Healing, Hope & Digital Freedom: Dr. Peter Kleponis on Restoring Lives and Relationships

In this episode of the Covenant Eyes Podcast, Theo McManigal sits down with Dr. Peter Kleponis—Catholic therapist, author, and creator of the Integrity Starts Here recovery program. Dr. Kleponis shares his 30-year journey into counseling, his discovery of a growing digital-behavior crisis, and how faith-centered healing can transform individuals, marriages, and even vocations.

He discusses:
• Why unwanted online habits often stem from emotional wounds, not desire
• How these behaviors impact trust and intimacy in marriages
• What spouses need to begin healing from betrayal
• The difference between a habit and a full-blown behavioral addiction
• How accountability tools and supportive communities foster long-term freedom
• Why prayer alone is not meant to “make the struggle disappear,” and how God instead walks with us through healing
• Practical steps clergy, parents, and couples can take right now to protect themselves and those they love

Dr. Kleponis also offers insight for parents navigating early exposure risks, tips for choosing a therapist, and encouragement for anyone ready to take the first step toward lasting freedom.

✨ Connect With Dr. Kleponis:
https://PeterKleponis.com
https://IntegrityCounselingPA.com

If this conversation encouraged you, please like, comment, and subscribe so more people can find this life-giving content.

#covenanteyes #accountability #faith

Try Covenant Eyes for FREE today!
Use Promo Code: FreePodcast


© 2024 Covenant Eyes, All Rights Reserved

Transcript

0:06

Hello everyone and welcome to the Covenant Eyes Podcast. I am your host today, Theo McManigal I. I'm the Catholic church outreach specialist. Karen Potter's doing well. We just thought we would give her a little bit of a break today. So, you know, just before we get into today's episode, please remember to like and subscribe, to our YouTube channel to continue getting our podcasts and our other great content. So I'm very excited about today's episode. We have with us, Doctor Peter Kelponis who in the Catholic world among therapists is definitely, someone I see as an expert on this issue of pornography. So we are very, very happy to talk with him. Doctor Peter, how are you today? I'm doing great. Thank you for having me today. Oh, thank you for coming on. So, so can you, just start by, And I know it could be, you know, a long story, maybe even a podcast episode in itself, but can you tell us and our listeners how, you got into being a therapist as well as how you decided to study more and specialize, in on this issue of pornography? Well, well, both both were kind of, sort of by accident, a little bit. So, my, my original career was actually in financial services, and, I realized early on that I'm not a number cruncher. But I liked helping people. I like talking to people. And helping them solve their problems and everything. So, we're going back 30 years ago now. Well over 30 years. I decided in my mid 20s to switch careers and retool. I went back to school, and when I had to go back to school at night for a year to get some undergrad credits and then grad school for three years at night, and finally, ‘97 got my Masters and, you know, began this, this journey as a therapy. Proponents who in years later, I therapists is definitely, someone I see as an expert on this issue of biography practice. So we are very, very happy to talk with him. Doctor Peter, how are you today? And how I got into specializing in pronouns. Thank you for coming on. So, so can you, just start by, what I noticed is, a long story, maybe even a podcast episode in itself. But can you tell us and our listeners how, you got into being there as well as were. Struggling. With how you decided to study more and specialize? In fact, for many of the married men, it was actually their wives that were calling up seeking help. So I noticed this trend, and I decided to study it a little further to really see what's going on out there. So I did my research, and what I discovered was that there was this whole epidemic of, internet pornography addiction going on out there. But nobody wanted to talk about it. Know, I'm just plugging in my computer here. Nobody wanted to say anything about it. It was still a taboo subject, but I realized that, hey, we got to do something about this. There are people that need help. So again, I went back to school and read what I went through, actually, four separate certification programs for the treatment and, sexual addiction. And then I just sort of became, you know, the, the, the expert in this field and, started doing a lot of speaking on it. What happened was in 2010, I was asked to give a conference to the priests of the Archdiocese of New York, which is very interesting. And, of course, when you do something for the archdiocese in New York, it's like playing at Caesars Palace. Everyone finds out about. The Archdiocese of the United States country talking about this, and then, you know, writing books and, and, you know, I created a recovery program. So, you know, it really became a passion of mine to help people who are struggling with this, both the people addicted to pornography and often spouses who felt really betrayed by this and dealing with betrayal trauma because of it. So that that is sort of been my journey here. And and your work on this is expansive. You've written books, you've as you said, you've been around a lot of the country. And the world, I think gives it right just to speak on this. And, yes. Obviously you're working with clients on, on this and, you're really, you know, having an impact on the way the world and the church approaches this. You also, along with your practice, you're involved, with, our friend organization, integrity restored. Yes. Which also is the name of your book, Integrity

