Dr. Eric Hankins joins the podcast to discuss the idea of expressive individualism, a concept that has run wild in our culture the last few decades.
Dr. Hankins started his ministry at First Baptist Fairhope December 1, 2016. He comes to First Baptist Fairhope from FBC Oxford Mississippi where he served as Pastor for 12 years. He is a native of Lake Charles, Louisiana. Dr. Hankins has served churches in Texas, Mississippi, Louisiana and now Alabama. He is a graduate of Louisiana College, New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary ( M.Div.) and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Ph.D.).
Dr. Eric Hankins joins the podcast to discuss the idea of expressive individualism, a concept that has run wild in our culture the last few decades.
Dr. Hankins started his ministry at First Baptist Fairhope December 1, 2016. He comes to First Baptist Fairhope from FBC Oxford Mississippi where he served as Pastor for 12 years. He is a native of Lake Charles, Louisiana. Dr. Hankins has served churches in Texas, Mississippi, Louisiana and now Alabama. He is a graduate of Louisiana College, New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary ( M.Div.) and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Ph.D.).
All right, welcome back to another episode of jake and friends podcast today. We have dr eric hankins Uh, he is my pastor, uh, and also lead pastor of first, uh, fair. Hope first baptist fair. Hope Um where he's been the pastor there since uh, 2016, I believe that's correct Um, he also pastored, uh, at 1st Baptist, um, and Oxford, Mississippi for 12 years, and he is a native of Lake Charles, Louisiana, where I have no idea where that is. Um, I know where that is. Oh, okay. Well, uh, and you also, um. Dr. Hankins, correct me if I'm wrong, but you've served in Texas, and Mississippi, and Louisiana, and now, of course, Alabama. Is that correct? Awesome. And, um, and you're also, he's also a graduate of Louisiana College, New Orleans, uh, Baptist Theological Seminary, where you earned a Master's of Divinity. Is that correct? And also Southwest, uh, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and you earned your Ph. D. Uh, and what is your Ph. D. in exactly? It's a Ph. D. in theology. Okay, and, and you, uh, you told me that you wrote your dissertation in the Lord's Supper, specifically? It's atonement theology in the Lord's Supper, so it was, technically it's a biblical theology piece, uh, but, but focused on. Focused on the, um, atonement theologies like theories of the atonement, uh, you know, substitution, satisfaction theory, that sort of thing. And I was looking for, uh, what, uh, different atonement theories, uh, were present in the Last Supper as Jesus was and in the words of Jesus at the Last Supper. Awesome. That's really cool. Uh, and you also are married to your beautiful wife, Janet, and you have. Three children, uh, JD, Emily, and uh, Jake. And you also have, is it three grandchildren? Is that correct? Two grandchildren and one on the left. That's right. Grandchildren, I guess, technically. Correct. That's awesome. Well, thank you for joining us on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. Um, how's, uh, how's the shepherding going at First Baptist? Just going great. We're in a great season at church and, and, um, I've come to, uh, really understand actually the value of the shepherding task and the fact that that that's best done together. And so just got a great, Got a great, um, group of fellow shepherds, uh, that we do the work together. And that, that's a lot of fun. Uh, godly men who are called and gifted and equipped and filled with the spirit to do that work. So it's just a plenty of work to do. Uh, but it's good to good to have good brothers to do it with. And then a good congregation that wants to want to be shepherded and wants to make a difference. So it's been a good season in our church. Good. Uh, Dr Hank is we walk through sort of like, kind of how you end up in fair hope because just in case you're unfamiliar. A lot of our listeners are. In the Birmingham area and the surrounding areas, so, uh. Just wanted you to to just sort of give that background. Yeah. Um, 1, things that might be interesting is that we're, I'm a Baptist. We're Southern Baptist. And so local churches call their own pastor. So some people, they're religious or denominational tradition. Pastors are assigned places, but that's not that's not how it works for Baptists. And so how I got to Fairhope specifically is the, um, my predecessor had retired. And so the church, the church itself, uh, uh, initiates and does its own search process. And so, um, they got my name somehow, uh, and, uh, reached out to me and we just started a process of, of praying through. Together, whether or not God might be calling me, uh, to pastor there. I'd never been to Pharaoh before. Uh, I'd seen it on the side when we would ride, drive from Oxford to Destin and that sort of thing. But, uh, the first time I visited fair hope was when I was being really interviewed near, near the end of the process. So, uh, that's cool. Did you ever watch, uh, the heart of Dixie by chance? I did not just Parker Parker. Okay. So there's a, there's a, uh, I would, I would call this a girl's comedy show. It's about this doctor girl who moves to a small town in Southwest Alabama. Right? Which is basically somewhere in the Eastern shore, but they don't ever say that. And it feels a lot like fair hope. And everyone has a. Um, over, uh, drawn out Southern accent and everything's very, you know, like one of the girls name is lemon. Like that's her, that's her given. It's all the girls down here named lemon, right? I just didn't know if you watched that in preparation or not. I did not, but I should probably enhance my, enhance my skills down here. So how was your like, uh, uh, you shepherding in Oxford for the years you were there compared to your time here in Fairhope? Um, you know, it's kind of cool because in some way, in many ways, Oxford, Mississippi, and Fairhope, Alabama are similar. They're, they're small towns, but very attractive. Everybody wants to live there. And so even though it's a small town, they're. It's bustling and a lot, a lot going on and a lot of, uh, civic pride and people love, love their town. And so they're, they're fun places to live. Uh, also a lot of people moving in and out and so, uh, for the deep South and for a small town. We usually get a lot of homogeneity of the people, well, Oxford and Fairhope, there's all kinds of people coming in with all kinds of different belief systems and that sort of thing. And so that that made it a