know, that image of the body, when you think of every part needs each other, even just on a Sunday, we all need each other too.
SPEAKER_03: And it's very easy to kind of think of just me, myself, and I in isolation.
SPEAKER_03: But when we think of what God is inviting us into as part of actually the wider church and community, as part of the body, it's so much bigger than just what we're doing.
SPEAKER_03: Not that it's not important because every part is important, but together we have a human that can run and walk and engage and share the message and share the good news.
SPEAKER_03: And so what happens then when we don't play our part?
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that's real.
SPEAKER_01: That happens a lot.
SPEAKER_01: We just miss the opportunity to serve.
SPEAKER_01: We miss the opportunity to get to know people and to experience, I guess, what the spirit has done in them, to hear their stories.
SPEAKER_01: I I often say that one of the best things we can do is hear our older people tell our younger people their stories.
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
SPEAKER_01: Uh we could do better with that.
SPEAKER_01: Um a lot of older people are like, oh, I don't really have a story to tell.
SPEAKER_01: And then you ask them about their lives, and it's incredible.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Um and so we miss the opportunity to experience the fullness of God and to see God displayed through our lives the unique gifts that I see in people that I don't have.
SPEAKER_01: Um, if if people aren't, you know, kind of participating in that, then then I miss that.
SPEAKER_01: Um and I probably have, you know, a little bit to add to others as well.
SPEAKER_01: And so it's that brother and sister relationship, you know, we talk about being final family.
SPEAKER_01: For those of us who have brothers and sisters, we know those people well because we hang out with them a lot.
SPEAKER_01: That's kind of what makes families strong in a good world, not always great.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but and it's the same with the church.
SPEAKER_01: And so when we don't offer ourselves, when we don't work out of our gifts, we people miss things.
SPEAKER_01: They don't see us for the way that God's created us, and we don't offer ourselves.
SPEAKER_01: So I just think there's a lot of missing parts when we don't contribute.
SPEAKER_03: And I don't think it's just missing for those that are already in the church, it's missing for those that are outside of the church.
SPEAKER_03: Think of um the opportunities that you might have just through hosting someone or whatever it is that you feel you were gifted in that someone else who might never have experienced Jesus might have experienced if you had stepped into that.
SPEAKER_01: But of course, the letters that we've been looking at, particularly Corinthians, is written to the church.
SPEAKER_01: The vast majority of the letters in the New Testament are written to the church because I think Paul and the other biblical writers are kind of saying, get this going well amongst you, and that in itself becomes a testimony.
SPEAKER_03: And that will overflow.
SPEAKER_01: And that will overflow into the world.
SPEAKER_01: So we often we have to get this balance right between, I guess, working on ourselves and our character development with our relationships with one another.
SPEAKER_01: So I always got about the 59 one-another's through the New Testament, so that people see it.
SPEAKER_03: So good.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it I have said it before, say it again.
SPEAKER_01: That's the greatest miracle.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: The greatest miracle is when we can bear with one another through all of our problems, through all of our differences, uh, and see the love that 1 Corinthians 13 talks about um displayed.
SPEAKER_01: It it's that's a ministry in itself.
SPEAKER_03: For some people, and I'll probably put myself in that category, not necessarily in knowing what my gift is, but in wanting to be sure of something before doing it, they might be hesitant to step into uh what they believe God is putting on their life as a spiritual gift because they just don't know.
SPEAKER_03: Is that my gift?
SPEAKER_03: Is this right?
SPEAKER_03: Is this what God's calling me to?
SPEAKER_03: And because of that, they'll hesitate and wait, but then they're missing out on this opportunity to serve and to try things and to give it a go.
SPEAKER_03: What would you say to someone that's maybe in that mindset or that?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Well, you've answered your own question.
SPEAKER_01: Um, when you said those that are missing out by not trying to do something, it's trial and error a lot of the time.
SPEAKER_01: I think we can do courses and heather does wonderful jobs.
