Writing and painting nature with Inda Ahmad Zahri

In this episode, Amanda Niehaus chats with Inda Ahmad Zahri about writing stories embedded in nature and creating across forms.

Inda Ahmad Zahri believes in a world of wonder. She lives in Brisbane where she illustrates and writes for children and adults. Her stories are inspired by natural and cultural gems curated from her travels and lovingly added to her Malaysian heritage. She is also a surgical doctor, swapping her writer's hat and paintbrush for scrubs and scalpel when duty calls.

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The Science Write Now (SWN) Podcast is a 3x/monthly podcast for people who love science and the arts. If you’re interested in learning more about great books, plays, and films; writing, research or editing; the lives of scientists; and creative insights into contemporary science … then you’ve come to the right place!

The SWN Podcast is hosted by Amanda Niehaus and Jessica White and produced by Taylor Mitchell with funding from the Australia Council for the Arts.

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Our opening song is 'Balmain' by Pure Milk: https://www.triplejunearthed.com/artist/pure-milk.html

Transcript

Inda Ahmad Zahri

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

writing, books, people, thought, read, surgery, life, feel, picture, writer, nanowrimo, ocean, art, creative writing, malaysia, incredible, bit, grandparents, year, called

SPEAKERS

Inda Ahmad Zahri, Amanda Niehaus

Amanda Niehaus  08:43

Hi, and welcome to Science Write Now. This is Amanda Niehaus and and today I'm speaking with Inda Ahmad Zahri, who is a writer and illustrator living in Brisbane. Her first published works include the gorgeous picture books, Salih, illustrated by Anne Ryan, and Night Lights illustrated by Lesley McGee, which debuted this year. In addition to her creative self Inda also works as a surgical doctor. Welcome today, Inda. 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  09:14

Thank you, Amanda.

Amanda Niehaus  09:16

I would first like to talk about your other life as a surgical doctor. Um, what drew you to surgery?

Inda Ahmad Zahri  09:26

What drew me to surgery? So I was incredibly idealistic when I was growing up, and perhaps also a bit masochistic. And that's how I embarked on medicine. I, you know, I didn't really know what I was going to do at university except attend university and do something somehow. What I've always really, really loved from a young age was writing, but then I was told that writing is probably not a very reliable way to make a living. But I liked biology. I was very sort ofidealistic, humanistic, and I thought, you know what, let's do medicine and see where that takes me. And once I got into medicine, it was surgery that really sort of called out to me. I think I really liked being hands on, the pathology was really interesting. And again, the masochism came in, like, let's just choose the hardest, most unsociable line of work to do. But yeah, so I think ever since I finished up medical school, I knew that that was the line of work that I wanted to go into.

Amanda Niehaus  10:34

And what what kind of surgery do you work in? 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  10:37

So I was in a training program for general surgery. Things have changed a lot since then. So I used to be totally fine being in hospital all the time, at all hours, not having a life outside of hospital. But in the last few years ever, since I had my daughter, and now my twin boys as well, it has really changed my perspective on life and what I want out of life, what I want to spend my time doing so I've definitely, in the last couple of years, really stepped back from that full time training position. But I was on the general surgery training progra. So that's literally everything from your neck, torso, abdomen.

Amanda Niehaus  11:19

Yeah. Okay. That's really interesting that you say that, because I feel like I have a similar experience in that. I, I kind of grew up thinking I was going to be a biologist. And that was what I was going to do with my life. And it was only after having my daughter, that I really kind of started writing more. And I wanted to, and like the thought of all of that sort of energy and time that we put into  academia or medicine or any of these kind of high intensity jobs. I needed a better balance.

Inda Ahmad Zahri  11:52

Yeah, for sure. And I think also a lot is, you know, TV does that. And certain work cultures do that they kind of glorify being busy, they glorify, you know, the hard, hard stuff that you have to do. When I was in medical school, that's when Grey's Anatomy came out. And, you know, there are all these interns like slogging through and sleeping in corridors and stuff like that. And and somehow that was meant to be cool. But that's not what, that can be your life a little bit., when you're young, and you're single, and no one's waiting for you at home, you don't have any dependants. Yeah, for sure. Just like, you know, go for it. And that's, I think what I did, but it's not really sustainable unless you have a way to have an outlet, maybe even have breaks in between. And when I started thinking about cutting back on surgery, or having a break, I felt really guilty. I thought, oh, my gosh, I'm just you know, how can I be so weak? Or am I giving up? All this kind of stuff, which was really just just me stressing about the wrong things. Because it's actually a lot more normal than I thought to feel this way. And I think even in my profession, even in surgery, people are starting to realise more and more the value of mental health and emotional well being.Trying to sustainable Yeah.