fun and interesting environment. Now, of course, the big difference is Ole Miss is in the whole town revolved around Ole Miss. So I think 60 percent of the people in town worked on the university campus, that sort of thing. So that, uh, and Ole Miss is very, it's a very secular. State University and so that, you know, that dynamic certainly was very, very prevalent and then working a lot of college students. I was, it was a big part of my ministry there, uh, and then a fair hope doesn't have that university dynamic, but it has the, um, because it's growing and people want to come and people are just flooding in everywhere. Uh, there's just great gospel kingdom opportunity, a lot of people to reach, uh, a lot of people from coming, coming from outside the South and outside the kind of the Christian ethos. And so, um, so there's a lot of. A lot of great, great gospel opportunities. But I should say, Fairhope is a great place to live. So I'm very thankful I get to live in Fairhope. It's a great, great place to live. I concur, Jake. I concur, man. Just saying. Parker's been trying to get me to move to Fairhope for about, how long, how, how, eight years? However long Parker's been in Fairhope. You should. Yeah, we've been, this is our 10th year down here. So just saying, Jay, it's cool, man. I mean, it would take I could, I could shoot you a number. If you can find me a job with the number I'm looking for, it's going to be about triple what you're thinking. And then I'll pick a number in your head and then multiply it by 3. And then I'll move that. So, Dr Hankins, Jake, and obviously we grew up together, been best friends forever. His wife is his high school sweetheart, and we grew up with her. She went to the private school in Troy, but we went to the public school, but we still hung out all the time. And then Allah, uh, her, his, his, uh, wife, her and her and I finished in the same cohort and Auburn, um, and graduated together. So we have, uh, my wife and his wife are good friends. We're friends and we're just like, you know, it just makes sense for them just to come on down here. We have a church for him already. You know, it's just, it's just ready to roll. You know, just got to find you that job, I guess. I think it's obvious. I can't say I haven't been praying for it, Smitty. We love visiting Fairhope. I tell people all the time, if we ever move. Outside of the Jefferson Shelby county or I told Alice that if we move from our house, we're moving. To fair hope or back to Troy and Troy is going to that's a long shot. Just I love Troy to death, but there's not a lot of accounting jobs floating around Troy, Alabama. Um, but Dr Hankins, we want to just talk to you. We want to just sort of get into right. What we want to talk to you about. And, uh, Parker brought up this idea about, uh, expressive individualism. That's actually him, not not me. Well, Parker, Parker didn't didn't hit me with it. He said, you've been preaching on this recently, and we just wanted to get your thoughts on that and just sort of, uh, talk as much about that kind of stuff as we can. Because it's. Extremely relevant and prevalent. So, um, what exactly is expressive individualism? I really encountered the term. Most significantly in a book by Carl Truman called the rise and triumph of the modern self. I would really recommend that to, to y'all and to your listeners, the triumph of the modern self, um, because of my, my, um, uh, educational background and, and, uh, love of study, I really like in, uh, getting to the root of things. What, what is the root cause of something or what is the, fundamental basis for an idea. And what Truman's book really does is he, it gets to, um, really down, uh, to describe what's fundamental, fundamental about secular people. And it also gets root for, for those of us who are, who are believers. We, we look around at our culture and we're like, well, what, what's wrong? You know, when you boil over, what went wrong? What? Why do things and what is sort of accelerating the, um, surprising, uh, decline of the culture, uh, the, the rise of gender ideology and some of these things that would have been just, um, even 10 years ago, things we couldn't have conceived as being sort of mainstream and what Truman argues is that, um, you can, you can boil down the secular, you know, Uh, uh, basically the secular identity as, as what he calls expressive individualism. He gets that from Robert Bella, uh, uh, from a book I think called Habits of the Heart that's maybe a couple of decades old. Anyway, expressive individualism is, um, an expressive individualist is someone who, uh, lives and, uh, believes and lives, uh, with this idea that my personal psychological core is my identity. If you want to know who I am and, and what I'm going to do, it, that's completely constrained by my, uh, my psychological core. So if I feel that something is true about me inside of me, then that's true. And the thing I want to get across to y'all is that because we all would say well your feelings are important or how you feel about things is important. The expressive individualism says that's the sum total of my identity. Um, what I feel like on the inside and then therefore the goal of life is to express that. And when I'm able to fully express and live in the identity that's mediated by my feelings, then I can be my true self. And then it's the job of the culture to, um, support that and affirm that. And Truman's argument is that's the real sea change. That's the real difference, uh, in what's unique about our moment in history as compared to really all the centuries before that. Um, most people for most of time believed that truth was out there. And that our soul should conform to what's true outside of us. There's a greater truth, a higher reality, our soul should conform to it. And that the task of life is to get your little, incomplete, sinful, broken, finite self to, to, uh, grow up into conformity. with what's ultimately true that's out there. And culture's job, therefore, was to help that process. To say to people, No, that's not right. No, you're headed in the wrong direction. No, I know that may seem like what you feel like you want to do right now. It's not a good thing to do. Here's where you want to go. Here, here's, here's how you, uh, walk through that journey of becoming who you've been created to be. And the expressive individualist culture says, it turns that around. What they say is, reality should conform to my soul. Uh, reality, uh, should, uh, uh, match itself. To me, and that's a complete inversion of how people have of how human beings have understood what a self