Following Jesus Without a Middleman

What happens when pastors fail, prophets are exposed, or church leaders let us down?

In this episode of Following Jesus Without a Middleman, three 17-year-old girls have an honest after-school conversation about what it means to follow Jesus instead of placing unhealthy trust in human leaders.

They discuss spiritual discernment, church hurt, spiritual abuse, controlling leadership, burnout, people-pleasing, and why no human leader should become a substitute for their relationship with God.

If you've ever wrestled with questions about church culture, spiritual authority, celebrity Christianity, or learning to hear God for yourself, this conversation is for you.

Topics covered:

1. Trusting Jesus vs. trusting people
2. Spiritual guidance vs. spiritual outsourcing
3. Healthy and unhealthy leadership
4. Discernment and personal responsibility
5. Burnout in church culture
6. Following God's calling without becoming dependent on leaders

About the characters:

Hanaya — A mature and grounded Christian who has learned to follow Jesus personally and walk in spiritual discernment.

Yuri — A Christian for two years who is still growing in wisdom and experience.

Noriko — Curious about Jesus and exploring what it means to follow Him.

Hanaya Oki Chapters:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7r2cZbxW9a3lozAhzXfEPy

Know more:
https://superdifferent.com/hanaya

Transcript

0:00

I seriously don't know what to think anymore. About what? Christianity. That's a pretty big subject. No, I mean, look at this. I've been watching videos like this all week. Pastors manipulating people, prophets getting exposed, leaders greedy for money, some turning out to be sexual predators, others acting like complete narcissists. Honestly, if these people represent Christianity, why would anyone trust it? Yeah, I've seen those videos too. Some of them were pretty shocking. Doesn't it make you question everything? It did, especially during my first year as a Christian. Honestly, I was kind of naive. I thought every Christian leader was automatically trustworthy. I thought if somebody quoted Bible verses, had a big ministry, and sounded confident, they must know God really well. What if the problem isn't that people trusted Jesus too much? What if the problem is that they trusted people too much? That's actually a really good distinction. Think about it. Most scandals happen because someone was elevated so high that nobody questioned them anymore. People stop discerning, stop testing what they're hearing. Eventually, one person becomes the spiritual authority for hundreds or thousands of people. That's dangerous. So leaders aren't supposed to control people? Exactly. The Bible tells church leaders to shepherd God's people, not lord it over them. They're supposed to be examples to the flock, not domineering authorities. Jesus taught the same thing. He said that worldly rulers lord their authority over others. But among his followers, greatness is shown through service. Christian leadership is supposed to be servant leadership. They're supposed to point people to God, not become a substitute for him. Should we learn from them? Yes. Follow their example when it's godly? Sure. Depend on them for your relationship with God? No, that's never supposed to happen. Really? Yeah. Jesus said his sheep hear his voice, not just pastors or prophets. His sheep, all believers. The goal isn't for someone else to hear God for you. The goal is for you to learn to walk with him yourself. Healthy leaders help people become mature. Unhealthy leaders make people dependent. There's a huge difference. You know, a girl in a youth group I visited once wanted to study abroad. She felt strongly about it. But she kept delaying her application because she was waiting for a leader to confirm it. She literally said, I won't do anything until my pastor tells me whether it's God's will. Seriously? Yeah, I remember thinking, why does somebody else need to decide your life for you? Looking back, I think she genuinely wanted to honor God, but she had learned to distrust her own ability to seek Him. I guess I can see how that happens, especially if you're new. Well, a lot of people confuse spiritual guidance with spiritual outsourcing. Whenever a decision comes up, they ask, What does my pastor think? What does this prophet think? Instead of learning how to seek God for themselves, some people want a prophet to tell them what season they're in. They want prophetic words like spiritual weather forecasts, constant updates about what God is doing next, instead of learning how to walk with Him today. And when people stop discerning for themselves, they become vulnerable. Because whenever you stop discerning, someone else starts doing your discernment for you. So questioning leaders isn't rebellion? No. The Bible actually encourages discernment. It says, test all things, hold fast to what is good, not blindly accept everything. Test all things? Yeah. Not just people you disagree with. Everything. Teachings, motives, spiritual impressions, even your own desires. And yes, even what I'm saying right now. No human