SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Beyond the Message, a midweek space where we continue the conversation from Sunday's sermon, unpacking context, exploring your questions, and growing as we listen, learn, and follow Jesus together.
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Beyond the Message.
SPEAKER_01: My name is Aidan.
SPEAKER_01: Today I'm joined by Pastor Grant.
SPEAKER_01: And on Sunday, Grant took us back into Luke.
SPEAKER_01: We looked at chapter 15 and we got back into our King and Kingdom Come series.
SPEAKER_01: It was a great message, and I'll summarize it soon.
SPEAKER_01: But just for those who are wondering, what are we talking about today?
SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to be talking about when Jesus goes after the one, what happens to the 99?
SPEAKER_01: Who's looking after them?
SPEAKER_01: And we're also going to talk about the titles that we give to these parables, where they come from, did Jesus title them, and how that affects how we read them.
SPEAKER_01: But as promised, uh, I'll summarize, and I I always like summarizing a well-structured message because there were three points.
SPEAKER_01: And I was listening for the three points.
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I've got the three points here that um God pursues the one, uh, and God takes the initial initiative he pursues, uh, which I love.
SPEAKER_01: And then that everyone matters to God, which I know is it seemed really close to your heart as well.
SPEAKER_01: And that really came through that everyone who was listening in l online or in person, everyone matters to God.
SPEAKER_01: And then my favorite was that God celebrates the one, and that really came through in each of the three parables.
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just someone coming home, but it was someone coming home and a celebration.
SPEAKER_01: And um nothing like a good feast, nothing like a good feast, and God really celebrates that.
SPEAKER_01: Uh so uh it was all about the one, uh, but it showed us a lot about God's heart, which we'll get onto.
SPEAKER_01: Anything else you want to add, Grant?
SPEAKER_01: Because there were three parables, one super well-known and probably one of the most famous parables that Jesus told.
SPEAKER_01: So again, it's tough to summarize in one sermon and cover all of them, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: But I like how you link them together.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I think they do link together quite naturally, even though we take them individually a lot of the time.
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a pretty good summary.
SPEAKER_00: Good job.
SPEAKER_01: So as alluded to, uh, one of the parables involves, you know, a theoretical shepherd leaving the 99 to go after the one.
SPEAKER_01: And I think as Christians, uh, we often we celebrate, we love the fact that we have a God who would seek out the one lost sheep.
SPEAKER_01: But sometimes we also wonder then if he's doing that, who who's looking after the 99?
SPEAKER_01: That it said uh left in the wilderness.
SPEAKER_01: Because does that seem a little bit neglectful almost?
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I think a lot of people ask those sort of questions because sometimes we can look at a parable and it's like, oh, what about this and what about that?
SPEAKER_00: And the challenge is to kind of read the bigger point of what the parable is about.
SPEAKER_00: I think, and a few people asked about this and have questioned that what about that 99?
SPEAKER_00: It says in that parable that he left them in the wilderness.
SPEAKER_00: I think there's a perspective of saying, let's not read too much into the parables.
SPEAKER_00: Like Jesus uses exaggeration a lot in parables, and so we could break that one down and we could say, What about the 99 in the wilderness?
SPEAKER_00: Where were they?
SPEAKER_00: Why didn't they run off?
SPEAKER_00: I think this is one of these parables that exaggeration is used deliberately by Jesus to make a point about the one, but you kind of break it down and to say, Well, where were the 99?
SPEAKER_00: Well, back in the day, flocks of sheep kind of well, they stayed together anyway.
SPEAKER_00: He might have put them in a pen, there might have been another shepherd that was looking after them.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Jesus doesn't kind of break down exactly what happens to them, but the bigger point of the 99 was that they were already found, they were already with the shepherd, they were being cared for by the shepherd, and so the I guess the practical elements of what actually happened to them don't want to lose the effect of saying hey, these were already loved by the shepherd, uh, and the sheep knew that they were loved.
SPEAKER_00: The bigger point of that one is that one left.
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I made a point in talking about, you know, stri sheep aren't strategic, sheep aren't bright.
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, one sheep can run, and and that what happens for sure.
SPEAKER_00: So the big point of Jesus was that that one, no matter how it got distanced from its flock, was so important.
SPEAKER_00: And I think if you talk about, you know, a lot of sheep, and we think about that in New Zealand, we can look found at hill country or you know, wherever sheep are farmed, there can be uh hundreds or thousands of sheep in sort of one paddock, and you might think, well, one doesn't really matter.