is, and it's a great version of what culture is. In fact, Carl Truman calls it an anti culture is that our culture now exists to affirm people. In their, their individual emotional state, whatever that might be, and however, that might want to be expressed, not the long answer, but that's that's of that idea. And it's something that's really captured. My mind is like, yes, I know. I, that's what I thought. I just didn't have anybody help me really. Yeah. So, and then I'll, then I'll let you guys banter about that some. So that what I think is important for believers is that the people who you're talking to today, um, that aren't believers, and frankly, a lot of believers have sort of soaked up that worldview and that idea in a profound way. So the people that you're talking to when they say, well, but I really feel that for me, such and such is true. They, they mean that in the fullest, fullest sense of what it is to say something is true. It's the, it's the truest thing I can tell you about myself is what my psychological core is. And the only response you should give me is, hey, that's great. You be you. And if we could have a society where everyone just does what, what the Disney movies say, which is follow your heart, you know, you can do whatever you want to be. And if everyone was allowed to do that. That everyone would be happy and we would be in harmony and utopia would emerge and if we could just let everybody do what they feel like doing, things would be great. And of course, the Christian ethic is the opposite of that. Hell is the place where everyone only does what they want to do. For themselves forever. Yeah, uh, I used to think that I was, uh, that I could fly like when I was a young child, you know what I mean? Like, and when you were explaining that, that's all I was thinking. I believed it when I was like, 6, I was like, I was like, I can't show anybody right now. But 1 day I'm going to be fast enough to where I can, like, jump off the roof and I can just I can do it, you know? And then, like, I quickly realized me and my. Yeah. But when we were eight, uh, we jumped off his parent's roof for fun. And then I realized very quickly, I was like, Oh, that truth. The reality is you can't play. The reality is I don't get it. Like I figured out the hard way. That's right. Yes. Yes, and that's that really is the crushing conclusion is that you can, um, you can, you can repeat something over and over again that you believe you think is true or you believe to be true doesn't make it true. Yeah. And, um, as the Bible says, only the truth really can set people free. And so adopt a lie as truth and then try to live that out. Of course, they destroy themselves and they destroy everything around them. Yeah. So, um, you know, you've been for those that that don't go to our church, you've been kind of wrestling with this and some of your sermons the past couple of weeks. Um, how has this, I know you kind of Discuss this a little bit, but how does that like tie in scripture and like, how has that led you to teach? I know you spent some time in first Corinthians, uh, talking about this. How has the spirit like kind of led you to, to preach this from the pulpit, um, and you know, with scripture? Yeah, I really, I really, uh, the, the Lord really led me to the, to Paul, the Apostle Paul's relationship with the Corinthians. And what's unique about the Corinthian church, Or what, it's not unique, what is acute, particularly for the Corinthians, is that they had a worldview that in many ways is, is the, is the ancient equivalent of expressive individualism. What the Corinthians believed is that, um, the spirit was more important than the body. That their own, uh, spiritual, personal existence was preeminent. And that nothing else mattered, but that and so, for instance, a sermon I preached, I guess, last week, having to do with the body is the Corinthians thought that since the body didn't matter, what only really mattered. What was the, the, the, the inner reality of their, of their, their spiritual lives that they could do whatever they wanted with their bodies and, um. And that mirrors, uh, uh, expressive individualism in the way it works in our current culture. Since who I, who I am truly is who I am on the inside, I can do whatever, I can do whatever I want with my body. I can do whatever I want to my body. And because even my body now needs to conform to my inner My inner truth, even, even my body must conform to that, or rather our bodies, as the Bible teaches, uh, are part of God's creational, uh, purposing of our lives. So our bodies tell us what our identity is, and our bodies are given to us as a, as a way to, to live in an identity, uh, that's been given to us by our creator. And I think you referenced, uh, 1st Corinthians 6, um, 12 where Paul says in quotations, all things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful and all things are lawful for me, but I will not be dominated by anything. Um, and I think that's kind of what you're referencing here just a minute ago. Right? That the Corinthians really thought. Um, I can do whatever I want. Um, I am the, I am the. Master of my own truth and whatever is going on in my spirit. Uh, is right, and so, um, I'm, I'm really free to do what, to do whatever I want. Now, their view really had a lot of Platonism, which was the, the created, creation is bad, uh, and spirit is good, um, a lot of transgenderism now is, uh, is compared to Gnosticism. Are you familiar with Gnosticism? That's the Gnostic idea that, that the only thing that matters is spirituality. And all of the created order is, is, uh, uh, less real, it's, it's evil, it's to be, it's to be gotten rid of, it's all going to be gone one day and we're all just going to merge into, uh, uh, into, into the, into the divine. And so it doesn't matter if you're on Earth, um, but it, but the net effect is the, to me, it's a, it's a very, uh, similar. Uh, mindset that, uh, my own personal in inward internal, uh, point of view is preeminent and everything else and really everyone else is secondary to that. Um, How does that like bleed into the church? Uh, you know, like, like, because you mentioned earlier, like, even some believers will sort of take that and, like, soak in some of the ideas, um, from secular culture. Uh, and maybe I'll think of 1. I don't know if this is where you're going with that, but no, uh, in fact, yeah. It's bled into church culture, and it mainly manifests like this church is kind of for me. It's about me like it if something happens that I don't like I'm out. Yeah. Uh, it's, uh, it better fit my style, it better fit my