Curiosity, Kindness and Storytelling with Jodi Rodgers

In this episode, Krystle speaks with Jodi Rodgers about her new book Unique: What autism can teach us about difference, connection and belonging – which Jodi describes as ‘a love letter to autism’. In her book, Jodi reflects on her experiences with autistic and neurodivergent people, and what these experiences have illuminated regarding human connection, empathy and understanding. Additionally, Jodi demystifies common misunderstandings concerning autism, explaining the relevant cognitive science, all the while doing so by way of engaging storytelling in accessible language.

About Jodi Rodgers:

Jodi Rodgers is a qualified sexologist, counsellor, and special education teacher. She featured as the relationship counsellor on Love on the Spectrum, a docuseries following young adults on the autism spectrum produced by Northern Pictures for ABC TV. The show was picked up by Netflix and gained an international following. Jodi is credited with contributing to the show’s warmth and authenticity, one New York Times journalist expressing that ‘We could all do with a Jodi in our lives.’ Jodi's private practice Birds and Bees provides relationship and sexuality counselling that is accessible for everyone.

Unique is also available as an audiobook read by Jodi and is published outside of AU / NZ under How to Find a Four-Leaf Clover: What Autism Can Teach Us About Difference, Connection, and Belonging.

About Krystle Marie:

Krystle Marie is a mixed, neurodivergent sort-of writer based in Meanjin. She’s thrilled to be interning with SWN as a soon-to-be graduate of UQ’s Master of Writing, Editing and Publishing program. She's currently into Japanese language immersion. She's always into noise-cancelling headphones.

Unique is available in good book stores and online.

Find Jodi:

Instagram

Facebook

The Science Write Now (SWN) Podcast is for people who love science and the arts. If you’re interested in learning more about great books, plays, and films; writing, research or editing; the lives of scientists; and creative insights into contemporary science; then you’ve come to the right place!

The SWN Podcast is hosted by Amanda Niehaus and Jessica White and produced by Taylor Mitchell with funding from the Australia Council for the Arts.
Listen on-the-go on Google, Apple and Spotify now!

You can also find and follow us online - on Twitter - on Instagram - and on Facebook.
Our opening song is 'Balmain' by Pure Milk: https://www.triplejunearthed.com/artist/pure-milk.html

Read the transcript here.

Notes: When Krystle mentions ‘this’ during the conversation, she's referring to her hardcopy of Unique. Krystle also jokes about nodding while Jodi spoke at the Unique book tour event held in Brisbane’s Avid Reader book store. She is alluding to a passage in the book where ‘nodding’ is explained as acquired body language.

Transcript

(audio fades in)

Krystle Marie  6:56  
I imagine it's, you're pretty packed at the moment. 

Jodi Rodgers  6:59  
Yeah. Good that we're together. 

Krystle Marie  7:03  
Yes - no, I'm excited and nervous. So... (laughs)

Jodi Rodgers  7:06  
(Laughs)

Krystle Marie  7:07  
I've been I've been bouncing my leg underneath the table. So, I'm shuffling around. That's what I'm doing. 

Jodi Rodgers  7:14  
All, good. 

Krystle Marie  7:15  
Okay, so I'll do the intro. Science Write Now is a free online magazine dedicated to creativity inspired by science. We believe in accessibility, connectivity, inspiration and collaboration. So, I'd first like to acknowledge the Jagera people and Turrbal people as the traditional custodians of Meanjin, the land from which we record today. I pay my respects to Jagera, and Turrbal elders past, present, and emerging. So, my name is Krystle. I'm guest-hosting the Science Write Now podcast for the next little bit. And we're joined today by Jodi Rodgers. She's a qualified sexologist, counsellor, and special education teacher. You might also know her as the relationship consultant on Love on the Spectrum. And I do have to hold this up [Krystle holds up Jodi's book 'Unique']. I don't actually know whether this is going out to video or not. But I love this. I love it so much. I think it's a really it's such a cute book to look at, as well (laughs). I mention that because I just moved and I've started unpacking all of my books. 

Jodi Rodgers  8:38  
Yeah.

Krystle Marie  8:39  
And seeing them on the shelf somewhere new doesn't look right to me. And I've started thinking more aesthetically about what I've got on the shelf. And I really like having this on the shelf (laughs). It's a nice pop of colour.

Jodi Rodgers  8:54  
Oh, that makes me happy. 

Krystle Marie  8:56  
Yeah. Um, I also want to mention that, as a person who's neurodivergent, I so appreciated this book. It was, I mean, there was a lot of there was a lot of smiles to myself reading it. There were a lot of teary moments. I think... I found it very validating. And as you'd said, another reader on the spectrum had said that they felt seen. 

Jodi Rodgers  9:33  
Yes. 

Krystle Marie  9:34  
Yeah. So I, I think this is such an amazing insight into neurodivergence. And I did feel like these were my stories. Every every story resonated with me and, you know, a personal experience. If not mine, maybe a friend of mine, who is also autistic, so... Um, I'm very grateful that this exists. And I'm excited for you as well, because I do think this book is very, for lack of a better term, it is unique in that it - 

Jodi Rodgers  10:15  
(Laughs)

Krystle Marie  10:15  
 - does bridge the gap, I think between a lot of books about autism - and particularly written from a neurotypical perspective. And I do want to know, I (laughs)  I need to know - so, you said in the, I'm pretty sure it was the Acknowledgments, that this was your Bruce Springsteen, there was a 'Bruce Springsteen moment', 

Jodi Rodgers  10:41  
Yeah -

Krystle Marie  10:41  
'Dancing in The Dark'. Can you tell me about -

Jodi Rodgers  10:45  
Yeah - 

Krystle Marie  10:45  
- what that means? 