Restored: 4:27

Helping Catholic families win the battle against pornography. And I think, isn't it also kind of the name of your practice or another one of your website? Okay. Well, I use integrity a lot, so, my book was Integrity Restored. And from that, we created our nonprofit educational organization and restored to, my, my recovery program is called Integrity Starts Here. Okay. And my counseling practice is integrity counseling services. So that's sort of the where the tongue kind of ties everything together. Which came first? Was it the book? The book came first. What led you to write the book? Well, actually, you know, going back, again, I think, or on 2012, I was invited down to EWTN, to be on that bank of the show, Women of Grace. You know, we actually did several episodes and it was really good. And she asked me if I would write a brochure for a little pamphlet for her, for her viewers that she could send out on pornography addiction and recovery. Well, that pamphlet ended up being 100 pages. So. So she said, okay, well, we will publish it as a little book. And we did. That was my first book, I believe it was published in 2012. It was called The Porn Act The Pornography Epidemic A Catholic Approach. And it was great, but I realized there was so much more that needed to be said about the so much more. And that's when I set out to write my next book, which was Integrity Restored. And I didn't realize that that became sort of a seminal work, because even though there were a few other people that were writing about this, such as not fraud and so forth, I was the only, you know, actual mental health professional that was working in this field, that was writing on this in the Catholic world, there was a lot, a lot of work done in the Protestant world. You know, it's it's amazing. You know, the Protestants, unfortunately, you know, they're light years ahead of us in this. You know, we Catholics, we have to catch up. Actually, fortunately, they are, because you know, they they've got some really great models there that I've worked with. And in fact, in the Christian world, most of my training in the treatment of sexual addiction is from various, Protestant, programs, which I am, I'm eternally grateful for. Definitely. So so again, so I. Including us here at cover, denies. Right. I mean, we were primarily a Protestant program. Yes, yes. It's excellent. Excellent. So so I wrote Integrity Restored. And it was very well received. You know, a couple of years ago, we actually did the second edition of it. So, so it's been really when I've been able to update it and I plan on continuing to update it. And then from there, you know, I developed a program for this for, helping Catholic men struggling with pornography addiction. And that's where my next book came from. And that was kind of interesting because as I was working on developing this program, I had a binder that I had full of papers and handouts and articles and all kinds of things that I was using for the men that I was working with. And it was a very successful program. And one day I looked at that banner, I thought, oh my gosh, I've got a book here. So so that became my, my sort of my workbook integrity starts here, which is my recovery program for pornography addiction recovery. And it's worked very well. And I'm actually, going to be soon starting on, on the new edition of that, again, because I always new information coming out, new modalities and things coming out. So I always want wanted new stats. Yeah. Yep. Updated. And then I realized, you know, I was working with a lot of couples, and there really was not. I'm not a lot of information out there for Catholic couples whose marriages had been affected by pornography addiction. And out of that came my fourth book, which is called Restoring Trust A Couples Guide to Getting Past Porn. Published by our Sunday Visitor. And, and that book was great because in it I discussed, you know, the addicted spouse and his or her disease, the traumatized spouse and his or her woundedness, and then also the wounded marriage and what needs to be done to heal that. So, you know, really covers everything. That's that that's needed there. You know, what happens to a marriage because of pornography is an addiction, but also how to heal that marriage. So every step of the way was just kind of noticing these different needs that were out there and working on trying to fill those needs. So, you know, it's it's not like I, you know, one day sat down and said, yeah, I think I'd like to do write four books now it's just, Rose, I figure, well, somebody's got to do it. It might as well be me. And that's how it all happened. That's fantastic. And we're eternally grateful to you for it. Let's elaborate on a little bit of the, the last one you were talking about marriages, pornography and marriages. Tell us about how, pornography use impacts marriages, how it damages marriages, and a little bit of what you do to help couples heal. Pornography use has an incredible impact on marriages. You know, because, you know, and it's a lot of it's because how many women view it, you know, a man may view pornography simply as images on a computer screen. You know, everybody does it. What's the big deal? But to his wife, those aren't images. Those are other women. All right. So for them, this is a form of adultery. It's a form of infidelity, you know. You know, and you think how how horrible it would be for a woman to discover that his her husband is having an affair with one woman. Imagine her finding out that he's having affairs with hundreds of women out there, because that's the way she views it, you know? And she feels hurt. She feels rejected. She feels inadequate. You know, she feels like there's no way she can compete. Because, of course, the women in pornography are always very young, and they have perfect bodies, you know? And of course, we all get older, you know, and our bodies change. And that has an incredible impact on. And so. So what they end up experiencing is actually a form of trauma, a form of post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, that we now call betrayal trauma. And it can take years to heal from that because it hits to the core. No. Where do I see more damage done by pornography use than to wives? It really hurts them very deeply. And this is what men have to realize. And I truly believe if every husband out there really understood how this would hurt their wives, no one would ever want to touch porn, right? It's like rat poison. You don't want to touch it at all. Yeah, and you know, that was my experience, right? I mean, I had a little fall during our engagement period. I was the one who came out about it, but I saw, and that was enough to keep me away. But for, you know, for this day forward not going on for years, but it's not typically magic like that, doctor Peter, is it? Getting married will solve my problem. No matter how it works. Oh, no no no no, because the issue it's not about sex. You know, men think, well, you know, I'm looking at porn because I want a lot of sex. You know, I'm in my 20s and the hormones are going crazy. I want a lot of sex. Now, if I get married and I can have sex whenever I want, that'll solve the problem. Well, that's also temporary. But most of the time they go back because the pornography you see is addiction. It's not about sex, it's about escape. That's what it is escaping into a fantasy world where you're in control. Right. So and it isn't you know, and it's, it's amazing because I work with so many men who are dealing with this addiction and they feel so much shame. They think that there is some type of sick pervert. And I say, well, look, the behavior is just the symptom. That's all it is. I'm not I'm not concerned about that. I want to get to the root of it. What is driving it. And 90% of the time that it has nothing to do with porn, you know, or nothing to do with sex. People say, you know, gee, you're a sex addiction therapist. How can you sit there and talk about sex all day? I tell them, I don't, I really don't, you know, some of some of the wounds that are fueling this, and that's what we're looking at. And given the reality that it isn't primarily about sex. So what is it that the betrayed spouse, typically the wife, needs to understand, in order to experience healing? Well, I think what has to happen with pornography is this incredible educational promotion, very similar to what was done with alcoholism. You know, today when people look at alcoholism, they don't look at it as a moral failing. They look at it as a disease that needs to be treated. That's the way we need to look at pornography addiction or any addiction. This is a disease that needs treatment. And when we can do that, when we can look at it as a disease, not a moral failing, what we can do is we can take the shame out. Because that is the most painful thing, you know, not only for the addicted person. You know, he granted he's feeling a lot of shame but spouses feel a lot of shame too. You know what if people found out about this. What what what people think of me? What would they think of my husband? You know, shame is is the number one factor that keeps things hidden in the dark and without they just growing faster. But when we look at this as a disease, not as a moral failing, then we can take out the shame and we can treat it the way it should be treated. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. No that makes so much sense. Now here's one question I want to ask about, you know, guys who might be in denial or what have you. And you've and you've said this before, and I've taken the three pillars to purity class that you guys did and integrity restored, by the way. And I, for any priest listening, it's a must do. It's a must do. And I can we can help you get set up with that. But, you know, there's you could use pornography but not have an addiction. Yeah. So how does how can someone discern that for themselves? Or can they discern that for themselves? Is it to the. Is it to the therapist to discern that? How does someone make that kind of determination? I, I if it's a habit or an addiction or what have you. And again you're right. You know, just like a person can have an alcohol problem and not be an alcoholic, a person can have a porn problem or not be a pornography addict, you know? But it really takes, you know, the eye of a trained professional to determine that, you know, really talking to a therapist that's trained in the treatment of addictions to really assess what we're dealing with here, because it can be very tricky with this, you know. But I'll tell you, you know, you know, the hallmark of an addiction is not how often you use the drug. The hallmark is the fact that no matter how hard you try, somehow you always keep coming back to it. Whether it's a couple of weeks later or a couple months later, you know, the fact that you always somehow keep coming back to it tells you that, yeah, there's a problem here. We may be looking at addiction and it should be checked out by a professional. Wow. And that could so that could even be whether it's once a day, once a week, once a month, Yeah. Interesting. Interesting that that's that's a different take than I think a lot of people would like, you know, and think of it like, oh, an addict doing it all the time. Not not necessarily. And then and then there's other things too, right? Like you're, you're hiding your behavior. You have particular shame about your behavior. I mean, granted, if someone doesn't have shame about using pornography, right, our Catholic sensibility would say, well, you should feel guilty, but, but that's now that's really interesting. You know, another aspect then, for, Catholics who asked about how pornography affects, marriages. What about vocations, priesthood, religious life? Oh, certainly. Our consecrated people in the Catholic Church aren't free from this either. So what effects do you see there? Well, just as if, pornography can destroy a marriage. It can destroy a vocation. It really can, because it totally consume a person's life, you know? And one of the things that that we find is that, you know, when it comes to the experience of shame, you know, single people, yes, they experience a lot of shame. Married people, more shame priests than religious. They experience the most shame sure haunted their vocation because of their position in society. They are held to a much higher level of accountability and morality. All right. Their standards of morality are much higher, and people judge them more harshly with that much more harshly. So, you know, when a person, you know, whether it's a priest or religious comes to me struggling with this addiction, they're dealing with an incredible amount of shame. But the sad part is, is because that shame, most of them never seek help and they will often suffer in silence. Now, oftentimes, as with any addiction, when that tolerance develops, you need more of the drug and the stronger form of it that can lead to other types of behaviors. You know, acting out with other people, which can lead to, you know, if any of that ever becomes public. An incredible scandal. And of course, if the other person happens to be a minor, there could be legal issues. It can be a disaster with this. So for people, you know, priests and religious, you know, there's some there's much more shame, and there's so much more, risk with that, so much more, you know, and whenever someone, you know, a priest really just comes to me for help, boy, you know, I say, you know, thank you for coming forward. Thank you. This is so important, you know, and I give them so much credit for doing that because it took a lot. They had to do a lot to overcome the shame to seek help. That's fantastic. One of the things that I don't, I don't even know how sensitive a question this might be, but for, you know, for the priest, for the religious who might just, you know, be typically caught up in porn watching and might want to take the step to come up, come to their, their vicar, their bishop, their superior, what what what do they like? Is that is that the way to go? Will they be given good help or are there strategies of of of of, helping these guys that the institution has right now that aren't effective? Tell me a little bit about that. Well, what I, what I tell I tell diocesan priest, I talk to your vicar for clergy, for religious priests, and, you know, religious men and women, brothers and sisters and nuns. Talk to your superior. Because I tell you, you know, I've traveled all over the country and internationally. I've spoken to vicars for clergy and bishops and superiors, and they all want to help these people. You know, there's this fear that that if I talk to my vicar or superior, they're just going to kick me out. No, they don't want to kick you out. They want to give you the help that you need. All right. And even and they are really appreciative when when someone comes forward to seek help because again, you know, you know, there could be a disaster if nothing happens. So when someone comes forward, they're not punished. They're, you know, the vicar or the superior will say, okay, let's get you some help here. Let's get you some help. And that's what happened. So I tell these people, don't be afraid to speak up. Don't be afraid to ask for help, because these people, they want to help you. That's that's really good. And the fact that you went around so much of the church in the country speaking about this, hopefully did a lot to help these, you know, bishops and vicars for priests, understand what good treatments and effective treatments are and what's really not necessary. Right. I could totally see a guy, a priest, being afraid of either being lay aside or shipped off to Saint Luke's Institute or something like that, where, you know, I mean, if we know that that. But but that probably isn't to typically this doesn't require inpatient treatment, doesn't. Know I, I'd say 90% of the time outpatient treatment is the best for it, you know. And let me tell you, you know, for the five years prior to Covid, for about five years, I'm sure I'll go to conferences a month all over the country, you know. And what that tells me is the very fact that I, that I was asked to speak at so many places tells me that that bishops and vicars and superiors, they want to know how to help people, they want to know how to help. That's what they're eager to do. So I tell everybody out there, you know, these people, they want to help you. They want to help you. And yeah, there may be some times when residential treatment is needed. So but 90% of the time outpatient actually is better is the best treatment. No. That's good. That's great. That's really good to hear. So hopefully any, you know, any priests, clergy pastors I mean, this is a problem on the Protestant side too, you know, hear that and can, you know, can take some consolation from that. I'd love to pivot a little bit to, just the reality that those of us who struggle with this, you know, we pray and obviously prayer and our spirituality, our relationship with God is so important. But, you know, in those early stages, you might be tempted to pray, oh, God, please take this away from me. And for so many, God does not. And yet could there be a value to the fact that it doesn't go poof? Could there be a value to the struggle? But how can someone reconcile their faith and the persistence of the struggle? And how can they find hope? Okay, people often ask me this, you know, and here's what I find. You know, most people, when they're struggling with this problem, they turn to God for help, which they should. But their prayer is usually something like, Lord, take it away, take it away, take it away. But then he doesn't take it away. And then they get frustrated with God and think that God doesn't care. Well, the fact is, God does care. The problem is that these people are going at it from the wrong direction. Instead of asking God to take it away, we invite got into it. Walk with us through this healing process. This is where you encounter his healing power, right? And that means getting help. How does God work in our lives through other people? You know, I tell people, if you break your leg, yes, you pray for healing, but you still have to go to the hospital and see a doctor and get a cast on. Right? That's how God works. So this idea that I'm going to take care of it by myself in private, I'm just going to pray it away. That doesn't work right. God doesn't work that way. Right? God works through other people, you know, and it's a process, you know, and and I and I tell people it's also about understanding God's permissive. Well, you know, there's active wellness, permissive well, you know, active well. Well, the fact that you're breathing in a log that's God's active will, permissive will. Well, God doesn't want people to suffer, but he allows it because he knows he can bring some good out of it. Right? So when we're walking with him every day in this healing process, guess what? We're also developing a deeper relationship with God. And what's God's number one desire for all of us to be in a deep, intimate relationship with him. And he's going to use everything he can, even our struggles to do that. So in this process, what are we going to encounter? Not only the freedom from the addiction, but also a deeper relationship with God, right. So for me, that's a win win situation. If I absolutely. Don't try to pray it away, it's not going to work. Invite God in to walk with you through this. That's where you're really going to experience the change. That's amazing then, because now what you have is that you have a realization that the the man who struggles with purity, but is praying every day is in a better position in God's eyes and living who he's supposed to be. Right? As people who are meant to be in relationship with God than the man who's pure but may not otherwise pray. Exactly. And the fact is, when you're doing that, you start to really notice how God is actively working in your life. He's not abandoned you. He's he's there every day with you, you know, through the people you meet, through the encounters you have all of that. You're going to start to see that. And again that this is where recovery actually gets a bit exciting. Definitely. And not only do we need God but we need other people. So what role would you say accountability plays in overcoming this habit or this addiction? And how can someone identify a good accountability partner? And, and who might be the best candidate for an accountability partner? Is it a priest? Is it a therapist? Is it a friend? Is it somebody anonymous? What do you think? Okay. Well accountability is very important because again you can't do this alone. We have a saying there there are no lone Rangers in recovery. You know, you need to surround yourself with other people that understand the struggle who are going to help you. They're going to support you and keep you accountable, and you do the same for them. It's a team approach. It's that team effort that really makes it worthwhile. And you ask what makes the best accountability partner? My advice someone else who also struggles with this, all right. Someone who really understands or really knows, because what's going to happen is if they get, a negative report, you know, obviously they're going to be calling you up immediately. And instead of, you know, waving their finger at you and saying what are you doing? You terrible, you terrible person, the very fact that they understand what you're going through, they're going to call you and you're going to say, hey, what's going on? Are you having a rough time? Is there any way that I can help? What can I do? All right. That's what makes it effective. Knowing that you've got these people are supporting you, keeping you accountable. All right. But also there to support you. And this is you know, and so having that there having you can really having that support is very important. Now that's not the only thing I've had people come to me say, well, you know, I'm just going to get covered in ice and that's it. And that's going to solve everything. It's not, it's not, but it is a very important component to a comprehensive recovery program that is needed for this. That does include support and accountability. Tony, tell us a little more about how you would say software or technology like covenant. Size fits into the process. Okay. Well, first of all, you know, it makes you really think every time you pull out your phone or you pull out your