SPEAKER_01: She had a great turnout of people.
SPEAKER_01: Um, discover your design.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: Last week is awesome.
SPEAKER_01: We can do all those.
SPEAKER_01: There's plenty of assessments around there.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've done lots of assessments, um, you know, and my personality and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01: There's all that stuff, which is good.
SPEAKER_01: It's all good stuff, but nothing ever replaces just giving something a try.
SPEAKER_01: Let me use one example of one person in our church who is now on our staff team.
SPEAKER_01: Um, Dylan Fortune, our pastor of children's ministries.
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, he was in finance before he became a pastor, a little bit like me.
SPEAKER_01: And Dylan would just say, the only thing I want to do for the rest of my life is children's ministry.
SPEAKER_01: He just loves kids' ministry.
SPEAKER_01: And when he was young, he became like a kids' ministry leader, and then he went into youth leadership.
SPEAKER_01: I think he was maybe your leader or around that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_03: He was, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: That your year group.
SPEAKER_01: But then he was like, you know, I just love kids' ministry.
SPEAKER_01: And he went back to kids' ministry.
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people sort of do kids ministry and then grow into youth leadership and then whatever.
SPEAKER_01: Um, he's like, I I just love this.
SPEAKER_01: And he did that, you know, out of trial and error in many ways.
SPEAKER_01: What did he feel that he loved?
SPEAKER_01: And so I always say to people, give it a try.
SPEAKER_01: Become a kids church leader.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we need them.
SPEAKER_01: Or serve in the cafe.
SPEAKER_01: You might really love being a barista.
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's one thing I don't touch because I hopeless at that.
SPEAKER_01: Tried it, hopeless.
SPEAKER_01: But give things a whirl, and I hope that we're the kind of community where we do empower people to give stuff a try.
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're a musician and you're like, oh, I don't know if I'm good enough.
SPEAKER_01: Um, well, speak to Joe Shane about that.
SPEAKER_01: You know, let's let's see if we can make a way for you to give that a try.
SPEAKER_01: Um, you this is what I said to the young adults with prophecy.
SPEAKER_01: It's like, I don't know, it might not be a gift, but it might be.
SPEAKER_01: Give it a try, see what happens.
SPEAKER_01: And I think in that process of trial and error, we learn about ourselves.
SPEAKER_01: And there's nothing wrong with that.
SPEAKER_01: There's nothing wrong with giving something a try and going, I don't really like that.
SPEAKER_01: I just don't feel like I'm wired for that.
SPEAKER_01: It's all good.
SPEAKER_01: No issues at all with that.
SPEAKER_01: That's the process of self-discovery.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so anyway.
SPEAKER_03: I this I think back to the dream center when we used to do our LA exposure trips, and they had the saying that if you see a need, fill it or something along those lines.
SPEAKER_03: And I think sometimes it's as simple as if you notice a need, there's probably God highlighting that to you.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: And maybe you're not the person to fill it, but if you can identify it and try and step into it or help, you know, get the right person to fill it, that's also a way that God might speak to us.
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely it is.
SPEAKER_01: Because there's plenty of needs.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're just like a church, like any other church.
SPEAKER_01: You know, we have a long list of vacancies as far as volunteers go.
SPEAKER_01: Maybe just give it a try.
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you you run a team, our our photographers.
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: Um, someone might be interested in photography.
SPEAKER_01: They're I don't know if I'm good enough for this.
SPEAKER_01: What would you say to them?
SPEAKER_03: Tim's teaching me.
SPEAKER_03: I have no idea what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_03: I just learned bite aperture.
SPEAKER_03: So there we go.
SPEAKER_01: Give it a try.
SPEAKER_03: Give it a whirl.
SPEAKER_03: Um, I guess coming back to the question of what happens when we don't play our part.
SPEAKER_03: Is not only are people potentially missing out or definitely missing out to some degree, but also other people are having to compensate because of that.