Amanda Niehaus  13:22

And I feel like, we also get into this thinking, this mode of thinking where we have to stay on the same path. And if we if we change direction, then that means we've wasted time, we've gone the wrong way. I feel like too it cab also kind of be, it's all sort of steps on the same path. We don't know how yet. Do you? Is there anything from your medical training or your surgical experience that you find inspires your creative writing in some way? 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  13:52

Yes, definitely. I think it doesn't have to be separate, like, a lot of people are a lot of different things at once. But like you say, some people think that they just need to be this one thing forever and ever. A friend of mine, Sherry Ryan, who's also a doctor, and she is also a children's writer,  she said to me when I was talking to her about should I you know, how long should I do this? Should I try something else?Once I felt like, you know, my writing was was kind of taking hold. Should I take a break from surgery and feeling all of this massive guilt and doubts. She said, being a medical student or being a medical doctor, it makes you a pluripotent stem cell. You have all of this potential inside of you. But there's nothing to say that you can't then develop into you know, this or this or this. There is a Facebook group called Creative Careers in Medicine that has a huge following. And I love that group because every single day somebody comes up and says, Hi, I'm you know, this person I've trained in this field and yet I have these other interests. Please help me diversify. And then a dozen other people will come come up and say yes, this is how you do it, you know, let's do it together. But there certain, certainly you have traits. And I would say I have surgical traits I guess. In even in creative writing, or art and illustration, I like to be really hands on, I like to get my hands dirty. So  with art I do a lot of online courses from domestica, Skillshare, or YouTube and things like that. And I always skip ahead, when there's a tutorial where there's a lot of waffle at the beginning, I just go get to it, come on who's got this time? I just, I just want to kind of get into the practical, you know, side of things. So I think the way that I learn and process and retain information certainly has a bearing, you know, from my surgical surgical training. Yeah, I think so. AndI think the power of observation as well, I think that in creativity, and in you know, science, they both benefit from very intense observations. And I found when I started drawing that, in my opinion, there's, there's nothing more. There's nothing that makes me notice things more as when I start to try and draw it, like, I'm doing an animal character, illustration course at the moment and one of our daily tasks is to just pick a letter, say, well, we know we're on C. So you want  to draw cats or chameleons or something, and then find some references and just sketch just like try not to make it too perfect, just sketch it out. Get as many poses as possible. But I'm, I'm paying attention to like the negative space around that animal. Where does the crest meet the head, where does tail what angle it fits onto the body and stuff. And I don't get that intenseness by just watching a documentary, or just by reading about it. It's when I'm actually trying to follow it with my own hand that I really have an appreciation to the nitty gritties of life and of nature. 

Amanda Niehaus  17:14

Yeah, that's beautiful. What are some of your favourite courses that you've done?

Inda Ahmad Zahri  17:20

For art and illustration? 

Amanda Niehaus  17:22

And for writing.

Inda Ahmad Zahri  17:25

 Yeah. All right, let me think. So domestika.org, I go there a lot. I spent a lot of money there. It's, it's, most of the instructors are Spanish or Portuguese speaking. So a lot of it is captioned. But I know a little bit of Spanish as well. So you know, it's nice to just sort of hear that, hear that language. And they have fantastic formats and layouts for their classes. I really love those and they do everything from like watercolour to digital art, I use procreate a lot on the iPad for things like ceramics and crochets. They do all of that. 

Amanda Niehaus  18:08

Do you do ceramics as well? 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  18:11

No, I don't do I don't do ceramics. I used to do polymer clay a long, long time ago, but I don't do ceramics as well. And Skillshare is another favourite hobby of mine, just because again, they have like a million different courses that you can kind of choose and pick. So those two would be sort of my go twos for yeah, illustration and art.

