Navigating Major Career Transitions in Midlife: A Story of Letting Go & Re-Engineering Success

In this episode of Healer Within, host Amy Marohn sits down with Broadway veteran, director, and choreographer Jeffry Denman to discuss the emotional and psychological realities of navigating a major career transition after age 50.

1. The Pre-Pandemic Chapter: Broadway Success & Cultural Pressure

Jeffry shares his background growing up in Buffalo, attending the University at Buffalo for musical theater, and spending decades in New York City building a successful career. Having performed in five Broadway shows, recorded cast albums, and appeared on the Tony Awards and Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade, he reached the upper echelons of the theater industry. However, he reflects on how New York City’s fast-paced environment inherently runs on constant stress and the unrelenting pressure to chase the next gig.

2. The Midlife Shift: Leaving New York for Colorado

When the 2020 pandemic hit, Jeffry and his partner (now wife), Sophie, temporarily relocated, eventually taking a cross-country road trip that brought them to Colorado. Having already accomplished his core theatrical dreams, Jeffry realized he no longer wanted to live in the high-stress environment of New York. The open space, nature, and generosity of spirit in the Denver/Boulder area offered a healthier, more expanded lifestyle for both of them.

3. Overcoming Ego & Re-Engineering Professional Value

Transitioning into a new industry presented a significant psychological and emotional hurdle. Joining an event production company (Imprint) at age 50 in an entry-level "grunt work" role meant stepping away from a career where he was highly recognized into an environment where colleagues had no knowledge of his past achievements.

After two years of navigating the discomfort of losing his former identity and external validation, Jeffrey re-engineered his path:

• Designing His Own Role: With advice from a mentor, Jeffry wrote a custom job description leveraging his unique theatrical skills for corporate events.
• Pitching the Concept: He successfully pitched and created the company's Creative Production department, bringing theatrical storytelling and elevated production value to corporate client experiences.

4. Key Takeaways on Midlife Identity & Success

• Redefining Success: Jeffey’s definition of success shifted from external applause, fame, and professional status to internal peace, personal integrity, and cultivating authentic, loving relationships.
• Release of External Validation: Transitioning away from a industry fueled by public praise required disconnecting his self-worth from his job title.
• Environment & Mindset: Moving from a high-vigilance city to an expansive landscape helped shift his perspective from "proving himself" to simply producing good work while prioritizing personal well-being.

🧠 Re-Engineering Your Next Chapter?

When you step away from a long-held career or high-visibility role, your conscious mind knows it's time for a change—but your nervous system and subconscious programming often cling to old identities, external validation, and high-stress baselines.

True professional pivots don't just require strategy; they require updating the underlying subconscious scripts that keep you tied to who you used to be.

Ready to dismantle old identity blocks and align your subconscious mind with your next major transition?

👉 [Schedule a Private Subconscious Alignment Consultation Today]

👉 Learn more about podcast guest, Jeffry Denman, director, choreographer, writer and performer, by visiting here. 

👉 Learn more about Denman Studios Online Theater Training here. 

 #MidlifeCareerChange #CareerTransition #CorporateBurnout #LifeAfter50 #CareerPivot # #RedefiningSuccess #NextChapter # #SubconsciousAlignment #MindsetShift #Hypnotherapy #MindsetCoaching

If you are walking through a dark season personally or professionally, your soul deserves a quiet space to land. Through hypnosis and metaphysical healing, we regulate the nervous system, resolve inner conflict and hit the reset button energetically so you may return to a space of clarity, peace and authenticity. Learn more about virtual or in person sessions or our Snohomish County, WA support groups and meditation classes at CriticalMindsetGroup.com

Transcript

Navigating Major Career Transitions Mid Life: A Story of Letting Go & Reengineering Success | Healer Within Podcast | Interview of Jeffry Denman | July 27, 2026 

Speaker 1 (00:00:02):

Hello, and welcome back to Healer Within. This is Amy Marohn, a host, hypnotist, and today we're gonna be talking about career transitions after 50. And I've got a special guest with me today, Jeffrey Denman. Welcome, Jeffrey.

Speaker 2 (00:00:19):

Thank you. The only problem is I'm only 32, so I think that might be - Oh, nice, nice. That might be. <Laugh>

Speaker 1 (00:00:27):

You know, if we hadn't grown up in the same hometown, I might - Oh,

Speaker 2 (00:00:30):

You're outing me. You're outing me.

Speaker 1 (00:00:33):

I know. I know. Completely. Nice one. <Laugh> I know. It's really fun to try to get away with that, you know, whenever you can. <Laugh> <laugh> Wonderful. Well, Jeffrey, I, I wanna take this time to learn more about Jeffrey Denman before the pandemic. Tell us about your life, your career, and anything else you wanna sprinkle in there.

Speaker 2 (00:00:58):

Yeah. , well, I grew up in Buffalo as, as you're, as you're well aware. Mm-Hmm. And, , went to the University of Buffalo for musical theater training, , mainly focused on dance. Mm-Hmm. And then after a couple of after college jobs, I moved to New York City and pursued a career on Broadway, off Broadway, basically a, a, a theater professional career. Mm-Hmm. As a, as a performer first, and then I moved into choreography and direction, , playwriting, , just whatever I could do to storytell in the theater - mm-hmm. Was really what I wanted to do. I loved the theater. I feel as though my, my particular set of talents and gifts that, , that I was blessed with, , really was modeled for a theatrical, , lifestyle and career. Mm-Hmm. And I was very happy about the fact that I was accepted into the New York Theater community.

Speaker 2 (00:02:00):

I was successful. I had, , a number of shows that I did on Broadway, a number of shows I did off Broadway, and then a whole host of shows that I did regionally around the country, which is really how an actor in the United States makes their living. You hope to do some Broadway shows. Mm-Hmm. You certainly hope to do some off Broadway, and then you are most likely gonna be doing a whole host of, , of regional theater, , gigs, you know, all across. Mm-Hmm. So I was, I, I, that's exactly what I was doing, and I loved it. , It certainly brought with it, , ups and downs. The highs were very high and the lows were very low. Mm. The, , the Broadway community is a wonderful community and the theater community is a wonderful community, but there are very limited jobs, so you are always, always fighting for the next gig.

Speaker 2 (00:02:57):

Mm. Unless you can get to that 1%. And even then, and I know some friends who were in the 1%, and they were even scratching and clawing for jobs all the time. Mm-Hmm. So, , the pandemic hit, and my then girlfriend at the time, now wife, Sophie, , she and I got out of New York, , for health reasons, , during the pandemic pretty, pretty soon after things started to go bad. Mm-Hmm. And that opened up the door to us, , thinking about where else we could live. Yeah. Could I do theater in other cities? Could she do her career? She's in the functional medicine health space. Mm-Hmm. , could she do that outside? And then we, , started investigating other places to live, and we landed in, , Colorado. Yeah. Which was amazing and surprising. And also, there's a part of it that felt kind of inevitable, if that makes any sense.

Speaker 2 (00:04:04):

Mm-Hmm. But once we got here, it felt inevitable. And now that we've been here for five years - mm-hmm. It's, it has, , we, we love it. We just love it here. It has everything that we want for our lives - mm-hmm. And, , much of what we want for our careers, so.

Speaker 1 (00:04:20):

Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Well, and, and Jeffrey, what, what an incredible journey. Help me understand what it was like to let go of your life in New York. Mm-Hmm. The, the, the music, your community, the lifestyle associated with New York. Yeah. , And, and what was that like letting go of that?

Speaker 2 (00:04:49):

It was a little surprising. , Growing up in Buffalo and becoming aware of Broadway and becoming aware of New York City, I fell in love with New York City before I even got there. Yeah. And then once I got there, I was like, "This is my town." Yeah. "And I'm gonna do everything I can to be successful here and to live the life of a New Yorker. , You know, I waited the 10 years that you're supposed to wait - mm-hmm. Before you can really call yourself a New Yorker. <Laugh> Uh-huh. Uh-Huh. I don't even know if that's true, but that's what I thought. Uh-Huh. Okay. , And I thought that I was always going to live either in New York City or around New York City. Mm-Hmm. You know, the, the classic, you know, you moved to Westchester, you moved to Maplewood, New Jersey or something like that.

