Boundaries to Have when Porn is in the Home: with Emmalou Penrod

Discover the subtle yet profound ways betrayal trauma can ripple through a family, as I, Erin Anderson, sit down with Emmalou Penrod, a family relationship coach who brings her deep expertise to the table. Together, we peel back the layers of the unspoken pain stemming from pornography in the home, delving into its ability to shatter trust, influence self-esteem, and hinder the formation of healthy emotional bonds. Emmalou lends her wisdom on the critical role of boundaries and interventions in safeguarding family well-being, and how children, often the silent witnesses to family tensions, may internalize and blame themselves for the discord.

The path to independence and self-love can feel like a tightrope walk, particularly when navigating a marriage affected by betrayal. In a candid exploration, I categorize husbands into three distinct types—mild, medium, and jalapeno—to illuminate the spectrum of supportiveness. We furnish wives with actionable strategies to forge autonomy and safety, from securing online employment to creating a nurturing community network. This heart-to-heart underscores the courage required to reassess the value of a marriage and the significance of self-care as a bulwark against challenging spousal behavior.

Wrapping up the discussion, I underscore the power of clear, intentional communication when setting boundaries in relationships. I guide a wife through the delicate process of addressing her discomfort with her husband's actions and the necessity of a united front against pornography within the household. I also remind listeners of the various support channels available, from my free Facebook group to Instagram, offering a space where our community can share, engage, and find solace in shared experiences. Join us for this deep dive into fostering resilience, setting boundaries, and building a nurturing family environment despite the trials of betrayal trauma.

For the Powerful and Profitable Trauma Informed Coach 5 Day Challenge, click on this link to join the challenge: https://www.kushlachadwick.com/5day-powerfulandprofitable

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:03

Hey everyone, it's Erin Anderson with the Erin Anderson B-Trail Trauma Coaching. I am super excited that you have tuned in today. Let's get talking about how to heal from B-Trail Trauma. Welcome to the other side of the struggle. This is a podcast where we talk about trauma, how to heal it and then how to take it and use it to unlock your mission and your potential and to use it to live your very best dream life. When you're dealing with B-Trail Trauma, it can be hard to know how to heal it, how to stop the pain and to know what your next steps are to take in your own life, and these are the questions that we try to answer here. Trauma has the ability to rob us of our joy and identity, which is why it's so miserable to experience. But with the right tools and with the right mindset, we can totally reclaim that joy and even use this trauma to strengthen ourselves, so that way, trauma does not knock us off of our joy again. Living your dream life should be a non-negotiable, but trauma tends to try to negotiate that with you and even though trauma is not something that we will completely ever be free of in our life, the pain is negotiable. This is why I created Aaron Anderson B-Trail Trauma Coaching and this podcast is because I want my listeners, I want my clients, to live truly live free from the prison that trauma can put you in. I want you to live on the other side of the struggle. Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the other side of the struggle.

Speaker 1: 3:37

I have with us another fabulous guest. Her name is Emma Lou Penrod, and Emma Lou is a mother, she's a grandmother, she's a former teacher and she's taken all of this experience and wrapped it together to become a family relationship coach. And I sat down with her, I have chatted with her, totally on board with what she teaches, because I feel like you've got that grandmotherly wisdom and who doesn't need that in this life right now? And you take on her experience with kids and bringing families together. Oh, she's a jewel, she's a gem. You guys are going to love her, and so we're going to be talking today about boundaries to have in the home when porn is present. Totally, I feel like this is something she can definitely talk to, because she's been working with families and special education needs in her children and in her students. Right, this was actually something that came up fairly commonly, so, without further ado, welcome Emma Emma Lou for being here.

Speaker 2: 4:49

Well, thank you, I am happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 4:54

So I really am glad you're here. By the way, this is going to be an awesome podcast and we were just talking, before we hit the record button, about some of the things you see porn effect. There's different relationship dynamics. You've got your relationship with money, your relationship with time, relationship with God, relationship with self, relationship with family, relationship with other people. There's lots of different places that we can actually put these relationships and you've seen what pornography does to the children, to the wife, and not only the husband. But when porn is in the home, tell us about what you've seen.

Speaker 2: 5:43

Well, what I've seen is first of all, there's that precious marriage relationship. Trust is lost. It's a betrayal.

Speaker 1: 5:53

Oh, it is.