SPEAKER_00: And in the context of farming operations, that's probably true.
SPEAKER_00: I used to be in rural banking, so I understand some of that.
SPEAKER_00: Probably doesn't make a big difference.
SPEAKER_00: And and I think that's the point that Jesus is making in the context of that 100, it was only one percent that went missing.
SPEAKER_00: The shepherd could have gone, uh, well, what's the point?
SPEAKER_00: 99 others.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I got 99 others, I'm still gonna make my money, whatever.
SPEAKER_00: Um, but the point is, no, no, everyone is is important and valuable to Jesus.
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the point in a world where a lot of people do struggle with identity.
SPEAKER_00: That's why it is big for me.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, a lot of people do struggle to understand where do I fit?
SPEAKER_00: Do I fit?
SPEAKER_00: And I think in our culture, you know, I don't want to get down the bad end of it too much, but we still have one of the highest suicide rates for teenagers in the developed world, for example.
SPEAKER_00: And a big part of that in our country is that a lot of people don't feel that they're loved, that they fit, that they belong.
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is the parable for them.
SPEAKER_00: This is the parable where it says it doesn't matter if you're a minority, if you feel like you're on the outside, you are as much belonging as part of this as anybody else.
SPEAKER_00: So I think that is why that parable in particular has a lot of power to it for people that feel like they, you know, they aren't loved or whatever.
SPEAKER_00: No, the father, the father loves you, the father pursues you, the father goes after you, and we can find our identity in that because the father keeps going until he finds you.
SPEAKER_00: Um, so sort of come home.
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm preaching again.
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm loving it.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think, yeah.
SPEAKER_00: But I think that's why that parable is so powerful and that we don't need to get kind of stuck in the in the big detail.
SPEAKER_00: No, where were those she in the wilderness?
SPEAKER_00: I know I mentioned it um when I preached, but it was more the sense of wherever they are, they're secure, yeah, and they're together and they know they're loved.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, great points then parable kind of 101 is is that uh what is the main point?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's try not to dig into all the other details because they don't necessarily transfer, but the key thing was showing God's heart for the one and I think that's the heart of parables.
SPEAKER_00: Parables are stories.
SPEAKER_00: Jesus is often embellishing things to make a bigger point, and so not taking them entirely literally or looking into what the sort of the finer details, and I guess that's what we try to do with parables.
SPEAKER_00: It's like, what's the big point here?
SPEAKER_00: What is Jesus' emphasis here?
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's why the disciples would often say, Hey, explain that to us a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00: We need a little bit more understanding around it.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it's great for us all to be thinking how to read parables well, because we're still in this section of Luke that there's heaps and heaps of them.
SPEAKER_01: And if you do, yeah, it can be confusing if you kind of take the wrong end of the parable.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes Jesus is helpful.
SPEAKER_01: I think in these ones, he he does say, therefore, how much more, or something like that.
SPEAKER_01: He gives a little line at the end which kind of shows the main point.
SPEAKER_01: And in this case, that there's three in a row that kind of help you get the emphasis because it's a similar theme.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Well, let me give you another example, and maybe just planting the seed for a couple of weeks' time.
SPEAKER_00: Two Sundays' time, I'm looking at Luke chapter 16, and it's called the Parable of the Shrewd Manager.
SPEAKER_00: And it's actually one of the hardest parables to interpret in all of scripture.
SPEAKER_00: And over time, it's one of those ones that's kind of been read multiple different ways, and there isn't really one big way that everyone agrees on.
SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm gonna take a perspective on it from my understanding and from how I read it, but it's one of those parables, it's probably a good one to kind of say, hey, there's a point that Jesus is making here, and I think the point is clear, but how he gets there, uh, well, even to this day, a couple of thousand years later, people are like, oh, it could be this way or it could be that way.
SPEAKER_00: Um, so let's get to the heart of what Jesus is saying and not worry too much about um how he gets there.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, lots more parables to explore.
SPEAKER_01: Uh and when it comes to parables, one thing that we talked about is um who gave them these titles?
SPEAKER_01: Because when Jesus teaches, does he say, Right, I'm gonna tell you a story, it's called the parable of the lost coin, or he just gets into it.
SPEAKER_01: So, but in our Bibles, when I look at Luke chapter 15, we've got these nice neat sections with little headers, and we talked about how that can sometimes affect how we read or what we're looking at.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, yeah, what can you explain to us where the titles come from?
