Do Not Trust Us Or Pizza Cut Into Five

We argue that most “bad writing” complaints boil down to one thing: characters do not change in ways that feel earned, so the story has nothing to say even when it looks great. We build a simple map of character arc types and use Mario, anime, and big franchises to show how flat characters can work when the world around them is allowed to grow. 
• our not-a-facts disclaimer and why you should open a book 
• the ringtone tangent and why giving instructions is dangerous 
• the soup saga as a commitment bit 
• why Zuko’s redemption works as a textbook arc 
• seven common character arc patterns and what they do 
• flat arc characters done well versus “nothing happens” writing 
• why the Mario movies feel focus-grouped and emotionally hollow 
• how long-running franchises flatten characters into caricatures 
• examples that handle growth well across many seasons 
• lightning round: good and bad arcs across pop culture 
• the real villain: overcomplicated food orders and pizza cut into five 

The only thing you need to take away from today is to not order Pizza Cut into Five. Just don't. Like, unsubscribe. If you're gonna order it that way. We don't need your business. If you're ordering Pizza Cut into Five, don't buy my book. Don't download from my itch.io. Don't watch our Daggerheart podcast. We don't need you.

Transcript

Disclaimers And Chaos Energy

SPEAKER_02 0:00

We have a podcast called Deep Space and Dragons. Disclaimer, Deep Space and Dragons are not facts. If you think you're getting facts from this podcast, don't get facts from this podcast. Open a book. Read a newspaper. Don't use Grok. I think we might be more reputable than Grok, because we're not literally Mecha Hitler, but we're still not a reputable source. I am Richard, not a reputable source.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

And I am Carl. I'm definitely a reputable source because I present these facing dragons. So I think reputable than Grok.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

So did we actually just do the there's two guards here. One tells the truth, the other tells nothing but lies. And the correct answer is always ignore the correct answer to that riddle is always ignore both of them, because they're obviously both lying. Just don't don't engage is the correct answer. Just throw nunchucks at one and then move on with your life.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

Oh nunshoks. Where do you even get nunsh from nowadays?

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Timu.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Yeah, that's a good point. Probably could find nunshoks on Timu.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Value Village? From people who are used to think they were cool like us and then turn to their 30s and then donate their nunchucks like fools. How are you supposed to literally choke out your inner demons like Bruce Lee if you don't have nunsh? That's just foolish behavior.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

I appreciate that. They want me to complete a puzzle and I don't feel like confirming that I'm a robot.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Someday the robot overlords will be hunting for the last surviving human because they just can't tell which squares have trucks. It's impossible.

Captchas And Robot Overlords

SPEAKER_03 1:49

It is impossible to tell which which squares have trucks. Alright, so. Do you have to have the whole truck, or is it like just like a portion of the truck? That's the part that can like gets me.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

To be fair, I'm pretty sure it's more tracking your mouse activity to see if you're going in straight lines.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

Uh yeah, yeah, that's probably true.

Custom Ringtones And Regret

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Alright, so what's old with you? What's old with me? Yeah, I'm mixing it up.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

See, uh eons ago, I decided that I would uh download the Inspector Gadget theme and crop off the the and use that as a ringtone. Okay. Um that's pretty old with me. Anyways, um I don't know why, I just kinda got sick of it. It started to seem kind of obnoxious. So I was like thinking, what do I what do I do for a new uh notification ringtone? And I think uh I I don't know how many people are gonna be able to recognize it just from what I what I cut off, but I think and I I'm gonna use or I am using it because what I did because it's fairly easy to uh download a free program called Audacity and put your URL for your YouTube video into uh YouTube's MV3 computer converter, and then you just chop off the section of the thing that you want to make a custom ring. You absolute fool!

SPEAKER_02 3:19

What? So, I love you like a brother, right? Like I I need to open with. You gave our viewers the exact instructions they needed to turn how you make a custom ringtone in your voice into their ringtone. You are aware. You are aware, you just gave them the exact tools and instructions they needed to take sandbites from our episode and turn them into ringtones with no idea of the consequences. You have said some things you'll just be like, hi, Karl Marx was always right, or whatever nonsense we put into this podcast. Like, oh no, it's literally gonna be, I'm Carl. Everything I say is true. We'll just be the ringtone of your co-worker at work tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

But uh no, I I decided to use the first four notes of the Lavender Town uh theme for for my ringtone. Okay. I mean I'll uh I haven't found anybody yet. That's just like it's not the lavender lavender town ringtone. Uh clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink. Exactly. Uh but so but so far, I mean, it it's a little bit more subtle than the Inspector Gadget one. Um, so I I like it for that. And then it just kind of genuinely amuses me. Um but then also I'm really hoping that someone will be like, what's going on here with this Lamender town bullshit?