Speaker 2: 5:55

Definitely. I think it affects the man's self-esteem. He no longer, you know, he may even hate himself or struggle with those emotional feelings feel, experience some shame or at least a dissociation from a normal, healthy, loving relationship. Now, when children are in the home, I ended my teaching career in a residential treatment facility for youth at risk and this was an issue. We were trained that when young children are exposed to pornography if they happen to get a look over dad's shoulder or open the laptop after dad's use it or whatever and they're exposed to pornography, it completely rewires their brain. They lose that ability to emotionally connect with other human beings. If this is not, if there isn't some intervention, if they then become addicted to pornography themselves and quite often they do then they can't. They're not able to view other people as human beings, their objects to be manipulated. And we were cautioned about this that if we're dealing with a student who had this history, that they would be very charming and pleasant, but it was in order to manipulate us, to be aware of that, that they don't have those normal, natural, healthy human feelings. Other people are just objects to be used and that, I think, is the biggest heartbreak to do that to a young child. So I just wanted to mention that, not to start out with the worst, but that is an impact that it does and even if they're not exposed to it they don't see it they're very much aware of the tension in the home.

Speaker 2: 8:14

Children are sensitive. We may think that, well, we're not saying anything in front of them, but they're aware energy is going somewhere else. They can feel. They can feel that and they tend to internalize and blame themselves. There's something wrong with me. I'm flawed.

Speaker 1: 8:39

Yeah, because they don't have the ability to conceptualize that. This is not them.

Speaker 2: 8:45

Right.

Speaker 1: 8:46

Or we've got mom and dad. These are the people that they are supposed to rely on, and in a child's mind, mom and dad can do no wrong. And so when mom and dad are not functioning properly or healthily. Yeah, like that is what the child thinks I'm the problem, I'm the one that's doing wrong, something's wrong with me, right. And so it creates actually a developmental trauma from a very early age, even if they're not exposed to it.

Speaker 2: 11:43

And that emotional strain of there are some things we can't talk about. I just have to deal with this on my own. That's just all heartbreaking.

Speaker 1: 11:56

It's so sad. It breaks my heart to see little ones struggling so badly with that, because a childhood, in my personal opinion, should be where the child can play, they're not afraid of what's going to happen, they're not afraid of mom, they're not afraid of dad, they're not afraid of the family splitting up. They literally kind of have a bit of a carefree environment, right? Because mom, and dad have provided that safety, but porn rips that away from them.

Speaker 2: 12:35

Well and think how it affects their mother. It could damage her self-esteem. She may begin to feel like there's something wrong with me. I'm not enough to satisfy my husband, and you can't teach children to be confident and to believe in themselves if you don't believe in yourself. Right, right. So I mean it's harmful to the woman. I mean that puts her severely, impacts her ability to provide that love and nurturing that her children need, you know Well, and she's got to take care of herself. Right, right, it's not selfish for a woman to want to satisfy her needs. You've got to fill your cup before you can.

Speaker 1: 13:31

Well, and not only that, I mean she's dealing with some majority of the mental load. You know in the home when you're dealing with kids and like the cooking and like the cleaning and the organizing, and oh, now this kid needs this and this child needs this, and there's always somebody tugging on her with a need, and when porn is scooping out her soul, in a sense, like there's really no better way to explain that, right, there's so little to give and so it does like it really causes a big crack in the foundation and in the safety of the home. So what happens to children's neural development, spiritual and emotional development? We kind of talked about like the emotional side of things, right, like obviously it's causing them to be feeling very unsafe, neglected, unloved, because neither parent is able to necessarily give what they need to give to these children, right. But what happens to their actually neural development and their spiritual development?

Speaker 2: 14:45

Well, I mentioned what happens if they're exposed to it. If they, it really changes their neural functioning. It alters them that way. But even if they're not exposed to it that you know they're. They're writing when they're very young, they're very impressionable and they're writing those mental programs that define how they view themselves, how they view the world around them, and so it impacts how they react, how they interact with others, how they feel about themselves. Yeah, absolutely. And it leaves them very, very much vulnerable. Yes, to be optimized.

Speaker 1: 15:38

Yes, it does, and you know here's the re like a man who is into pornography, it doesn't have the like. One of the first things it does is it actually deadens their perspective, their protective instincts, you know. And so it does. It leaves his family wide open to all kinds of attacks, not just spiritual attacks, but like physical attacks too, like it really does cause a lot of issues that way, you know.