preferences. Uh, I better not, there. Better not be, uh, big demands made of me, uh, heaven forbid I should ever be held accountable or all to account. Asked to serve, asked to serve, or, uh, told that my thinking's wrong. Told, you know, told them I believe wrong. I told'em I beliefs Unacceptable. Um, I've never heard of any of those happening at any church. I will say I want to, I want to call out, uh, first Baptist fair hope in a good way. Uh, I've only been to your church one time and that was when I came, it's probably last year. I don't know. It's not important. I came and visited with Parker and Kayla, my wife and I did, and we brought our oldest daughter with us who's six. And, um, I don't it wasn't you, it was somebody else stood up and I think I had a mission trip coming up like a short term mission trip, like, either a week or less or something. And the guy was like, hey, you know, we still need several men to. Commit to going to this, like, there are a lot of men in this church and there aren't enough men signed up to going and y'all need to look around. Like, you're the 1 who needs to go basically. And I was like, man, I was like, that's kind of refreshing. Uh, uh, who would think you would come to church and be. Yeah, walk away from your comfort and personal preferences and do something greater and more sacrificial. Yeah, I thought it was very cool. It's not something you hear a lot. Unfortunately, is someone asking a man to be held accountable. Yeah. So, I mean, Paul does that all the time. I mean, he calls out the churches all the time and. Um, that's why I love reading all the Paul's letters. But so how does that expressive individualism? We've already kind of discussed how it bleeds into the church and the way of thinking. And obviously, it, it's all in the cultures, our culture around us, their viewpoint. And especially right now in our culture, the hot topic is the LGBTQ community and transgenderism. Um, how does that expressive individualism kind of tie into that or does it at all? It, it ties in completely. In fact, what you have, especially in transgenderism is expressive individualism taken to its logical conclusion. Um, I will decide who I am and even my own body. Does not constrain me and if you do not affirm what I say is the truth that's in that that's inside of me Then you're an evil bad person and you're the one who needs to be repressed. You're you're the one who needs the to fall under judgment and so so we really And we're, and we, um, people will take hormones, they will have surgeries, and then really the, I think this where this goes, you know, I hate to say anything has come to it's gone as far as it can go because every time I say it can't get any worse than this, we've, we seem to, but really manifest that we're doing it to children. I think, I think once a culture is, uh, uh, harms children as a, as really an act of worship. Because that's what the transgenderism is, a religion, it's a, has all the same components as a, as a religion. And um, and just like the, when the Israelites began to sacrifice their children to Molech, that's when God was like, that's it, you're going, now you're going into exile for sure. And so the culture needs to impose this on children. In order to communicate this really is the truth, this really is the right thing to be doing, it is so right, we'll even do it to a, to a six year old, we'll do it to a seven year old, and that's just how far, uh, this idea, uh, has been carried. Mm. Mm. Uh, what is, like, if, if I'm playing devil's advocate, which I'm not in reality, but hypothetically, uh, what, what is the benefit to, to that? Like what, what is someone who decides this is right? Like, what is, is there a benefit at all to this? Because certainly, certainly, and, and, and I would, I would, uh, and this is another idea that I pull from, from Truman's book, is. Uh, the therapeutic self. We live in a very therapeutic culture. So everything is blast. Every problem can be solved with a pill. Um, we, we, we love to take drugs. We love to take shots and medicines and vaccines and everything can be. So it's a, it's a very medicalized, uh, culture, but also, uh, it's very, uh, uh, therapeutic in this sense. And I, I'll lay this out. And again, I'm borrowing almost all these ideas from, uh, from Truman. So I want to give credit where credit's due. But what he essentially says is it's really, it goes back to, uh, Sigmund Freud and what Freud says, his, his. Thesis was everyone is repressed and really everyone is sexually repressed. That's the main problem of all people is that they haven't got expressed their true sexual selves. And what culture does is culture's job is to repress sexual urges and get them into these restricted channels so that a culture can function. Um, but what would be best is if you just yanked all of that cultural repression out and if, and if, and so, so how does this help people? People are unhappy. Because they're not getting to express their true sexual self. And so if they're allowed to express their true sexual selves, then they'll be truly happy. And so, that's this argumentation with the transgender. If you don't let a trans, if you don't let a junior high girl become a boy, then she'll kill herself. So that's always the logic. They're so repressed and they're so held back and they're so conflicted because they're not allowed to be their, their true selves. It makes them depressed and anxious and they kill themselves. And so what is it going to be? What's going to cure their depression and anxiety is if they're allowed to, to change their bodies and change their relationships around them to affirm their true self on the inside. And so, once again, it's, it's, that's why there's so much passion behind it, because those who advocate transgenderism, they think they're saving the world. It's a gospel. It's, it's a gospel. And they are out fighting for truth justice and and and saving lives and you'll hear that language you we're we are saving lives By doing this so like as a Christian as a Christ follower you know, that's obviously a big hot topic in our culture and especially in the Christian worldview too and and you know, there are Christians that Support it. I'm sure. And obviously, on the other end, there's Christians that are like, heavily. Like against it and out very outspoken again against it, but these are people that are lost and need a savior. So, how as Christians can we, um, love this group of people who are obviously need a savior. While also not affirming what, you know, their viewpoint and, and that, and that expressive individualism. Yeah, and that's