laptop or tablet, you know, what am I doing? What am I doing? Why am I here? What am I doing? You know, because if you know that that if you know anything, you know, even slightly questionable is going to get reported. You're going to think about what you're doing and where you're going and why you're doing this. You know, am I am I bored? Am I just going to doom scroll here? You know, am I stressed out? And I just want to disconnect from the world. What am I doing? And then, you know, you have to ask yourself, okay, is this the healthiest thing to do right now? Is this the healthiest thing? What should I be doing? So this is it. So so accountability kind of starts the ball rolling in. This thought process of where you're going and what you're doing. So so it's like you're not saying, okay, well I'm not going to look at porn because my friends going to find out about it. You know, you're thinking about, okay, why am I doing this? What is going on here? So like I said, that accountability is kind of a catalyst to get you on the better path. It's fantastic. So let's let's kind of look at we've talked about the person who, you know, oh I can stop anytime or whatever once somebody is has the integrity to admit okay, I have a problem here. I don't know if it's an addiction. I don't know if it's a habit, but I need some help. If that person doesn't know where to start, where should they start? Well, again, you know, it's finding a therapist who's trained to treat addictions. You know, could be someone like myself, a certified sex addiction therapist. So if you see the letters CSat after their name, that's someone that can help. You know, someone who is a just even a basic certified addiction therapist, you know, someone with CAC up to their name can help. But you kind of have to feel people out because unfortunately, there's still are a lot of mental health professionals out there that don't believe that pornography addiction exists. You know, they just kind of think that, well, some people have high libidos. It's like, no. So, but if you do get a CSat certified sex addiction therapist, you better believe they understand. Sexual addiction, and they can really help you with that. So finding someone like that, you know, and there's a website that people can go to for that, the website is sex help.com. Now sex up.com is run by the International Institute for Trauma and Addictions Professionals. This is the organization that certifies sex addiction therapists. I went through the whole certification program. Believe it or not, it takes three years to do this to to finish the program. But people who are trained in this are thoroughly capable of helping someone struggling with any type of sexual addiction. Now, you wonder, well, what about our Catholic faith? Well, season trained to incorporate a person's faith life into the healing process. All right, now, another website that people can go to is called Catholic therapists.com. And on there you can find local Catholic therapists in your area. And if you're lucky, it may seem like you're looking for a needle in a haystack. If you're lucky, you can find one that is also a sex addiction therapist. You know, maybe a little bit difficult, but you may be able to do that. So, but those are a couple of places where you can find people that will really help you with this addiction. And I'll tell you, you know, any good sex addiction therapist is going to tell you, hey, if you're going to be online anywhere, you need to be monitored. All right. That's it's a non-negotiable because we know that that is what is needed for effective recovery. One of the things that, comes to my mind as we are talking about this, and I think I told you this story before, but I was I got a call from a diocesan worker who said, hey, do you know where I can find a Catholic? Sees that, and, you know, you came to mind immediately, and then she's like, okay, well, just anymore, I want as many options. I mean, like you said, the needle in the haystack part really came to mind because I wasn't able to find a ton of them. But I think the question that this brings up for me is it's good that cats are trained to incorporate your faith. But for our listeners, Catholic, Protestant, what have you, how important is it that the therapist have the same faith as you? And I've heard different takes on this from different therapists. What's yours? Well, I believe it is very important, because, you know, and I know I unfortunately, we have this division in the church now between Catholics and Protestants and. Yes, you know, if you what I found that, you know, and I have a lot had a lot of Protestant clients. I actually have, you know, when they go to a therapist who happens to be a Christian Protestant, even if they're not of the same denomination, it still can work very well because there is a lot of overlap. But when it comes to Catholic and Protestant, you know, that can be difficult because, you know, it's not that, you know, one is against the other, it's just that you're coming from two totally different traditions. I'm sure someone coming from, you know, like, let's say, you know, a solid, you know, Orthodox Catholic background may not be able to relate well to a therapist who comes from a Southern Baptist background. Sure. You know, I'm sure two very, very different theologies there. So that could be a challenge there. It's not impossible. I know we're in situations where that's all they can find. Okay. That's great. You know, if if the therapist and client are really willing to work together on this, it can be successful for sure. Definitely, definitely. And, you know, in all my time