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a really good uh thing for us to learn and understand when it comes to reading the Bible.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the Bible is a collection of texts that were gathered under God's direction, and then as people kind of translated them and put them into orderly form, people added those titles.
SPEAKER_00: So in my Bible, as it is for most of us, there are lots of titles and there are three titles in the context of these parables.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but actually, if you take the titles out and if you take the titles out of sort of Luke 15, 16, and 17, you've actually got this long discourse that Jesus is talking.
SPEAKER_00: It's not broken down into nice weeks, you know.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're trying to talk about this parable and next week this parable.
SPEAKER_00: He's actually one solid bit of teaching that Jesus is doing.
SPEAKER_00: And so for our our benefit, people who have sort of put the Bible into book form have added these titles for us.
SPEAKER_00: So they aren't scripture, they aren't what we would say the word of God.
SPEAKER_00: They are just helpful things that people have added, and they differ from Bible to Bible as well, depending on our translation and how we read.
SPEAKER_00: And so that kind of goes to show that people have just added them for the sake of trying to break it down a little bit, perhaps.
SPEAKER_00: Um, but we shouldn't treat them as being scripture.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: So the classic one is the parable of the prodigal son.
SPEAKER_00: I suggested that it should actually be called the parable of the prodigal father, because that's truer to the words prodigal.
SPEAKER_00: Um the prodigal means extravagant and you know, lots of energy with that.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and that's the father.
SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean you could argue that the son was prodigal because he was extravagant in the way that he spent money and the way he wasted his inheritance.
SPEAKER_00: But the point of that parable is the extravagance of the father, I think.
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, the titles can be interesting.
SPEAKER_00: In my Bible, well, I've still lost my Bible, but um in my Bible that I've lost somewhere, I've actually in some of the parables I've crossed it out and said this is more this title.
SPEAKER_00: Should be better for that.
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, you can retitle them, I guess, because yeah, they're not scripture, they're not um, I guess, the words of God.
SPEAKER_01: They've been added similar to verses and chapters, right?
SPEAKER_00: They've put verse numbers all added.
SPEAKER_01: Um, which is helpful when you're telling, you know, asking congregation, hey, turn to uh chapter 15.
SPEAKER_01: It's quite helpful, and I appreciate you know the structure that's been added around it, but sometimes it can get in the way.
SPEAKER_00: They'll give you something for nothing.
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I'm a history guy, I kind of like that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_00: Most of our Bibles are written in two columns when we open our Bibles, it's got you know a left and a right column.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's how it was.
SPEAKER_00: And that was because when the printing press first started to print the Bibles, it was around the time of the development of cathedrals that were always set up with two aisles.
SPEAKER_00: And so the word of God was kind of printed to reflect a cathedral with two lots of pews on each side.
SPEAKER_00: So the columns are just like that because of the cathedrals, sort of predominantly back in the 16th century or somewhere around that sort of time.
SPEAKER_01: Well, there you go.
SPEAKER_01: So it is it okay to have a Bible with only one column.
SPEAKER_00: The point is that's absolutely fine, but yeah, most Bibles get printed like that, just purely because of the way that the world was uh four or five hundred years ago.
SPEAKER_01: So interesting.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I guess aside from the interesting part, we've indicated that with the prodigal son, for example, that title kind of takes on its own life, and it's you know, even in you know, secular spaces, a term like the prodigal son or a prodigal comes home is oh it could be a newspaper headline, it's in the common language, it's almost taken on a meaning of its own, um, but that title was never given to it.
SPEAKER_01: And when Jesus starts it, he says there was a man who had two sons.
SPEAKER_01: And I think the person who's in introduced first is normally meant to be the main character.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Um, how does it change the parable if we look at it through the lens of the father?
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the challenge with that one is for us to look at the father as to the the lavish love of God.
SPEAKER_00: We often think of father and we think of ourselves, perhaps.
SPEAKER_00: For those of that that are fathers, or we think of our own fathers.
SPEAKER_00: And so if we're looking at through the perspective of saying the father is representative in this parable of God, um, then our whole view changes because our focus is not on the son, our focus is on the father, the lavish love, the unprecedented love, the dynamic love, as I kind of said, you know, the love of accepting someone back without that person having to prove themselves, without them really having to say, sorry.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it it's a challenge to think around what does that mean for our faith.
SPEAKER_00: But I think the bigger point of that is that this is a God who welcomes you, who looks for you while you're a long way off.