SPEAKER_02 4:50

I mean, to be fair, dead rat attack is what's happening.

School Projects And Summer Plans

SPEAKER_03 4:55

And and I mean, what else is new with me? It kind of ties in with our episode topic, so uh so we'll just move on for now. What's new with you there, Richard?

SPEAKER_02 5:03

I'm trying to figure out how much depth I want to go into. So, on one hand, my semester's wrapping up. I have three large projects for the term, and I have one and three quarters done. It was two done, but then I got some feedback, and I'm like, ah, I need to rewrite this entire chapter, I can do better. So I'm working on this right now, trying to figure out how my summer's gonna go, looking at things like placement, grant funding, school stuff, making my quip I always make on the last day of class of goodbye forever. Two people I know I'll absolutely see again and orientation. Well, the summer's weird, so everyone's still technically in school over the summer. But they get to choose between a placement, i.e., I go work free labor somewhere. Right. Or writing uh MERP, which is like a major research process. Not quite like a doctoral thesis, but like a baby thesis to warm you up to the idea of writing a doctoral thesis later in your life. Okay. So that means most of my classmates have zero incentive to leave their homes over the summer and come to the school. I'm gonna be there all the time because I'm doing my placement at the school. I might be teaching people how to make some of those text-based parser games like I sent you a set demo of. And you know, you would take that class, you know it'd be cool. You want you want to learn how to make it. You would love to learn how to make one of those. So that's like the I'm kind of in the crunch time and I should be doing assignments, but also I'm me, so due to this insufferable smarm that I am, I'll probably be fine. Like I have a assignment worth 30% of my grade in Divigital Publishing, right? If I get a zero on that, I pass the class with a 70. So my anxiety is not particularly high. Mm-hmm. And then my creative fiction class, where I have to hand in three chapters. If I did literally nothing, I could just open the folder labeled novel scraps, pick three chapters of one, and hand it in if I really want it. If I was really pressed for time.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

Are you sure you can even find the folder labeled novel scraps?

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Yeah, it's right here, right next to a guest in the house in Edge Round Up. And code for IpQuest. My desktop is a nightmare, but it's my nightmare, okay? Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

Yeah, see my desktop, it's incredibly clean, except for the clock that I had to download Windows Power Tools to make it sure that it would stay always in the top.

The Soup Offer That Backfired

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Wow, these folders though, it's like I have Foldscape, followed by Visual Novel Maker, followed by SRPG Studio, followed by ComCol PhD package colon, the real one. The real one. Well, I don't want to hand it the fake one, that'd just be foolish. That would be foolish. And then so on Monday, a friend of mine's like, Oh, I'm not feeling particularly good. So I make an offer of if you want, I can swing by tomorrow and bring you soup. Which was intended as a sincere offer. The next day rolls around and I had forgotten that I was meeting up with a classmate to work on finishing up our grading for the semester. So I send them a message along the lines of, oh sorry, can't make it for soup, and they're like, Oh. I I actually said yes. I never say yes when people are like, hey, do you want me to bring you something? I'm gonna talk to my therapist about and just ragged me over the coals, right? Like, oh, I'm so betrayed by this that I'm gonna have to talk to my therapist about it because I was beginning to believe in mankind again. Wow. So I'm being raised mocked all week for soup. Which, to be fair, I offered something and then proceeded to cancel within like five minutes, realizing I had other plans, making it look like they'd said, yes, that offer sounds good, and I replied with, oh, actually I can't. So it looked like an incredibly disingenuous offer. It wasn't, but it looked like one, thus the humor of it. So this was pretty funny. Last night after class, I'm like, I'm making this goddamn soup. So, as I'm at their house with four stock pods going, as I'm have the beats, the beef, and I'm just making like the most elaborate portion known to man. And at this point, it was less about caring about friendship, and more than I was like daydreaming about making the soup all week. The best ending to the story possible is just to make the single most elaborate, highest quality soup I possibly can. So, my friend's just chilling, sleeping cards, and it's like, did you just wind to glaze that pan? I'm like, I'm making soup. I said I am making you soup, and I am making soup to the best of my ability. So I'm literally deglazing a pan. And I have like seven, yeah, I literally had all four elements on, as I'm just like, I'm making this soup, damn it, it is going to be delicious, and you will have soup for the next two weeks. At this point, they'd like fully recovered from their cold. Which was also part of the joke. It's like now that you fully recovered, I have made you soup to feel better. It just I don't know why I enjoyed that bit so much. For context, they ended up paying for the ingredients for their own get well soup. But I assembled it.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