the question. And it's a question, frankly, I'm, I am struggling with. Um, I was talking to, uh, somebody the last couple of days who was in a, in a department store and picking out some makeup. And, uh, uh, transgender, a man who, who looked like a man, except that he had, uh, uh, women's hair and says, I'm in the process of transitioning and I want to start figuring out the makeup part of that. And, and again, this person was talking to me, wasn't working that store. She was just. You know, a couple of feet down, but still the thought is, what do I do? I mean, do I do what? And of course, we don't know what to do. You don't do anything, but it just raises this question. What is so different and so unusual? What would one do to be a person filled with grace and truth towards, um, uh, towards someone like that? And so I think what I would say in these, I don't think any of these things would be surprising to you. And I don't have any. personal experience of leading a transgender person to Christ. I haven't, God hasn't given me that opportunity yet, but I need to be ready, you know, and so what is it to be ready? And so I do think it, part of it is just going back through, uh, what has always been the, what has always been true about, uh, presenting the gospel to lost people. And, uh, I touched on this in my last sermon when we were talking about some of these transgender issues and the text I used. And the verses just above it in 1 Corinthians 6, Paul says, he names homosexuality and fornication. He's this whole kind of horrible sin list. And then he says, and such were some of you, but you've been washed. You've been, you've been purchased. You're, you're, uh, uh, uh, special, uh, uh, God's creation. He's, he's, he's won you to himself in Christ. And so we do need to make sure that whatever, whatever it is. That's that's, uh, that the interaction is going to be. It must be about the announcement, um, from the 4 spiritual laws from campus crusade. God has a wonderful plan for your life. This isn't it, but there is wonderful plan for your life. And there's such a bet. There's there's. God has a so such a better way for you. Uh, I was in the same situation with my own brokenness. Uh, and, and God had a, God had a much better plan for me in Christ Jesus. And so I think always remembering that we're not going to. We're not going to debate people into the kingdom. We're not going to, um, and transgenderism doesn't send people to hell, uh, saying no to Jesus sends people to hell and we need to help people say yes to Jesus and then Jesus will start the process of sanctifying them. It'll be messy. And of course, if, as we win transgender people to Christ, boy, that's going to be, it's going to be very interesting to see how the beauty of the gospel and the, the, the, uh, the beauty of a relationship with Christ manifests itself and works itself out in the sanctifying work. And somebody who has that particular background, the verses you referenced, I'm just going to read them real quick. The 1st Corinthians 6, 9, uh, through. 11, it says, or you didn't, or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God did not be deceived. Neither the sexual immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor violators or swindlers with the will inherit the kingdom of God and such were some of you, but you were washed. You were sanctified. You were justified in the name of the Lord. Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God. And I think that's. Yes. You know, on point, like, we have to remember as believers, like, we are no better than anybody else. We are in need of Christ just as much as those in the LGBTQ whatever community and also transgender. Like, we need Christ just as much, if not more than them. So, um, I, you know, I think, I think back, like. If Jesus was alive during this time, I really feel like as he showed his life, like, he would be in the middle of that community and he would be judged by the Christians in the church. Um, and he would be, you know, I just that's what I personally, I don't know that, but I just feel like he would be in the middle, loving them, serving them. Um, and just being like, hey, I'm here and I'm here to die for you and I love you and I'm gonna prove it. Um, so anyways, I think that's really, really good stuff there. Absolutely. That's got to be the heart. That's the, we, we watched, we watch in the gospels how Jesus loves people and how Jesus pursued sinful people and especially people who were, you know, doing them, doing them some sinning, you know, Jesus after those folks. Now, I will add to that, though, that, uh, homosexuality. Uh, is not only a SIM, but it's a sign. of, of a culture that, that has, that is, that is, um, accelerating, uh, in its rebellion. And so when Paul lays out the sin list in Romans chapter 1, it culminates, uh, in, uh, men burning with lust for other men and, and women doing the same. Uh, there, there is this hatred of the image of God, uh, and the, the, uh, the, the, uh, The word sin, hamartia, in the Greek means to miss the mark, and the mark that is missed, that I think that Paul is thinking of, and, and the New Testament writers are thinking of, is the mark, is the mark of being image bearers. It's the mark of being in the image of God. And so, if you find in this, uh, uh, this sexual revolt, A real, real, a real pronounced way of, of a culture and people in it shaking their fist in God's face and saying, you can't tell us what to do about anything. We will create ourselves, we'll recreate and replicate ourselves. Uh, and, and, and this is, this is our best way of showing you. You can't, you can't make us do anything. And, and that when a culture turns to that, uh, it is, it is setting itself on fire. It's a hurt, hurtling towards destruction. Can we take a brief step back and ask the question of like, how, how did our culture specifically get to where we are now? Um, because my wife and I, Ella had just recently, recently watched band of brothers. If you're familiar, um, and so, like, it wasn't that long ago. I mean, it's like 80 years ago. Like, the World War 2 was 1941 from America's standpoint, 1941, 1945. I think. So, like, that was like 80 years ago. And like, like, my partner and my grandparents age, like those people, you know, and so if you watch the culture during that time, you're like, it's night and day different compared to, uh, you know, um, Everything, everything is night and day different. So how do we get from at least there to where we are now? Maybe it started even before that's right. Um, and I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I just what