Speaker 1: 16:11

So we've talked about like spiritual, like neurologically to you know, like what that does to a child is, it also starts to kind of create this you're an object kind of thing, right, in order to get their needs met. They learn to manipulate, they learn to do things that aren't healthy. Right, because we will do as humans we're, we are wired to survive, and when our needs aren't met in childhood, we will learn to do all kinds of not good things to try to get those needs met. And so this is where you start seeing people become sociopathic, or you might start seeing them become narcissistic. There's lots of other things. How do we get mom into a healthy place, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically? So that way, you know, we can start to help her feel like you know, I can give to these kids right, that I, that I can get to myself right.

Speaker 2: 17:25

Yes, now being, you know, mothering children in the best of circumstances requires a lot of strength, confidence, belief in yourself, self, love, the ability to love. So, in this situation, now she has this monumental task, this challenge before her. She will need this support. She will definitely need to get the foundation of having a strong connection with God herself, having deep faith, believing in herself, believing in her value. It's easy to assume, well, I deserve this or, you know, I'm flawed. Therefore, this is all I can expect. But if she can get that support, from whatever source, I firmly believe you know, turning to that higher power, you know God, and relying on that and understanding her true identity and her true worth as a human being, as a daughter of God, as one of his creations, and when she can stand strong in that knowledge and when she's taking some self-care, this is not selfish. No, taking some time to nurture her soul and pursue those activities that nourish her, whether taking a walk in nature, listening to music, pursuing a passion Some of these hobbies aren't just hobbies, they feed our soul.

Speaker 1: 19:27

So he needs that kind of support, I think, being able to talk to other women who are experiencing or have been through this, Right, and it was a caveat here too, like a lot of women, I wanna say like I've joined being a betrayal trauma coach, I've joined groups, I have listened to other women and you don't want to. If you're trying to heal from betrayal trauma, a husband's porn addiction, trying to put in that self-care, don't be talking with someone who is going to bash your husband. That's actually something that's very, very crucial to your healing. And the reason why is number one that brings in a very, very negative, very, very toxic energy to you, one that you don't need. You're already a negative, you're already in toxic and that puts you in a deeper deficit with yourself emotionally, right. Two, you're already dealing with some self-doubt.

Speaker 1: 20:35

Usually you know if your husband's still in a pornography, that feeling of what's wrong with me, right, that is very much there, and so you might start to question yourself and say, like, why am I dumb? Why would I choose him? Right, like all those kinds of things, you don't wanna go there? Okay, that only gets you deeper and deeper and deeper into your spiral. So if you're going to get support from other women, get support from women who are not going to bash your husband, who aren't going to like immediately tell you to divorce him. Or immediately, unless if he's being physical, abusive, right like, get away. But you want someone who can actually be compassionate with both of you, to actually both sides right.

Speaker 2: 21:21

Yes, you want the positive energy, not the negative energy. Yes, and you'll know, you'll recognize it If the person you're talking to helps you feel hope, helps you feel stronger, you're talking to the right people, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: 21:39

And you know, this actually brings us into the boundary right, cause we've got like four main boundaries that you and I had talked about about like, how, like what to set up to make sure that you feel safe in your home when porn is consistently attacking you and your kids, right, and the first one is is boundary number one is self care. That's not a negotiable. That might mean you might have to get a little creative right. I've seen husbands who are like, yes, honey, like I know I'm doing things that aren't right. I am really struggling to get it under control. Thank you so much for being patient with me while I work on this here. Let's let's like make sure you have a night off, do what you need to do to get your care in right. Like let's see how I can like let me support you too.

Speaker 1: 22:30

I've seen husbands like that right, and we call them the, the mild husbands. Right, the medium husband doesn't really care. He's kind of a bit of a hockey person and often Ty kind of blames the whole problem on her. That's, that husband isn't going to be super supportive of yourself care. And then you've got the jalapeno right. That person is just really, really struggling. The jalapeno often is abusive in lots of different ways, right, they could easily snap at the slightest thing, right, and they're very spicy in a sense, okay. I see women, I see wives, who have all different types of husbands, usually the mild, medium or jalapeno right.