Oh, the life of a professional student.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

So I don't think I actually did anything particularly morally upstanding, but it was good soup, and that was really the point.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

That was truly, truly the point was to make sure that they knew you made them good soup.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

No, no, the point was to make the soup. They became irrelevant, and I became irrelevant. It was about the soup, Carl. It was a worship to some absurd scoot soup god we've never heard of before in tribute. It's like when, like it was when Ryoni and Ketchen were like, oh yeah, the sword I gave you was the crappy one, because you keep the real one for the gods, but since your crappy one broke, I'll give you the real one. Like, that was the level of craftsmanship that had to go in this soup. Like, this was a divine offering. It's like you can eat the scraps, the soup is an offering for the gods. And here's the final part though, I'm like, I'm pretty sure it was the third best soup I've made. I tried real hard, but you don't always hit peak.

SPEAKER_03 11:20

The third best soup you've made? Which is pretty good. I mean, I didn't realize that uh you graded your soups, soups like that, but I guess you really do worship the soup god.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Soup is to be respected. Soup is to be treated with the respect it deserves, Carl. Although, for the record, it would have been equally funny for me to show up with a can of tomato soup, put it in a bowl, microwave it, and hand them that. That also would have been a truly amazing bit. It would have been less fun, but it would have been a good bit. So, what is the name of the soup god? I haven't decided yet. He'll he'll make or she, or they, will make themselves known to me when my soup is good enough.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

Oh wow. You put your heart and soul into at least three different bowls of soup, and they don't even tell you their name yet. Yeah, I haven't got there yet.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Also, I feel like this is weirdly close to the plot of bartender, the manga. He was like, I'm looking for a drink that can save a man's soul, that can make a depressed man no longer commit suicide because his cocktail is so good, and like you you just chopped up a swan statue for higher density ice, you're like, yeah, this is mid.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

Uh alright. But it's not the plot of the of the anime?

SPEAKER_02 12:52

The anime and the manga followed roughly the same plots, I think. Okay. I think they also tried the anime twice, but I don't recall.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Okay, but so then this is not the same as Glass of God.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

No, that's a new anime that's about wine that's very obviously inspired by Bartender.

unknown 13:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

And also, I think has that same basic premise. Which to be fair, I really like this cocktail manga about making the best cocktail ever. I'm gonna do one about wine feels like a weirdly reasonable promo. Like, okay, yeah, I see I see how you went got from there to there here. It's been a long road getting from there to here, but I see it.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

Anyways, I guess we should move on to our actual topic. I guess.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

I'm surprised they didn't just shove an unrelated movie review in, because I was fully prepared to pivot the episode into whatever shenanigans. You're like, no, no, short, concise stories. Yes, I got suits in, but those don't make my story.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Well, I haven't I haven't uh you know tailored the suits yet, first. Um and secondly, uh, you know, suits don't tell a good story.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

First off, disagree. Ever heard of the TV show suits? And second I I have this headcanon of you personally tailoring the suits, which is really funny. Like you just have like three pins in your mouth, and you're just like, Richard's probably this fat now.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

That's pretty funny.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

I have put on winter weight and summer weight. Although, to be fair, Fat Richard just feels healthier than Skinny Richard ever did.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Huh.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Skinny Richard felt like he was going to die from the gentlest breeze and was sick all the time. Fat Richard's like, I should probably not eat the entire bag of chips, but other than that's feeling fine.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

That does sound like a pretty good character arc.

Zuko And Why Redemption Works

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Smooth. Alright, so. People like to hype the best character arc of all time is Zuko's Redemption. I think it's a basic bitch character arc, but it makes a really good textbook example.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

Zuko's Redemption, eh?

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Because we start with obviously evil character, slowly going that, oh, they're misunderstood, slowly going, oh, they're just a victim of domestic abuse. They tried to good. The thing that makes Zuko's arc interesting is he fucks up being a good guy repeatedly and doesn't just green Power Ranger healed her. Like, there's literally a bit where he tried he did a good deed and it made him sick for a day. And then he's like, hey, you could be a good guy, or you could get everything you ever wanted. He's like, you know, I do kind of enjoy being literal royalty, getting everything I want. I'm really not that invested in saving the bald kid that's hit me in the face with a mattress. You know what? Fuck it. And then he gets home, but he's like, you know, maybe I did something wrong hiring an assassin to murder this child. Like you can totally read Zuku's redemption is so self-serving too, because he makes so many strategic moves that result in him just being the king. Like, if they didn't show us his point of view of what he was thinking throughout the process, he'd be like, actually, he did just successfully coup d'etat and take over the fire nation. Like, he did just successfully do that outright. That's a good point. He threw his dad in jail, his sister was made successor over him, and she also got thrown in jail, and he conquered the nation. So he got his vengeance. He took a competition in his. His dad burned him, and his vengeance was his dad forever lost the power to burn anybody.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

I mean, a significant portion of the show from his point of view is him trying to regain his honor with his dad, but it does result in him taking away his his dad's firebending powers and directly, but exceeding him.