being is infallible. Good counsel is valuable, but counsel is not lordship. Your favorite preacher can be wrong. Your favorite YouTuber can be wrong. Your pastor can be wrong. People close to you can be either right or wrong. That sounds almost suspicious of everyone. Not suspicious, just realistic. People can genuinely love God and still be mistaken. Someone can be right in one situation and wrong in another. Being used by God doesn't make a person infallible. History would be a lot less messy if people remembered that. There's actually a story in Scripture that illustrates this. In 1 Kings, a prophet received a direct command from God. Later, an older prophet told him something different. Instead of obeying what God had already told him, he followed the older prophet's word, and it ended badly. So the lesson is what? You cannot outsource obedience. At the end of the day, you are responsible before God for your own life. Nobody else can obey for you. One thing you'll notice, Noriko, is that unhealthy leaders often don't begin by asking for control. It happens gradually, sometimes even unintentionally. People start admiring them, then depending on them, then idealizing them, then eventually treating them as if they're spiritually superior, almost untouchable. Like celebrities? Yeah, except with spiritual language attached. People start believing. The pastor hears God better than me. The prophet knows things I never could. I can't trust myself. And once that mindset develops, manipulation becomes much easier. Is that what people mean when they talk about spiritual abuse? Spiritual abuse isn't always shouting or obvious control. Sometimes it's much more subtle. Using guilt to force compliance, using fear to stop questions, making people feel disloyal for thinking independently, convincing people that disagreeing with leadership means disagreeing with God. That's where things become dangerous. Because now the leader has taken a place that belongs only to Jesus. It's strange. Every one of these videos makes me more suspicious of Christianity. But talking to you two actually makes me more interested in Jesus. That's probably because Jesus and church culture aren't always the same thing. True. Church culture can be healthy. Church culture can also be unhealthy. Jesus remains Jesus regardless. So how should people approach leaders? Trust them appropriately, not absolutely. The best leaders don't make you dependent on them, they help you become more dependent on God. A healthy pastor can help you. A mature mentor can guide you. A wise friend can encourage you. But none of them should replace Jesus. The moment someone starts acting like they are the gatekeeper between you and God, something is wrong. What does maturity actually look like? There's a passage in the Bible where God says, I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go. I will guide you with my eye. Do not be like the horse or the mule, which have no understanding and must be controlled by bit and bridle. God is saying, I do not want to drag you through life by force. I want you to become sensitive enough to recognize my leading. We can learn through pain, or we can learn through sensitivity. God can use pain for good, but that doesn't mean every painful experience was necessary. Some pain is completely avoidable. God wants us to discern his heart, respond to his whisper, and obey before a crisis forces us to pay attention. That's maturity. That's why discernment matters. And that's why no human leader can substitute for a relationship with him. Okay, but let's say it's a healthy church environment. The leaders mean well. Can people still feel pressure to become who others expect them to be? I've seen videos of people talking about burnout from church activities. Not because anyone was abusive, but because they felt constant pressure to do more, serve more, and be more. Even good churches have blind spots. Even sincere leaders can make mistakes. There was a season when I said yes to almost everything: every request, every opportunity, every expectation. I thought being available to everyone was the same thing as being obedient to God. At first it felt spiritual, then it became exhausting. Eventually I realized I was spending more energy managing expectations than seeking direction. I wasn't being led by conviction, I was being led by pressure. People can sincerely care about you and still expect things God never asked of you. That's uncomfortable. It is. That's why discernment matters. Not just for recognizing bad leaders, but for recognizing when a good person's expectations are trying to become your compass. One time, a church leader asked me to take on a particular responsibility. I didn't feel any conviction that I needed to do it, so I brought it before Jesus. I asked, Lord, is this something you want me to do? He said, Whether you do that or not is up to you, but this other thing I require of you. What struck me was that the other thing was already what I had willingly given myself to. I wasn't neglecting my responsibility. I was investing my time and energy into what the Lord had already placed in my heart. There was