Truman does, which I think is so good as he answers that is a really good point. If you want the, if you want the blow by blow is grab the book. But, but, um, here's how it happened. There was a, there was a philosophical revolution that started with the enlightenment and I'll, I will tease this out to the degree that y'all want me to, but let me just give you the headline. There's a, there's a. Philosophical revolution that occurs that's a part of the enlightenment that gives us the philosophical idea that the best thing that, that people, individual people know better than the culture and individual people know better than anyone else, who they are, what they are, what they should do. They don't want, it was called the flight from authority, we don't want the church telling us what to do. We don't want authorities telling us what to do. They're corrupt, they're, they're, they really have their own power, uh, in mind. They don't really have our good in mind anyway, and they, they can't and shouldn't tell us what to do. We're better at it. This goes back to Jean Jacques Rousseau. Um, uh, men are born free and everywhere are in chains. That we're naturally good. We're born, we're all naturally good people. And the problem, the problem is out there and the goodness is in here. Well, before the modern era, we, we said the problem's in here. Our, the number one problem is in here. And the, and the answer's out there. I just, I just have to have somebody point me to, to, to show me how I can have it. Yeah. So, you have through the 17th and 18th and 19th centuries. So, you have three centuries of this idea that. Um, individuals should choose for themselves who they are and how they should live. That moves through romanticism, uh, you know, of the, of the 19th century. And so, you even have in, uh, in Disney movies, you know, in the early, Uh, the early 20th centuries, um, when you wish upon a star makes no difference who you are, anything your heart desires, your dreams come true. That's, that's, that's Pinocchio, right? And this pervasive idea of follow your heart, you know, your heart will guide you. So, yeah, you have that idea that has several 100 years to get to get in everywhere. And then you have the technology to support it sexually. And so with the invention of birth control, um, you. You have supposedly consequence free sex. And when that happens, um, which is the sexual revolution. And there, there's always a, uh, revolutions always require technological advance as well. And so, when you, when you have the technology to support it. So now I'm really much more able to deviate from the cultures and religious. Wisdom of the ages about human sexuality. I can get away with it. And I can, I can avoid the consequences of pregnancy. Um, and STDs. Uh, then there, then there are no other consequences. Well, the culture was already ready. With this idea of you, you decide for yourself and then the technology comes along and allows people to actually live that out and then we're off to the races. And so, uh, you have the, you have the destabilization of the home. You have a rise in, in, um, um, illegitimate births. And then now you're just. Now, now the thing just starts to spin out of control. And so up to that greatest generation, of course, that the, the, uh, cultural constraints are still there. But once you have the baby boom and the 60s hit and the sexual revolution and all these ideas that have been percolating in the culture for a couple of hundred years, then you have this perfect storm that comes together in the 60s that says. You ought to do whatever you feel like doing the best is the life where you get to do whatever you want to do, whenever you want to do it and there we go. And it's crazy, like, how you're talking about, like, how we say, you know, follow your heart, do whatever you feel like is necessary. Like, the Bible is like, it says the complete opposite. Like, don't trust your heart because your heart is deceitful above all things. And so, like, it's just, you know, which I think back before I gave, I mean, before I met Jesus, like. That's exactly how I thought like exactly whatever I felt like and my heart was right That's what I was going to do and I had like the the christian culture southern, you know in me But I just did whatever I felt like doing um And just followed my heart because that's what I just believed until I met jesus and he was like no Your heart's deceitful man, and you need me and so follow after me. So Uh, you, you mentioned all that, um, you know, me and Jake and I have young children trying to raise children. I know me and you have discussed this before. Um, but and you've raised 3, you know, God fearing, uh, adult now children. Um, so what would you suggest for people like me and Jake and other families? Like, how do we guard our children's hearts? Um, from the culture's mindset, like of this in our home, what would you suggest? The great news is nothing can beat the family. Nothing can beat the family. Uh, it can be Jesus and the, the family is Jesus's idea. So take heart, be of good courage. Don't give up because, uh, the Soviet union couldn't break the family. Communist China can't break, you know, despite their best efforts. Uh, when you have a mom and dad and, and the children is a diamond hard configuration of human beings that is deeply designed to, to mediate truth and to mediate identity. Um, so, uh, what's the opposite of expressive individualism? Well, I've kind of coined this, this, it may not stick, but this is, this is my answer to that is it is. Um, purpose of relationalism. That's what we really are. We are creatures who have a purpose and our bodies. The technical word is our bodies are teleological. Our bodies suggest to us. The end to which we're to live, uh, even, even our gender and our, and our, the sexual parts of us, tell us what we're, what we're for, you know, and what we're supposed to do and who we're supposed to do it with, uh, and, um, and then what did the, so the family is the first culture and really. Your own physical body is a culture. It a, a culture, a good culture mediates to you what is true and what is sacred, what you're for. And so even your body is a, is a culture that says this is who you are, you're a boy, you know? Yeah. And there's a purpose for boys and they're girls and they have a different purpose. They have a different set of purposes, and so already. You sort of know who you are from day one because you, uh, because what your body tells you about yourself. And so, uh, so I would say as a family, you want to celebrate the genderedness of your children. Now we need