Seven Core Character Arc Types

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Yeah, to like talk about like the types of character arcs before I throw the mic to you, because I'm sure you're going somewhere with this.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Is there's seven main character arcs that are common in fiction. Okay. The first is the positive change arc. You start with ignorance, you understand that ignorance, and it turns a weakness of yours into strength. I. Okay. The plot of show and jump. Right. Like that's when you get your oh Samu realizes he's not a badass fighter, so he learns strategy. Or Goku learns nothing. But Vegeta, Vegeta learns that it's okay to be second best. Yeah, okay. We have the second option, the negative change arc. The breaking bad. You become a worse person over the course of your story. Macbeth being an example of that one. I argue Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are separate characters with separate character arcs.

SPEAKER_03 18:01

Yeah, I can see that.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

But yeah, like positive change, you're like, oh, any given superhero movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have the flat arc. The character doesn't fundamentally change, instead, they act as an agent for other characters' arcs. Okay. So you're Captain America's. Captain America's not learning a lesson. Right, right. Your Sherlock Holmes, weirdly enough, just causes other people to re-evaluate their lives. Goku is actually a really good example of the flat arc character that makes characters around the mark. Yeah, alright. The disillusionment arc, which is every show in anime villain ever, where they wanted to be an ILIL uh idealism, and then they become a realist instead. And unlike the falling one, that usually does a bell curve. Where it's like, I start being idealistic, I become evil, and then I return to being idealistic at the end. Yeah, alright. Then there's the coming of age arc, which is about earning your dependence, clearing up your curiosity, your Harry Potters, your every YA book ever written. And then lastly, we have the Redemption Arc. The Redemption Arc. And you can put many, many more of those. I just figured I'd give us some language.

Mario Movies And Flat Characters

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Right, right. Um Well, see, what what was actually new with me is that I uh went and watched the Mario Galaxy movie. And uh personally I thought it was better than the first one.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

I mean Star Fox was in it, which means soon, soon there will be Kirby. And then we'll get the Super Smash Bros. cinematic universe, and then all of the merch.

unknown 20:06

All of the merch, Carl.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

All of the merch. The idea that people want a Smash Bros. movie is truly absurd, but that's not the point.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

So, I mean, uh my review of the first Mario movie uh was that uh if you're a fan of Nintendo, uh it has a lot for you. Uh because you know, it's bright, colorful, fun, filled with Easter eggs and references. Oh, the member berries. The score is amazing, uh but the writing is subpar. And I couldn't really put it on my finger on why I thought the writing was subpar. Because it was!

SPEAKER_02 20:41

It might as well have been written by Claude AI.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

It was not good. Yeah, I know. I mean, I I know I know it is not good, but how do you quantify what makes it not good?

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Oh, I can tell you what quantify how what makes it not good. This is an easy one for this movie. Okay Universal appeal focused group testing. So you start with something with artistic vision that takes a stance. I'm gonna go into academic writing. In academic writing, you need to make to write a good essay, you need a thesis statement which provides an answer to a question. A good thesis statement, even if incorrect, will take a strong stance. So, like, let's go with the Mario Galaxy movie if you're writing an essay on it, and you made a thesis statement. It was good because I liked it and it was bright and colorful and dumb. That's not really nothing, right? Now if you went, it was good because Jack Black's overcoming of toxic masculinity to be a good father was compelling. Then you made a thesis statement. But when you take a focus group and ask people what did you think enough times, you won't take a stance anymore because that'll appeal to less players. So you want to make a movie that has nothing to say, because if you say something, you alienate half of people.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Well, okay, so part of the reason I actually want to talk about characters. Just because after watching Mario Galaxy, watch rewatched the first one to see if it was that I remembered it. And honestly, it was worse.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