SPEAKER_00: You might not even be close to him, but he's still looking for you.
SPEAKER_00: And so this lavish love of God is is a prodigal action for us.
SPEAKER_00: And so if we look at that, I think it does change it because we aren't so much talking about prodigals that are coming back into our life.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're thinking about the love of God and how that goes out.
SPEAKER_00: So I think it does reshape the way that we look at it because we're thinking about God more than we're thinking about the son.
SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, even working with young adults or youth, like often the focus is on the prodigal son, someone who's kind of walked away from faith or wild living and parties, and and that we kind of focused there rather than yeah, that and I love how you highlighted the father kind of watching and waiting and and seeing his son a f long way off and running, and that was a cultural taboo, absolutely hitching up the robes and and running in such an undignified but just uh yeah, loving, forgiving, not even a discussion of what had gone wrong, just a celebration.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think again that's one of those parables that we don't want to overread the effect of that because we might think, well, did the sons could have repent?
SPEAKER_00: Did he say sorry?
SPEAKER_00: Did he ask for forgiveness?
SPEAKER_00: I think all of those things are important when we're thinking about our faith, but I think the point of that particular parable and what Jesus was trying to address, particularly as he's talking to the Pharisees and the teachers of the law and other ones that are kind of muttering, he's kind of saying grace is something that why you don't understand.
SPEAKER_00: Um under the law, yeah, there's got to be this transactional coming back and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_00: But under grace, no, the father opens his arms.
SPEAKER_00: And so when we think about who Jesus is actually speaking to, who he's trying to get his message to, how he's trying to show that the kingdom of God is very different to their view of how you might access a kingdom.
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think you know, who Jesus is talking to changes our effect of that.
SPEAKER_01: Um the parable also speaks, I guess, to us personally, and that there's such personal parables.
SPEAKER_01: And I I wonder for you, if we were to go a bit more personal, Grant, what whether it's that parable or the three of them together in chapter 15, what what do they say to you about God?
SPEAKER_01: What even maybe in your preparation this time, what is it reminding you about God?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess my preparation is always tied to who I am as a person.
SPEAKER_00: And I think that idea of grace, that idea of the father looking for the the lost, you can never get too much of that.
SPEAKER_00: You can never stop being impacted by that.
SPEAKER_00: And I think in what I've just explained around the prodigal nature of the lavish love of God, we still today in the church and in society think, yeah, okay, to be accepted by God, we've got to be like this, or we've got to change this, or you know, yeah, you're welcome at church, but you you you need to prove yourself or whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_00: I think there is still a lot of a lot of things that we put on people that God doesn't.
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that one in particular for me, that's kind of why it's close to me, I guess.
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, no, grace grace is such a big thing that we underestimate.
SPEAKER_00: And so who is welcome?
SPEAKER_00: Every one.
SPEAKER_00: Now it's challenging, right, in the world today, because the church of today, well, even in New Zealand right now, we're talking immigration, for example, and it's going to be an issue for us in election year.
SPEAKER_00: Who is welcome?
SPEAKER_00: What does that look like for us as Christians?
SPEAKER_00: What does that look like for us when it affects policy and country and stuff like that?
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, I think there's there's quite big issues to wrestle with, actually.
SPEAKER_00: So for me, I find it incredibly challenging and yet at the same time simple because grace is so overwhelming, and I'm accepted by grace.
SPEAKER_00: I ain't perfect, I'm a sinner.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and yet the father still runs towards me.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can never be too many times reminded and retaught that I don't think you can, because you know, if I'm true to myself like anybody else, motivations in my heart aren't always the kingdom of God.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, I live in a world surrounded by messaging that tries to encourage me to live in different ways that aren't reflected by the kingdom.
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, I'm I I'm no better than anybody else in that regard.
SPEAKER_00: And so that that view of God's running towards me with his robe up, embracing me.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, I can I can never not be affected by that.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I personally found it uh really encouraging as well and sort of met me at a point where I've I've been away, had an amazing time on holiday, um brilliant time, but often holidays change your rhythms and there's lots going on, and uh, you know, in all honesty, I didn't have much time to I didn't make much time to to really spend with God or to read the Bible or to I wasn't at church.
SPEAKER_01: Um so it's feeling a bit more distant, although I'd had a great time with my family, and I know that God is everywhere and he enjoys us having a good time, but I didn't feel like as close or and you can feel a bit guilty about that.