to be mindful of dumb stereotypes, uh, but we can go to the Bible to find out what, what describes true masculinity and true femininity. And then the family really is designed to be an individual's first culture. And so your children are going to learn who they are from. And so what I would say to you is take that task seriously. Talk about what you believe all the time. Talk about what you think is true and what you think is right and what you think is good and what you think is beautiful. And say to them, see this? This is beautiful. This is awesome. We're going to spend our time thinking about this. And when they wander over and look at something that's, uh, not true, good, or beautiful, but is false, bad, and ugly. Then you say, uh, that, that's not, that's not the direction we're going to head. That's the wrong direction. And we're, we're, we're gonna, um, we were created, uh, uh, uh, for, uh, for, oh, it's so purposive and then relational. We're created for relationships. We are who we are in relationship with others. God, and in other people primarily, that main other that you, that you come to discover is that, is your spouse. And you come to be who you are in relationship. And so having right relationships, biblical relationships, of course, we need Jesus to do that. Because our sinful disposition is we're in wrong relationship with everything. God's done something about that, but we want to create an environment where, um, where we're being proactive about the responsibility to mediate identity. I think I got this. I think this is wild at heart. Y'all remember wild at heart. Are y'all too young for. That sort of thing. I don't know if we're too young or not, but we, I don't readily kind of look off. That was one of the books. And I think this is wild heart. It's male, maleness. You're born male, but masculinity is, is maleness is, uh, given masculinity is mediated. And I think that's true. I think you're born male, but you're going to need. A father to then show you how that maleness manifests itself in the world, uh, in masculinity. And so, um, but what I found as a parent. Is you can raise, uh, well, not you can't, it is your duty to raise people who know who, who have, who have had the truth mediated to them. Um, sort of piggybacking off that same thought about, you know, having. Um, the family be like the ultimate, like the 1st culture, um, that that God created for us. Um, non hypothetical. So today's Thursday. So last night was Wednesday. We have Wednesday night church. My 4 year old. Um, gets to Wednesday night church and she says, I don't like night church. I like morning church better. And then we're like, well, it's not that time. We're going to go to morning church on Sunday. And then we go to morning church. And then she says, I don't like morning church. I like night church. And so it doesn't matter. She just flip flops cause she's four and like, but she said last night, I don't want to, I just don't want to get, I'm like, well. You know, we're going, you know, like that's not your decision to make right now. Um, One day she's gonna get old enough to where she's gonna press me and say well actually This is my decision or maybe she's in my house. Maybe she's grown up and moved out um, and she's in college at this point, but how do you as a parent and as a As a, as a believer, just like allow your child to either fail, um, or see that, like, whatever they're thinking is. Or whatever they're wanting to experience is not the truth versus like, when do I step in and say, that's too far? I'm not even going to allow that to happen. Right? That's a great question. That's the, that's the challenge of parenthood things come to mind is, um, at the, the goal of parenting is to get your kids ready to be adults. And so. Learning how to sublimate their own wants and desires to what's right and good. Well, that's the task because that's what I have to do all day long. There's a, I'm what I want to do and what is right for me to do are at variance and I've got to do what's mature and instead of what's immature and stupid. Uh, and we're like that forever. And so I. So, over authoritative, where you're making all the decisions, and everything is, and nobody has a chance to question anything, or wonder, or, um, they're, they are figuring out this, and, and they're figuring out their identity sometimes by banging it up against yours. Yeah. See what it's true? That sort of thing. There's all that done. Even your daughter just flipping it around. That's, she's, she is trying to figure out how stuff works and she's trying to figure out why is it that there's this thing in me that doesn't, that doesn't want to do what's right. Um, maybe everyone else is wrong but me. That's one theory, you know, and they need to, they need to get that worked out. So too much authority. I'm not telling you anything you don't know. And then two little authorities, the other one, just let the kids do whatever they want. No one gets to live like that. And so, uh, my story is I was walking into church, Knight Church, with my, uh, youngest, who's now 20, but he was probably six. And he says, I got to tell you, Dad, Knight Church, you know, it's, We've already been, uh, I'm all about, you know, church is great, but once is good for me. Uh, so, you know, well, what, what, and so here's what I heard. Number one, never work to not be afraid or mad. Oh no, my son's an atheist. Right now, you know, you can't, you know, that, that sort of thing. Don't, don't parent from fear and don't parent. Because you're controlling, there's an opportunity to always see if there's an opportunity to teach and train and is take advantage of it. And so I said, um, I said, well, a couple of things here, Jake. Number one is I have to do things. I don't really feel like doing all the time. And so if one of the good things about this, this, this can just give you the good feeling of going ahead and doing what's right, even though you don't want to, because that's what needs to be grown up. And so it's not, and so thing one, number two, it's just not about you. This isn't for you. And you also need to learn lots of stuff is just not for you. Three, you don't know anything. You don't know what's good for you. You don't know, you don't know what's going on in here. And so you need to be quiet and come and sit and learn. You need to learn to be still. You need to learn to listen to dad. You need to learn to sing these songs. Fourthly, You There's a community of faith in here and guess who loves seeing little eight year old Jake on Sunday night? Everybody else who's here. They, it's marvelous to see you in