of seeing a therapist individually, my therapist has always been Catholic. But I did spend some time in a group therapy even when I was in seminary, and that therapist was was a Protestant and he was excellent. It was a great therapist. Right. So it can work. But I mean, the choice of, you know, going to a group first, I mean, that's a whole other discussion. But I mean, you know, at the end of the day, it's going to be what's most important to the person. But if you can get somebody of your own faith, that's definitely a bonus. And the real key is okay finding what works for some people. Even though the decline in the therapist served two different faiths, it actually works for them. So sure. Yeah, I tell people, don't discount everything. You know, try, try whatever is out there. And you me, you'd be amazed at what might happen. Definitely, definitely. All right, well, I just want to speak to families and parents listening for a while first. What advice do you have for, parents to protect their children from early exposure? And because we both know the average age of first exposure is, nine years old. And then also, how can, churches, better support families in regard to this whole issue of pornography? Well, I think it boils down to education, you know, really educating children. You know, first of all, you know, for young children, we really need to protect them from this, you know, really do. And there's a lot of good resources out there. There. There's a wonderful book called Good Pictures, Bad Pictures. In fact, there's a couple of different versions of that for different age groups. And I tell parents, this is something you really want to read with your kids. You know, don't just give them the book and say, here, look at this. Now sit down and read with them to really help them understand that the internet is great, but there's some there's some bad stuff out there. But but definitely. So it's really about educating them and then it is protecting them. You know, there needs to be good safeguards, good filters. You know, on the use and I tell parents that even if you have good filters on the computer and the tablet and the cell phone, you never leave your child alone with the internet. Never. If they're going to be online doing anything, you need to be right with them, right next to them. Right? Because even the best filters in the world are not foolproof. You never know what might get through. So you really have to be there for them with that, you know? So so you have to do that for teenagers. You really have to educate them right now for teens that the filters don't work anymore. Then there's where accountability comes in. But again, it's about educating them. And I tell parents this isn't about sex, all right. This is about an addictive substance. We need to treat this like drugs and alcohol. And we really need to teach them about this. What this is all about. You know, now we also need to teach them about healthy sexuality and healthy relationships and healthy intimacy. That too, because we know that pornography is going to twist that and really warp their their sense of what that is. So, so it's about, you know, helping them understand what are the dangers of the internet, the dangers of pornography. You know how it is an addictive substance they want to avoid. And then again, what is healthy sexuality and what are healthy relationships all about? So for it really for the teenagers, it's a lot of education, a lot of it. Oh, fantastic. Well I, I know we're coming close on time here, so I'll ask one more question. You kind of a two part question number one, how can our listeners connect with you and or just, you know, learn more about your work, work, or can they find you online and then, what's, word of encouragement you might have with any of our listeners who are struggling with pornography? What's something they can do today? The word of encouragement is if you're struggling, you know, you can overcome this. You really can. But you can't do it alone. You need to reach out for help. That's the biggest thing. You need to reach out for help for couples. Let me give you the research on this for couples whose marriages have been affected by pornography use and addiction, if you don't seek out help, there is a 75% chance of divorce. Wow. If you do seek help, there's a 75% chance that you're going to heal your marriage and actually come out even better. Wow. So that's the research there. Those are the stats. Think about that. Yeah. Well, as as far as finding me, I have two websites. There's my own personal website. PeterKleponis.com. There's also my practice, which is IntegrityCounselingPA.com. Right. IntegrityCounselingPA, as in pennsylvania, .com. And you can learn more about our practice. Well, Doctor Peter, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. Thank you for all of the education you went through and all the work you're doing on this issue with private clients and your practice with, just in the church throughout the country and throughout the world, having educated so many of our leaders, with the work you do with the the great guys and integrity restored, definitely a friend. Ministry of ours, of Covenant Eyes. Thank you so much for everything you've done. And thank you for the time. And to our listeners, thank you for listening. If you liked this episode again, please like subscribe, comment. You get this, out there in the algorithm so that, more and more people can, hear about us here about Doctor Peter. So thank you so much for listening. Keep fighting the good fight to stay pure, for all of us here at Covenant Eyes, I am Theo McManigal. God bless you.