Speaker 2 (00:05:39):

Yes. And I could see that that was gonna be my life. , And was really happy about that. Was, was dedicated to that idea. So when Sophie and I started talking about this idea of leaving New York City, it was a, it was really kind of a, a mix. Mm-Hmm. , I had aged up. I mean, that is just the reality of - mm-hmm. Of being in the theater. The roles that you are right for become less and less, and there are, , and, and there are people who've been in the business for years and years and years and who have Tony nominations and all of that, that, that are also vying for those, for those roles. So there was a part of me that felt as though I had done so much of what I wanted to do in New York City. Mm-Hmm. I had done five Broadway shows.

Speaker 2 (00:06:34):

I had been on cast recordings. I had done the, the Thanksgiving Day Parade. Mm-Hmm. I'd been on the Tony Awards. I, you know, there, there were so many things that I was incredibly grateful for, and again, blessed with along my ride in New York City. And Sophie was at a point in her career where she was just starting to build her own business. Mm-Hmm. And Colorado, Denver, and Boulder specifically - mm-hmm. Were such a great hub, an environment for her to build her business - mm-hmm. With like-minded individuals. Yeah. And so there was a part of me that said, "You know, I, I, I had my time in New York. I did so much of what I wanted to do. Are there dreams deferred? Are there things that I didn't get to accomplish? Of course. I mean, that's just life. But there was a part of me that felt like I wanted to give Sophie the best opportunity for her to succeed.

Speaker 2 (00:07:39):

When we were looking at Colorado, I knew that the Denver theater scene was very prominent and very vibrant. Mm-Hmm. And I thought, well, I might be able to find a home there. I might be able to find a theatrical home there and support her and let her kind of fly and do what, what she needed to do. Mm-Hmm. And that's really the energy that I went to Colorado with. Once we got out of New York City - Yeah. It was very, very interesting because I thought I was gonna miss it. I though I was gonna have this constant pull back east. Mm-Hmm. And a very surprising thing happened, , and I, I didn't. Hm. And when I went back to New York for a, a weekend - mm-hmm. , To not only kinda close out our ho - our, our apartment and get all of our stuff moved - Yep.

Speaker 2 (00:08:33):

I, I kind of realized how New York runs on <laugh> stress. It runs on - Yeah. Yes. This energy - Yeah. That pushes and pushes. And it's, I'm not saying that as a bad thing. New York City is, I mean, it is New York City. And, and it always has been New York City. It always has been this place where people came to, , be successful - Yep. To get their dreams going to. Yeah. And basically to make money. Yeah. I mean, that's really what New York was, was founded on. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. And there is an, there is an energy to that, an entrepreneurial energy that is very, very evident. Mm-Hmm. And when you're young - mm-hmm. You can, you take that energy in and you - Yeah. You digest it and you put it back out and you - And you go, go, go. Yeah. And you get older, right?

Speaker 2 (00:09:36):

Yes. And then you have a little bit - Completely. You have a little less tolerance for that kind of stress because you n - Yeah. You realize the, what stress does to your body over time and your mind and your heart. Completely.

Speaker 2 (00:09:51):

And so - Yes. Yeah. So Sophie and I went back to New York and we were kind of amazed because we really thought, "Oh, God, we're really gonna wanna go back home and blah, blah, blah." Yeah. And we didn't. We saw it for what it was, which is an incredible city - mm-hmm. Of, for my, for my part, incredible artistry and, and, and wonderful artists and, you know, creative, , you know, bloom and all of that. Mm-Hmm. And at the same time - mm-hmm. I don't wanna live that way anymore. Yeah. Was the real takeaway. Yeah. Yeah. So -

Speaker 1 (00:10:27):

In- in- incredible experience to have stepped away from that. Yeah. And go back to that. , Almost like a visitor. <Laugh> You, you're doing, like, this quick review of life. Yeah. Do you think because your experience in New York checked so many of the boxes, and because of your. I won't even just say age, but, , how full your journey was - Yeah. You were able to close that, that chapter more easily than, say, if, if the pandemic had hit maybe in your late 30s or early 40s.

Speaker 2 (00:11:04):

Oh, yeah. I, I think about that quite a bit. , Especially for people who were in their 20s - mm-hmm. Who came to New York - Yeah. And were, and were excited about living that life. , My heart kinda went out to them because I was like, "Oh, man, I, I wish you could have seen the New York that I saw when I got there." Yeah. And crazy. And the excitement and the, and the danger and all of it. Yeah. 'Cause I moved to, I moved to New York City in 1994. Uh-Huh. That was, you know, towards the end of, of, you know, the, the, the '70s and '80s and all of. A- and how New York kind of dipped down for a second. It became very dangerous. So it was, it was right at the edge of that, you know, that, that new New York coming in and the, you know, Disney for all its, you know, pros and cons.

Speaker 2 (00:11:57):

Mm-Hmm. Disney's effect on New York City. , All of that. So I was in a, I was in a growing New York City when I got there, and I was very grateful about that. But I do think, to your point, that having been able to realize so many of those dreams - mm-hmm. And hopefully, , be present enough to appreciate them in the moment - mm-hmm. , I, I say hopefully because I certainly know that there were times when I didn't, when I was looking at the next thing. Yeah. And I wasn't even aware of, of, of, of the grandeur of what I was doing. And, and I, I, I don't love that. Yeah. But, you know, when you're in New York, sometimes that is, that is, , where. Or at least I'll, I'll speak for myself. That's where my head space was. Yeah. Was that I had to be looking at the next thing.

Speaker 2 (00:12:48):

But I do think that it was easier - mm-hmm. To walk away from New York City knowing that I had, , I had accomplished so much of what I had set out to do. Yeah. And more, in some cases, things that I never thought I was gonna do, like write a book. Yeah. , or, you know, any, any of that. So.

Speaker 1 (00:13:07):

Com- completely, Jeffrey. Truly amazing. Now, let's fast-forward a little. Yeah. , You moved to Colorado. You're, you're at peace with leaving New York City, and you find yourself in a new, in a new role. Yeah. Tell us about that.

Speaker 2 (00:13:28):

Well, I was. , Sophie and I did a little bit of a, a tour in the fall of nine, of 19. In the fall of 2020. Yeah. I was gonna say 1920. It's gonna age me. , In the fall of 2020, we, we bought a car because we didn't own a car. I, you know,

Speaker 1 (00:13:47):

Because we lived in NewYork City. New York. Yeah. And none of them owned cars. I'm like, "Huh, what would that world be like?" So now you have a set of wheels.

Speaker 2 (00:13:55):

Yeah. We bought a car and, , using Buffalo as a jumping off point because we, we, , we basically spent the majority of the pandemic with Sophie's parents in Florida and then my mom and my family in Buffalo. Right. So using Buffalo as a jumping off point, we drove west. Right. We were both working remotely. I was teaching theater classes online. Sophie was doing her functional medicine health coaching with women online as well. Mm-Hmm. And so I said, "When are we ever going to get the amount of time off - mm-hmm. And the ability - mm-hmm. To see the country? Yeah. Let's get in a car. Yep. Let's pack up as much as we need. Mm-Hmm. And let's just drive. Yeah. And let's just see the country. Mm-Hmm. And so then what we did is we picked out a couple of different, , cities - mm-hmm. Where we either knew people or we maybe had a place to stay, right?