Um, but uh I was trying to think about like what what is it that I don't like about it. And I guess it is a character arc. This was actually gonna be my question about whether or not it's a character arc when when the character doesn't learn anything. Uh but uh in the first Morio movie, uh Mario he never gives up, and that's like his defining characteristic, and everyone doesn't believe in him, and he just doesn't just keeps not giving up, and he doesn't actually learn anything, he just keeps doing what he's doing. Yeah. And part of what really bugged me about rewatching in particular, is it felt like they were setting up character arcs. Like he had this disapproving family in the first part portion. Um and I'm not exactly sure what the character arc, like maybe he's supposed to show his dad that his dad should learn how to be more approving, but he doesn't really spend enough emotional investment in the family portion before he just goes on to the adventure portion. And so it's like there was no character there. It's kinda like we got to the end of the movie, and there's supposed to be this like big emotional impact. Like even with Luigi at the end of the first Mario movie, he uh I mean I guess he overcomes his fear and jumps in the way of Cloud House Fire with the manhole cover to block it so Mario doesn't get toasted. I I that's like the closest thing to a character arc in the movie. Like no characters have a dynamic character arc, they're all just flat characters.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Well, yeah, because they're characters that have pre-established personalities that can't change.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

But it really, really bugged me that it felt like they were trying to set up character arcs, they're trying to set up this emotional development, and then it just went nowhere.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Well, yeah, that like I was saying, is you can have a flat arced character provided they trigger change and things, but Mario movie was random bullshit. So you have active protagonists who make choices that result in ramifications, which gives you and then storytelling. Mario does X, therefore Y happens is good written. But in this movie, Mario does X, and then Y happens, independent of what Mario does. So like he goes to fix a sewer main, gets teleported to a magical kingdom, and is just the chosen one because reasons. And then doesn't finish his obstacle course, then goes saves his brother, I guess, then gets a power star because reasons. And like, it wasn't even the annoying anime trope of you're the chosen one because of special DNA or something. There just I guess everyone else it's like Mario was a hero because everyone else was objectively terrible. Like it was by virtue of being an average dude in a world of toads, I guess, makes you exceptional. But like he never did anything particularly like intelligent or strong like he didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

Yeah, so I think he had as much agency as Bella Swan in Twilight. Oh well, I mean, I do think he was very clearly the main character.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

You can be the main character and worthless.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

I think it's actually pretty funny. I was thinking about this, uh it's super easy just to write Princess Peach out of that movie, because she literally just accomplishes and does nothing.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

It's funny because they set her up to like be a girl boss archetype and then didn't.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

Like she is super badass, and she could easily have been like a dual tagonist because for whatever reason they just felt like sidelining Luigi completely. But, anyways, but so then I watched the second one, uh, the Mario Galaxy. Yeah. And I don't know that the writing was actually that much better, because all the characters still have incredibly flat arcs, nobody actually actually changes over the course of the movie. Well, you can't for Bowser.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

You can't have them change because they sell action figures with pre-recorded voice lines.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Yeah, well, except for Bowser. Bowser has the the fallen character arc because he starts out he starts out routines and and then goes back to being a villain.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Um which was actually like pretty funny to me. I mean, he's objectively a better dad than Goku.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Well, so there was a little bit of that then trying to set up character arcs because it felt like Mario in Mario Galaxy was going to learn that uh nobody's beyond redemption. Until Bowser was in fact beyond redemption.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

So here's the biggest issue with the Mario Galaxy movie, and this is gonna be the spiciest of hot takes. Mario Galaxy should have been the third movie. Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

So the first movie should have done something in the middle.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Yeah, it should have been Mario Sunshine in the middle. Mmm. Because it would have been because Mario Sunshine is about Bowser Jr.

unknown 27:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

So it's Mario and Princess Peach go on vacation after saving the world, and then Bowser Jr. gets introduced, and you could use like that framing to like flesh out these characters a bit more.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Mm-hmm.

Flat Arc Done Right In Anime

SPEAKER_02 27:38

And then put off Bowser till the third movie coming back. Like, there's a lot you could have done with that. Right. Also, it's bad. It can just be a bad movie. But I will say this about flat arc characters. So a lot of big name IP characters are doomed to be flat arc characters. Right, right. But let's take the first 12 episodes of One Punch Man. Let's assume it ended where it narratively should have. Saitama was a flat arc character.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

This character already holds the truth and applies it to the world. Genos went through a character arc of being an edgy loner is wrong, and believing in his limits is wrong, and the correct answer is just to save people and not think about it. Basically, Genos' arc is you need to stop overthinking everything and do something. Right. So that way, Saitama's arc of doing nothing causes the world around him to change, because here's a guy who's just being a hero for the fun of it, and your edgy background story nonsense is worthless in comparison to his clear value. So you can flat arc a character well. Like Rion and Kenshin, for example, I don't think Kenshin learns anything. In the story proper. He goes through his whole he goes through his character arc off-screen. And then the one flashback here.