grace for it. There was life in it. There was a sense of partnership with Jesus rather than pressure from people. It never felt like a burden. I was stewarding what he had entrusted to me. So I went back to the church leader and respectfully told him that I didn't want to take on the additional responsibility he had asked of me. Saying no to that opportunity wasn't saying no to Jesus. It was saying yes to the assignment he had already given me. Wow, what a crisp and clear response from Jesus. Okay, what if a church becomes unhealthy? What if leaders are controlling? Sometimes God calls people to stay and grow through difficult situations. Other times he calls people to leave. Not every departure is rebellion, sometimes leaving is obedience. Also, I think we need a much bigger perspective. Sometimes people make the church or a particular institution so central that they start acting as if God isn't doing much outside of church programs, as if God's main concern is keeping church activities running. True. Serving in a church is valuable, but the kingdom of God is bigger than the list of available volunteer positions. Sometimes God leads people into assignments that don't fit existing programs. And the reality is that institutions and church environments can become an insulating bubble. When you've spent years inside a church culture, it's easy for the focus to subtly shift. Instead of asking, what is God doing? People start asking, how do we grow the church? How do we increase attendance? How do we expand our programs? How do we strengthen our brand? How do we build the platform? None of those things are necessarily bad, but over time, without realizing it, the institution itself can start to feel like the entirety of the kingdom. And it isn't. The kingdom of God is far bigger than a church building, a weekly service, or an internal church ecosystem. A healthy church should equip you, encourage you, and help you stretch your wings, not clip them. And you don't need permission from a leader to obey God, especially when he's calling you into something beyond the walls of the church. God may call you into something so different, so unexpected, and so outside the usual framework, that even good leaders don't know what to do with it. That doesn't make them bad leaders. They are not the gatekeepers of your calling. And if a structure can't celebrate what God is leading you into, simply because it doesn't fit its immediate agenda. You need the maturity to recognize that God's kingdom is still larger than that structure. Well said, Yuri. We must never confuse loyalty to an institution with loyalty to Jesus. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. Freedom from people pleasing, freedom from unhealthy expectations, freedom to follow God's leading, even when others don't fully understand it. And that's okay. If you follow God long enough, you'll eventually disappoint someone's expectations. Not because you're rebellious, not because you're selfish, but because obedience to God and approval from people don't always lead in the same direction. That's why you need the courage to follow him anyway. Your goal isn't to please everyone, your goal is to be faithful. God is at work everywhere. Most of his work happens through ordinary people, faithfully serving him in everyday life. Ordinary people taking responsibility. Responsible for what? Taking responsibility for what God has placed in front of them. Your gifts, your opportunities, your relationships, your decisions, raising families, serving neighbors, creating businesses, helping the hurting, sharing the gospel. The kingdom grows in all kinds of places most people never see. So leading yourself isn't becoming independent from God. Yeah, it's becoming responsible before God. That's a big difference. Learn from people, love the church, stay humble, receive wisdom, but don't hand your walk with God to somebody else. Follow Jesus personally. Take responsibility for what he's entrusted to you. Can I be honest? Of course. I've been interested in Jesus for months. But those videos made me hesitate. I kept thinking, what if I end up getting manipulated? What if I trust the wrong people? What if Christianity is just another system? I think I've spent months trying to decide whether Christianity is trustworthy. But maybe I've been asking the wrong question. Okay, what's the right question? Maybe the question is whether Jesus is trustworthy. Now you're getting close. Because if Jesus is who he claims to be, then he's worth following. Even when people disappoint you, even when leaders fail, even when institutions get things wrong, the foundation remains the same. Then I think I want to know him for myself. Not through scandal videos, not through celebrity preachers, not through internet arguments. For myself. That's exactly the right approach, Noriko. That's where every real journey begins. Not with somebody else's experience, but with your own decision to seek him. Read the gospels, watch how Jesus treated people, listen to what he taught. You might be surprised how often he challenged the very kinds of religious behavior that frustrate people today.