Jodi Rodgers  10:46  
Well, I, you know, I'm a clinician and therapist. And so my whole life has been listening to people and being, you know, one on one in a clinical environment with people, not my whole life, the last few years have been more clinical. And so when I was approached to write the book, I originally said I wasn't a writer, because it just wasn't something that I naturally thought, 'Oh, yes, I'll write a book!' So, there was moments in writing where I was really overwhelmed and quite lost, and didn't think that I had anything to say, or was worried about what I was saying. And I was speaking to a neighbour one day and just said to him, I have nothing left or there's nothing left within me. And he said to me, 'Oh, you need to do a Bruce Springsteen.'  And then he said to me, that Bruce Springsteen had when he wrote an album called Born in the USA, which was, you know, one of his biggest albums, apparently, he took the 80 songs to the producers, they whittled it down to 12. And then they said to him, there's no hit here. There's nothing, you know, you don't have any hit on this album. I mean, they ended up being all from his hits. But that day, he went back and wrote the song. Like, on that very day that they said, 'You don't have a hit', out of kind of frustration, I think more than anything else, he wrote 'Dancing in the Dark'. And when my friend next door, told me this, I just started listening to the song. And there's the line in it - 'I'm sick of sitting around here trying to write this book' and... Buy it, it became an ear worm for me, it was like this repetitive song that just kept going round and round. And whenever I'd get frustrated with myself in the writing process, that line kept on coming up, but because of the the song and the way it sort of you know it, it's quite energising day. Yeah, I acknowledge Bruce Springsteen, because that song actually got me through (laughs). And I really got stuck. 

Krystle Marie  12:50  
(Laughing) That's great. I did hear that that song - that song wasn't intended - it was very sort of ad hoc. It wasn't, you know, he sort of wrote that, like a scribble, basically. And that's what's so amazing about it is that it became the hit that it did, and he barely gave it a second thought. Phil Collins has a similar song... what was his big one? The one with the big drum solo in it? Coming in the, you know, 'I can feel it coming in the air tonight'. 

Jodi Rodgers  13:21  
Yeah.

Krystle Marie  13:21  
That was... apparently, that was the same story. It was, he sort of, someone asked him, Well, what does it mean? It's such a deep, profound song. And he's like, 'I dunno, I just wrote it. They don't mean anything. It's nonsense' (laughs). And it's one of his biggest hits... 

Jodi Rodgers  13:35  
Well, one of the things I realised, too, in writing that... and the original publishers in the US, said, I'd started trying to write very, in a very structured way. And then I sent them, just, then I started sending them some random memories that I had about engaging with people in the past and things, and they said to me, 'Just do whatever - write whatever you want to write, just go with it.' And so at that point, I gave myself no restriction and no boundary. And so I just started writing. And then it was later in the process that the books started getting put into, you know, sort of different, you know, different structure. But yeah, originally, I just would go 'bang', there was a memory of something that happened and I just let it come flowing out. And I say, Krystle, the book's an upside down book - this is how I explain it to people because, originally, as a sexologist, I thought 'Oh, I'll write about, you know, something to do with sensuality and sexuality'. And then I realised that for me to try and explain, you know, the neurological difference of understanding sensuality, I had to talk about sensory processing! And if I start talking about something about 'sensory processing', I thought, 'Who even understands about sensory processing?!' So, it ended up being a book... It was never, ever going to be a 'guide to autism' because that isn't my place. And it's not my story. And autistic people know what, you know, that is. But what it came to being is what a lifetime of hanging out with people, autistic people particularly, had actually taught me about everybody else, and about how we all, you know, how we create connections with other people. It was through listening to people who perceive things from a different point of view, and a different perspective that I believe I've got a far greater understanding of all of our relationships.

Krystle Marie  15:38  
I totally agree with you. Actually, the thing, something else that I got from this book, it's not - I didn't necessarily have any expectations - I sort of went into it... I mean, I was already I was already familiar with your work from Love on the Spectrum. And my story with Love on the Spectrum is that... I think I watched it back it was. So, it was produced in 2020 - roundabout, then? 

Jodi Rodgers  16:07  
Yeah, the first - the very first series that came out on the ABC was in 2019. That was it - that was on the ABC, and then then it got picked up by Netflix in 2020. And then the second season came in in 2020, in Australia as well.

Krystle Marie  16:26  
Yeah, I think I actually... I actually think I watched it on ABC iView before it got to Netflix. 

Jodi Rodgers  16:34  
Yes.

Krystle Marie  16:35  
Because it was just such a novel option. And I remember watching it and being so... I find it very hard to follow TV series. I sort of drop off after one or two episodes unless there's something happening that I'm invested in, or it's maybe somehow relevant to my special interest at the time. It's very hard to retain my attention. But this - I was just hooked immediately. And it was because I just felt some connection with the individuals on the show. And I couldn't really understand why. And, and I remember I had a moment that I said to my partner at the time, and he's neurotypical... I said, 'Well, I'm just saying and thinking what we're all saying and thinking just without a filter?' and he kind of gave me this look like, 'What do you mean?' Like he, you know, he looked at me a bit strange. And this was way before I'd ever sought out any sort of diagnostic... This was way before my diagnostic quest. And then maybe a little over a year later, I was actually clinically diagnosed with ASD and ADHD - 

Jodi Rodgers  17:52  
Mmm.

Krystle Marie  17:52  
- and that just made so much sense. And this was whenI was, I was 34 - 

Jodi Rodgers  18:00  
Yeah.

Krystle Marie  18:00  
- I'm 36 now, and, because being a girl, as you know, it's just, you know, it's so difficult. And as you said, the other day - I went and saw you at Avid Reader. 