Speaker 1: 23:23

Obviously, if you've got a husband who's mild, that's great, right, but if you're with a medium or jalapeno, okay, you're going to have to really learn to rely and trust yourself. Right, rely on and trust yourself. That might mean getting online and looking for some sort of an online job so you can be with the kids and earn your own money. Okay, we live in the age of information. We live in an age where you can sit at home and make one to $2,000 a month from your computer. It is possible, it happens all the time.

Speaker 1: 24:03

With teaching, maybe there's something you can start coaching. There are, there's billing, there's people writing, writing greeting cards or blogs or like. There's lots of different things that you can do to earn money from home if you just research, right, if you start doing some research. The second thing, too right, is you might have to take some responsibility and find a babysitter, somebody that you can actually take the kids to, so they're not being left at home with that, I know like, especially if there's somebody out there that's like, oh my gosh, that feels exhausting and it's depleting. Right, you've got to start taking some responsibility for your self-care in whatever way possible and start having your own back, because this is the first piece to setting a boundary. Boundaries don't work unless if you've got fantastic self-care. They don't. What do you like? Do you have anything to say to that? I agree, I agree completely. We'll go with that.

Speaker 1: 25:14

But this is yes but this is like the first caveat. The first boundary that you know we talked about, emily and I, is self-care. That is a non-negotiable, and so one of the ways you can say that to your spouse, right, and you kind of have to be careful If you say something to a jalapeno, right, they can fly off the handle all those kinds of things. So you really need to be careful and maybe sometimes you don't say anything at all to you, you just state the boundary my self-care is worth it. I am going to make sure it happens, right, and if your husband is consistently getting in the way and consistently trying to shut that down, this is something I really want you guys to pay attention to. Is the marriage still worth it? What do you say?

Speaker 2: 26:04

to somebody, you need to love yourself first. Yes, you're not an object. You have divine words.

Speaker 1: 26:13

And you have to be cared for to be safe, yes, and you need to make sure you're replenishing your bucket. The second boundary is make sure the kids are safe Right Emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically.

Speaker 2: 26:31

I like your idea of maybe, instead of leaving them with dad, have someone else?

Speaker 1: 26:38

Yes, take them somewhere else, right? You have to kind of gauge your husband on some of this stuff, right? If hubby is good, bless my husband's heart. He's a sweetheart, you know. I could totally leave my kids with him and he was really good. But there are some women who don't trust their husbands you know, to leave even the kids with them.

Speaker 1: 27:00

And so, if that's the case, find someone that you can trust that would be willing. There are people out there that will support you. Right, they're there, you just have to find them. Yes, that's true. Okay, and not only that, it's a good piece too, because it allows the kids a chance to get away from a toxic environment. You know, often what do you say about like, like. How else would we get kids into a healthy space? Like, what are some other ideas you have?

Speaker 2: 27:39

You know, look for extended family members if they're nearby, and especially if you have a family. Maybe that has that atmosphere of love and joy in the home.

Speaker 1: 27:55

Put them in that environment yes, yes, I love that. And also check your, check your thinking a little bit, like. I hear a lot of women that say things like there's just nobody there to support me, I don't have anybody there to support me, right, and that becomes a belief that that you prove true, like the brain wants proof, and so it will start to actually prove whatever you say to be true. And so be very careful with that statement. It is saying that there's nobody around, there's nobody to support me. Find the people that are there. Are good people everywhere, even if you don't have family, even if you don't have extended family, you know. This is where we want you to start joining a church group, right. Start gaining a community around you. You are never alone and you don't have to be alone, right? Community is there, we just have to find it. Okay.

Speaker 1: 28:55

Number three be honest Right Now, obviously, with a jalapeno, you really do have to tiptoe around them, right? Because if you were to come out and say, I do not appreciate the way you're behaving, I do not appreciate, like, the way you're speaking to me and I'm going to go take care of myself, I'm going for a date, like a date night with myself. I won't be home until tomorrow morning, like all those kinds of things, right, the jalapeno can snap at the littlest thing. So if that's the case, sometimes you have to kind of gauge these things Right. If you're terrified of your husband, you really need to ask yourself again is this marriage worth it?

Speaker 2: 29:47

Right. So we're talking about you. Not only need to be honest with yourself, you need to be honest with your husband.

Speaker 1: 29:55

Yeah, we do Right and you have to. You do really have to be honest with both, right, because if you are allowing your husband to dictate your every move, that's not honest with either one of you. No, it's not no.

Speaker 2: 30:13

And if you're trying to kid yourself like, well, it's not that bad, you know, at least he's providing for us financially, I can just, we can just overlook this. You need to be honest with yourself. But you, when you say honest with your husband, you don't you also mean letting him know how it's affecting you, rather than like you that you don't notice or you don't know?

Speaker 1: 30:39

Yes, exactly, exactly, and, like I said, in the rare cases where, where you do have the jalapeno, being honest doesn't necessarily look like using your voice. Being honest looks like taking action Right and getting yourself safe yeah, and the kids safe, and getting out of there. Don't, don't communicate, don't do anything. Maybe being honest looks like actually starting to document the things that are happening Right and doing everything you can to get yourself into that safe space where you've got support, right, yes, that's honesty. That's actually taking a look at the situation and not allowing what is not okay to continue. That's honesty. Okay, but with your, with the mild and the medium, most of the time you can use your voice and you can say no, I am not okay with this, this is not happening, right.

Speaker 1: 31:42

I had a client who had a beautiful conversation with her husband. Right, she, she and I chatted and I had to ask her to get really honest with herself. Right, this third boundary, like, what are you not okay with? And she mentioned that she's not okay with her husband being on his phone. Right, that she didn't like him being on the phone because it made her feel unsafe. He was consistently distracted from, from the family, wasn't connecting with it with people in the family. And so it kind of made her feel like she had a third kid Right. And I asked her, I had to ask her so how do you feel about that? Like, what do you want to do? She's like I seriously want to take his phone away from him and like sell it, get rid of it. And I said okay, and I had her, like, walk her through. Like what are the results of each one of those? If you did something like that, and are you doing this number one because it's best for you, best for the family, or are you doing it out of anger, to get revenge? Right, because it's? It's a totally different action depending on what the emotion is Right. You can have the same action but a very different result based upon the way you're acting, like what you're acting out of Right. And so she made the decision to be calm.

Speaker 1: 33:10

But she took, she took her husband's phone one night while he was asleep. She had bought another one that only had call and text, that's it, no internet, right. And she took her husband's phone and smashed it. Okay, I'm not saying to those of you listening to the podcast, I'm not saying that's always the best thing to do. Okay, but it gave her some peace of mind.

Speaker 1: 33:41

And when he came to her, it's like why would you do that? I didn't give you any, we hadn't talked about this. We hadn't. We didn't come to this decision together. She said you didn't talk to me about every single time you looked at porn. You didn't talk to me about how you were going to use this phone. I was not a participant in this. We didn't make decisions together and it was the first time he actually heard her. You know, bless his heart, I have to give kudos to her husband because he was like oh, you're right, mm-hmm, you know, use that phone. And they ended up doing a lot better from that moment on, both of them right, because he kind of started to understand how she was feeling.

Speaker 2: 34:32

It's that communication she needed, to communicate this, her feelings, to her husband, and this sounds like this is the way that it worked.

Speaker 1: 34:42

Yeah, exactly, and it was honest, right. But the problem with, I think, communicating in anger is it's very cloudy, we can't communicate Can blow up in your face. Yes, you wouldn't have to know your husband, you would, yeah, yes, and you can't take clear action with the clouds, right? Mm-hmm? Doesn't mean anger's bad, but it's just something you want to think about before you act on it. Yes, that's true. Number four is also stating the fact that porn is no longer allowed in my home. Mm-hmm, right, yes.

Speaker 2: 35:23

Time to draw the line in the sand.

Speaker 1: 35:25

Yes, absolutely. And the thing is, this is like again where we start getting into that communication with your husband, right, when we say I'm sorry, porn is no longer allowed in my home, so you have to check this at the door, you have to do this, you have to do this, you have to do this because it's not allowed. However, if you insist on using pornography, I'm not going to judge you, I'm not going to hate you. I just want you to know that you're going to have to go somewhere else to do it and I can't let you back in the door. Right, because not only like, if he's going to go somewhere else and view pornography, he's still bringing the energy of it with him in the home, he's still bringing the entities, he's still bringing the images, he's still bringing it into the home because he's an active user.