Speaker 2 (00:14:56):

Mm-Hmm. And that's what we did. And, and Denver was on the way out for two weeks. And then we did, like, St. George, Utah, Scottsdale, Arizona, Sedona, Santa Fe, New Mexico, really kind of a Southwest - Yeah. Yeah. Feel. Uh-Huh. And then back through Denver, and then home. And we did, like, Kansas City and St. Louis and - Yes. You know. And we were really kind of shopping around and saying - Yeah. Is there any other place we could live? So Denver hit us pretty prominently. Mm-Hmm. And my friend, Chris Starkey, who is an old friend of mine from way back in the day in New York City, who's tap dancer, singer, actor, , who had done the New York thing for a couple of years. And then he had essentially gone back to where he was from, which was Denver - mm-hmm. To start a family and start his own business.

Speaker 2 (00:15:51):

He was like, "The New York thing is not really for me. I wanna start my own business. I wanna make money." <laugh> Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:15:57):

Yeah, right. And

Speaker 2 (00:15:57):

To get what he did. Yeah, right? Yeah. So he started this, this little production company called Starkey Productions. Mm-Hmm. And then very, very fast-forward, he turned it into, with the help of some other people and by joining with other companies, a multimillion dollar events company called Imprint. Mm-Hmm. So he sees on my Facebook that I'm taking pictures of Denver. This is in the fall of 2020. Oh, uh-huh. And he was like, "Hey, are you out here?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I am. Oh my gosh. We should have lunch." So we have lunch. And he's like, "Are you gonna move out here?" And I'm like, "I don't, I don't know. We're still figuring it out, you know?" And he's like, "Oh, okay. Okay." He's like, "You're gonna move out here." <laugh> So then fast-forward to March of 2021, Sophie and I had decided to get two Airbnbs in two different parts of the Denver metro area - mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (00:16:49):

To kind of try it out and see and just, okay, we'll live, we'll be there for three months. We'll do a month and a half in one area, month and a half in the other, and we'll just see. We'll just meet people. We'll, you know, we're, we were still doing what we were doing in the pandemic, so we were basically paying for our own way. Mm-Hmm. And before we got to the second Airbnb, we already had, , a lease signed on an apartment - Oh. In Denver. And Chris Starkey reached out to me and. Oh, no, I'm sorry. I reached out to him. Mm-Hmm. And I said, "Hey, I'm gonna be here for a couple of months. We're just trying it out. If you ever need a performer or an MC or a director choreographer for any of your events, let me know. I'd love to, I'd love to, I'd love to do that.

Speaker 2 (00:17:34):

I, I, the, the extra money would be great. You'd get me into the Denver scene, et cetera." And he said, "Well, how about a job?" And I said, "Well, what do you mean?" He's like, "Well, we're, you know, we, we furloughed a whole bunch of people during the pandemic, and now we' starting to build back up." This was April 2021. Mm-Hmm. He said, "We're now starting to get some people back in. I would love to get you in on the ground level. You're gonna be basically doing grunt work, but I can get you into the organization, and then we can build you up, and I would love for you to build kind of a creative powerhouse - mm-hmm. For this company." Mm-hmm. And so I said, "Yeah." So I applied and I went through the whole, you know, the, all the rigamarole of, of, of trying to get a job.

Speaker 2 (00:18:19):

They hired me. I started out exactly as he said, base level, , basically events coordination, which is - mm-hmm. , Is a kind of a, a, a ve - a very professional and nice term for you're doing all the work. <Laugh> Right. Sorry. Am I allowed to swear? No,

Speaker 1 (00:18:38):

You are absolutely. I, I have a good sense of the audience being, , pretty open-minded - Yeah. And pretty hippie, so.

Speaker 2 (00:18:48):

And I mean, now, there are event coordinators who work for Imprint right now who are absolutely incredible cracker jack, like - mm-hmm. Incredibly talented people. Mm-Hmm. When you're coming into a company at the age I was, which was - Yeah. 50, 51 - Yep. And you're, and you're kind of dropping into these, this grunt work stuff, it's a bit of a, it's an ego check, right? Oh, gosh. Yes. , You're, you're basically, you're basically coming from an industry where you were at the top of the game. Mm-Hmm. You were, you know, you were, , you were performing and - Yep. Performing with and performing for - mm-hmm. And collaborating with - mm-hmm. People who are at the top echelon - Yeah. Of the theater industry. Completely. And now you're an account coor - or you're an event coordinator.

Speaker 1 (00:19:44):

Yeah. Oh.

Speaker 2 (00:19:45):

And you're, you're. It, it, it, it was a bit of a, it was a bit of a shift. And I - Yeah. Was interested in continuing, not only because Chris had, you know, he had, he had kinda said, "Hey, we should hire this guy. You know, he's talented. He's got a lot to offer." Whether or not that role specifically was what I was gonna be best at and what I was gonna offer the most to imprint with was, was the big question. And so the first year, I kinda bounced around - mm-hmm. A couple of different departments trying to find where my set of skills was going to benefit imprint the most. Mm-Hmm. And ultimately, , after about two years, I was, I was kind of, I was kinda done with it. I was like, "I don't think that this is for me." Mm-hmm. I can see what I can do - mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (00:20:41):

For this company, but I'm not at, I'm not, I, I'm either not being given those responsibilities or something. Mm-Hmm. And so at the time, I, my mentor who was there, the guy who had kinda taught me how imprint goes - mm-hmm. And who also came from the theater - mm-hmm. Gave me some really good advice.

Speaker 1 (00:20:59):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:21:01):

He said, "You know what you can do for this company, right?" I said, "Yeah." And he goes, "And you're not doing it right now." I said, "No." He goes, "So this is what you need to do. You need to write out a job description - Yeah. That is basically you." Mm-hmm. It's everything you can do well. Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. Job description, job description, job description. Mm-Hmm. And then you fill it.

Speaker 1 (00:21:25):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:21:26):

And then you get to tell them, "This is, this is what I wanna do. Mm-Hmm. And if it's not this, then I'm gonna go somewhere else. And it's totally fine. No harm, no foul, no hard feelings." Yeah. "But This is what I wanna be for the company." Yeah. And he was exactly right. Wow. And I created this position, , this department called Creative Production. I had known enough about the event world to see where, where I was needed, where someone with a theatrical background who has a very creative mind and who has, , you know, lots of creative ideas - mm-hmm. When it comes to performance. Mm-Hmm. Where I could fit in and where I could really benefit the company. Mm-Hmm. And, , I pitched that idea, , and they went for it. And so the creative production department was started. I was a department of one for - Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:22:17):

You know, quite a, quite,quite a while. And now, now we're a department of two. <Laugh> But it's, it's great. And it has, it has made staying at imprint meaningful and desirable, , because I get to, I get to basically bring theater - Yeah. To corporate events.

Speaker 1 (00:22:38):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:22:39):

And that is a really, it's a really, it's a really great place to be. And, and corporate events could use some more theater. Yes. , I think. <Laugh> Yes. I don't know if they could use storytelling.

Speaker 1 (00:22:50):

Oh,

Speaker 2 (00:22:51):

Gosh. Some pizzazz and, and,

Speaker 1 (00:22:53):

- Completely. Oh, gosh. What, what an incredible story. So, I mean, but we don't get there overnight, do we? No.

Speaker 1 (00:23:03):

You know? There, there is, , I went through a major career transition due to illness. Mm. , Oh, many years ago. I had to let go of, of my corporate role. And man, boy, , as you're. A- and much like you, right? We, , <laugh> you know, if we, if we burn through our resources, , you, you kinda gotta take what's available. Yeah. And, , but there's nothing like a major life transition like that to, , trigger the ego, , to trigger self-limiting beliefs. Mm. , I, I. The wounded inner child. <Laugh> Right? Yep. Because, , wow, these people don't, don't know you - Yeah. In that role. So can you shed a little light on some of those moments of feeling like, you know, that, that, that two-year time period, what that felt like emotionally, cognitively, mentally? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:24:30):

It was

Speaker 1 (00:24:31):

Hard. 'Cause Those are rough, those are rough years. Yeah. I guess I find that highly relatable.