SPEAKER_03: And I guess we start to worry about burnout then.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so do you think burnout is actually a body problem rather than an individual problem?
SPEAKER_01: So I think theologically, I think God does empower the church and not just Windsor, but the church in a general sense.
SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like some churches are good at doing some things and some churches are good at doing others.
SPEAKER_01: So there is kind of diversity within the church.
SPEAKER_01: I think burnout can come sometimes in the church when we feel like we have to do everything.
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and we feel like, oh man, you know, we have this gap, we've got to, we've got to do this.
SPEAKER_01: The body works beyond just Windsor.
SPEAKER_01: The the body is the body of Christ as churches.
SPEAKER_01: So I often say churches are like ice cream, you know, we're all we're all ice cream, we just got different flavours of that.
SPEAKER_01: And so we have to kind of work out well what's God calling us to?
SPEAKER_01: What's God calling us to fulfill his mission in these areas?
SPEAKER_01: And I think burnout can be where we feel personal responsibility to do everything, and it's okay.
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that we aren't good at doing here in the church generally is saying, what's God calling us to stop?
SPEAKER_01: Like we often talk about what's he calling us to start, but maybe we're just working too hard or we are burning out in a particular area.
SPEAKER_01: Maybe God's saying, Hey, just take a break from that.
SPEAKER_01: You know, it doesn't all depend on on you.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think burnout can be something we experience personally and we have to manage that in ourselves, but it can also be something that can burn chitches as well.
SPEAKER_01: So we have to be wise, again, relying upon the spirit to guide us.
SPEAKER_01: It's okay to say no, it's okay to stop, it's okay to look after ourselves.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: I also do think there's a little bit of um maybe conviction, and I always say conviction is a positive thing.
SPEAKER_03: I use it in a very positive light, but I know people have negative connotations with that word, or accountability of a church relies on people.
SPEAKER_03: A church would not be a church if it wasn't for people stepping up and playing their part in it.
SPEAKER_03: Like it'd be great to have a preacher, but if we just had a preacher, it wouldn't be Windsor.
SPEAKER_03: And I encourage people to consider what is it that you love about Windsor?
SPEAKER_03: Is it the fact that we're very community-centred and we serve in so many ways to our external community as well?
SPEAKER_03: Is it the worship?
SPEAKER_03: Is it how welcoming we are?
SPEAKER_03: And if you're not playing a part in that, maybe you need to be.
SPEAKER_03: Um, because there's a lot of people that love this church but are happy to be a fly in the wall or a warflower.
SPEAKER_01: It it's a challenge.
SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, our encouragement is always to say to people, look, we never have kind of enough.
SPEAKER_01: General life experience in any volunteer organization is that you know most things are done by a few people.
SPEAKER_01: Um that's true of the church.
SPEAKER_01: But we literally do have hundreds of people here.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's always room.
SPEAKER_01: There's always room for more.
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I've been thinking about that myself.
SPEAKER_03: I used to be on the welcome team, and when I had kids, I pulled back and I still serve or volunteer in other ways, but not in that same capacity as I was.
SPEAKER_03: And so I think for myself, oh actually, this is something that I think is important.
SPEAKER_03: And so I'm convicted to go and step back into it.
SPEAKER_03: And I think, yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03: I think sometimes we just turn up.
SPEAKER_03: And if that's where you're at, that's fine.
SPEAKER_03: There's nothing wrong with that, and we welcome you and we love you.
SPEAKER_03: But I do think there comes a part where actually we're caught to step in and be part of the greater story too.
SPEAKER_01: There's certainly seasons in life, and we've got to be conscious of those seasons in life.
SPEAKER_01: I think of two uh guys in our church, older, um, who don't have young children anymore, don't, you know, uh empty nestes, etc., who serve in very significant governance roles within our denomination.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: And purely as volunteers, one of them has a super busy job, yes, but feels like he can contribute at that level out of his experience.
SPEAKER_01: And well, they both feel like this, out of their experiences, and you know, they're older, but again, it's a season of life.