Speaker 2: 36:23

Exactly, and I love the wisdom when you describe these steps. If this is attempted, this saying porn is no longer allowed at the beginning, as soon as you find out you're not ready, the woman isn't strong enough she needs. I love these steps that you outline. They're key to this is the culmination of when you can say not in this house.

Speaker 1: 36:58

Yes, yes, exactly. And you need to have that confidence in your ability to be able to have the self-care, be able to create the money and the things that you need to create, to be able to communicate very clearly with your husband and be able to get to that point where, okay, husband, it's time for you to separate yourself from this, right.

Speaker 2: 37:22

And if you tried it before you had all of those and he said, no, I won't, you would back down, you wouldn't be strong enough. Yeah, exactly, I love your steps. You're brilliant. Well, thank you.

Speaker 1: 37:38

I appreciate that. I appreciate that. So you know bringing this back full circle. You know, when mom has these steps in place and these boundaries right, what do you see happening to the home and the kids and the husband from there?

Speaker 2: 37:54

Well, it shifts the entire atmosphere. First of all, instead of seeing mom as a victim or powerless, mom is now an active participant. Mom now cares enough about the children to want them in a safe environment. They will feel that and as the parents communicate and their relationship becomes stronger, they will feel that and even more powerful. They'll see that it's okay to have problems but when you work together to overcome them and become a better person because of it and you know they'll see that change in that that will probably become more engaged with them. He'll be a better father and mother. Now feeling confident and secure is a better mother and they'll feel that difference, that increased love, the peace, the reduction of the tension. Home will now be a welcome place to be. It'll be safe.

Speaker 1: 39:09

I love it. I love it. It's amazing how, you know, it's been amazing to me in my own personal journey, you know, having to heal from these things and my own childhood trauma and like all those things, to see the difference in the energy, the difference in our home and the difference in my own children. Right, and it just simply took me taking back my life. And this is what boundaries do is they give you the ability to get your life back on track?

Speaker 2: 39:44

And what a powerful example you are.

Speaker 1: 39:47

Oh, thank you. I appreciate it, and same to you, you know, to see like to be able to help families come together and and connect again. This is so key, is something that is being lost, you know, as we need to bring society back together and not have such a fractured family unit anymore.

Speaker 2: 40:14

I agree and I love your approach that keeps that can keep the family intact. You're not saying be submissive and put up with whatever your husband dishes out. You're saying first take care of yourself, keep yourself safe, keep your children safe, be honest, communicate openly and then make the decision, make that standard. And, by the way, this is the most helpful for children. The most damaging environment for a child is one of chaos. When there are no standards, there are no boundaries, and when they see that structure they feel safe or secure. Yes, and what's expected of them and what they can expect?

Speaker 1: 41:06

of their work. It breeds such confidence in them.

Speaker 2: 41:10

It totally does, I agree.

Speaker 1: 41:12

Emily, thank you so much for being with us today. You've been invaluable. You are such a jewel and just so much fun. We'll have you back again, for sure, and if there's anybody that wants to connect with you, get in touch with you. How do they do that?

Speaker 2: 41:28

My website is healingyourfamiliescom. They can also find me on LinkedIn, facebook, instagram. Just Emily Penrod.

Speaker 1: 41:39

Go check Emily out. You guys, if you'd like a little more help in connecting your families together and if you want some help on those boundaries, reach out, give me a call or a connection. Like I've talked to you guys so many times about how to connect with me, there's a link in the description below. Book a call. Book a call with me. Book a call with Emily and we'll see you guys on the other side. Guys, bye.

Speaker 1: 42:17

Okay, so I've got a question for you. Have you joined my free Facebook group or Instagram page yet? If you haven't, go and do that and this is the reason why I always post my freebies, updated information and all kinds of goodies for my community in that page. I'm also really active. I post videos, I answer questions. So if you guys really really want to get in and interact with me, go like me on Facebook.

Speaker 1: 42:53

Go join my group the other side of the struggle healing from betrayal trauma. Come find me on Instagram, aaron Anderson, betrayal trauma coach and come follow me, because I always have something good there just for you, my audience, and I love connecting with you there. I also post anytime that I have groups going on. I talk sometimes about my programs. So if you guys are interested in working with me or even just following me and getting as much free content as you possibly can, go hang out in my group. Go connect with the ladies that are there. Also, come and join Immune and Unashamed for those married couples that are following me, because in that group me and my business partner, kaisin Kidd, are also talking and offering some great content.