Speaker 2 (00:24:36):

Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, it was difficult. I won't. I'm not gonna sugarcoat that. Mm-Hmm. , I did not really feel at home. Mm-Hmm. , The, you know, the, the, the consistent paycheck - Yeah. Was such, , was such a huge part of it because now I was, you know, I wa - I was certainly making more money than I was when I was teaching online. Mm-Hmm. , I love teaching, and I love, especially I love teaching, , young creative minds. Yeah. And so I, I, I scaled back down to, like, two students total - mm-hmm. Because you can't really do the day job and teach during the day. Completely. Work. But, , it, it was difficult. And it was 100% connected to my sense of self. Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 2 (00:25:31):

Who I <laugh> I have a famous, , or not famous. I have a, I have a, a quote that I like to do every once in a while. It's like, "Don't you know who I think I am?" <laugh> - Great. And it was part of that. Yeah. It was part of that because in New York, you know, you, you are a product of your environment. Yeah. So when, when I'm in New York, I walk through New York with New York confidence. Yeah. , I, you know, I walk by the theaters that I've performed at. Yeah. I see friends on the street. Or I see someone who saw me in a show and they stop me and they're like, "Oh my God, I loved you in White Christmas." Or, "I saw you in this." And that, that kind of. You, you don't wanna become egotistical about it.

Speaker 2 (00:26:14):

Yeah. But it does give you a sense of, "Oh, this is who I am." Yeah. And it's something that I worked for. Yeah. It's something that I actively wanted. Yeah. I wanted that life. Yeah. I wanted to be recognizable. I wanted people to go, "I know who he is." Yeah. Right? That was, that was something that was important to me. Yeah. So to come to a, you know, to come to a company where I'm now, I'm now working with, , , you know, a, a bunch of people who are in their 20s - Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:26:46):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:26:46):

Who just fresh out of business school or - Yes. Fresh out of their, you know, event, professional school thing. Uh-Huh. And they're just waiting to just take on the world, which I admire. Yeah. And, and then they have zero idea of, of, "Don't you know who I think I am?" Yeah. , And, and so then, then there's this, there's this, like, disconnect where I'm like - Yeah. Wait a minute. , I used to be somebody, right? <Laugh> Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:27:18):

Yeah. Completely.

Speaker 2 (00:27:20):

Yeah. , so there was, , I, I did have to kind of look at that and go, "Well, that was that environment. Yeah. Now you're here. Yeah. So you can sit here and you can be upset about it. You can sit here and mope around and long for the days of, of who you were in New York. But if you want that, you're gonna have to go back to New York." Yeah. Yeah. And if you wanna stay here and do this, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to kind of rebuild - Yeah. Or not even rebuild, but you're going to have to build your reputation here - mm-hmm. And what you do here. Mm-Hmm. And essentially prove yourself here. And that's difficult when you're at a certain age. Wow. Because you get to a place where you're like, "I am done proving myself." Yeah. "I Have proven myself and I know who I am and I know what I do." Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (00:28:12):

So that's kind of a little bit more where I am now.

Speaker 1 (00:28:15):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:28:16):

Is I know that I do good work. I know that I have a lot to offer. I try not to look for outside, , , you know, -

Speaker 1 (00:28:29):

Validation.

Speaker 2 (00:28:30):

Validation. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, it's hard not to. Yeah. It's hard not to because, - Completely. Yeah. It's -

Speaker 1 (00:28:37):

'Cause your world was filled with constant validation. Right. Right? Yeah. And, and that becomes our, our fuel.

Speaker 2 (00:28:45):

Yeah. 100%. Right?

Speaker 1 (00:28:46):

The, the attaboy and, -

Speaker 2 (00:28:49):

Well, and just the rounds of applause and laughter

Speaker 1 (00:28:52):

And - Absolutely. Right. You know? It's -

Speaker 2 (00:28:54):

Right? Yeah. It, but it is a, it is a really good level set. Mm-Hmm. And asking yourself, "Okay, well, who really are you?" Yeah. And that's when I saw that so much of my identity in New York was wrapped up in my career. Yeah. Yeah. To the detriment of a, of relationships and other opportunities because I was so hyper-focused on that that how I appeared in New York - mm-hmm. Was really, really important to me. Mm-Hmm. Probably too important to me. Mm-Hmm. But it wasn't until I got to Denver and saw that, that I was really able to understand that, and then go, "Well, do you really want that? Do you really wanna be that hung up on, on the world's perception of you?" Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't. I didn't. I, I, I, I really desire to do good work. Yeah. And for people to just appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (00:29:59):

But more important. Importantly for them to say, "Well, Jeffrey's a really good person." Yeah. "He's, He's a good guy." Uh-huh. "And I wanna be around him and I wanna be fends with him." Yeah. "Oh Yeah, he also does this other stuff to keep himself busy and to pay the rent." Uh-huh. But that's - Right. Way more important to me now. Mm. , Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:30:18):

Well, and, and so what I am wondering is how, if at all, has your perception of a successful person

Speaker 2 (00:30:34):

Shifted? Mm. Oh, yeah. It has shifted massively. Mm-Hmm. , yeah. I, I consider a successful person, I think what I just talked about, like, I wanna be around that person. Yeah. I wanna spend time with them. I want to, I wanna drop into deep conversation with this person. I wanna trust this person. Yeah. I want to, I wanna love this person.m. That, that is what I think is way more valuable. , The, the group of friends that we have here in Colorado, the, the, the, you know, the, the chosen family - mm-hmm. , That we have here are some of the most real and loving and generous and honest - mm-hmm. People - mm-hmm. That I've ever had the pleasure of being in a friend circle with. Mm-Hmm. And that's not to say that my friends back in New York weren't those things, but becau - I think because of my shift in what's important for me, there, you, there's that kind of law of attraction - mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (00:31:50):

I think where you, you, you shift your, your ask of what you want from yourself - mm-hmm. And you see yourself differently, and thus you're attracting different energies into your world. Yeah. And, , yeah. And I think that I, I, my mom says to Sophie and I, you know, you, you gather such beautiful people around you. Yeah. And, and that means the world. Yeah. Because that is hopefully a, a small slice of a mirror of what we are giving back to them. Yeah. And that there's a reciprocal, , nature to <laugh> the love fest that we love out here. Yeah. You know, and there's, you know, Colorado, there's more space. You know, psychologically - Yeah. Visually, there's just more space. Yeah. And you feel more expanded out here. You feel like you are capable of more out here for some reason. Yeah. Yeah. , Which is really lovely.

Speaker 1 (00:32:47):

So. Well, and it, the way that you described New York, you said there's this kind of stress, the energy of stress, right? People are there to achieve things - Yeah. To climb the ladder in whatever respective roles they play. How then would you. You, you describe Colorado as, as expansive. Are there any other words that come to mind when you tap into the energy of that place?

Speaker 2 (00:33:16):

I think when we came out. No, I don't think. I know. When we came out here, what we were blown away w - by the most - mm-hmm. Was the generosity of spirit of the people who live here.

Speaker 1 (00:33:29):

Yeah. ,

Speaker 2 (00:33:29):

I would say that for the most part, we were met with open arms. Mm-Hmm. , very little judgment about who we were, where we were coming from, you know, what we desired. You know, there, there wasn't. There, there was just this, this kind of open arms, like, "Come on out. We, we'd love to hang with you," kinda, kinda feel. We were offered. There were so many times when people, we would say, "Oh, yeah, we're kinda between living accommodations right now. We, we're staying with a friend and, you know, we have to get out of there in two, you know, two weeks and then we're gonna go over here." And they're like, "Come stay with us. We have a, we have a guest room. We have a basement. You can go, come stay with us." And we're like, "Oh my gosh, that'd be great. You know, what can we give you?" "Nothing.

Speaker 2 (00:34:18):

Come stay with us. You need a place to stay." And it was that kind of energy that just blew us away. Yeah. And so now we've tried to, we've tried to do the same. We've tried to turn that around and s - and when people are like, "Oh, I wonder if I should go out to college." We're like, "Get here. Stay in our guest room. Stay in our Airbnb - Yeah. Wherever you want. Like, just come on out." Mm-hmm. , And it, it, you know, it, I, pay it forward maybe. Yeah. But it, it just feels like it's a, , it, it, it's a, it's a circle that just keeps kind of rolling where you, this person gives to you and then you give to somebody else and - Yes. And it's this wonderful, generous, loving, caring place to be. Not to mention the majesty of the nature that you get to experience, which I think is a huge part of it.