SPEAKER_01: They're able to do that.
SPEAKER_01: They can serve on those organizations during the day because their work situation is flexible for them these days.
SPEAKER_01: So again, seasons of life and growing into those places are so important.
SPEAKER_03: And I think as well, there's other ways that you can think about how you can show love beyond just at church on a Sunday.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's one thing and that's what you're talking about, or that was what Paul was talking about was within the church.
SPEAKER_03: But you know, if you are in a busy season of life, then when you're on your way somewhere, just praying for someone that you know is going through something.
SPEAKER_01: Or or if you're in a busy season of life with kids, serving your family.
SPEAKER_01: Definitely serving.
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
SPEAKER_03: Growing the next generation.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, natural church growth.
SPEAKER_03: Oh gosh, that's a bit convicting too.
SPEAKER_03: Anyway, this is a convicting message, and I love it.
SPEAKER_03: Conviction is good.
SPEAKER_03: Following on, and this one might be a little bit confrontational for some.
SPEAKER_03: Well, actually, don't know how you're gonna answer it, so maybe we'll see.
SPEAKER_03: Maybe it won't be at all.
SPEAKER_03: But do you think you can be a healthy Christian in isolation?
SPEAKER_03: So we talk about having a personal relationship with Jesus, but Paul talks about be belonging to the body.
SPEAKER_03: And so, do you think you can grow spiritually while staying disconnected from a local church?
SPEAKER_03: Because we see a lot of people saying these days, you know, I'm very spiritual and I believe in Jesus, but I don't need the church.
SPEAKER_03: A church isn't for me, it's a religious institution and that's not how I want to live my relationship.
SPEAKER_03: So what do you sort of have to say about that?
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the questions that people would raise in that discussion, and depending where you view it, is that is that a salvation issue?
SPEAKER_01: If you're effectively cut off from the church, cut my finger off, you're kind of dead.
SPEAKER_01: And to be fair, scripture points towards that.
SPEAKER_01: I personally don't feel it's a salvation issue, but I do think it's a very practical issue.
SPEAKER_01: And I think there is some merit in what the Bible says about that.
SPEAKER_01: That if we feel like, oh, I'm just, you know, developing my own faith in my own way at my own home, that's not actually belonging to the body of Christ.
SPEAKER_01: So you can do that, but you're missing a big part of it, and you're missing the opportunity to contribute to others' lives and for them to contribute to you.
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot to be missed with that.
SPEAKER_01: And again, the the images that we see in scripture are so rich and deep in that space that I would say, well, is it an obedience issue?
SPEAKER_01: Possibly.
SPEAKER_01: It is a challenge.
SPEAKER_01: People get hurt in churches.
SPEAKER_01: I understand that, but there is pathways to forgiveness, there is pathways to develop our own character in that space, and we when we pull away from that, we aren't giving ourselves the opportunity to grow in that space.
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think it's a salvation issue, but I do think it prevents us from thriving, and more than that, it's a disservice to God, to the body of Christ, to the church in all of its various forms.
SPEAKER_01: It might not just be like us, you know.
SPEAKER_01: You could say, Well, I'm part of a a small group of people that meet in a home and we call ourselves kind of the church because we're we're learning, we're growing, we're being missional.
SPEAKER_02: That's fine.
SPEAKER_01: A lot of churches grow out of that, yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_01: Which is awesome.
SPEAKER_01: So it's really we have to check our motivations and why is it that we're pulling away sometimes.
SPEAKER_03: And I think it's good that you acknowledge her, and I know we've spoken about that before as well in different podcasts.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: But I think a lot of people have been hurt by the church or have these negative connotations of a church, but not every church is like that.
SPEAKER_03: And there, you know, a church is made up of people, and people are going to make mistakes and it's never going to be perfect.
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
SPEAKER_03: But there is reconciliation and there is forgiveness, and we are better together, and we see that every week.