SPEAKER_01: Um so just I guess getting that reminder, that reassurance that it's God who pursues us and it's not He He's just waiting for me to kind of come towards him and then He runs to embrace me.
SPEAKER_01: So um I found that really encouraging just in my first Sunday back at church to hear that.
SPEAKER_01: Um I wonder if Um I know this is close to your heart, and clearly you have a heart like God does for the one for for the lost.
SPEAKER_01: I think that being lost is a really um confusing time, but something that a lot of people experience just it's hard to put a name on exactly why, but sometimes we just feel lost or or marginalized or or like we are the lost sheep.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: If somebody's listening to us today, what would be your encouragement to them from this passage?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I think there's a lot of reasons why we feel lost.
SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, I talked about feeling spiritually far away from God, and we can do that, those of us that have been followers of him for a long time.
SPEAKER_00: But I think there's also a lot of people might be joining with us today, and we all know them, I guess, who feel like they're kind of lost in life, I guess, without purpose.
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a big deal.
SPEAKER_00: Um, without knowing people that feel like they're not loved completely for a whole range of different reasons.
SPEAKER_00: But and I think this is the big challenge of the church is for us to be able to communicate to those people, even if you're joining us today, that uh you aren't.
SPEAKER_00: The father loves you and is pursuing you and wants you to know that uh you know you are completely uh valid.
SPEAKER_00: And there are three words that I have always stuck with me since earlier in my life, and it was value, belonging, and acceptance.
SPEAKER_00: And I often say that every human heart wants to be valued, we want to belong, we want to be accepted, and we try to fill those holes in a range of different ways.
SPEAKER_00: And our world says, you know, be valued by being in the in-crowd, you know, belong and and be accepted by having stuff and being successful and having certificates on our wall.
SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, those three holes can only be filled by God, by the Father.
SPEAKER_00: So when we go looking to fill those with other things, they never 100% for that.
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's often where our kind of sense of belonging falls down.
SPEAKER_00: And so anyone that kind of feels like you don't belong, you don't feel valued, you don't feel accepted, it's only the father that can do that.
SPEAKER_00: So you you've got to open your heart to that because he's pursuing that and he wants to fill those holes in our hearts by his love and by his grace, which means you know, it's all been done for us through Jesus.
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, value, belonging, and acceptance are three big words for me.
SPEAKER_00: And I would say to anyone that feels like they don't have those, allow the spirit that we've been talking about in this series in between these sections in Luke, allow the spirit of God to come into those places and and remind you that you you are valued, you do belong, you are accepted by the Father.
SPEAKER_00: If that is something that you are feeling, if you feel like you do kind of have these gaps in your life, and we'd love to hear from you.
SPEAKER_00: I guess that's the purpose of who we are as a church.
SPEAKER_00: Um, we would love to connect with you.
SPEAKER_00: You can just flick us a message, go to our website, however, there are a whole range of ways to get in touch with us because we just love to be on that journey with people.
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that we have all the answers either, but it means we can pray and care and kind of talk more about that so that you know we can experience more of the the welcome of the father.
SPEAKER_00: I think it's the best thing we can experience.
SPEAKER_00: So we would love to help you with that if that is you.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, Grant, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01: I I've found that really encouraging.
SPEAKER_01: Uh, like I say, I found Sunday encouraging for where I was at.
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I hope that if you're listening, watching, um, you found it interesting, insightful, or or maybe really connects with where you are at in life, or maybe where somebody you know who you care about is at and will help you to encourage them.
SPEAKER_01: So uh thanks again, Grant, for diving deeper into the sermon.
SPEAKER_01: I love getting to do this, and yeah, I I've found I've got a lot more richness uh on top of Sunday from this chat.
SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01: Uh next week we will have no podcast because next or on Friday is Matariki.
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we'll be doing a special service for Matariki.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so there'll be no podcast next week, but we'll be back into Luke on Sunday the 19th, and then the podcast will come out on Wednesday the 22nd.
SPEAKER_01: So we look forward to continuing that journey.
SPEAKER_01: Have a great Matariki, long weekend.
SPEAKER_01: Um uh, whatever you're doing to celebrate that.
SPEAKER_01: We love doing Materiki at Winter.
SPEAKER_01: Um, we know it's a great time to uh, I guess, remember the past, to celebrate the present.
SPEAKER_01: We talked about God celebrating and to look forward in hope to the future.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so until then, may God continue to shape us as we listen, learn, and follow Jesus together.
SPEAKER_01: Matiwa