Speaker 2 (00:35:10):

And something that maybe is kind of gone, "Oh, yeah, of course, the mountains." But it's like, no, the mountains. Like, you see those majestic - Yeah. Rocks. Yeah. And it, for me, it reminds me of how big this world is and how small I am. Mm. And it's just this reminder of don't, don't take it so seriously. Yeah. Because look at how big these things are. And these mountains don't give a crap about any of

Speaker 1 (00:35:48):

This. Yeah, completely.

Speaker 2 (00:35:49):

So it's just a great, great reminder. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:35:53):

Perspective. Per- perspective. Yeah. Well, and I'm wondering, how are you living more authentically now because of this career transition and relocation?

Speaker 2 (00:36:12):

Yeah. Interestingly, the authenticity has come from our friend circle. Mm. Because we have people in our life that are extremely authentic and ask that. Mm-Hmm. They don't want you to put anything on. Mm-Hmm. They just want you. Yeah. They want who you are. Yeah. And so when that becomes a safe place to be - Yeah. And you don't feel like you have to guard or hold things back or you don't have to appear a certain way -

Speaker 1 (00:36:56):

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:36:57):

That creates that safe space where you start to go, "Oh, I, I, I guess they, I guess they love me for me." Mm-hmm. When I came out here, I was Jeffrey Denman, Sophie's husband. Oh. You know, that, because everybody that we were meeting met, knew Sophie through the functional medicine health space, and that's how we were meeting. No one knew about my theatrical career. Mm-Hmm. Nobody knew about all of that stuff. And I didn't, I never led with it. And I didn't really want to. I just wanted to be Jeffrey Denman. Yeah. And slowly but surely, people started to learn about it. And, , and then they were like, "Oh my gosh, wait, you, you sing? You dance?" Uh-huh. Like, and it was this discovery and this expansion. And so then they were like, "Well, we have to see you do these things." Yeah. And that was, that was lovely because I really appreciated the fact that they accepted me and they brought me into the circle based on just me.

Speaker 2 (00:37:57):

Yeah. And that had not really. There, there was really no opportunity for that to happen in New York because all of my friends were in the theater. Yeah. All of the connections I were making were in the theater, so it was already preloaded. Yeah. And then you've got all of these kind of expectations and preconceived notions of who you are. Oh, I saw you in a show, so now they've put you up on a pedestal. And it's like, no, I don't wanna be up on a pedestal, that kind of thing. Mm-Hmm. So it was a, a absolutely clean slate - mm-hmm. When we got here. And we were. Both Sophie and I were able to really find ourselves because that's who they were asking us to be. Mm. They were not asking us to be anything other than who we are. Aw. And so the Jeffrey Denman that I am in Colorado is very, very different than the Jeffrey Denman I was in New York.

Speaker 2 (00:38:50):

Uh-Huh. , And yet still the same. Obviously, you're not gonna be - Yeah. A co- completely different person. Yeah. But I just have different. , There, there are things that are just different, , a- as far as the importance or what I f - what I find important, you know?

Speaker 1 (00:39:05):

Yeah. Com- completely. You know, as you describe your, your friend group and, , their generous spirit, I think a lot about, , our hometown of Buffalo. Yeah. I remember my, bringing my son there for the first time, and he said, "Wow." He goes, "It's like a city that isn't a city." <laugh> Oh, which I though was really cute. And he said, "Everybody's so friendly and they're dressed so neatly. And everybody just, you know, some waitress just was hanging out, didn't know us from Adam, and just started engaging in conversation, which is something you rarely see out here in the greater Seattle area. Mm. So do you notice any crossover or c- common traits between people in Colorado and maybe the area we grew up in?

Speaker 2 (00:40:05):

Yeah. I think people will ask me where I'm from. Yeah. They'll find out that I lived in New York for, you know, for 27 years, and then, and they'll say," Are, are you from New York City? Mm-Hmm. I said, "No, I actually grew up in Buffalo." And they're like, "Oh, Buffalo." So basically New York City. And I'm like <laugh>

Speaker 1 (00:40:24):

Buffalo. <Laugh>

Speaker 2 (00:40:25):

It could not be - Yes. More different - Yeah. Than New York City. Yeah. , You know, our, our lovely hometown of Buffalo is way more Midwest. It's way, it is so much more in common with, like, Chicago - Yeah. St. Louis - Yeah. Kansas City than it does New York City. Yes. And, and I love, I love being from Buffalo. Yeah. I think that Buffalo - Me too. Is a wonderful place to grow up. Yeah. , We were allowed to be kids. Yes. We were allowed to be curious and investigate and, you know, at whatever, eight years old, ride our bikes all the way to Showbiz Pizza Place, which - Completely. I think about that now, and I'm like, "I cannot believe our parents allowed us to do that." Yes. Like, and, and they did. They were like, "Yeah, just be careful and don't get hit by a car. See ya." Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:41:18):

And, and that created this kind of, I think, this, this strength of independence in us. Yes. Oh,

Speaker 1 (00:41:26):

Without a double.

Speaker 2 (00:41:26):

That, that is incredibly valuable as you go forward in life. Yeah. That you don't really think about, "Well, that's weird." No, you don't. You're like, "Yeah, we'll just ride our bike and we'll do the thing." Completely. , But I do see the generosity out here. That is. It, it, if, you know, I, I don't know that Colorado's gonna be where I spend all of the rest of my days. Mm-Hmm. But in terms of, like, a bookend of, like, my, my formative years in Buffalo - mm-hmm. And then going to New York and then coming to, - Yeah. You know, Longmont, , , you know, which is outside of Boulder, , about 50 minutes north of Denver. Mm-Hmm. , there is a nice, like. I'm ba - I'm, like, kinda back to my roots. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just saying this to somebody today. Th- th - coming out to Colorado, I did have to kinda peel off the layers of defensiveness and paranoia, not completely successfully, and cynicism of New York City that you need to survive in New York City.

Speaker 2 (00:42:35):

Mm-Hmm. It's like, it's a survival technique. Yeah. , all of those things, or tools, I should say. , You don't necessarily need that out here.

Speaker 1 (00:42:45):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:42:45):

They don't want that. And it's, and they're, they're kinda, they're gonna kinda be like, "Why, why are you so stressed? Like - Yeah. What, what's the deal?" Like, my coworker, Seth Chakowski - Uh-huh. , Who I absolutely love. He grew up in Colorado. He lives in Ohio now with his wife, Beth.m. He works at Imprint. We are the, we are the creative production team.

Speaker 1 (00:43:07):

Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 2 (00:43:08):

Incredibly creative guy. One of the funniest guys I've ever met, and, and one of my dearest friends. And he f - the fir - you know, for the first couple of years when we were <laugh> working together, I'd be getting all, like, all riled up about some event or something or a client or whatever. And he's like, "Dude, why, why are you getting, , so upset about this? This doesn't matter." <laugh>

Speaker 1 (00:43:37):

I'm

Speaker 2 (00:43:37):

Like, "Oh, God, you're right. It really - Right. It doesn't matter. It's - Oh. It's gonna get done. We're gonna finish it. Yeah. It's gonna, it's gonna be accomplished. Why am I. This is not, this is not that deep. I can. And my, my own system is going to thank me - Yes. For not being stressed out. <Laugh>

Speaker 1 (00:43:59):

Right? Yore learning. You

Speaker 2 (00:43:59):

Know, having a heart attack at 56, you know? <Laugh>

Speaker 1 (00:44:03):

I know. Well, you're learning a new way. You know, that place has rewired you. Yeah. Yeah. , in, in the most beautiful way. Yeah. And you and I could talk, I think, for hours on, , the creative juices that flow in Buffalo. Mm. Oh, I, I just look back affectionately - Mm. On my childhood too. I mean, part of it was the era, right? Yeah. Before all the electronics. Yep. The other part was, you know, what my son said. It's a city that's not a city. I mean, we lived in a suburb, but it was safe. Yeah. And you could literally ride your bike from one side to the other in a matter of, you know, under 20 minutes. Yeah. Yep. Right? And, and I do feel like, , because of those advantages, I, I don't. I'd be hard-pressed to think of a close friend I grew up with that didn't play an instrument or wasn't musical - Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:45:04):

Or wasn't, like, insanely creative. Then I say Buffalo is, like, home of the garage bands.