Amanda Niehaus  18:42

And you so during your your training as a doctor, did you did you start taking writing courses then? Or did that come after? 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  18:50

Um, I feel like, I feel like I've always written even before medicine and surgery, I've always kept a diary. When I was in uni, I kept up a blog that my mom read but at least I felt like I was putting some writing out into the world. And I've always wanted to be a writer. And I thought, you know, one day the story will come to me and I'll write my book and it'll be up on a shelf with my name on it. But then nothing really, I never got, I didn't have a story yet, like life with a capital L hadn't happened to me yet, I think. And I didn't, I didn't really take writing courses per se. I think I worked on it just by doing it all the time. But once I once I started writing picture books, which was back in 2017. That's when I kind of purposefully start writing with a view to submit and publish. And that's when I came upon this incredible writing community here in Brisbane and then online as well and found that there were resources everywhere.So I'm a member of the Queensland writers centre. And that's where I met you because you had a writing course with Jess. And so I took workshops like that just every once in a while when I could. I said I listened to 'So You Want to be a Writer' podcast, it's one of my favourite podcasts as well. And they're obviously run out of the AWC I've done some AWC, Austrian Writer Centre, just sort of self paced kind of tutorials as well. Yeah.

Amanda Niehaus  20:34

 Yeah, I love I love writing courses. Like, I don't think I'll ever stop needing  that extra motivation.

Inda Ahmad Zahri  20:42

Yeah, I like the structure. I feel a bit like a course junkie. And I actually sat down yesterday and thinking, right, I need a budget for 2022. Because I cannot just go on bleeding money into every single course that comes up. So but just that structure and and prompts, I love the prompts that happen during these courses, like somebody will say, alright, for 10 minutes, we're just going to do this. And then often that has developed into something bigger later on. And and yeah, just the visibility of it. Like somebody is watching you doing this work instead of you sitting in a desk, getting up every five minutes.

Amanda Niehaus  21:26

Yeah. So what what is your normal writing process? Are you a getting up every five minutes type? 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  21:34

Ah, are you? Have you ever tried the Pomodoro Technique? I do? 

Amanda Niehaus  21:40

Well, so I've started a PhD this year. Yeah, creative writing. And some of my fellow PhD students, and I get together every Wednesday and do the Pomodoro. And, yeah, I'm really rubbish. Because I tend to get distracted and do other things that are not my writing. Yeah, they need to be hard on me.

Inda Ahmad Zahri  22:01

You have to switch off your Wi Fi.

Amanda Niehaus  22:03

 Yes, you have to.

Inda Ahmad Zahri  22:07

 I don't know if I have a writing process. So I, I write. And this is just me being greedy. And my husband tells me all the time to just focus on one thing, but I can't. So I write, I write picture books. I have like this constant carousel of picture books happening all the time, there are quite a few manuscripts that I've written and are sitting with my agent right now. So she's shopping them around. I have written a draft of a middle grade novel, which is now with a mentor because I won the AAC Mentorship Award for it. 

Amanda Niehaus  22:43

Congratulations!

Inda Ahmad Zahri  22:44

Thank you very much. And then there is an adult novel, a science novel that's sitting in a drawer somewhere as well that I've, I've parked for a little while. And I think, I think I need to get back to it soon. And then in between, I'll write a little bit of verse or, or, or something. So there's always, there's always little bits of everything, I'm always chipping away at different things. So I can't say that I have like a start time and an end time every day. I wish I wish I did. But as you know, from just trying to schedule this, this interview that my life is dictated by babies and also some other stuff. Byt I would say that I mull over things a lot. And then I almost now, that I've been kind of purposefully doing it for a little while I I recognise when something starts to take shape in my head. So this, you know, constant flow of things in my head. Some of them might be writable, some, some of them are just random thoughts. But when something starts to really take shape, then that comes to the forefront. And I mull over it a little bit more. And when it has some kind of form then I try and set it down on paper. So I have a notebook with me all the time. Like it's always in my hand that when I go out, even if I never actually, you know, write anything in it. In that trip, I still need it there. It'll be like next to my bed, even though I know I'm not going to wake up in the middle night to write it. But I just feel better just just in case I get that idea or a sentence. So I always have a writing implement on me. And I think what tends to happen is I'm squeezing in all these little cracks, you know, creating in the cracks kind of thing. But when I do have some time to sit down, then I have these jumbles of notes and ideas and I'll put them together on a word processor or a piece of paper or something like that. And then then then that becomes sort of like, semi formed and mature and I'll work on it till it's finished. Yeah, yeah. They're a messy process.

Amanda Niehaus  24:55

And that's it's interesting too, because I think there there might be... well, so, so having worked on the different types of fiction, from picture book to middle grade to an adult novel, how do they challenge you if these different forms in their different ways? 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  25:18

The picture books challenge me with restrictions. You know, it's usually 500 words or less, that's what we're aiming for. It's 32 pages. And it's also like, you know, show don't tell, and remember, there's illustrations there. So don't, you know, don't you don't have to say, "there was a boy with blond hair and a red hat," because the pictures are going to show that. And also, it's for an age group, where you really have to kind of engage them at a different level as well. So it's, it's thinking around that it's a lot of kind of like planning and putting pieces of a puzzle together, and then slashing lots of words. And I love that I love that it's so hard. To dissect, dissect. Because when it comes together, that it's so pleasing. And I think that's what I like about surgery and art and writing is, well, it's like you have that you have that outcome, you can see what it looks like at the end. If you walk into the middle of an operation, you walk into a theatre, it looks like a dog's breakfast, it really does it, you can't see any lines, you don't know what organ, someone's holding up. But at the end, it looks nice, at the end, it's beautiful. And it's a bit like that, and I push through, I'm painting as well, because, um, when when I started getting time off from work, I, I did my very first sort of like in person watercolour class, because all of the time I've been doing, you know, YouTube and stuff, and now I had an art teacher, Iwas excited. But there's stages through painting where you know, the first 60% looks really blah. You don't know how you're ever going to fix it. But if you push through, then it ends up being something nice at the end. Anyway, I digress. What was the original question?

Amanda Niehaus  27:22

 Oh, no, it's just about the different forms.

Inda Ahmad Zahri  27:26

 Yeah, so picture books. That's what I like about it. Um, middle grade. I, what I like about middle grade is, you know, the agea of kids reading that is sort of eight to twelve, eight to fourteen. And that's such a, such a, like, fertile age, I think for the mind and for stories. And I remember loving—and I still do—stories with a lot of magic. And so that's what I love about writing, you know, anything's possible, let's just make it as magical as possible. And so my, the, the middle grade that I'm working on is kind of like an adventure fantasy. So that's what I love. And then my adult writing I guess, it's just what what I like to read I like, I like literary fiction, I like stuff that has a lot of science in it, and nature in it. And I think well, like everything is nature, right? So there's very little that doesn't have nature in it, but I love I love writing that kind of like you can tell that the writer has all of their senses open to the world and it comes through in their writing. And so I like being able to kind of play in that when when I'm writing that as well. Yes. 

Amanda Niehaus  28:54

And who are some of your favourite writers who do that because because I love I love that kind of writing to that sort of immersive all senses feeling.

Inda Ahmad Zahri  29:01

Yes, yeah. Um, I love , Michael Ondaatje is one of my favourite routings. Yeah, so 'The English Patient' is one my all time favourite books, but his latest ones are pretty good as well. 'Warlight' was like, Ooh, this is this is good. This is almost as good as 'The English Patient' but not as good. I like Alex Garland. He wrote 'The Beach', which is ages and ages ago. Do you remember that one? 

Amanda Niehaus  29:33

I never read the book. I saw that. I saw the movie with Leonardo DiCaprio 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  29:37

The book is so much better!

Amanda Niehaus  29:39

Little baby Leo!

Inda Ahmad Zahri  29:40

Little baby leo! And I think who else? Some of the books I've read recently. I discovered this Canadian writer named Emily St. John Mandel. Have you read her?

Amanda Niehaus  30:00

'Station Eleven' 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  30:01

Yes! How incredible is that? That's crazy. And, you know, wow, like, so I've read that one 'Station Eleven' . And then I read 'The Glass Hotel', and I'm now just putting a hold on all of her books. In the library. She's so awesome. And 'Station Eleven' ,I don't want to give it away, but I guess it has a scientific nightosphere story. But it's not. It's not all about that. Like, it's not just this sort of futuristic science fiction kind of thing. It's everything is like, you know, human lives. It's human expression and emotions. But really, she just kind of really brings you into the narrative with with her senses, I think. 

Amanda Niehaus  30:52

And, yeah, and the value of the value of art is huge in that book, which I love seeing how, how humans are just drawn to perpetuating art, even when yes, it doesn't make any sense. Maybe? Yeah. Have you read Robbie Arnott? 'The Rain Heron'?.

Inda Ahmad Zahri  31:11

No.

Amanda Niehaus  31:12

 I reckon that's, that's one of the books that I've read in the past year that had that real kind of tangible, world feel. And he's so he's a Tasmanian writer. And I think it's something too, that Tasmanian writers do really well, in particular, the beautiful place that they live. 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  31:31

Yeah, absolutely. 

Amanda Niehaus  31:33

Yeah. But I can totally recommend that one for you. 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  31:37

Yeah, I'll definitely go and look it up. 

Amanda Niehaus  31:39

Yeah. And you said, your, um, your novel that you're working on has some science in it? Do you talk a little bit about that? 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  31:47

Um, I feel like I shouldn't say too much. Because, um, yeah, I feel like you say, like, I've, I've, I have a rough draft a bit. And then the beginning, I've shown to different people for assessments and stuff like that. So it's not like it's a high trust secret, like, some of it has gone out in the open. But it's just that because it's been in a drawer for so long. Already, in my mind, some changes have taken place, I feel like I'm going to do a massive rewrite on it. But what I can say is it has massive elements of surgery, um, and the environment and the ocean. So some of my some of my great loves. Yeah. So that's all I can say for now. And also, I don't know, if you feel about the same way about this with whatever you're writing now, or about to write next, but the world has changed. Like, you know, you might draft something in 2018. And then if you're redrafting it now and you go like, now do I put masks on everyone? You know what I mean? 

Amanda Niehaus  32:49

Yeah. No, because my current my current book is contemporary. And, and it was ridiculous, because I decided I started writing it pre COVID. So probably 2019. And, and, of course, I set it in Sydney. And  then I, I've had to, like fight to get to Sydney the few a few times in the last year to do you know, on the ground research,  but also I'm like, I can't I can't add COVID into this world that I'm writing. So I have to make sure it's kind of that ate 2019. Where the readers will know what's coming. My my characters won't but yeah, like moving forward. I don't know. It's, it's crazy. It's gonna be interesting to see what people do art-wise around this. So you are inspired by nature and the ocean. Can you talk a little bit more about where these loves came from? Was this like something that came from, you know, where you grew up, or something that developed over time.

Inda Ahmad Zahri  34:00

A bit of both, I never really grew up near the ocean, like I grew up in Kuala Lumpur, which is, you know, a big city in, in Malaysia. And spent some time of it, you know, a lot of my childhood also in a rural town when my grandparents lived when, you know, my parents were busy working and things like that. So it wasn't really but but we would go to the ocean for holidays. And I remember  this feeling as well as a little kid like when you get that first glimpse of that blue horizon when you know the ocean is near it just you just feel different. You feel like you know, the day is already getting brighter. And my mum used to say that as well. When I was a kid, I'd get really excited when we were near the ocean. So I've always loved the ocean. And when I was, when was it? Oh, just just right after I finished medical school, I think I came back to Malaysia and my flatmate decided to come and visit and we thought we'll do something different. Let's go and learn scuba diving. So we went to East Malaysia and stayed on this little dinky Island, very, very close to a marine reserve park. And it was incredible. Like, we really spoiled ourselves by doing our first ever scuba dives in that area, because they were like, every single dive, there were 20 turtles there were, you know, beautiful corals, lots of fish, sharks, everything. It was just incredible. And, and I did that I was I was 25. And I thought, why did I take 25 years to do this, like, this is where I belong. I loved I love, love, love, loved, just not only just being in the ocean, but being able to breathe underwater, and then now observe, you know, creatures at these depths. And that became a massive obsession for me. So I went on to do you know, the next few steps in the padi, scuba diving, you know, courses. I did my intern year in the UK, and then decided that I wasn't going to stay. Partially because I knew I was going to do surgery. And they had this really strict allocation system at the time. And I didn't have any surgery in my second year, and they wouldn't let me swap. So I thought, well, you know, that's good enough excuse for me to kind of spread my wings. Some people were talking about going to Australia, so I thought, yeah, I'll give that a go. But that meant that I had just, you know, it meant that I had quite a few months before the hospital year ended between when the year ended in the UK and start up in Australia, they started different times. So I went backpacking in Central America, and I stayed in an island called Utila in Honduras, which is known for diving, just everybody just went diving there, I think, because there's a whale shark migration path every year. Yeah. So I actually arrived at the end of whale shark season, I got to see one whale shark. But, you know, a few weeks before I arrived, people were seeing tonnes. But I spent a few weeks there doing getting my divemasters certification. And then I just, I just, I just love diving. So everywhere I went, I would fit in a dive somewhere. And, you know, it was there was this, like, there's just so much to the ocean. Like, where do you begin and where? Yeah, and so, I just love the feeling of being in the water. Yeah. 

Amanda Niehaus  37:27

Yeah, it really it. It really sort of reminds you how small you are.

Inda Ahmad Zahri  37:32

Yes, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I just end that, um, you know, I hit sounds really corny, like, you know, standing on the beach, looking out to the ocean. But I do that sometimes. And myself, like, you know, look at how vast the ocean is. You don't even know what's underneath it. It's like, it gives you that feeling like you say of being so small in comparison, but that's helpful as well, when you feel like the world is so overwhelming. So yeah, it's I think outdoors is just invigorating. 

Amanda Niehaus  38:04

Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to talk a little bit about your latest picture book 'Night Lights'. Yep. Which is based on the time that you used to spend at your grandparents' house. 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  38:18

Yes, it's inspired by that time when, I think for lack of childcare or whatever, my parents and my cousin's parents used to, you know, leave us with our grandparents during the week, at least, and they'd come up on a weekend. So it was really I remember this time when, you know, my parents were weren't there all the time. And that was totally fine. Because we had each other and we had our grandparents. Yeah. So that was the inspiration for it. 

Amanda Niehaus  38:48

Yeah, that's beautiful. And they and they lived out in the country?The pictures in the book are very lush. Are there like the tiger geckos? 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  39:00

Yeah, there's, there's lots of geckos as monitor lizards, like massive ones.  Um, so I mean, in present day it is more of a little town rather than right in a countryside. But certainly, there's lots of areas in Malaysia where, you know, you still have those villages with wooden houses on stilts. Deep in a jungle or at the fringes of a jungle and everything's really really lush and tropical. There are certainly monkeys outside of my grandparents house. You know, those monitor lizards are a total pest like like they just come walking like strutting down, you know, through the trees like a big dinosaur, and then we'd freak out because we didn't want to get bitten. They run across the other way, and then they would slink into the little kind of, we have these massive drains outside of outside of the house like you have the road and then you have the drain on either side of it. I think it's just a water catchment thing because it's prone to flooding. And if you look into those drains, you'd find one of those monitor lizards just swimming around  happily, freaking out the kids. Yeah. And, and, and Malaysia is just such a, it's just such a lush country. Like there's greenery everywhere. Even in the heart of Kuala Lumpur, you see a lot of greenery. A lot of that is threatened by palm oil plantations.

Amanda Niehaus  40:32

Even still? I thought we were over palm oil? 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  40:35

No, no. And it's, it's, you know, like, I, it's a huge source of income for a lot, you know, for a huge part of the population. And then these, you know, these businesses or these plantations also allow families who are otherwise really poor farmers to be able to send our kids to school to university and things like that. So I get that.  But also, it's such a huge and I think the leadership has to be there, like somebody has to say, listen, okay, cool. This is this is one way we can make money and have a natural resource, but also how wonderful it would be if we didn't reduce, you know, a million different species down to just one species. And a part of me, I think, also goes well, at least it's not the concrete jungle, at least it's, you know, a palm oil plantation, you still have kind of animals going through and stuff like that. And I know that's not good enough. But you know, this, there's just different stages in the evolution of trying to be sustainable, I suppose. But yes, like you'd we'd we drive through the country and this unmistakable, sort of like, the spikes of the tops of the palm oils, you know, compared to the other types of trees that are around. But one of one of my, one of our last holidays back to Malaysia right before COVID hit, and we couldn't travel anymore was to a forest reserve at the top of the country, like in the north of the country called Belum forest reserve. And they were saying that it's a rainforest that's even older than the Amazon. And that was incredible. Like, you know, we went up to see trees that were massive that would need like, 30 people linking hands around it.  Yeah. Just incredible, incredible nature. And, and I think that to a smaller scale, Lesley did a really good job of like trying to bring bring out lush leaves and flowers and insects and stuff like that as well. Do you know how hubs Lesley ever been to Malaysia?  I don't think so, she's got to go! She is actually very well travelled. And she does amazing travel photography as well. I don't think she's been to Malaysia. But at the start, a year before she started illustrating 'Night Lights', she's working on a different project. And she has such a detailed style that it takes her close to a year to finish one picture book. Yeah, so she said, you know, tell me about your life when you were a kid with Tok-Mak and Tok-Bah, my grandparents, and tell me about your cousins and, and if you have pictures show me. So I sent her a whole bunch of pictures. And I think she did a lot of her own research as well. And my job really by then was just to kind of tweak little cultural things that might come up in the clothes or background, and just kind of confirm what what kind of flora and fauna that she thought would be in in that area. And, and she just, she just went to town!

Amanda Niehaus  43:48

 It's one of those books that that I always loved when my daughter was young, because you can look for the little things that are within it's it's like a very full visual. Yes. So many different things to look at. 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  44:03

Yeah, that's  right. Incredible. I'm in awe of  art. Yeah.

Amanda Niehaus  44:10

 Um, could we hear some of one of your picture books? Would you mind doing a little reading for us?

Inda Ahmad Zahri  44:18

Well, I can do night lights. And it's it's 500 words.

Amanda Niehaus  44:24

That would be lovely!

Inda Ahmad Zahri  44:27

All right, wonderful. So 'Night Lights'. By, myself and Lesley McGee. When we were younger, our nights were not so bright. We live with our grandparents far from the city. Our rowdy reckless days were spent romping in the sweltering heat, spying on monkeys and dodging monitor lizards. We were a whirlwind of games and mischief, a chorus of laughter and song.  At sunset we tromped indoors, shadows took over the colours and shapes. Light bulbs flickered on inside our house. After dinner, Tok-Mak rolled out woven mats and we stretched out happily on the veranda. Tok-Bah told stories about when he was a policeman. Sometimes he was sent on night patrols. In the pitch black jungle their torches cast long, wavering shadows. What if there was a bear or a jaguar or python? Tok-Mak always laughed at the stories. In the half darkness she pinched the ends of runner beans and sliced ginger roots for tomorrow's meals. Her sarung was streaked with red dust from the yard, which she swept every evening. Her blouse was a patchwork of pockets held together with pins, yet she had the most magical things hidden away. Jars of cooling rice powder, safflower rouge, and orchid scented perfume. Gold bracelets with fishhook clasps. She saved them lovingly for festivals and feasts.The moon was a skinny crescent stars studded sky like pearls. Crickets chirp in rhythm with the geckos. Flying termites fluttered near the ceiling, dancing too close to the bare bulbs. When the generators flooded to a halt, Tok-Mak brought out oil lamps in the glass chimney of flame shot up then settled into a warm glow. Tok-Bah held his lantern like a bucket. "Come and see the lights!" In the garden, he stopped by a guava tree and hid the lantern behind him. We were plunged into darkness, but only for a moment. Flecks of light floated along the long grass like raindrops falling upwards. Fireflies, he said, find each other by the twinkling in their bellies. We crossed the garden past Tok-Bah's blue vespa. A pair of eyes flashed underneath. We jumped in fright and the eyes jumped with us. The startled meow and a flick of a tail. Tok-Bah waited near his flowers, ready to hide his lantern again. This time the ground wriggled in blue and green lights. "There are fireflies here too!" "No little ones. These are glow worm beetles. They only shine this way when they are very young. Because it is a special time in their lives." "Just like us!" Tok-Bah laughed. "Yes. Just like my little ones." A gentle breeze ruffled the orchids, spilling the sweet scent of Tok-Mak's perfume. We looked back to see her raising a lamp and waving us to come to bed. We chatted as we snuggled together, Tok-Mak and Tok-Bak blew out the lamps one by one. Our chatter turned into whispers, as the last of the night lights went out. We closed our eyes and fell asleep. The end!

Amanda Niehaus  47:56

That is so beautifully written Inda!  The actual, like the craft of your writing. The words that you've chosen are phenomenally like they're interesting, they sound wonderful. I'm just that's it's beautiful.

Inda Ahmad Zahri  48:12

 Thank you. Thank you so much. That's really kind. 

Amanda Niehaus  48:13

It's also the kind of books that we all need right now. When we're kind of not travelling. We willl definitely post details where people can where people can find your books. This one and 'Salih' which is also a wonderful story and based on refugees.  Did you want to talk about that just for a couple moments? 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  48:49

Yeah, sure. So 'Salih'  is a story about a little boy who, you know, has imagined he's like a turtle carrying his home on his back. And he's making his way to the sea with other refugees. And he has to cross it, and they they're doing it with a lot of trepidation, but a lot of fear because they don't even know where they're gonna end up. And I wrote that. I've always been interested in the plight of refugees. I volunteered with refugees when I was in medical school. And obviously, there's a lot coming in through the news in the recent years. And I wrote this sort of around 2017, 2018. And there was a massive exodus of people out of Africa and the Middle East crossing over the Mediterranean trying to get to safety. And a lot of it was just so horrific and you you, you just wish and pray that you're going to get to some, you know, some semblance of safety and happiness at the end of it, but we know that that's not even true for a lot of people. They just kind of carry on having a lot of hardship. That is also when I was a new mom, and I think if before I used to wonder what it would be like trying to make that journey, you know, just as myself, I start to wonder how would I make it with a child? Like a lot of people do. And then I start wondering, how would I make that journey as a child? Like how, how is that journey to a child who, you know, really should be just living an innocent, playful life? And that was the inspiration for it. I think. I later read that in 2018, alone, there was like 139,000 people who made that journey across who arrived after making that journey across the Mediterranean Sea. And who knows how many did not make it? Yeah, so it was a little bit of I felt like it was an important story to tell. And I made sure that there was a lot of kindness waiting for them at the end of the book, because I felt like sometimes that's lacking in real life. But why shouldn't we have a lot of kindness waiting for people who need them? And yeah, so it was it was interesting trying to pitch it to a younger audience.

Amanda Niehaus  51:26

 love the the whole idea of the turtle like and yeah, carrying your home on your back. 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  51:33

I also wondered whether if you're so you know, traumatised by experience you get out of it by imagining yourself to be somebody like making a game out of it. I remember, have you seen Life is beautiful with Roberto Benigni. And how he always tried to make it a game for his son. That was so sad. I always cry when I watched that movie. And, and, Anne once again, just kind of, you know, drew all the images with such poetry. It's so evocative, and I love how because even even I myself was wondering, Oh, I wonder how we're going to put that turtle in it. Like, could she be a turtle and turn into a human being? But she kind of just blended the two together. It was really beautiful.

Amanda Niehaus  52:20

 Yeah, that's beautiful. Um, is there anything that you're working on right now that we should sort of keep our eyes open for? 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  52:29

Um, so there's lots of things in the works. I do have my third picture book is coming out next year. And that is, so it'll be at the end of next year. That's with Affirm press. It's called 'Twice'. And that's inspired by my latest adventure, which is having twins. Um, and and as I mentioned, that middle grade novel that I'm working with Robyn Sheahan-Bright on with the mentorship. Snd November's coming up, so NaNoWriMo. Are you doing it?

Amanda Niehaus  53:13

That is a very good question. I always I always sort of tell myself, Oh, maybe this year, I should do it. And then no, it just becomes too much. Do you? Have you done it before? 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  53:23

I've done it before. I've done it more successfully as Camp NaNoWriMo. You know how they have it, they open it up as a Camp NaNoWriMo in April and  July or something like that, I go work up towards that. So I've done one of those and gotten to 48,000 words or something like. So that was the most successful, but I have also done NaNoWriMo and quit like after 1000 words. So so who knows where I'll get to this year, but but I'm gonna give it a shot. I think that I think that novel needs to come out of the drawer sometime. And why not November?

Amanda Niehaus  54:03

Yeah, it's good. Yeah, no, no, you're you're reminding me that. A couple years ago, I convinced a friend of mine to do it together. And then I abandon her!

Inda Ahmad Zahri  54:16

Did she finish up though? 

Amanda Niehaus  54:18

She didn't quite make it to the end. But she got like 12,000 words. 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  54:22

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. 1000 words more..

Amanda Niehaus  54:28

She didn't quite hate me. Well Inda it has been an absolute pleasure talking with you today. Thank you so much.

Inda Ahmad Zahri  54:38

Thank you so much!

Amanda Niehaus  54:40

Yeah. And best of luck with your reading and with the twins and everything that's going on and your next box. 

Inda Ahmad Zahri  56:02

Thank you. Thanks, Amanda.