SPEAKER_01: Character develops and we allow that process, as hard as it can be sometimes for us to be able to forgive someone, for us to receive forgiveness, for us to work through what it is to have differences of opinion.
SPEAKER_01: Ah, I keep coming back to it.
SPEAKER_01: It's miraculous.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Because it's a work of the spirit, but it really glorifies God when we do that well.
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
SPEAKER_03: So to wrap up, this whole mini-series, no pressure.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_03: Uh, but if we were to imagine every person in our church um believed that they had a place and faithfully played their part, what kind of church do you think we'd become?
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think ultimately it would become a church.
SPEAKER_01: Well, we'll continue to be a church because I think it's true to a point.
SPEAKER_01: That people would look at and go, huh, there's something in there.
SPEAKER_01: You know, I guess that's what Paul's encouraging the church to be.
SPEAKER_01: That the outsiders in those days would look at followers of Jesus the way they were called, and would go, I don't how do they do that?
SPEAKER_01: Why do they love each other so much?
SPEAKER_01: You know, in the book of Acts, why are they selling stuff to support each other?
SPEAKER_01: Why are they why are they doing this?
SPEAKER_01: This is like interesting.
SPEAKER_01: And so I think Paul would say that it's well, that's missional in itself.
SPEAKER_01: So you can't really wrap up this series because it's the ongoing work for us.
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's a series that's, you know, we did a series on the Holy Spirit maybe six or seven years ago as well.
SPEAKER_01: It's good to be reminded of these things, particularly in those passages in 1 Corinthians 12 through 14.
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the big chapters that meant a lot to the community at the time.
SPEAKER_01: And they mean just as much to us today.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_03: So throughout the series, we've seen that the Holy Spirit doesn't just fill individuals, he actually forms community, and every person matters, every gift matters, and every part belongs.
SPEAKER_03: So thank you for joining us as we've gone through this mini-series.
SPEAKER_03: Thanks for tuning in to be on the messages.
SPEAKER_03: We've unpacked it further, and we hope it's been helpful.
SPEAKER_03: We hope we haven't just yabbered on a bit too much, but that you've actually got something um good or new or exciting or challenging out of it.
SPEAKER_03: Um, of course, we encourage you to continue to listen.
SPEAKER_03: This week we jump back into our King and Kingdom Come series, the Gospel according to Luke, a three-year series.
SPEAKER_03: We'll be going into the second half officially.
SPEAKER_03: So part two B, it's very confusing.
SPEAKER_01: Luke chapter 15.
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
SPEAKER_03: And you're preaching.
SPEAKER_03: So can you give us a little bit of a teaser?
SPEAKER_01: Ha.
SPEAKER_01: Well, Luke 15 has three really well-known parables for us.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it challenges us to really think about uh the one.
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to give too much away, but you know, you can read them and you'll see it yourself anyway.
SPEAKER_01: There's some real themes around how God pursues us, about how God loves us, but then about how God challenges us to think about who is the one in in our life that we, I guess, are praying for and actively trying to, I guess, help them get to know Jesus, which is great because we have Alpha coming up in July.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: As well.
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean, Jesus is on the road in this next block of our section.
SPEAKER_01: He's talking parables all the time.
SPEAKER_01: We love that.
SPEAKER_03: Love a parable.
SPEAKER_01: Um, these are three parables with three themes running right through them.
SPEAKER_03: Great.
SPEAKER_03: So a lot to look forward to this Sunday.
SPEAKER_03: And as always, we invite you to share your reflections, send in questions.
SPEAKER_03: You can do that at windsorpark.org.nz forward slash podcast.
SPEAKER_03: There's also a little section there where you can leave feedback on the podcast if you love it, hate it, somewhere in between.
SPEAKER_03: We want to hear your perspectives and your thoughts because it shapes what we do every single week.
SPEAKER_03: But until then, we pray that God will continue to shape us as we listen, learn, and follow together.
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER_03: Have a great week.