SPEAKER_03 29:00

Because he goes from being a uh badass murderer to being someone who uses his sword to protect.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

So he has his positive character off well, his redemption arc off-screen. Because Kenshin at the start of Rion and Kenshin is already redeemed for all intents and purposes.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Like no one looks at this guy and be like, oh man, but he killed his wife once, kind of sort of not really. He needs to like learn a lesson.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

But Kenshin's lots of the lots of the villains in in the throughout the show are trying to try to turn him back to being evil, but yeah, he is pretty much just redeemed for all intents and purposes.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Yeah. So then the actual characters going through character arcs are his wife and his adopted child. Like, those are the characters who are actually learning things in this course of the story.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Where you could like make a very strong argument that your hero was actually the protagonist of Rionikenjin. So like the flat arc can work, but you can't give all five of your characters a flat arc. Also, weird piece of internet lore that'll probably mean nothing to you, but I found amusing. Mm-hmm. So, the in Mario fanfic community, because fanfic comes up surprisingly often in my literature class, okay. We're outraged that the movie said that Princess Rosalita and Princess Peach were related because they've been shipping them as a couple for the last 20 years or so.

SPEAKER_03 30:28

That's hilarious. Okay, but so I I do have one more. Have you actually seen the Mario Galaxy movie?

SPEAKER_02 30:34

I've seen enough. I've seen enough, okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Uh so I like I can't tell whether or not it's genius or stupid. Stupid. But you're No no no. So the first Mario movie, uh, Mario is very clearly the main character's character, his actions and choices drive the story. Yep. Uh he's a flat character, but he's very clearly the main character. Uh in Mario Galaxy, um instead of being able to write Princess Peach out of the movie, you could actually just write Mario out of the movie. Uh and Princess Peach is the main character, her actions very clearly her actions and choices very clearly uh move the story.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

That's actually a better narrative choice the whole time.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

Well, exactly. Uh but really driving that point home, uh Princess Peach answers the call to adventure uh and goes off to the galaxy to find her uh sister. Spoiler alert. Um she leaves a note for Mario that says, I've gone off on this adventure, take care of the kingdom for me. And I expected them to be like, okay, no. Other toad, you're in charge, because you're elder toad or whatever. We're gonna go rescue the princess, bring her back so she can do her job, or whatever. Um but they they ignored the call to adventure. And it it's like it really, really subverted my expectations. And I just can't. It amused me. It greatly amused me uh that they subverted my expectations so like completely in that moment.

Nintendo Risk Aversion And Writing

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Well, it's funny is that like when you think about it, yeah, Mario is the least interesting character in Mario. Like Luigi, you could easily give a character arc to because he starts in a place and has room to go. Where Mario is largely static. And Princess Peach was such a nothing burger for 40 years of writing, you can insert whatever you want into her personality. Like, no one is mad about Girl Boss Peach because Peach had nothing. Right. Plus, she was playable early enough in the franchise where it's like, it's out of character. It's like, did you play Mario 2? Where she was just one of the playable characters and threw stuff at things. It's fine. Don't worry about it. Yeah. But like, it's kind of weird though. It's like a catch-to-year two that because the Mario franchise was so empty, there's a lot you could actually do with it. If you wanted to. But Nintendo are so risk-averse that they put out a crappy version of Pokemon Showdown with freemium mechanics. That is just worse than Pokemon Showdown. And are getting review bombed because they couldn't be bothered. They they announced this thing as this works with Pokemon Home so you can play with all of your Pokemon in competitive, and then it only launched with 200 po uh 120 Pokemon being usable in it.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

Wait, it didn't even launch with all 151?

SPEAKER_02 33:44

No. Just a collection of random Pokemon.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

That's pretty weird. It's bad. They wanted the Pokemon Showdown money, it couldn't be bothered to be as good as a free Flash game.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

That's sad. But okay, I mean I I guess I get what you're saying about them being risk averse and it negatively affecting the writing quality of the.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

Oh, just negatively affecting Nintendo as a whole. They're absurdly risk averse lately. They used to like be creative, and they're like, okay. They literally put out the Switch 2, and they're like, you know what we'll put out with the Switch 2? A worse version of every Switch 1 Mario title. Like, absurdly risk-averse. They're like, hey, remember how you like this? So we did that.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

That's true. They didn't even bother really, like, upgrading any of the Mario titles that they re-released.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Not just that, they didn't have like a flagship new thing with their new console. Hmm. They're just like, now we're good. No. To call Mario Kart World not a safe bet is insane to me. Because it was just Mario Kart. Yeah, that's true. Like, they were so unconfident in making it open world Mario Kart that they made the open world Mario Kart thing hidden in the menu and semi-optional. They had so little confidence they could be like, oh, we're gonna make this cool open world Mario Kart. Like, actually, we're just gonna have it do four tracks with some driving between the tracks that should do it. Like, literally, and I shit you not, Diddy Kong Racing's open world hub between the tracks had more content in it. You could run over a frog that looked like a rooster to unlock a rooster character. There's treasures and secrets, there's hidden levels, like Diddy Kong Racing on the Nintendo 64's open world was more interesting.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

That's pretty wild. Um I I just like I said, I find it really funny that uh the Mario Galaxy movie, uh, Mario is so clearly not the main character. Uh because like Peach answers the call to adventure, uh, interrogates villains for information, hires a space pilot, uh, breaks into a fortress, and rescues the princess.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Also, Yoshi was just there.