Jodi Rodgers  18:13  
I know. (laughs)

Krystle Marie  18:13  
(laughs) I noticed I was giving you the nods. And I'm like, 'Are these MY nods?' But, yeah, you were saying that - you were speaking quite emphatically about how hard it is. Just generally speaking, for anyone to sort of access the help - the people that need it the most - to access these services. There was a fellow there that was talking about the NDIS. And you know, just how ludicrous it is to, to have all of these, sort of, hurdles in place, and so I do acknowledge that I'm quite privileged that I was able, sort of, with the help of my mum to access that diagnostic process. And something else you mentioned at that talk was that for some people, that's, sort of, just that official diagnosis is kind of like, a 'Ah, yes, that makes sense. Now, I can sort of, you know, move on with that  - I can make sense of my life now.' And, you know, it gave me a better sense of identity.

Jodi Rodgers  19:26  
Yeah, well, that's exactly right. For some people, it gives clarity to some people, particularly when they may have had a lifetime just thinking to themselves, 'I don't quite feel like I am the same as everybody else' or 'I feel different' or, you know, somebody's been having this perplexing thought in their brain - to actually have somebody say, 'Oh, this is the this is it. It's because you neurology is different;  so, of course you're different.' Of course you're perceiving that - because that's the reality. And I think for some people that has a deep sense of relief to it. There's some people that I spend time with crystal that when they get the diagnosis, they also go through a period of grief. And it's not grieving the diagnosis, it's, it's sometimes grieving a past, where they have had to, you know, it's like reliving memories of a past where they just WISH that they had known across that time period. So yeah, it's interesting how, but, yeah, for other people who, you know, there's a lot of people that are self-identifying, and they are self-identifying, because there is such a massive economic barrier to accessing diagnosis. AND we still don't have a lot of people who have really understood -particularly what we're talking about - adult female diagnosis. So, there's a lot of people that don't have access to highly qualified practitioners who can do that assessment in a way that matches the individual, matches the individual's culture, or the gender of that person. So we still have a long way to go. 

Krystle Marie  21:16  
Oh, absolutely. I mean, part of the reason I sought it out was because it was, sort of, interfering with how I wanted to... how I wanted to live my life. I was starting to, you know, there were little things like, I was falling asleep when I was trying to read or... I knew that I was just tired all the time. I just get, I get so tired. And also being a being a writing student, you need to read, and you need the energy! You know, you need to be able to, to assimilate a lot of information. And, you know, it was because it was interfering with, you know, what did make me happy and what I was motivated to do, that I felt, you know, sort of a cost out way, but this was before I think a lot of self-diagnosis was prevalent. And I actually think that it is completely self-valid if if that's how you feel best describes your experience and I 100% think that that's valid. 

Jodi Rodgers  22:29  
Yep.

Krystle Marie  22:29  
So... I did want to talk about... Actually, before I forget, I do need to say - this [referring to Jodi's book Unique] is an audiobook as well. 

Jodi Rodgers  22:39  
Yes. 

Krystle Marie  22:40  
When I - before I got my hands on the hard copy - I got the audiobook (laughs) because when I found out it was read by you, I just thought, 'Oh no, that's too good' -

Jodi Rodgers  22:49  
(laughing)

Krystle Marie  22:49  
- I love when the author reads the book - I love Stephen Fry - so when I found out... so, your voice is like a warm hug -

Jodi Rodgers  23:00  
Aww (laughing)

Krystle Marie  23:02  
- it's so lovely and comforting and engaging. I might be mistaken but you're originally from Alstonville? Or 'Birds and Bees' is based in Alstonville?

Jodi Rodgers  23:14  
Yeah. My rooms that I work out of are in northern New South Wales in Alstonville - but I'm only there two days a week, sometimes only a couple of weeks. I grew up in Tasmania - 

Krystle Marie  23:24  
Oh, okay... 

Jodi Rodgers  23:27  
And then did a lot of moving in my adult years around, sort of, different places. But yeah, I have practice in northern New South Wales. And I also do a lot of travel for practice as well, you know, I've worked in the Northern Territory, or - really anywhere where people need the support and help -I'll go to. 

Krystle Marie  23:47  
Yeah.

Jodi Rodgers  23:48  
But I really appreciate your saying that because, you know, I think you might have read in the book or listened in the book - one of the reasons, they said to me, 'No, Jodi - you have to read this book' is because there's a line in the book saying 'I hate my voice'. And I'd always had self esteem issues around my voice, because it is a very broad Australian accent. But it has been so interesting, Krystle, that since I have been on the television, or when people hearing me, and doing lots of podcasts and interviews, how many people say to me, 'But your voice has so much expression in it!' 

Krystle Marie  24:29  
Yeah -

Jodi Rodgers  24:29  
So, I've now - during this process - I've now started saying to myself, 'This isn't too bad -

Krystle Marie  24:38  
(laughs)

Jodi Rodgers  24:38  
- it's an OK voice.' But the other thing I found difficult too is that when I read out loud, my brain works very, very quickly. And it works quickly even in conversation. So, sometimes I have to apologise to people I'm with because I'll say, I'll be saying a sentence and then bang - halfway through the sentence, I'll go on to something completely different, which is very hard for people with auditory processing to keep (laughs) -

Krystle Marie  25:07  
(laughs) 

Jodi Rodgers  25:07  
- to keep up with - always apologising. But the other thing I do is, when I read out loud, I sometimes make words up -

Krystle Marie  25:16  
Oh?

Jodi Rodgers  25:16  
- even with a book that I have completely written by myself, I can look at a word, and I'll change the word that I'm looking at. Or I might drop in another word, rather than keeping what I'm seeing, it's like my brain reads quicker than what I'm actually seeing on the page. So, it was a really BIG learning curve for me to be a person that doesn't really like the sound of my own voice, and also has some difficulties with reading out loud, to go into a studio and read for days and days...

Krystle Marie  25:51  
Yeah - I've always been fascinated by that process, and voice acting, and that sort of thing, because I can only imagine it's quite, it's quite strenuous at times.