Speaker 2 (00:45:11):

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (00:45:12):

So that just pretty much encapsulates from age maybe 14 to maybe 23. So - Yeah. , I think there's a lot of, of magic to that - Yeah. Town and that era and the way. And, and I also call it Middle America. - Yeah. We had middle class values. Dinner was at 5:30. Everybody had chores. Yep. You know? , We all worked in some capacity. , H - very few of my friends were born with a silver spoon in their mo- mouth, but - Yeah. , You know, and we were extra lucky if our parents were closet hippies <laugh>. Totally. Which I think my, mine were in a lot of ways. Yeah. , and so I, I just feel like growing up in that free and safe of an environment where, , everybody pretty much was middle class, , gave us a, a level of freedom that I think other pockets of the country or communities don't, don't have - Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:46:25):

Where kids are kind of thrust into an adult world too early, you hit the nail on the head, we got to be kids. Yeah. And be imaginative and play and all those things. Yeah. And speaking of wh - that's a great lead-in to, , what I wanna ask you to share next. And that's, tell us about your theater world, because I know you've got a lot brewing.

Speaker 2 (00:46:50):

Well, yeah, I - Give us some highlights. I'm, , I'm. Coming into the Colorado theater community, there are many theater communities around the country. Mm-Hmm. , , obviously, New York is its own thing. Chicago, vibrant theater community. Buffalo has a great theater community. Yeah. DC has a great. St. Louis, Kansas City. They all have their theater environment. Mm-Hmm. And Denver is the same. Denver has a, a wonderful. There's such a wide range of theaters here in the front range. Mm-Hmm. And it was very much a desire of mine to get into the theater community here because I admired it so much. I had friends who are still in the theater community here. Mm-Hmm. Everybody does really good work. Mm-Hmm. And that's very exciting. That's exciting to be a part of. Mm-Hmm. And so between. But the job at Imprint was, you know, it was a little difficult, especially in the first couple years - Sure.

Speaker 2 (00:47:52):

When I was still trying to find my footing - mm-hmm. , Of being able to juggle both. And so I really took a step back. And the theater, the theater opportunities that I had were actually outside of Denver. They were theaters, regional theaters that I had worked at before. Mm-Hmm. A Gunquid Playhouse up in Maine, , Musical Theater West in Long Beach, to mention a couple. And so I kept those, I kept those, , irons in the fire, and I, and I kept working with them. Mm-Hmm. , usually, like, once a year, right? Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. , And then there was a production here at, , the Arvada Center - mm-hmm. Of Yankees. Mm-Hmm. And they lost their choreographer, and the music, the music director, , is a friend of mine, called me up and he said, "Hey, we, we need a choreographer in, like, <laugh> like three weeks.

Speaker 2 (00:48:50):

, We start rehearsals immediately, and we, we need a choreographer." And so, yeah, I said, like, "Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to..." And I love Yankees. It's a great show. Mm-Hmm. And I had done a, a previous production of it before, so I knew what I wanted to do with it. Yeah. And did that. And I met a director here. Her name is Kelly Van Osprey. She's prolific on the front range. She directs all over the place. And so I got to choreograph with her directing, and that led to this past, , November. Mm-Hmm. She was directing a production of Mary Poppins down at the Colorado Fine Arts Center in Colorado Springs. Mm-Hmm. And she said, "Would you come and choreograph Mary Poppins?" And Poppins has been on my list of shows that I've wanted to choreograph for a very, very, very long time. Uh-Huh.

Speaker 2 (00:49:39):

And I said, "100%." So went down to Colorado Springs, choreographed Mary Poppins, and that really. I love that theater. And I love the administration that's there. They're b - they're being led by Chris Shealy, the artistic director, who is just a really wonderful man, and is really doing everything he can to make the Fine Arts Center down there a hub of really, really great theater and great, , community service. Like, doing, doing, you know, , theater for young audiences and educational systems and - Yes. And really trying to become a cultural center of Colorado Springs. And after Poppins, , he and I met, and I basically said to him, I, I said, "I don't care what it is. I don't care if you want me washing dishes in - Uh-huh. You know, in the, in the back of the catering area. I wanna work with you because I believe in what you're doing here.

Speaker 2 (00:50:43):

I believe in your staff. Your staff is incredibly, , generous and caring and creatively, , collaborative - mm-hmm. And open to new ideas." I said, "Please, whatever it is, I would love to work with you." Yeah. Yeah. And so, , he said, "Well, that's funny because we're gonna be doing White Christmas in December." Mm-hmm. And White Christmas is the sh - that was the last show that I did on Broadway. It was, , I played the Danny K roll - Uh-huh. , That I originated, , in the world premiere in subsequent productions. And I've never had, I've never been able to. I've been offered, but it hadn't, hasn't ever worked out. But it's the first time I'm gonna be able to be on the other side of the table for White Christmas, a show that I dearly, dearly love and hold so dear. Mm-Hmm. And so I'm really, really excited about doing that.

Speaker 2 (00:51:36):

That is really fun. , And I, I, I'm so curious as to how it's gonna come out. Yeah. , Because I've got some ideas, but I also like to leave it a little bit free so that I can - Yeah. Find it in the moment. Mm-Hmm. And then funny enough, right after that, I'm gonna go do another production of Poppins at a Gunquot Playhouse in Maine. Oh, my goodness. , So I get to return to that show, which I love. Yeah. And, , and so that's gonna be, that's gonna be this year, which I'm really excited about because it's, it's. Theater is my home. Theater is where my heart is. Mm. It's where I feel like I can do the most good for the world, whatever that, what, you know, whatever that means. Yeah. , You know, try to make people happy is essentially

Speaker 1 (00:52:20):

What I wanna try to do, so. Oh, I, no, and, and it's so interesting. I mean, you, how your whole theater career transitioned. Mm-Hmm. And so, you know, you're, you're peeling away the, the energy of stress of New York City - Mm. And entering in, right? I, I like to call it frequency match. Mm.

Speaker 2 (00:52:44):

I, when - Oh, I like that. ,

Speaker 1 (00:52:47):

Yeah, a free - frequency match, it seems to me, right? I mean, I have a theory, Jeffrey, and that's when we are living in alignment with who we are authentically as a soul. Yeah. Like you said before, it, it follows the rules of the law of attraction. Yeah. And, , things just organically begin to happen.

Speaker 2 (00:53:13):

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:53:15):

It's - Has it occurred to you that you're, the universe is supporting this transition?

Speaker 2 (00:53:22):

Well, when we came out here to Colorado, I was introduced, , a, a dear friend of mine from high school - mm-hmm. , Happened to be living out here. Mm-Hmm. And he's not on Facebook, he's not on Instagram, he's not, he, he just is not on any of the socials. Yeah. And his sister is on Facebook, and she messaged me, and she's like, "Tom lives in Denver." Mm-hmm. And this was, like, the second week that we were here. Uh-Huh. And she's like, "You gotta look him up. Here's his number. Give him a ring, blah, blah, blah." So we got reunited. And, , he took me to this great, his, one of his favorite taco places for margaritas and tacos. And it was just mind-blowing. We had not seen each other in decades. Uh-Huh. And we kind of picked right back where we left off, but also now with, with maturity and experience and, you know, marriages and for him, kids, and all of these things.

Speaker 2 (00:54:24):

So it was really, really wonderful. But the seed of our friendship was still very much there. Yeah. And he introduced me to a word that I had never heard before that I love. And it is my. It is, it is, you know, it is what I hang up, you know, all the time and tell people about. And you may have heard of it. It's called proanoia. Prano. And paranoia - mm-hmm. Is the idea that the universe is conspiring against you. Mm-Hmm. But proanoia is the idea that the universe is conspiring for you. Oh, nice. Uh-Huh. And all you have to do - Yep. Is just follow. Yeah. You don't have to work really hard. I mean, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta put in the time and you gotta do things. Of course, you have to show up. <Laugh> But the l - the, the less you resist it, the idea that even sometimes when you don't get what you think you want - mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (00:55:21):

The universe is still conspiring for you. Yeah. And it is either opening up to a new opportunity that is gonna come later or it, you are dodging a bullet or whatever. Agreed. And so that is really where both Sophie and I try to live every day, that we may not have the greatest day in the world. We may have frustrations with clients. We may have frustrations at work. We may put ourselves out there and get shot down, whatever it is, creatively, collaboratively.

Speaker 2 (00:55:54):

But trying to remember always that it's okay because the universe has your back. Yeah. It's gonna conspire for you. Yeah. You just have to be patient and you just have to not be demanding. Yes. Just let it unfold. Right. Let it roll. Yep. And just, as you said, show up as yourself. Yeah. Honestly, truthfully, and try to deal with the people around you as honestly and truthfully as you can. Thank you. I've certainly had my dark times. I've certainly ma - had the mistakes that I've made in my past, , hurting people, all, all of that stuff. Mm-Hmm. And the only thing that you can really do is say, okay, well, it's Tuesday at 8:04 PM Mountain Time. I'm gonna try to be as good as I can be right now. Yeah. And I'm gonna try to be as honest as I can be right now and show up for my wife, show up for my friends, show up for my coworkers.

Speaker 2 (00:56:47):

Yep. Am I gonna get frustrated? Sure. But if I have that in the back of my mind that this is all trending towards - Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:56:58):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:56:59):

Good. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:57:01):

That's the hope. Yes. And I do also realize that that can be perceived as a very privileged place to, to be viewing the world. There are people who are struggling and who may hear that, you know, pronoia is not something that they can connect to. Mm-Hmm. And so, , I, I certainly don't mean to be insensitive to that. Sure. But, , I, I do think that there is, if you can, if you can find your, your own truth and try to live there - Yeah. , That, that is, that is, I believe, what is being asked of us. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:57:43):

Yeah. I mean, you just, in, in my mind, described the mark of a successful person.

Speaker 2 (00:57:51):

Oh. <Laugh>

Speaker 1 (00:57:53):

Really? I hope

Speaker 2 (00:57:54):

So.

Speaker 1 (00:57:55):

And, and to enjoy the journey. And like you said - Yeah. You know, n - maybe not take things so seriously, , that we're all on, you know, di- different journeys, but experiencing the same turbulence - Yeah. And, , triggers. You know, when you. Now that you've had this remarkable experience of not just career transition, but lifestyle transition - Yeah. , Geographic relocation. And by the way, I love the way that you did that. I love that you gave your, the both you and Sophie gave yourself the, , time and the space to wander. Mm-Hmm. 'Cause Like you said, when do we ever get to do that? Yeah. , and, , you just seized the moment so beautifully and you leaned into what felt right to both of you. And, , it's amazing as a married couple that you bo - <laugh> you both agreed in on your place and aligned because I, I, you know, I'm dealing with so many people in relationship crisis, so - Ah.

Speaker 1 (00:59:09):

Kudos to you both. That speaks to the deep soul connection the two of you have. Yeah. , but if you could give advice to other people who, for whatever reason or circumstance, are having to leave their career calling - Mm. Or their occupation of choice, again, for any reason - Yeah. And had to kinda start all over again, what advice would you give someone?

Speaker 2 (00:59:50):

I mean, I, it, I hope it doesn't sound insensitive because I don't know the situations of, you know, any of those people, and I realize that it can probably be very difficult, but I, I kinda wanna say jump in.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):

Jump in. Right. Like, you've got it. Mm-Hmm. It's going to be okay. There may be bumps, there may be - Yeah. There may be moments of insecurity. There may be moments of true, deep, , , you know, dissatisfaction and be, and more. There, there may be moments when you're faced with, who am I? Yeah. Or who was I? Yeah. , And who am I going to be? Mm-Hmm. But I do think that there are so many, if you're moving to a new place, so many wonderful places to live. Yeah. So many incredible communities of people that you can become a part of - mm-hmm. Who will support and love you and, and, and - Yeah. And want the best for you. Yeah. And there are so many more opportunities that I think. , Let me put it this way. I think we are all, every single person, way more powerful and capable than we give ourselves credit for.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):

Yes. Agreed.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):

I definitely thought that of myself. And I was surprised to learn how much more I could do and how much more I could learn. Yeah. Yeah. And how much more could actually bring me satisfaction. Yes. Where I though theater was the only way I was gonna be able - Yeah. To gain satisfaction. Uh-Huh. But there are so many other avenues. There's so many other things that you can do, create, be. The world can be your oyster. Yeah. But it does require you to hold a mirror up and go, "Okay, well, what is it that I want?" Mm-hmm. And who is it that I wanna be?

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):

That's not always gonna be the easiest road in the beginning. Mm-Hmm. But it does lead to. Well, it's a perfect Colorado hiking metaphor. Uh-Huh. You get on a, you get on a trail. Mm-Hmm. And it's like, "Oh, this is so boring." Or, "God, it's really hot and there's no trees and this really uncomfortable. And I don't, I hate the fact that it's going up so steep and I, I'm out of shape and that we're at altitude." And all of these things that go through your mind in the beginning of a trail. Yeah. And then you come out to this vista.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):

Mm. And you're like, "Oh, man. This is what it was for." Or you get to dive into a, into a lake, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And in the middle of all of the continental divide and you're watching moose on the other side of the, of the lake, you know, and it just surrounded by beauty. Yeah. So the trail might be difficult in the beginning, but it's not going to be. And it's gonna lead to really, really beautiful, amazing, expansive, , views and opportunities. And, , yeah, that's, I think that would be my. Don't be scared, is what I should have said, period. <Laugh>

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):

That's right. And find some adventure. Yeah. Go for it. I, I love that. That's so beautiful. And the, the last question I'll ask, and I, and I think it's a really, , powerful question, especially, again, looking at the before and after Jeffrey Denman. , What are now, what do you consider your non-negotiables?

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):

Ooh. , Proximity to my wife. Mm-Hmm. That is while we will, while we will. You know, I may go off and put up a show somewhere. Mm-Hmm. , in the past - mm-hmm. I would've gone and been away for weeks on end. Mm-Hmm. You know? , Without my partner at the time or whatever girlfriend, you know - mm-hmm. , Without a lot of, without a lot of concern about that, because I, again, I was more focused on my career. I was like, "No, I gotta go out there. I gotta do the thing. I'm gonna be away for nine weeks. Sorry." You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Now that is, that's, that is not, that's not what we do. Mm-Hmm. And we will. If we, if we have to spend a week away from each other - mm-hmm. Okay, maybe. , But we will do anything and everything to make that time span be much less.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):

, That's one. Okay. , it's. There's a. Let me see if I can put it into words, because it's not fully formed yet. It's kind of like cake batter right now, but - <laugh> That's okay. It's the idea of, of c- creative collaboration. Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):

Where I think in the past, because of a certain sense of, , imposter syndrome - mm-hmm. That I wasn't always the best advocate for my ideas. Mm. I could present an idea that I thought was really good. Mm-Hmm. But it could very easily be knocked over by someone who I determined, for whatever reason - mm-hmm. To be more qualified than me, or more creative than me, or whatever. Mm-Hmm. Okay. Yeah. So now, I f - I just feel like I have a stronger sense of, of, no, this is a good idea. Mm-Hmm. And we're gonna, we're gonna develop this idea first. Yeah. Yeah. , We're not gonna, you know. And, and yes, I'm open to other supporting ideas to this concept. Mm-Hmm. But I'm not gonna just trash the concept just because you particularly don't like it. Yeah. I believe in this concept. Let's play this out, and then let's learn that it's the wrong concept.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):

Yeah. So, yeah. It, it would, it's - Yeah. You'll take a risk. It's, it's a little. Yeah. It's a little bit of. There's some. My, my wife is into this, , this. It, it's, it's a, it's a personality, - Profile. Trait - Yeah. Thing. I can't remember the name of it. She's, if she listens to this, she's gonna be like, "I told you this 500 times."

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):

It's like an invitory, an invinci - Yeah. For your assessment.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):

Uh-Huh. Yeah. And, and basically one of the, one of the tenets is that there are three parts to your life. Mm-Hmm. There's your, you know, you're in your 20s and you're, you b - you barely know anything and you're just - Yeah. Foiling around trying to figure out what the hell's going on. Yeah. And then you move into this, like, s - mid - 30s, 40s where you're now someone that people are listening to. Yeah. You've gained experience, you've learned things. And then when you get into your 50s, you move into the kind of the, the, the wisdom area of your life. Yeah. Uh-Huh. And you become kind of like the sage where people are coming to you for advice. And peop - and I really feel like I'm in that part of my life - Yeah. Yeah. In a lot of ways. Yeah. Our friends, it blew our minds when our friends who, some of them who were having some, , relationship trouble, , were coming to Sophie and I for relationship <laugh> advice.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):

And I looked at Sophie, I'm like, "Do they know who they're asking about relationship advice?" <laugh> Because Sophie and I have been, we've been through a lot. We have had to fight for our relationship. We, it was not always a foregone conclusion. It was not some sort of princessy princess or a prince and princess - Yeah. You know, happily ever after. Yeah. We had to really work at it. Yeah. And I think what we're being reflected with is people see that. Yeah. They're like, oh, they've done the work. They - Yes. They, they had to, like, blow up their relationship and then put it back together. Yeah. And, and so I was like, "Well, you know what? Maybe then rather than, like, rolling our eyes at this idea, maybe we need to lean into this. Maybe we need to step into this, this area and, and offer them advice.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):

We may not be right for them. Our, our, our advice might not be right for them, but we can at least offer our experience." Yeah. And so we've taken that on to a certain extent. And I'm at least open to it. Right. And I don't think of myself as being, you know, the worst person to ask relationship advice for,

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):

You know? Well, and, and, and I liken this season in our 50s, Jeffrey. I, I call it, you know, the stage of generativity. Ooh. Where we're wanting to give back. Yeah. , and that, for me, , is such a wonderful space to, a soft space to land. Yeah. , because it's, it's a space that, , allows our paternal or maternal energies to come forth. Yeah. , We can be more vulnerable and emotionally accessible because, , boy, we've walked through so m - the eye of so many storms by this juncture of our life. And, , in a sense, there really isn't anything to prove. And we can laugh at our humanness. Yeah. And, , because of that lightness, it's an invitation for people around us to, , live out loud and be vocal about - Yeah. Just be comfortable in their own skin. Yeah. And it, and it reminds me of you and I had had an earlier conversation, and I said, , "Jeffrey, did you have a mentor in New York?

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):

Somebody who really, you know, took you under their wings and scooped you up?" And you said, "No. Sadly, no." Right? But when you think about it, I mean, the whole philosophy behind what I, what I built in my business, and it sounds so much like we, , we connect deeply on this, is like I'm, I want to bring forth an experience for others, the same experience I would've wanted - Yeah. With my darkest hour. And for you, I mean, you have such an incredible heart and generous spirit. It feels like you wanna take everything that you've learned and make it maybe not such a steep and harsh learning curve - Yeah. For those you are mentoring. And, , again, what a beautiful space to be in. I think it's an age thing. It's a part of our journey thing. , But, you know, I think we earned that, too, because - Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:18):

We lived in the stress of the corporate reality, or in your case, the performance - Yeah. Arena all the time. And now it's just, it feels good to kinda be able to breathe a little bit - Yeah. Deeper and not ev - have everything be so, , urgent and life or death or - Yeah. Will I get this part or not? You can kinda let go of that and really, truly enjoy the creative part of that - Yeah. Without, you know, that urgent, you know, stress energy. Yeah. So it's amazing. 100%. Well, Jeffrey, if people wanted to find you online, like your bio, your shows, , where, how do they do that?

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):

My website is jeffreydenman.com. Okay. , It is undergoing a little bit of construction - Sure. , Most recently. Yeah. , but I'm, I'm definitely on Instagram. Okay. , Just my name.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):

I love your Instagram. I follow you and love you.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):

<Laugh> Oh, yeah. My - That's great. My morning reminders, my, my, my, my, my hopeful way of adding a little bit of something good into social media rather than -

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):

I love

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):

It. Something even more horrible than what's al- already out there. But, , I do post. Yeah, and I do post about shows and - Yeah. Sometimes I post about work. I try to keep it a little bit. I try to keep it as light as I can on socials. Sure. Just because it's, , you know, it is such a place for a lot of, , I don't know, chaos and, and -

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):

Yeah. Just - For

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):

Sure. You know. I don't have

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):

To explain, but, - I know. It is. It's, yeah. It's, it's a lot. Yeah. We'll just, we'll just say. Well, and so, J- Jeffrey, if it's okay with you, , I'll drop some links in the show notes. And then if you'll do me a favor and I'll try to remember, , as shows come up, please send me links that I can also drop into the, to the show notes, even if it's a little bit later on, because people find these podcasts and listen to them sometimes way after the fact, and it would just - Oh, great. Really cool to stay current. And I'm hoping, fingers crossed, I know your life's gonna get really busy. But Jeffrey, I would absolutely love to have you on again - Mm. Before each of your shows, so we can talk a little bit about the healing properties of, of creativity. Oh, I would love that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:58):

And what you're learning about yourself through, through directing. Yeah. And, , share with us a little bit more about the synopsis of the show - Yeah. And the creative talent. And, , again, by then, I can drop, , the link in there so people can get tickets or my, my big goal is to fly out and see one of your shows and then - Oh my

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):

God, I would love that. The future.

Speaker 1 (01:14:24):

It'd be so great. Well, I have such fond memories of you in our child, in our respective chil- childhood years of everybody was like, "Oh, Jeffrey danced." <laugh> "He can dance, he can sing, he can act, and he's so sweet. He's so nice." Oh,

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):

That's so nice to

Speaker 1 (01:14:42):

Hear. And that was, like, the reputation I grew up with around, you know, around you. And, , just, you know, highly respected and revered for your gifts, but also because you were just always such a good soul. Wow. You know, quick to, quick to laugh, great sense of humor. You brought a lot of joy and energy to the shows. And, , just, you know, like, your core values and moral compass. Everything was just so dialed in from such a young age,

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):

So. Thank you. I really appreciate that. And, and all kudos to my parents - Oh,

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):

My goodness.

Speaker 2 (01:15:22):

, For, you know, for - So beautiful. For bringing me up with those ideals and also for l- l- like we said before, letting me be a kid - Yeah. First and foremost. And. , And, and, and really, like, lock into that joy. Yeah. , I think that's. Joy is what I. If we wanna talk about non-negotiables, that is one of my non-negotiables that I'm not gonna give up joy. I, I, I'm gonna try to find it everywhere I can - Yeah. Because life is too short, so. Mm.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):

So beautifully articulated. Jeffrey Denman, thank you so much for sharing - Thank you. Your, your journey about career changes after 50. And boy, that was such an uplifting conversation with an am - a- amazing amount of insights - Oh, thank you. Personally and professionally. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):

Well, you asked great questions, so - Oh, thank you

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):

All. You're great. You have a, you're, you have a fascinating life, Jeffrey. So it's been, it's been a pleasure and it's been very easy conversation. So thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):

Thank you.