here. They love you and it makes them feel good. And so thinking about somebody else and doing something that someone else is like is a good thing to do. And, uh, and at the end of the day, that's not going to, all of those things are not going to make the, the The desire to go play video games instead doesn't make that go away. But you still add in to the process, and at least you can say, Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and do what's right, even though I don't really want to. And then lastly, who knows what may happen. Lots of times something good, some treasure, you know, makes itself manifest to you. And so my eight year old, and I would say that on the grand scheme, Jake is my philosopher. He's the one that's most likely to come. And so I laid this out for him. And yeah, I took maybe two minutes to do it. And he goes, okay. I can't wait to start worship. It was like, I still don't really want to, but that's a your point, you know, and on we went. So that may be too long of a story, but the, but the, the, the part is, there's a, there's a, there really is a chance to teach. And then, um, as Parker was pointing out, hey, a chance to teach everybody's heart's desperately wicked, including mine. You can even say, you know, about half time. I don't want to go to church, but I'm the problem is that equation. I don't we don't like to do. It's good for us. And so just won't let you decide the vegetables. We don't let you add to brush your teeth with chocolate sauce. We don't let you decide on whether you're gonna go to school. Um, right. You don't get to, you don't get to decide about this either, man. That's good stuff. Well, um. Kind of, I guess we'll kind of wrap it up with this, this kind of question. Uh, you know, when we're talking about all this stuff with our kids and all of it being centered around the expressive individualism and what's going on in our culture. Um, what would you say if we had, you know, maybe 1 of our listeners was like, man, I have failed in this area. Like, I've, I failed as in my thought process. Um, I failed with other. Um, believers and and telling them, like, hey, this is the right way we should, you know, this is biblical. It's the way Jesus, um. What would you say to those people? And then also maybe on the other end of the spectrum, like, maybe we do have some listeners that might be part of the LGBTQ community or transgender movement or whatever. What would you say to those people? Um. I guess kind of wrap it all up and when it comes to like the gospel. Yeah, great. I'll answer the last part first and move myself back to, to, to people who, um, would say I identify as LGBTQ plus, um, please hear God loves you. I love you. These two guys I'm meeting with here. Love you and, and, and followers of Jesus Christ, we care deeply. We want God's best for you. Um, God's best for you is not this. This is not the way. Uh, even though it feels very deeply that it is and there's all kinds of dynamics and I don't pretend to be an expert in those things, but. Um, uh, the God who loves you and, and designs you, has designed you, uh, for a, a, a biblical picture of gender and relationships and, and, uh, has, has great purposes within, within that. Um, I say that as someone who's also sexually broken, uh, my, my sexual brokenness manifests itself differently, but a hundred percent of us, I had the folks in church. I think it was last Sunday, uh, raised, how many, how many people in here are sexually broken? And I had to ask it a couple times until everybody got their hand up. Yep. All sexually broken. Yeah. And the only solution to that is, uh, is the love of Jesus Christ, uh, and his sanctifying truth in our lives. So come to Jesus and live. Come to Jesus and live. And if you're quite well, well, then, but what, then what? Well, there you go. That's the, that's the great adventure, uh, is Jesus will help, help walk you out of what you used to be and into where you're supposed to be doing the same thing with me. And then, uh, or believers who've. Um, you know, failed, uh, failed in their duty to love, I would, I would go to people that you failed and say, would you, would you give me a chance to, to say something, uh, to set something right where I was just wrong. And if they are, is to say, I want you to know, um, you're loved. And I want the best for you. And I never would want to push you away from me or from the truth by being harsh or rude or ugly. And, and whatever ugliness you saw in me, that's not from Jesus and that's not, not from the Bible and it's not the Christian message. Um, uh, God loves you and I, and I, and I, uh, failed you in failing to extend that kind of love to you. And I'm sorry. And I, I'm the one that's wrong on that. Not you. Um, and then maybe the other side of somebody who's failed to speak truth, uh, is having the guts to go and say, because I didn't know what to do and the, and the disposition things is just to be affirming. I may have led you to believe that I think that what you're up to is good. And I wouldn't be a good friend to you if I didn't tell you, I think this is, I think this is, I don't think this, this is not good. This is not good for you. This is not the right way. And, um, uh, I love you too much not to, not to tell you that's how I feel about it. I want the best for you. I'll never give up. I always want to be a friend to you. But true friends tell each other the whole truth and nothing but the truth and, and, um, and, and, and God has a better plan for you. That's good. I was thinking about James 5, 16 when you said that where it says, therefore confess your sins to 1 another and pray for each other so that you may be healed. I'll say that's sums it up right there. We're all centers. We all need. We all need the gospel. We all need it. So, for joining us today. I really appreciate it. Um, I have learned a lot amazing how, you know, when you started to guide it to the wrap up, I'm like, we've been doing this for, you know, now, of course, it always gets way faster than you think. Yeah, so thank you. I've, I've been, I know me and my family have been completely blessed by your shepherding and, uh, have really enjoyed our time getting to know you and your family. And, uh, so, yeah, I really appreciate you joining us. Yeah, and if you found 50 to 100 acres of land down there that gifted to me, then I will move down there. What, 50, 100 acres land down here is what? 20 bucks an acre or something like that. Oh, yeah. Sure. Yeah. Well, cool. Thank you for joining us today. Dr Hankins. We really appreciate it. Thanks for that opportunity. All right. We'll see you guys next time.