SPEAKER_03 36:05

But Mario, Luigi, and Yoshi weren't at all required for that plot, that that's the actual plot of the movie, for Princess Peach to do those things.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Like, so has it clicked into you yet that that was the exact plot of Star Wars New Hope?

SPEAKER_03 36:26

So risk-averse that they would rather just remake Star Wars than throw in some Mario Eastern eggs. Yeah. Even has the Death Star with the boobstay can in here.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

Wow. Yeah, they just made Star Wars. They even called it Galaxy.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

Well, I mean, that's because Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 uh uh are two of the most popular Mario games of all time.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah, but they didn't do the plots of Mario 1 and 2, they did Star Wars. That is true. Because the plot of Mario 1 and 2 is Bowser takes a superstar is conquering the universe, and you have to go out to stop him.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Which is not a great movie plot, but so was the idea of making a Mario movie in the first place, and then putting fucking Chris Pratt in a voice acting role instead of getting an actual voice actor. He just does Chris Pratt! Am I like I'm not insane for noticing this. I hate it.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

Okay, okay, okay. But um in any event, all I'm gonna say is if you like Nintendo, um Mario Galaxy is actually, you know, not terrible. Like it the Again, it's visually impressive. Uh tons of Easter Egging references, and this the musical score is absolutely on point. Like just fantastic. Um but the writing is mediocre at best. Uh so don't go and watch it if you're expecting a uh a thought-provoking movie.

Long Franchises And Stalled Growth

SPEAKER_02 37:59

So to actually get into our topic though, because it was largely turned into a mini Mario movie review, which makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_03 38:06

Well, yeah, but I mean it was also like my main my main question, which you answered when you defined all the different character types, was whether or not it is of character arc if the character doesn't learn anything. Uh because in both cases, Mario 1 and 2, they they all the characters are flat.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Oh yeah. Like looking at like flat arc characters like your Saitamas, your Goku's, your Jackie Chan in every movie he's in. But like to have a good flat arc character, you need other characters to arc around them. Like Gohan, Gohan went through some character went through a full coming of age story.

SPEAKER_03 38:46

That's true. Although his character arc settled on Nerdy Professor that has to relearn to protect people?

SPEAKER_02 38:56

No, no, his character arc ended with the cell games, and Dragon Ball Z ended and it was great. Ah, yeah, right, right, right. Everything else is just optional. Like Boo Saga feels like such a sequel series. That is true. Although even his character arc in the Boo Saga wasn't like Ohan's character arc in the Boo Saga wasn't too bad, because it was like, okay, I'm a pacifist, and I've lived my peaceful life, but now I have to go back for one last job. Isn't the worst arc? Hmm. Would you say John Wink Wick went through a character arc? Did he learn anything?

SPEAKER_03 39:30

Oh no, no. John Wick is uh a very black character as well. Well no, okay, I guess I'm not sure. No that I think about it, because like he got out of the assassin world and then rejoined because someone was a killed his dog.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

I would say his is either flat or I know because we all are all on his side, this is a weird one, but I think he does the Walter White negative change arc. He literally goes from a tax-paying bookbinding citizen on a mass murder rampage of vengeance until he kills everybody. Just because he's cool doesn't mean he didn't have the same character arc as Light Yagami.

SPEAKER_03 40:23

Uh um. Yeah, that's that's fair. I I would definitely say he had a negative change.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

That's it's just funny because he's the protagonist. Yeah. But like, he's sta he's just he slapped a horse to have it kick a man in the face, and we're like, yeah, that's awesome! And I'm like, most of these people did not need to die, to be honest. Like, every person he killed me he had to kill two more people.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

Okay, but so, um kind of a follow-up question, because like uh Jon Wick is is a has become fairly reasonably long franchise in five movies. Five movies, or is there only four? Four lots of last movies. I think there's four. And they're planning a fifth one? I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe the story's done. I kinda lost interest after John Wick 2, personally.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Well, John Wick 1 was an amazing movie. And much like the Z Saga, could have just ended. That was good.

SPEAKER_03 41:28

Uh Well, so the the longer running a franchise gets, the flatter the character arcs get.

One Piece Slow Growth And Side Arcs

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Unless you're awesome. Uh. So like I'ma talk about I'ma talk about One Piece. Ah, okay. So One Piece is in a truly lengthy runtime. One piece is a premium example of how to do most. It's they're not flat character arcs, they're just such a narrow, narrow curve. But also, they interact as flat arcs should. Luffy rolls up, who's basically a constant. And as through his actions, it inspires other people to go through their character arcs. Like literally every season of One Piece is him triggering someone to go through a character arc. But I do think each of the main characters in One Piece are very slowly arcing. Luffy's acting more intelligently and responsibly, I know that's it's almost impossible to tell because the curve is barely moving a pixel. But he is. He is becoming more intelligent and competent over the course of the show. He's still fun and has his smile and joy, but like he is changing. Right. Sanji should be becoming less sexist, but I don't know. Usap is becoming braver. Nami's becoming less greedy, like, everyone's like major character flaws are slowly shifting to strengths over the runtime of the show. It's just so minute. And really, it was only really evident when they did some time skips where they're going with it. But like, I would say every main character's on just the world's slowest growth arc. Except for Sanji, he's still just his sexist. Sanji could be fixed. Problem with Sanji is he's really cool if he wasn't a creep. But if you do something long-running like My Hero Academia, for example. Where Deku's core plot arc was trying to find the self-confidence required to rely on his friends. So it's like, at the very start, he's like, you can't be a hero without a superpower. And then he was like, I'm gonna become the greatest hero. But it slowly shifts to we're all gonna become heroes, and it's really more about everyone doing what they can. So over the like 300 chapter runtime, he actually learned his lesson somewhat.

unknown 43:51

Huh.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

Because it like ends up to be like, oh, I'm gonna be a teacher and teach the next generation of heroes, because that's the most heroic thing I can do.

CSI And When Shows Go Static

SPEAKER_03 44:00

So, I mean, to kind of completely shift uh genre gears, um CSI, the original CSI. Um I don't remember which season it kind of kind of flattens out. Uh but like the first season of the CSI, uh one character has a gambling addiction. Um character is in the middle of a messy divorce. Uh season two, the the main leader of uh war uh Rhysom, uh he has to grapple with the hearing loss problem and whether or not he should get surgery or should just retire. Um and so like all of these characters actually have arcs. And then by I I think it's by the end of the third season, all the arcs are done, and we're just onto fill-in-of-the-week, flat arc characters. Everyone's just a caricature rather than someone who actually grows and changes over the course of the series.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Oh yeah, it's absurdly hard to maintain a constantly going character arc forever. Because you can't. Like, yeah, people are constantly evolving, but you have to like. Like, we're talking about with the Zuko, where a character like backsliding is actually part of a good, well-written arc. But like, then you end up with a situation like House where it's like, he should just be in jail. He has simply committed too many crimes. And they're like, alright, I guess we'll actually put him in jail then. And then they actually put him in jail because he simply committed too many crimes.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

That's not true.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

So it's like House does not really get House probably comes closer to the Walter White breaking bad villain arc than he comes to a positive growth arc. I'm not sure he ever learns anything.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

No, I I don't think he does.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

But like, a thing you can pretty much say, well, like I like to say shows most shows should end at six seasons at the longest, is once your character arcs are done, your show quality will drop.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 46:10

That's why Dragon Ball Super is just simply not as good.

SPEAKER_03 46:14

Everyone's arc is done. And turning someone evil so that they can be redeemed again isn't really a fun character arc to watch over and over again.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Right? Like, so Dragon Ball Super's most compelling character arcs are Beerus becoming going through his like hero arc slowly. Beerus learning to care about the food providers, not just the food. Frieza being an unrepentant dick.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

And they were trying to set it up for Goku to finally take accountability for his actions and grow as a person, and then just didn't. Like this whole thing where it's like Goku put the entire universe at risk because of your selfishness. And like he wasn't like, yeah, it's a he gets like gives this cool monologue of I never said I was a hero. I'm just a selfish prick. And I'm like, that could be interesting, but you then like when like, oh actually, the universe wasn't gonna end in none of the stakes for real, and you're actually a good dude. I'm like, no. Let Goku go through full villain. Let Goku just be the problem, acknowledge it, and kind of low-key be evil. That'd be great. And then Ichigo doesn't learn shit.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Do you think Ichigo learned something?

SPEAKER_02 47:28

No! They can't- the problem is if you're gonna have a character arc or not arc, you gotta kinda commit to one or the other. So Ichigo looked like he was going to go through a hero's journey, covering of age story, learning, moving from independence to dependence, learning to going into the adult world, relying on people. