Eco-fiction for every reader with Andrea Baldwin

In this episode, Amanda Niehaus chats with writer and psychologist Andrea Baldwin about writing eco-fiction and crafting stories about the environment for different audiences and age groups.

Andrea Baldwin is a psychologist and author who works at the intersection between arts, health and the environment. She holds PhDs in psychology and creative writing and a Masters in drama. Currently, Andrea is the clinical consultant supporting Queensland Health's response to children and young people affected by recent floods and bushfires. She is also the immediate past chair of the Queensland Writers Centre and a writer of eco-fiction for all ages.

Explore Birdie's Tree: https://www.childrens.health.qld.gov.au/natural-disaster-recovery/

The Science Write Now (SWN) Podcast is a 3x/monthly podcast for people who love science and the arts. If you’re interested in learning more about great books, plays, and films; writing, research or editing; the lives of scientists; and creative insights into contemporary science … then you’ve come to the right place!

The SWN Podcast is hosted by Amanda Niehaus and Jessica White and produced by Taylor Mitchell with funding from the Australia Council for the Arts.

You can also find and follow us online - on Twitter - on Instagram - and on Facebook! 

Our opening song is 'Balmain' by Pure Milk: https://www.triplejunearthed.com/artist/pure-milk.html

Transcript

Andrea Baldwin Interview 

SPEAKERS

Andrea Baldwin, Amanda Niehaus

Amanda Niehaus  00:22

Andrea Baldwin is a psychologist and author who works at the intersection between arts, health and the environment. She holds PhDs in psychology and creative writing and a Master's in drama. Currently, Andrea is the clinical consultant supporting Queensland Health's response to children and young people affected by recent floods and bushfires. She's also the immediate past chair of the Queensland Writers Centre, and a writer of eco-fiction for all ages. Welcome, Andrea.

Andrea Baldwin  00:52

Thanks for having me, Amanda.

Amanda Niehaus  00:54

It's so nice to see you. I would love to start by asking you how you would describe eco fiction?

Andrea Baldwin  01:01

It's a great question because I, I don't think that there's a consensus yet about how to talk about fiction about ecological issues. So there's a lot of writing about science and about the natural world that's nonfiction. So academic papers, and essays and nonfiction books that present information. But fiction works in a really different way, from nonfiction. And eco-fiction, to me is a term for describing stories that have ecological science at their heart.

Amanda Niehaus  01:32

That's brilliant. That's the kind of work I think I can get into.

Andrea Baldwin  01:35

I call myself an eco writer. I look around and nobody else seems to be doing that. But that's, that's what I say I write eco-fiction.

Amanda Niehaus  01:42

And you say you write eco fiction for all ages. So do you find yourself drawn to particular age groups for particular types of stories?

Andrea Baldwin  01:54

Well, full disclosure, I'm a psychologist, and I was originally a child and adolescent psychologist, and I decided to be one of them when I was 12. So basically, a child and adolescent myself. So teenagers kind of remain my favourite people. Don't tell everybody else but but then I've accidentally fallen into being a children's writer. And I've discovered that zero to four year olds are also pretty cool. And you know, those middle grade kids, they're pretty spectacular as well. So yeah, there's different requirements, I suppose that the different ages call on you for different things. But that's not to say that the issues are any different. Like everybody cares about their future and the environment and how we interact with the natural world, you just tell the stories in a different way, depending on who you're talking to.

Amanda Niehaus  02:45

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I know. My husband, Robbie and I, we have we have a daughter who's about to turn 14 now. And we've always tried to find that balance between how do we explain things, complex ideas to her in a way that she can understand and relate to, which is sometimes a challenge. Sometimes the easier way is just to come out with what you might say to your other adult friends or colleagues. And, and so I wonder when you're writing for children or young people? Do you find that different like that you have to conceptualise the ideas in a different way than you do for adults?

Andrea Baldwin  03:26

Definitely. And it depends on the age as well. So for me writing stories for zero to four year olds, where we're expecting the parent to be reading the story to the child, but the story still needs to make sense to the child. And, and we scaffold those books. What I'm talking about are the birdie books.

03:42

Yeah, tell us more about the Birdie books. 

03:45

These are books produced by the Queensland Centre for perinatal and infant mental health, which is part of Children's Health Queensland, which is sort of part of Queensland Health. So it's the Queensland State government health public service. And that's a clinical team, but they became aware of the need for mental health promotion prevention and early intervention. Because in 2011, three quarters of the state was natural disaster declared between Cyclone Yasi and the floods that had happened. And there was a really sharp increase in little kids zero to four coming in with anxiety and all kinds of emotional and behavioural disturbances and regression in their behaviour, and separation anxiety and rain phobias, and a lot of issues going on for them. Because it's actually quite difficult for adults to explain to little people in language they can understand what is all that's that's happening. Whereas a storybook that's got a beginning, a middle and an end. It's actually got a structure built in, it's got some concreteness, it's got, our books, have got Birdie and Mr. Frog, who are a bright pink bird and a bright green frog, okay, and that kids relate to them. It's a picture book. It's a format that they really understand. And it gives the parents a jumping off point. So you can read the story with the child. And the story itself is therapeutic and useful, because it shows that you can get through really tough times, particularly caused by extremes of weather, with help from the people around you, and those who care and you can get through and everything will be okay in the end. But then it's also a jumping off point for conversation and discussion, and talking with the child in age appropriate language about what's going on for them.

Amanda Niehaus  05:24

Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant. So what kinds of what kinds of natural disasters do you cover in these books?

Andrea Baldwin  05:30

Well, so far, we have eight. I always forget one. So there's earthquake, flood, fire, cyclone, drought, the very hot day, Birdie and The Very Hot day yet, because heat waves actually kill more people than any other natural disaster. And they're quite significant. We need to take them into account. Then we had Birdie and the Big sSckness, but it had a vaccination in it. And at the time, COVID didn't have a vaccine available. So we actually created Birdie and The Virus, to specifically look at COVID so it has got social distancing, and mask wearing and hand washing and the fact that if you get sick, you have to quarantine. And that's really hard. It was really hard for little kids to, they didn't know why they can't see their grandparents, or why their birthday party kept getting cancelled, or why they couldn't play with their friends. So a lot of that is built into Birdie and The Virus to help them understand. We didn't really get too much into the science of what a virus is. Just the idea that there is this thing that can make you sick. Yeah. And you can they can search for it in your nose to see if you've got it in a very, very uncomfortable way. Yes. And it was very difficult to decide how to phrase that because you know, some kids, it's not a drama at all. And some kids it's really painful and awful. So I didn't want to traumatise kids before they got there. Yeah, we also didn't want to betray them by making like it was okay. So we ended up compromising on "the little stick felt strange inside Birdie's nose, but it wasn't there long."

Amanda Niehaus  06:57

That's perfect. I love that. Next time I get a COVID test, I'm going to remember that phrase.

Andrea Baldwin  07:02

I think get someone to give you a treat as well, because in big sickness when she does have a vaccination, someone gives her a treat. Yes. And she chooses not to watch and she chooses to blow bubbles instead. 

Amanda Niehaus  07:14

So on a side note, we recently, our whole family recently went and got our booster shots for whooping cough because we have some friends who have babies being born and it's been a while since we had our first vaccination. And my poor husband Robbie, we were all you know, we all sat there Nelle was offered a lolly at the end and Robbie. Robbie asked for one very, very sweetly. And the nurse laughed at him.  We thought that was the most terrible thing.

Andrea Baldwin  07:46

Oh, bad science.

Amanda Niehaus  07:47

I know. Yeah. 

Andrea Baldwin  07:51

I have to confess when I went from I flu. That wasn't my flu vaccine. I went to my COVID vax, my first one and it was strangely new and different. And I'm needle phobic. I took my toy Mr. Frog. 

Amanda Niehaus  08:04

You have a toy. Mr. Frog? 

Andrea Baldwin  08:05

I have a toy. Mr. Frog. You should have brought Birdie and Mr Frog in.

Amanda Niehaus  08:08

That would have been perfect. 

Andrea Baldwin  08:10

You'll just have to imagine them. 

Amanda Niehaus  08:11

Yes, yes. Well, my daughter had her, growing up invisible friends were frog and dinosaurs. So I already have an inbuilt frog in my mind that I'm putting into the story.

Andrea Baldwin  08:23

We have a few more Birdie books coming we have Birdie and the Storm. And because the power goes out, and it's scary, because it's dark, Mr. Frog turns on the torch and they play shadow puppets and he makes a shape with his hand and a shadow friend appears on the wall. 

Amanda Niehaus  08:36

That's brilliant. I love that. So what other ones do you have coming?

Andrea Baldwin  08:39

Two more coming. We've got Birdie and the Shelter for little ones who have to go into an evacuation shelter or a cyclone shelter or something because that can be really scary and distressing for little ones. It's very loud and people are worried and it's full of strangers and very rowdy. And you know, the song could be raging outside. So it's all about just showing them that that's okay, too. Yeah. And then the other one hopefully we'll never need in Queensland it's Birdie and the Big Freeze. So yeah, blizzards and cold weather. And when when you get isolated by extreme cold weather.

Amanda Niehaus  09:09

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's that sounds so great. And so it does actually sound like the perfect project for someone who has both a creative writing and a psychology degree. Is that do you feel like that you feel like you've just jumped into the perfect.

Andrea Baldwin  09:27

You've heard of job satisfaction? Right now I've got job joy.

Amanda Niehaus  09:31

That's amazing. I love that. And so what is your process in the the creation of the Birdie books?

Andrea Baldwin  09:39

It has become more complex with time, because we became more and more aware of how much we could build into quite a simple story. So at present, it's got quite a bit consultation process. So we've got a multidisciplinary team to call on. We've got psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, nurses, occupational therapists, a speech therapist who is particularly helpful. She gave us some guidance on some of the language we had. We have to say stay in the safest part of our home until the storm is over. And she said "until" doesn't make any sense to somebody under four. So we changed that. Yeah. So that's why we have to say "stay in the safest part of our home and wait for the storm to end." So that works. But until doesn't work when you're under four. So things like that, that I didn't know, then we've consulted quite widely with disaster management personnel and emergency responders, especially around Birdie and the Shelter. They had a lot of guidance of things they wanted us to do and not do from a sort of a public health point of view so that children would know what to expect and not be misled in any way. And then we've had a lot of guidance from children and parents themselves as they're reading the Birdie books that have already happened, that's informing the new ones that are coming along. So yeah, they're getting quite sophisticated. But we have to keep the language still very simple. The pictures are still very bright and vibrant. And they're definitely children's books. They're definitely fiction. That's the other thing that I sometimes have to explain to people. Because if you have a story, but then you stick a sheet in the end for teachers and parents about "how to use this book", it stops being for the child, it stops being a story, it stops, it's some kind of a tool, or a strategy or something nonfiction. And kids see straight through that. Even four year olds. So you've got to write, when you're trying to influence somebody through a story, you can't be preaching at them, or lecturing them, or just a thinly disguised piece of nonfiction, you actually got to be telling a story that's got a character and conflict and dramatic tension and stuff, for you to be anxious on their behalf and be rooting for them to succeed. And that emotional release and the joy of the happy ending, that's all got to be in there and be real. You can't fake that.

Amanda Niehaus  11:59

No, no. And so in the process of writing each, of crafting each of these books, which sounds massive, but also exciting, how much how much science do you do you pull in?

Andrea Baldwin  12:13

I think now, this is the same for all ages, when when I'm writing for any age, I want to know all the science myself. So I research and I understand the science, but only little bits actually make it into the story. And you know, there's we've spoken about this before the drip feeding of alienation. So you don't have somebody reading along the story. And all of a sudden, they get a big dump of facts and figures, that pulls them out of the story. So it's sort of drip feeding it in and making it very much part of the story. The science is the story. It's not something imposed on. And it's not something that the story is trying to just make more palatable, like sugarcoating the science.  And I guess one of the best examples for me at the Birdie books is there is a moment after the hailstorm–and it's very destructive, and scary hailstorm—but there's a moment when she holds a hailstone in her hand. And Mr. Frog says it's just it's just water. It's just frozen water and she watches it melt into a puddle in her hand. So even though it's been so loud, and noisy and scary, and it actually has destroyed her nest, and they have to rebuild, there's a lot of emotion around that. There's this moment when she has power over the hailstone because she understands it. And that's one of the things that I'm trying to do is build the science in in an emotionally meaningful way that contributes to the story and to the character's growth. So birdies actually experiencing what we might call post traumatic growth. Yeah, getting through a stressful time, coming up bigger and stronger. But part of that is her understanding, her empowerment by understanding the science. Yeah.

Amanda Niehaus  13:47

And also that kind of moment, could drive curiosity in a kid as well. I mean, next hailstorm, they might say let's go outside and pick up a hailstone and see see what happened.

Andrea Baldwin  13:58

It was one of the great joys of my childhood, I must say I really wanted Birdie to put the hailstone in her mouth. I was like, there's no better way to have agency and empowerment or something than to put it in your mouth, and that's what zero to four year olds do, but everyone said no. You musn't encourage children to pick things up off the ground. So she just lets it melt in her head.

Amanda Niehaus  14:21

Yeah, that's fair.  You know, I I love that. So where can people find the Birdie books?

Andrea Baldwin  14:28

There's a website, Birdie's Tree. Birdie with an IE. So just browse Birdie's Tree and you can read all the books for free online on your mobile phone or your tablet or your computer. You can buy them at cost recovery. They're $10 a book. And there's games for kids to play. There's information sheets and booklets for parents. That's the nonfiction bit best. There's  resources around the stories. What else have we got? There's fun with Birdie, which is an activity book, especially for kids who might be out of home if they have been evacuate. They might be in a shelter, they might be staying with friends. Or in fact, it's really useful when you're in lockdown or quarantine as well. We designed it for kids who might not have access to their usual toys and crafts and things. So it's all the pages are perforated, you can just tear them out, you can share them around, you can photocopy them. Some are coloured, some are not. All you need is some pencils, and like some safety scissors and bluetack. And you can have hours of fun with this book. It's designed for zero to four year olds, because there wasn't much around for them. But there are some games and activities for older siblings and other kids so that they can be doing something together. You can also download it and print it off the website which makes it easier. And then there's Relaxing with Birdie, which is the mindfulness and movement routine that parents, educators can do with little ones,  or you don't have to have a child to do it. And it's available on the website as an animation too. But I always say to people do not operate heavy machinery while listening to Relaxing with Birdie. 

Amanda Niehaus  16:01

That's brilliant. I'll be sure and post the link. 

Andrea Baldwin  16:06

We just want to help as many families as possible and all the stories that we get back. And also the child doesn't have to have been through a natural disaster, it's a way to help kids understand in preparation and to build their resilience, particularly their emotional literacy, helping kids to understand that there are words for big feelings if you're sad or worried, or lonely or scared or angry. That's okay. Other people feel those things too. And there's a word for it that can help you get a grasp of it. And you can share it. And you can tell adults that that's how you feeling, and play and art and craft and dress ups and music. And all these ways are ways to help kids to process and get through those feelings. When you're zero to four, you're just acquiring language. So acquiring the words for big feelings is really empowering.

Amanda Niehaus  16:50

Absolutely. And I could see that. I mean, I know, I know, for me as a child, even just seeing the news could be traumatic, because there are always things happening, big things that I didn't understand. And I could see if there was something like a big earthquake somewhere that this might be a good resource, even if it wasn't happening directly to you, for the family to be able to sort of understand what was happening. 

Andrea Baldwin  17:13

The advice we give to people is to try to limit children's exposure to the media. And the younger they are the more so because if they see repeated footage of something they don't know, that's the same thing just being shown lots of times, they think it's happening again, and again. And again. When you when it's the anniversary, and things get shown on the news, they think that's happening again, they also don't have a concept that that's happening far away. So if it's right there in their lounge room, and they can see and hear it and hear people talking in worried voices about it. As far as they're concerned, it's happening right here. So that's all feeding into their anxiety and worry. The other thing is adults think, well, let's not tell them anything about this thing. Let's protect them. You can't protect them, because they will pick up little bits and bobs from what they hear from the adult conversations or or the news. One of the stories that I always tell is that I thought we don't watch the news in my house. We have no news, no radio, no television news, you can't help finding out the things you need to know. But you know, they're my sources on the Internet. So I thought I was protecting my three year old from 911. I had no, I thought he hasn't seen that he doesn't know about it. I went to pick him up from charcoal one afternoon. And he had built a block of a tower of blocks. And he said, the plane goes in this side. And the fire comes out that side, and he recreated the image that had been all over TV. So I have no idea where he saw it. But he saw it. Yeah. So we need to talk, not avoid. We need to talk with kids in appropriate age appropriate language that they can understand. And let them know that we're there for them, reassure them, answer their questions, be led by them, you know, I don't need to go into lots of gory details. And if they're not interested, you know, maybe you don't need to talk about it. But just be aware that little pitchers have big ears. And they do. They do tune into the emotions of the adults around them. And if they think there's something to worry to be worried about, they will sometimes create something bigger and scarier than what's actually happening.

Amanda Niehaus  19:15

That's brilliant advice. Thank you. So Andrea, in addition to doing the Birdie books as part of your work with Queensland Health, you also write for young adults and adults. And you'd also call that eco-fiction. Is it sort of related to climate change issues? 

Andrea Baldwin  19:37

I always worry about rolling all environment issues under the term climate change or under the idea of climate. There's a few reasons for that. One is that climate change is still quite a politicised idea. People still debate about it and argue about it. Whereas there are things that we can be doing immediately right now that there is no debate about we actually know what we need to do, for example, plastic reduction. I'm really excited about the steps that have been taken towards cutting down on single use plastic, and there's a long way to go yet. But that's something every single one of us can be contributing to every day. It's got nothing to do with politics or the, you know, I think sometimes we throw up our hands in horror and go, climate change. I can't stop that.  disaster. But there's lots of things we actually can be doing that that make a difference. We have a say in how coastal development occurs. For example, we have a say in the things that our councils choose to do in waterways, all kinds of pollution. Light pollution is my big bugbear because I'm a turtle researcher, and I have a great passion for turtles, turtles, sea turtles have been around for 80 million years. And I for one, I'm not prepared to lose them on our watch. So there are so many things that we can be doing to reduce light pollution. So that A, the mothers can come ashore and lay and get back to the sea safely, and B, the babies when they hatch, can find the ocean. Lots of really simple things. But unless people are aware of that, and agitate for it, just things like the lighting along coastal walkways, paths, if you have lights that are sensor lights that only come on when you're actually walking, or when you if you have lights that are down low, and you have fences or vegetation that are blocking that light from the beach, or better yet, if you don't have lights at all, and that people carry a torch, there are so many simple things that we could be doing to make a difference. So I like to talk about ecological fiction, eco-fiction, ecological issues, they climate change is part of that. And obviously a very big part of it. But I don't want everything to be alighted away and rolled into climate sort of leftover there in the big box, when we can be doing all the small things.

Amanda Niehaus  21:58

And how do you think fiction helps people connect with those small things?

Andrea Baldwin  22:04

It's it's such a big, a big question. And I think about it all the time. Because as I said before, fiction is not preaching. It's not lecturing, it's not grabbing somebody by the throat and, and trying to change the way they are. But the reality is that all of our art and cultural products come out of who we are and what our society is, and also shape what our society can be. So for example, we don't accept now, portrayals of women being, you know, disempowered and victims. And, you know, we reject stereotypes, we reject, oh, all kinds of negative portrayals of diversity, for example, we won't, we won't have it. It's yeah, it's it's not contemporary. And that happened gradually over time, in an interaction between people and their cultural products. So I, I don't have a problem with saying, I'm writing stories. In an attempt to change the world, I actually do want readers to read the story and be changed in some way. But I have to use the skills of a writer and a storyteller. To affect that change. It sounds horribly manipulative.

Amanda Niehaus  23:23

I totally get what you're meaning.

Andrea Baldwin  23:25

Because well, I was changed by the books that I read as I grew up, affected the way I see the world and the values that I hold and the things that I do as a result. And I just want to be part of that ongoing change. And and I happen to believe that turtles are really important, for example.

Amanda Niehaus  23:41

So have you written a novel about a turtle?

Andrea Baldwin  23:44

I've written an adult novel about turtles. I've nearly finished a young adult trilogy, which probably does fall into the category of cli-fi, which is about, a usually a subset of science fiction. So they're usually set in the future. They've got something to do with climate change, where the things are progressed a long way from where they are now in a negative way, or if there's been some sort of climate catastrophe or apocalypse. So in my story, it all rolled into itself. So we started fighting with each other. We lost pollinating insects as a result of warfare in the technologies of warfare. Losing pollinating insects meant that we lost food resources and biodiversity. So now we had fewer resources, so we fought more. And so there's been this spiral downwards to a place where resources are limited. And the human race has basically come down to two warring countries. And the point is that there are these young people who have the opportunity to step up and change the way that their society is going. And they're a group of young people. They've all got different strengths and those strengths bring them into conflict with each other with their external opponents and within themselves. So it's actually a story about leadership. And those young people have the chance to change the society that they're in, if they can work out how to lead. And I think that's true, I think I think that's always been true young people have always got that opportunity.

Amanda Niehaus  25:20

And also, I find it interesting that you, you say that these characters all have different strengths. I wonder if there's almost an analogy with interdisciplinarity. And the way that we all try to sort of push forward our ideals of our education and experience. And it can be sometimes hard to appreciate those same things in others, but, but I do strongly believe, and I don't know if this is what happens in your book, but I do strongly believe that, it's when we find a way to sort of talk to each other, communicate across those differences, that the really important stuff happens.

Andrea Baldwin  26:03

Yeah, you're speaking my language. Well, my last PhD was very interdisciplinary.

Amanda Niehaus  26:09

So what was your last PhD?

Andrea Baldwin  26:12

It was a PhD in creative writing. But I was coming from the perspective of a psychologist. And there's a particular philosophy or body of work called Lacanian psychoanalysis by this guy called the Jacques . Now, everyone disagrees on how to pronounce this, because he's French, I always say Jacques Lacan. But some people say "Luca", some people say "Lacan" anyway Lacanian psychoanalysis, which kind of fell out of fashion in psychology quite a long time ago, but it has remained very active in literary criticism. And he has some concepts and ideas about the self and the self's interaction with the natural world. Basically, that we come from a place where we didn't perceive any difference between ourselves in the natural world, we were all or the the environment around us, we were just all one thing. And there's this idea of plenitude, and the imaginary. But then, as we learn language, we enter into the realm of the symbolic and society and ways of ordering and structuring things and see ourselves as separate from the world around ourselves. And that that creates this loss, this desire for reconciliation for getting back together, and we live our whole lives with that desire to get back to  oneness.

Amanda Niehaus  27:31

Wow, that's so interesting. And how did you how did you use that in your PhD?

Andrea Baldwin  27:37

I wrote a novel called The Child Pose, which was about a character who has become so alienated from herself and from her childhood and from the things that matter to her. And I've discovered that it's actually a pastoral, the tradition of the pastoral is that somebody has become lost and alienated and traumatised by things that happen to them in the city. And they go to a natural place or to the, to the country or to the ocean, or to an island to try to find themselves again and find meaning again. Well, that's exactly what happens in my story. I just didn't know that's what it was called. 

Amanda Niehaus  28:13

I find that happened so much. You write into this, what feels like brand new terrain, and then and then you find out what it's called later. Yeah.

Andrea Baldwin  28:22

And it was that homecoming idea too, because she goes back to a small town by the by the beach, which is where she grew up as a little one, and found solace, because she had very difficult life with her parents. She almost found this really twee, but she almost found Mother Nature, that nurturing sense that the natural world can wrap around you, and offer you many delights and pleasures and comforts, when human beings are not doing so. Yeah. And so as a 42 year old woman who has suffered a terribly traumatic experience through her work in the city, she goes back to that same little town and is trying to heal and recover. But she finds the town itself is in conflict over a coastal development. That's about to happen. So she just gets sucked back into the simple again into the world of of that conflict.

Amanda Niehaus  29:14

Oh, that sounds so interesting.

Andrea Baldwin  29:17

I won't publish that one, though. I don't think. Because many of the themes are in my, my turtles and stars novel. 

Amanda Niehaus  29:26

So So tell us about about that one.

Andrea Baldwin  29:28

Ah, well, in that one, Professor Eve Martin is a the world's leading expert in the loggerhead turtle. But the thing about loggerheads is that they don't reach breeding age until 30 to 50 years old. So, Professor Eve realises that this is intergenerational work, she's trying to establish a new rookery in a much more remote and isolated place where there's a better chance that the loggerheads will survive for longer and turtles do go back to nest in approximately the same area where they were hatched. So she sets out to establish this new rookery on a remote island in Papua New Guinea. But she's already 31 herself. Now she's going to be in a 70s before the babies that hatch their return. So she has a daughter specifically for the purpose of carrying on her project. Her daughter is called Corretta. Because the scientific name for the loggerhead turtle is Caretta, Caretta. Oh, perfect. So but Corretta insists on calling, calling herself Kara. So up until the time of that experiment when those eggs are put into nests on this island, and Kara is 13, she's completely on board with this destiny that she has, well, maybe not completely on board. She has doubts and worries, but she trusted her mother and she's she thinks this is what she's meant to do. But something completely traumatic happens to her on that island. And she says I'm never coming back. I'm not doing this turtle thing. And she pursues her her own interests, which is astronomy. Yeah. And then she spends the rest of her life trying to heal the rift that that creates between herself and her mother and her mother.

Amanda Niehaus  31:06

Wow. Yeah, I love I love that. And why do you think she was attracted to astronomy?

Andrea Baldwin  31:15

Oh, because if you spend a lot of time walking up and down beaches patrolling for nesting turtles, you spend a lot of time stargazing. The two things go together. 

Amanda Niehaus  31:26

That's incredible. That's so beautiful, too. And and you yourself spend a lot of time patrolling beaches looking for turtles.

Andrea Baldwin  31:33

Sure do.

Amanda Niehaus  31:35

So what, like, can you tell us about your experience doing research on turtles?

Andrea Baldwin  31:41

Sure. I guess it's it's a form of citizen science, except that we are part of a bigger project that actually is run by the Department of Environmental science the science and in partnership with the University of Queensland. So I'll tell you a story. Back in 1975, I think it was, there was a New Year's Eve party on the beach at Mon Repos. Now there had been this had become a tradition, the New Year's Eve party on this beach. And people knew it was a Turtle Beach. So turtles would start to arrive and lay their eggs. And that was part of the entertainment for their people on the beach. But this particular year, there were over 1000 people on the beach because it had grown and grown and grown. And that night 26 turtles were observed coming on to the beach to lay, but they all turned around and went back. Because if you have noise and lights and people running around on the beach, that spooks the turtles, and they they don't lie, and what did they do with the eggs, then that's what we don't know. We don't know what happens if turtles are, if they're prevented from lying one night, they might come back the next night or a couple of nights later. But if they're prevented from laying for too long, we don't know. So maybe the eggs get reabsorbed into their body. Maybe they get dumped in the sea. We know they don't get laid and they don't hatch. So I think I'm not sure exactly who the people were that became aware of that night. But they said this is not good enough. And one thing led to another and they established the Mon Repo research station, which was taken over quite early or run quite early by Dr Col Limpus. Now Dr. Col is something like 83 this year, and he's still running that station and he's still tramping up and down those beaches at night. He's an inspiration.

Amanda Niehaus  33:25

That's incredible. And and so you became involved in the Mon Repo research project. Did that at what stage did you start thinking there was a novel around these turtles?

Andrea Baldwin  33:40

I think it must have been early because I first went to Mon Repo when I was 12. And I wrote a poem then about the turtles called beach hatching. Then I'd gone back when I my kids were little. And it was just so inspiring for them. We were so lucky. We had one night when a turtle came ashore and laid and the next night when hatchlings hatched out around into the sea. So they got to see both of those things. I didn't realise that both of those things could happen in the crossover period. So that's sort of November, December, they're laying. January and February can get that crossover and very much the mothers aren't coming up anymore, and it's just the hatch that blasted the hatching sky. And then the scientists get the really fun job of digging in the nests and checking how many eggs didn't hatch and how many did And were there any live ones left in the nest or were they trapped and recording all of that data. And various other scientific experiments. We did one about artificial rain to see whether you could call the beach because temperatures are rising. It gets past a particular point where the eggs are not going to hatch if they're too hot. So we found out that if there is enough artificial rain, a little bit of rainfall in the middle of the day to keep the same temperature at a viable level, the turtles will still hatch. 

Amanda Niehaus  34:57

What is artificial rain? 

Andrea Baldwin  34:58

Sprinklers. You can't artificially rain on every, every inch of every Turtle Beach. But at least we do know that that is something that helps.

Amanda Niehaus  35:07

And if you know where the nests are, I guess you could potentially.

Andrea Baldwin  35:11

And we know where a lot of the beaches are. Yeah, so there's a lot of volunteers around Mon Repo on the other beaches where turtles less but not in as big numbers. And, and Mon Repois involved in the research going out to a lot of the islands and the places where the where the turtles hatch. So people who are younger and fitter and stronger than me go out and stay for a couple of weeks on these islands and crawl under the vegetation and measure turtles on their tummies and you lose a lot of weight.

Amanda Niehaus  35:42

And, and so when you're, when you're writing the story of the mother and the daughter who are studying the turtles and the and the the sort of conflict that they have over, I guess, independence and sort of destiny, who gets to make the choice of you know, who you become or what you do. Do you think that that reflects in some way, the way that we're dealing with sort of the climate future? And because because I feel I feel like there's this disconnect right now between the people of our generation maybe who, like we know what we've done wrong, and we're trying to as a as a as a species, and we're trying to sort of fix things. But also, in a sense, we have to leave the brunt of the work to the next generation, right. And hope that they can sort of,

Andrea Baldwin  36:41

Yeah, the problem with that is that the last generation said that too. So I guess I've got more of a sense that we all need to be doing what we can be doing. And you're right, that it's us as a species. I can't remember who who wrote this. I read this the other day, and I took it on board. It was somebody who said, "Please don't make everybody feel that you as an individual have to save the planet, because everyone will just get to distressed and destroyed and overwhelmed by that. But we as individuals can do, you know, it might seem like a drop in the ocean. But what do you think the ocean is? Just lots of lots of drops, right." So I do feel inspired by the young people today. I think that they have got opportunities that we didn't that my generation didn't, because the last generation hadn't seen the writing on the wall as clearly. I think that there's more encouragement, and more. Yeah, opportunity. I love seeing the individual leaders like Greta Thunberg, and other people, but it's more that groundswell, I guess, I've got kids who are in their early 20s, and a bunch of nieces and nephews who are in their late teens and early 20s. I love a lot of their awarenesses they are so much more comfortable than then I was brought up to be with the fact that people have different sexuality. People have different gender. Wow, who knew? Yeah, you know, people can come from different political persuasions and still get on. Yeah, they are so hip to that.

Amanda Niehaus  38:22

Yeah, the inclusivity of their world compared to the world that we were born into. Yeah.

Andrea Baldwin  38:29

For me, particularly coming from the country. I think that was even more sort of isolating and and politicised. It was a politicised environment. So I am excited by the groundswell of enthusiasm and energy that young people today have. But youth activism is nothing new. And enthusiasm and energy is something that young people have always always been very good at. It's how do we help to all of us, we bring everyone, how do we help to channel that into pathways where they can actually make a difference? Because right now, and COVID, is not helping with this. It's so hard for young people to get the study opportunities they want the work opportunities, they want, the travel opportunities,  forge those connections and networks and pathways that they need to find their niche, find the thing that they can make a difference with. You're right, it is coming back to things like my novel, somebody in my novel says, Takara, you don't have to make a difference the way your mom makes a difference. You can make a difference, the way that sits right for you the way that you can follow your heart and go with the flow and the energy that is coming from you. And that's what I think everybody individually needs to be able to do. And at present, it's incredibly hard.

Amanda Niehaus  39:45

Yeah. Andrea, I'd just like to return a little bit to writing for kids and middle grade. Because I know a lot of people listening will probably be thinking about the the types of writing that they might want to do. And I just wonder, what are the specific challenges that you find of writing for these ages? And and what advice do you have for people in terms of bringing science or any other ideas into their work?

Andrea Baldwin  40:17

That's a great question too. Amanda, you're very good at questions. I guess, because I write for all ages, middle grade, there's quite a lot, a lot of advice and information out there. And most of it, I have found actually tallies with my experience of those readers. So for example, the received wisdom is that in middle grade fiction, the children want to read about kids who are about this their own age, or up to about two years older. And that's my experience of the kids that I've talked to, it doesn't seem to matter too much if, if you're a boy or girl reader, whether you're reading about a boy or girl character, they seem to be so long as the writing is skillful and engaging. They seem to engage with whatever gender the character is. And also that, in that middle grade stage, they like to be following one character, they prefer that there's sort of one point of view, because they can get a little confused, just from a developmental point of view. These are people who are learning to read on their own and read quite long stories and hold, hold quite long and complex stories in mind. So it's easier if it's just one character. Yeah. Whereas once you're in young adult, an adult, you can have multiple points of view, and you can switch around. So I think that that applies when you're talking about science as well. And we also come back to what we were saying before about making the science part of the story. So when you've got a fact, or a piece of information, that you need them to know that you're getting that across as an important part of the story. And it's part of the emotion of the story. Maybe it's part of a change moment, it's when the character of a light bulb goes on, and they change their tac, and they go off on a new action. So it's got to be actually intrinsic to the action of the story.

Amanda Niehaus  42:08

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And are there other other ways do you think to weave science effectively into a narrative? This is I mean, this is something I know, we've talked about this for years, and, but it's something that I come back to ain every single thing I write, and I would just I would love to hear your thoughts on, on on where, where we can where we can weave it in?

Andrea Baldwin  42:32

Sure. Well, the thing is, the story is fundamentally an emotional experience. So it's driven by the readers concern for the protagonist, and well, and for other characters and aspects of the story. And it's the writers job to create that concern, I've actually heard it described as a form of anxiety, we actually want the reader to be anxious on behalf of the protagonist. So if we want people to care about the environment, then building that into the story in such a way that it's emotionally relevant to them, I think is really important. So imagine that you've written a story. And you and there's a grove of trees in the story. And the grove is in danger of being cut down. We want to create an anxiety about what happens to the frove to drive the story. So scientific information about the drove, like what kinds of trees are growing there? And how old are they? And what what's the soil type ahead? How did this growth come to be here in the first place, and what insects and birds does the grove support, we need to weave that in to the emotional value created around the grove. So one thing that you can do is make the grove relate to the reader's real life experience in some ways, so maybe creating a sensory experience of the grove talking about what it smells like when the sun shining, or after its rained. The sounds of the insects and birds, when you walk through there. You hear the rustles.

Amanda Niehaus  43:58

To tap into nostalgia almost. Yeah.

Andrea Baldwin  44:01

And, and the texture of tree bark so that the readers go Yeah, yeah, yes. Yes. That that's true. Yeah. And it actually relates to them. And I guess the most powerful indirect way to make the reader care about the grove is to make the protagonist care about the grove and make sure that the reader cares about the protagonist. So people relate directly to other people. And yeah, I was told people care about people, they don't care about turtles. I went, "they must care about turtles!" But they said, no, no, no, make the people in the story care about the turtles, and then make your readers care about the people. So and I think that's actually perfectly wise and sensible. And I've been working very hard to learn how to do that. Yes, I care about the turtles. People are good too.

Amanda Niehaus  44:49

And, and just thank you so much for this chat today. Andrea, it's just been phenomenal. As we wrap up, I would love to hear if you have any books you can recommend to our listeners?

Andrea Baldwin  45:04

For for young people?

Amanda Niehaus  45:07

In any age. Books,you've loved books that you think people might find interesting, given what we've been speaking about today. And I have put you on spot here. So I don't expect you to come up with a giant list.

Andrea Baldwin  45:22

I had meant to come up with giant list but didn't quite get that far. Oh, I I can't go past. Robbie Arnott, who wrote The Rain Heron.

Amanda Niehaus  45:37

My god, the rain heron. I loved that book so much. 

Andrea Baldwin  45:41

That is the book that is haunting me this year. I think I read it early this year, and it just won't go away. So that those are books for adults, but oh my god.

Amanda Niehaus  45:50

Yes. And actually, there's something about that book that is so deeply immersive.  And just I feel the environment. I feel the trees and the rocks and the all the spaces in that book in a way that a lot of books haven't, don't give me so I'm on a craft perspective. I'm really interested in how how he's done that.

Andrea Baldwin  46:15

Yeah. Well, I would recommend people read your book, The Breeding Season. I love that. Look, I'm going to be a bit random here. And I'm sorry, I'm still with adults, because I'm madly racking my brain to try to think of some of the young adult novels that or, or children's stories that you asked me about. But just reading a range of stories that relate to the natural environment in different ways. And it was it this is going to sound quite random. Sarah Thornton is the crime writer. But she's written, Clementine Jones is her sleuth. And the two books that she's written are Lapse and White Throat. And I love them both. But I particularly like white throat because it's about or it centres around an endangered freshwater turtle species that lives in the Maryborough area. That's a real species. So she's created this fantastic gripping crime novel around an environmental issue around a real turtle. Oh, that's brilliant, obviously. I love it. It's about a turtle. Yeah. Kathy George has written an Australian gothic, kind of question mark, paranormal romance. I hope that's created enough mistaken intrigue that people rush off to read that. And that's all about the relationship between the protagonist and the place where she lives which is on a cliff edge on a on a beach. And I never show that that protagonist goes down on that beach so many times. And Kathy never describes the the sea in the beach in exactly the same way. Like every time that protagonist goes on the beach. I can see it and feel it and smell it and I never get bored with it. It's awesome. Pretty amazing short story writer Laura Elvery.

Amanda Niehaus  48:03

Yes, Laura.

Andrea Baldwin  48:04

So she's got a Trick of the Light and Ordinary Matter. And Ordinary Matter in particular is about science. Yes. So fantastic reads.

Amanda Niehaus  48:20

So Jess chatted with Laura, when her book first came out from I think if I'm correct, Laura was sitting in her dad's closet at the time because it was the only place she could escape for her from her children to do the zoom.

Andrea Baldwin  48:37

A lot of people will probably relate to that. But you asked about formative texts for me. To be really honest, a lot of it was poetry. So it wasn't so much books that I was reading, but particularly Judith writes poetry, Les Murray , some other Australian writers who are very good at evoking the natural world. Judith Wright wrote a children's novel called Range the mountains high, which was about a bushranger escorting a lady up to the Goldfields through the the rain, or not rain forest, the forest environment of that time in the 1800s. And that's always stayed with me. But Judith Wright's poetry and her concept of love like she often mentions love but what she means by that is so much bigger than romantic love or love between people. It's she's almost talking about a concept of God like Alice Walker's The Colour Purple, like love is the wholeness of the world around us. Yeah, Judith Wright's poetry is in my bones. It's it's really informed the way I see the world. And interestingly, a lot of young adult novels at present are being written in verse and I don't mean in rhyming verse, I don't mean in doggerel they're actually poetry, novels. And that's a fascinating trend of interest. As Tang, yeah, my daughter doesn't exchange books with people she exchanges either books of poetry or these poetry novels.

Amanda Niehaus  50:07

Oh, that's so wonderful. 

Andrea Baldwin  50:12

I'm sorry. I'm searching my mind. You know what I think I think I want to write environmental, eco-fiction for children and young people because I haven't come across enough of it myself, at least not enough that's not preachy or too nonfiction. 

Amanda Niehaus  50:30

Yeah. Well, we need that. Andrea, we need you to do that. In all your free time.

Andrea Baldwin  50:35

Okay. I will then I have a mission.

Amanda Niehaus  50:39

Well, thank you again for coming in and chatting with me today. It's been such a pleasure. 

Andrea Baldwin  50:43

Thanks very much. It's been great fun. 

Amanda Niehaus  50:45

Let's do it again. 

Andrea Baldwin  50:46

Yes.