Jodi Rodgers  26:04  
Yeah, it's a definitely a skill. People who do definitely have an incredible skill to be able to read out loud for long periods of time.

Krystle Marie  26:14  
Mmm, I'm glad you've come to, sort of, warm to the sound of your own voice (smiling) - 

Jodi Rodgers  26:19  
(laughing) 

Krystle Marie  26:19  
- because I feel like that self-acceptance is something that you endorse a lot. With, you know, the people that, that you consult with, I suppose. 

Jodi Rodgers  26:29  
Yes.

Krystle Marie  26:31  
You sort of... because what you might find a bit cringey or even sort of, you know, borderline hate about yourself, someone else is going to find that just so endearing or so comforting. And so, it's so funny that you mentioned that as something that, you know, you've sort of come to, to realise yourself in this process, whereas I'm sure it's something that you've sort of been preaching up until now with other people.

Jodi Rodgers  27:01  
Yeah. And I write about that in the book, where, we are our own worst enemies. And we say the most negative things about ourselves. And then we think other people think that about us, but it's all - it's rarely true that people are thinking negative thoughts about us, they're usually thinking positive, it's just us that do it to ourselves. So yeah, I'm gonna start practising what I preach (laughing)

Krystle Marie  27:27  
(laughing) That does kind of, I mean, I think this does relate to something, too, that I thought was maybe the common thread here... was that something that you encourage so much, and something that I think - if you can take one thing away from this book is that - just, it's to be curious, just be curious, instead of sort of making snap judgments about why someone may be doing some behaviour or, you know, may have a particular attitude or something that's, you know, just take pause and be curious about it. And I do think that's something that science and art really have in common. Even I thought until quite recently, that we're kind of binary, that, you know, I was either a 'science person' or an 'arty person'. And I've always been told, I'm a 'creative person', but I've always been drawn to science. So I think the, you know, the key trait here is just my being a curious person. And I think you said yourself, you're, you've always been a curious person. And this is maybe part of the reason why you love talking to people and understanding them.

Jodi Rodgers  28:41  
Yeah. It's 'The Big Why', isn't it? You know, in science, people going 'Why?' and trying to work out 'The Why'. And it's the same with if you are a creative mind - creative minds are, sort of, open -that's how I believe creative people are being. It's an open, look at things in a different way or, you know, sensing the world in a different way. So, it really comes back to 'The Why'... I believe scientists and creative people - they're not full stops - they're definitely -

Krystle Marie  29:11  
No, absolutely. I think there's a blur and I think some of the best scientists and some of the best artists definitely borrow from each other.

Jodi Rodgers  29:19  
Yes.

Krystle Marie  29:21  
You do - just speaking of science - you do actually touch on quite a bit of science in the book. I was surprised - I was honestly surprised. And as a, you know, as a neuroscience geek, I, you know, this book just had so much for me because I was reading stories, but I was learning, so that was just, you know, a goldmine for me. How did you go about, you know, is this the neuroscience that you mentioned, just in terms of um... maybe a good example is... you talk about... actually, one that really stuck with me was the one where you're explaining stimming - 

Jodi Rodgers  29:59  
Yes. 

Krystle Marie  30:00  
And you gave a really good example, at Avid Reader on the weekend about how, you know, you see swimmers at the, you know, at the blocks sort of shaking and, you know, jumping up and down and that sort of thing. Could you - I would really love to hear you talk about stimming, because I think, as you said, it's, everybody does it, it's just maybe more pronounced in some than others.

Jodi Rodgers  30:25  
Well, I think, if we think about the central nervous system, and that we've constantly got, you know, these messages being sent from the brain into the body and back again, you know, all the time, the brain's telling the body 'Do this' or - the brain is always trying to support us to be at our best threshold. That's how I believe it to be. So, if you see somebody doing a repetitive stim, and when we're talking about that, you know, a repetitive motor mannerism, it's either doing one or two things; it's either allowing... so, the central nervous system is really revved up. Say, it's revved up with sensory overload, or it's revved up with anxiety, then, or just being basically upset - you know, the brain saying, 'This isn't good' - and it's sending messages down through the central nervous system. And our central nervous system can either go into panic mode, and get distressed. But one of the things that we all know is that repetitive movement - just, like, anything repetitive - it just slows us down, it's like the beat of our own heart, really, it just slows us down. So, when I see a person doing a repetitive movement - like that [rubs hands] rubbing their hands or rolling their fingers, or whatever they're doing, in my mind, I can see it as just the brain saying, 'Just keep it calm. Keep it slow.' Again, and again, and again, and again, and again. And then on the other hand, if the brain is saying, 'You need to be alert now, you need to be going', or you're doing an expression of glee, or you're really excited. Or if the brain is saying, 'Okay, you're about to do this really big performance', like a swimming race, then the brain sends a message to the body to say, 'Do something repetitive, but do it at rapid speed.' So, that's where we might see people flapping their hands, or jumping up and down, or it's - I just see it completely as the brain talking to the body and going, 'Okay, well, let's get this body movement happening', so that messages between the brain and the body can actually synchronise together.

Krystle Marie  32:48  
Yeah, that's such a great explanation. You know, it, it sort of made me reflect on my own behaviours - or ones that I've seen - sort of, you know... One that was, sort of, early on for me - I had never actually noticed that I rocked back and forth, or side to side. It was it was my ex-partner who actually picked up on that. And he, he'd said, you know, when you eat, you sort of rock side to side. And then I noticed when I was studying, I'd rock back and forth. So, depending on whether I was concentrating or enjoying myself (smiling) - 

Jodi Rodgers  33:24  
- yeah.

Krystle Marie  33:24  
- it was, you know, which I thought was so interesting, and it's actually made me reading about it in this book made me a bit more 'tolerant' of the other 'stims' that, you know...There's a fella that comes into work, and he's always clicking to the, whatever songs on really loudly, and it used to annoy me so much, because it was just so obvious. And I just thought, can't you, you know, 'Other people can hear you doing that', and I just... but now when I hear it, I realised that guy might just be anxious, or maybe that's how he concentrates on whatever is on his grocery list, or, you know, so I did actually find that, having read this, it made me think more about how I was perceiving other people, you know, neurotypical and neurodivergent, it was, sort of, keeping me in check, sort of... expanding my understanding, too, I think.

Jodi Rodgers  34:22  
And it can be really difficult because we don't live in isolation. And so, you know, somebody's got - if somebody's got repetitive stim - say, it's a vocal stim - so they might be grinding their teeth, or they might go, you know, even screeching or something like that, or, you know, that can be annoying to other people, because it's actually then getting into their sensory brain, going, 'Oh, why is this person doing this?' But it's that difficult part, isn't it? That if we turn around and say to somebody else, 'Hey, stop doing that! It's annoying ME.' We're still seeing the world from our perspective and our point of view. So, I have learnt very quickly to, well, originally, when I first started working, we were told to stop all stimming with people -

Krystle Marie  34:31  
...oh, right? 

Jodi Rodgers  34:48  
- because nobody was actually looking at stimming as being part of every human's neurology, and that autistic people just stimmed to, to a way that's observable, you know, it's much more observable for many people. But these days, when I'm with somebody, if they've got a stim, that could be - I recognise could be difficult for people around them - it's either trying to support the people around them to say, 'Well, put in some, you know, earbuds, if it's a sound like that, that's annoying you', or we support the person to do it to continue doing the stim, but in a way, that isn't going to be agitating to others. Because it can be difficult, because, you know, beautiful world if everybody just did what they needed to do - but because we work in environments together, and people have opposing sensory needs, too -

Krystle Marie  36:08  
- mmm.

Jodi Rodgers  36:09  
- that's the difficulty that, you know, you somebody... So, if you've got, say, somebody who's doing a vocal stim, but somebody else in the room with them is actually hypersensitive to high-pitched noises, then (laughing) we've got two things going on, at once. So, you've always got to be thinking from multiple different perspectives and points of view. 

Yeah. And it's really fascinating - I have a very - I'm very happily with a neurodivergent partner now, and we've just moved in together. So, as you can imagine (laughing) a lot of figuring that out. But I knew that it was the right decision, because prior to that, I really enjoyed living by myself, because I didn't have to think. You know, everything was routine, and I didn't feel like I had to be 'observed' in my space. And so my biggest concern, moving in was, you know, 'Ah, all my systems are going to be (laughs) disrupted!', or I'm going to have to, sort of, overthink every thing that I'm doing. But I, what sort of turned me on to the idea was that I knew that a lot of our systems would align, because in a lot of ways, our brains are similar that way. So, I did actually come home to him today. And he was in a really good mood, and it was because he had organised  - reorganised the pantry (laughing). And so he's like, 'Look what I've done!' And so he opened up the pantry. And, you know, he put up shelves, and he, he'd even measured things so that everything was at the perfect height to be stacked in there. And it may it made me think of - have you read 'The Reason I Jump'? 

Jodi Rodgers Yes.

Krystle Marie  37:49  
- yes, I thought so. Because, you know, I've just come back to reading it. And so much of what he speaks about as a non-speaking autistic person. It really is... you sort of extend that in your book a little bit?

Jodi Rodgers I deliberately did not read any books about autism the whole time I wrote the book. 

Yeah. 

So, I deliberately didn't read 'The Reason I Jump' - I did... nothing. I mean, I've had all the knowledge in the past, but I knew that if I read other people's stories while I was writing, that it wouldn't come from, from MY stories. So, but you know, once I finished and I couldn't change anything, then I was like, 'Right - let me read all these books that I've been really wanting to read for a while!' (laughing)

Krystle Marie (laughing) Yeah, but I mean, that's, that's so true. I think it's, that's one of those rules in the writer community - is that, you know, if you want to write well, it's good to mimic who you admire. On the other hand, I've always been - because part of my 'condition', I think, is mimicry - I've always found it really hard to navigate that space. Do I read this and then all of my writing's going to be a 'wannabe Ernest Hemingway' -

Jodi Rodgers  39:06  
(laughing)

Krystle Marie  39:06  
- you know, I, it took me a long time to find my own voice by, in a way, avoiding exposing myself to too much. But - you're a natural storyteller. When you say you're not a writer - but you are a storyteller! You know, and I actually, I honestly think that to be a writer, you need to be a storyteller because you can be - you can use big, fancy flowery words or you know, sort of highbrow sophisticated ideas, but it's not going to resonate with anyone. And I think as a reader - and a writer now - what I appreciate is that people can really tell when you're authentic -

Jodi Rodgers  40:07  
Mmm.

Krystle Marie  40:07  
- and people read that, too - people are so switched on to that. And it's SO authentic, you know... even watching you engage on the weekend, you know, it's like you're everyone's friend. And I think that's why people, sort of, are so, you know, you've become so beloved, because you are just so warm and engaging. And, you know, these stories you're telling are... with so much humour, but so much genuine care and empathy. And...

Jodi Rodgers  40:47  
There's probably two parts to that, Krystle. One is that in my work, you know, I work with people with, that could have a cognitive disability, or literacy could be difficult for people, or understanding complex concepts could be difficult or... I work with lots of different people. And my biggest thing is trying to make any type of information accessible to other people. So, part of that simplicity in storytelling, or, you know, NOT being flowery, NOT using big words. And I say all the time, I'm not, there's no academic jargon that I'm going to add into it, because I wanted that to be accessible to somebody that didn't read in that style. And I think naturally, after many, many years, I just try and take a complex concept, and make it understandable to whoever on there, that's not one. But the the second one, when you're talking about being authentic... what I've realised, and this is, this is something I've learnt from being with people who, you know, what I've learnt from many, many people I spend time with is that the purest joy comes when you are comfortable in your own skin. And you know what, I struggle with that in certain areas. But what I do know is that I can't be anybody other than myself. And it's interesting, you're saying that - somebody said to me the other day, 'Are you any different anywhere?' Because they had been to a book launch and had seen me sit in front of a lot of people. And I spoke in exactly the same way as when I ran into them at the supermarket. 

Krystle Marie  42:26  
Yeah. 

Jodi Rodgers  42:26  
So, what I've realised is that I find it very difficult not to be me. But I have also been taught across a lifetime that that's where our - it's like what you're saying people know, when you're authentic people, definitely know, they pick that up quickly. So... but I really appreciate you saying that, because it's, it's important - it's important in my connection with other people that people FEEL that with me. And it's also important for me that, if I am trying to relay information that it is easily understandable - so you've just given me two very, very high compliments.

Krystle Marie  43:06  
(laughing) Well deserved! I think, sort of, continuing on from that, it just reminded me that... you know, I've had a couple of friends who have sought... they've sought counselling, or they've sought, you know, just sort of - they needed someone to speak to because, you know, maybe they weren't navigating that grief that you mentioned earlier. You know, they... I've had a couple  - particularly male friends - who have found it very difficult to 'accept' - they know that they are, and they'll express that to me, they say, 'I know I am, but I just, I can't accept it.'

Jodi Rodgers  43:46  
Yeah.

Krystle Marie  43:46  
- and it's been very difficult for them to find people to speak to. And, I think, exactly because of that. They don't feel that the person they're speaking to is being 'real' with them. They don't feel that they're actually concerned with what happens with them. So, it's very hard for them to, sort of, you know, break down that -

Jodi Rodgers  44:10  
Yeah .

Krystle Marie  44:11  
- that barrier, and it reminded me of the story - I can't recall his name - the fellow that you would read myths to outside his door? 

Jodi Rodgers  44:19  
Yeah -

Krystle Marie  46:02  
How long were you doing that for? It was something...

Jodi Rodgers  48:09  
- a long time - 

Krystle Marie  48:17  
- yeah.

Jodi Rodgers  48:19  
- it was a long time. It was severeal months, I think. 

Krystle Marie  48:26  
Yeah - but that's - I think that's what's needed. I think, you know... I know that I've done similar myself, where I just anticipate people are going to leave. So I've, you know, as you say, I've acted in a way that will distance them. And I've had, you know, some of my autistic peers have done similar where they've acted out or, you know, they've shown so-called 'ugly behaviour' -

Jodi Rodgers  48:52  
Yeah. 

Krystle Marie  48:52  
- to see how far they can 'test' someone's actual, you know -

Jodi Rodgers  48:58  
Yep. 

Krystle Marie  48:58  
'Are they consistent?' - and that was, you know, my current partner, the thing that he said about me... he was very, sort of, reluctant about relationships. And he said that something that he admired about me was that I was so - it was - that I was consistent. And he saw that I was the same with everyone. 

Jodi Rodgers  49:19  
Yeah.

Krystle Marie  49:20  
And, you know, I always acted in accordance with particular values, and THAT'S actually, sort of, what warmed him to the idea of, you know, maybe 'giving it a go'. And I think, and I understand that it might be systemic, that maybe part of the healthcare industry is that not every practitioner has the time to be that tenacious and stubborn...

Jodi Rodgers  49:50  
And that's an ongoing difficulty and problem, I think, because when we live in a world that - we know in Australia, it might be that if somebody gets a mental health care plan, prior to diagnosis or you know, they might not have access to NDIS. You know, there's people that, they, they're not even at the first level of trusting me, after 10 hours - it takes a long, long time to develop trust in somebody. And if you - because you, you do - you test the boundaries with somebody, not - none of us come out and just speak our full truth to anybody in a very short space of time! But, yeah, I think that that's a lacking problem that we have, because time is what develops relationships. And I also 100% know, from years of practice that you can be, you can be a practitioner that has - or a therapist, psychologist - you can have years and years of theoretical academics - and this is kind of almost the crossover that we're talking about with the science and creativity as well; you can have every single theory of psychology under your belt. You can have every kind of different psychological practice under your belt. You can say, you know, I'm a 'this' type of therapist or 'that' type of therapist, but you - there is no therapeutic relationship that is going to be successful unless it's genuine. 

Krystle Marie  51:19  
Mmm. 

Jodi Rodgers  51:19  
And so if you don't develop a genuine relationship with that person, then I don't really see the point, actually, to tell you the truth. And in saying that, you know, I've seen lots of people over many, many years - and that's not to say that every single person I'm with, I think in my head, 'This is my best buddy' - it's still a professional relationship. You know, it's a highly professional relationship, but I know that if I want to best support that person, we have to have a genuine relationship together, we genuinely have to have regard for one another. So... and once you have regard for one another, then you can make great things happen. And even if the 'great things', is just having a consistent person that thinks you are fantastic. That's, that's great in itself. 

Krystle Marie  51:30  
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, you know, to bring it back to, particularly, some of my male autistic friends, they've found the hardest thing is that they don't understand when - I do want to be respectful of your time - 

Jodi Rodgers  52:28  
That's okay!

Krystle Marie  52:29  
They do find it hard to understand why people just sort of suddenly leave. So I think, you know, particularly, if they were to access more objective parties - I try and be that voice of reason for them anyway - I think, 'Oh, how did your date go?' And then they might tell me, and they say, 'I did everything right!' You know, objectively, 'I did it by the book'. And I, and then, you know, you go deeper into it. And there's a lot of rigidity there, or I think, 'Oh, well, how do you think she might have felt about, you know, 'this' kind of thing?' So as you say, you've got to meet in the middle. So I think, you know, you're giving primarily neurotypical people - but definitely not excluding neurodivergent people - some insight through 'Unique' - you're bridging that gap.

Jodi Rodgers  53:19  
Mmm. 

Krystle Marie  53:19  
You know, and I think both neurotypical and neurodivergent people are going to identify elements of their own experience in this book, regardless of their -

Jodi Rodgers  53:30  
- and when I wrote the 'Us', you know, 'what autism can teach US' - I wasn't, I wasn't really saying - I wasn't writing it for autistic people. I was writing a love letter to autism, to go, 'I LOVE this'  - because I do. But it wasn't for autistic people, it was for everybody else, to say, 'Just hang on a second - just step back a minute!' and, you know - this is this is not something - 'difference' is not something to fear: it's something to learn from - and it's something to become more open in the way that you do move through the world. But yeah, I know that, you know, there's going to be autistic people that read this book and just think, 'Why the bloody hell is neurotypical person writing about autism?' And I just hope that the Autistic Community knows that I - it is with the most deep respect that I've written this book - and I have, every step of the way, I've gained permission from autistic people. You know, including having it read by a professional autistic sensitivity reader -

Krystle Marie  54:43  
- yeah.

Jodi Rodgers  54:43  
 - you know, every single step of the way. But I also, the thing that I hope the autistic community realises - that I had a 'platform' - and when that platform came about, I had a voice - and it's not an autistic voice, but what it is, is the voice of somebody who actually can say, 'Listen, hear the rest of you - you are looking at this from a completely wrong direction', or 'You're only seeing it from your point of view'. And so if I could change the life of any autistic person to feel like they - like, we said, if they were 'seen' - if I could change the life of any autistic person, because I had helped neurotypical people see it in a different light - and I was going to do that. So, you know, I just hope the Autistic Community knows that it's with, you know, deep, deep, deep respect, and also wanting people to just be more accepting! (laughing) 

Krystle Marie  55:43  
(smiling) Yeah, yeah. So I did, funnily enough, when, when I realised this book was being released, I had a look at the public library - I'm quite close to a public library near work - and there was one book review already on the book - and I thought, 'That's a bit early', so I'm not sure whether it had been - 

Jodi Rodgers  56:05  
Was it - so what happens is, this book's been published in the US, or Canada, North America, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and then it's getting translated, into a couple of languages, but in the publishing world - I didn't know any of this, Krystle - but in the publishing world, what they do is they send out pre-copies, they're called a 'Net Galley'. So, they get to see it in a form that's not complete, they get to see it while it's still got spelling mistakes in there -

Krystle Marie  56:05  
Oh!

Jodi Rodgers  56:13  
- and incorrect things -

Krystle Marie  56:29  
Yeah -

Jodi Rodgers  56:36  
- and they send those out to people because they are trying to get an understanding of early reviews. So, that's what might have been -

Krystle Marie  56:49  
- yeah.

Jodi Rodgers  56:49  
- somebody who has read it prior to it actually being published. 

Krystle Marie  56:54  
Yeah. That's interesting, because I sort of, I hadn't read it yet - when I read the review - and it was, you know, it was a self-proclaimed autistic person. And they'd said, 'This book isn't going to, you know, if you're neurodivergent, this book won't... it's not going to teach you about autistic relationships'. And I thought, 'Hang on - it's, that's not its intention' - and that's not to say that it's inaccessible to neurodivergent people, but the... you even say, from the word go, this is, you know, 'I'm not autistic'. And I'm not, you know, 'These are MY stories that I'm telling'. You're passing on - you are the voice for these people who might otherwise not be able to convey these stories, and, you know, in saying that, though - I did notice that on the front, it says, 'We could all do with a Jodi in our lives', from the New York Times. So that's, you know - you don't have to be in the publishing industry to know that that's high praise, but what I was most impressed by, is Temple Grandin (smiling) says, 'Jodi Rodgers enters the world of many individual autistic people. She will serve as your guide to their inner experiences. This book will provide greater acceptance and understanding.' What better word of -

Jodi Rodgers  58:18  
- I know, I nearly cried! When they said to me -

Krystle Marie  58:21  
- that's incredible! 

Jodi Rodgers  58:22  
They said Temple Grandin's read it! Temple Grandin's doing - and I'm like, 'What? No way!' Because, of course, for somebody that, you know, she, she's a pioneering voice, really. One of the pioneering voices that made people go, 'Actually, maybe we don't understand autism at all!' (laughing) You know, she was, she was one of the first autistic voices to say, 'Listen to autistic people. Just listen.' And so, you know, I, I hold her in very, very high regard. And so when they said to me that she had written a review of the book - I was beside myself, to tell you the truth!

Krystle Marie  59:03  
Because I honestly can't think of anyone better -

Jodi Rodgers  59:06  
Yeah.

Krystle Marie  59:07  
- to, sort of, give their blessing. 

Jodi Rodgers  59:10  
Yeah. I also acknowledge, too, you know, I've written a book to say every single person has their own perspective and point of view - all of us, like, you know, the 8 billion plus of us have our own perspective and point of view. So, I'm also very understanding that there will be autistic people or, you know, neurodivergent people that will read this book and say, 'You know, this isn't for me', or this, you know, 'It should be autistic voices that we listen to', or you know, because we all have a different perspective and point of view and that point of view is very, very valid. And it should be listened to - it shouldn't be something that you just go, 'Oh, well, you know, no, that's not how it should be.' Well, that's, that's that person's perspective and point of view. And that's, I'm happy for, you know - that person had written the review that you're talking about - if that's their point of view, that's, that's great. As long as, I just hope that that person understands and has enough, kind of stepping into my shoes to go, 'Oh, she hasn't written this with any disrespect'. 

Krystle Marie  1:00:17  
Yeah. Oh! And they absolutely mention that  - they said that, you know, your authenticity and good intentions shine through. I think they may be misunderstood, potentially, that it's not intended to be 'how to navigate autistic relationships'. I think we're, sort of, coming to a close here. I do need to say - I've been listening to Michael's podcast, some of his older episodes - is he still podcasting? 

Jodi Rodgers  1:00:42  
He's having a break at the moment because he has just finished the filming of a television show called 'Austin', which is coming out in May, I think, on the ABC. So, he's actually doing an acting role - 

Krystle Marie  1:00:59  
(gasps)

Jodi Rodgers  1:00:59  
- but it's a, it's the story about an autistic man who travels from Australia to the UK to track down his biological father, and you know, the 'adventures' of an autistic man. So yeah, he's on hiatus at the moment to just, you know, be - 

Krystle Marie  1:01:16  
- 'focus on his craft'...  

Jodi Rodgers  1:01:17  
- quest and that... except that I hit him up every day. 

Krystle Marie  1:01:20  
Yeah! 

Jodi Rodgers  1:01:21  
Yeah. So yeah, we're very, very good friends. 

Krystle Marie  1:01:24  
Yeah. Yeah. Oh good, because I've quite enjoyed his podcasts, and I was listening to the one the other day where he was talking about his favourite video game: 'The Simpsons Hit and Run'. Can you tell him that he does an amazing Chief Wiggum impression?

Jodi Rodgers  1:01:39  
(laughs) 

Krystle Marie  1:01:40  
I know he loves doing voices, but it was spot on - and I'm a huge Simpsons fan - so, I was just delighted by that.

Jodi Rodgers  1:01:47  
I'll definitely let him know - he'll be very, very happy to hear that.

Krystle Marie  1:01:51  
I'm glad that he's not, you know, 'throwing the towel in' necessarily, but I'm keen to see 'Austin'. So... Oh, that's so fantastic!

Jodi Rodgers  1:01:59  
Yeah, comes out in May -

Krystle Marie  1:02:02  
- May. Okay, wonderful. Okay, well, I'd say it's probably best to wrap up here. I know, you've probably got lots of stuff packed in for your afternoon. So, people can find 'Unique' pretty much anywhere you buy good books - do support your local bookstore, if you can - you know, you were at Avid Reader the other day, and I know that they're, you know - if they haven't been snapped up already, there'll be signed copies available in store. I did see on your story that you were, you snuck into Indooroopilly - was it QBD books?

Jodi Rodgers  1:02:40  
I've been in QBD... I got busted! Yeah, that was Dymocks in Indooroopilly. I've got busted though, Krystle, because the opening line of the book is, 'My grandfather taught me how to find four leaf clovers...' And because I do find four leaf clovers, I've been sneaking into bookstores and putting four leaf clovers that I've turned into bookmarks.

Krystle Marie  1:03:02  
I thought that's what you've been doing.

Jodi Rodgers  1:03:05  
I've been sneaking them into places. But... I got busted! I was in there, and we'd put it in, and interestingly - the person who worked in the shop, when she saw me doing it - she said, 'What are you doing?' I said, 'Aw, I'm actually the author - I'm just slipping this in.' And then she said, Well, can you sign - but then when she said, 'Can you sign?' she said, 'You know, I pick up on all the small details because I am autistic.' (laughing) That ended up being a great conversation.

Krystle Marie  1:03:34  
That's amazing. Okay, well, I also recommend that people grab the audiobook - AS WELL even -because I love switching between those modes. But you know, your voice is just, it's so lovely. And I know you were worried about it, how it might be received on TV. And now you know, you're reading your own words, and I honestly can't imagine hearing it otherwise. So, you know, definitely, if you're an audiobook person - definitely hop on that. And I just want to thank you so much, from the bottom of my heart, for writing this book. Because, you know, there really isn't anything like it that I'm aware of, and I do think it's going to, hopefully, nurture a lot of people's empathy and understanding and, most importantly, have people be a little more curious about those around them - neurotypical, neurodivergent, whatever. 

Jodi Rodgers  1:04:35  
Yeah, me too.

Krystle Marie  1:04:37  
We can learn so much from each other. And yeah, especially at the moment in the world, I think it's important that we be curious and be kind.

Jodi Rodgers  1:04:47  
I think, I 100% agree with you. Yeah.

Krystle Marie  1:04:51  
Thank you so much, Jodi. People will be able to find you... You're off to Gleebooks next, in Sydney?

Jodi Rodgers  1:04:58  
Gleebooks in Sydney, and then in Melbourne at Readings, and then Canberra... I can't remember where I am in Canberra. But yeah, it's all on my Instagram.

Krystle Marie  1:05:11  
Okay, we might even try and pop it in the show notes, I'll figure out how to do that. I do have a friend, an old friend contacted me the other day out of the blue - several years. And he said, 'Sorry about the radio silence, I found out that I have "old spicy brain".' And I just immediately thought, 'Oh okay, you too. And I just wroteit, I was just like, 'Oh, you too,' you know, 'join the club!' And he's like, 'Oh, just a hint of "the 'tism".' And I just said, 'You know, this is why we're friends. This is why we're family.' It's like a code. So, you know, it's so funny. I will be telling him in Canberra for us to come and see you. 

Jodi Rodgers  1:05:51  
Yeah! It's the bookstore at the ANU, but I just can't remember at the moment which one. But yes, it's on my Instagram. Yeah, and social media.

Krystle Marie  1:06:04  
Yeah, we'll pop all the details up so people can find it. Yeah. Thank you so much, Jodi!

Jodi Rodgers  1:06:09  
Thank you so much! I've loved talking with you. It's been lovely!

Krystle Marie  1:06:11  
You're such - you're so easy to talk to. And I was really glad to hear that you genuinely love having conversations with people (laughing).

Transcribed by https://otter.ai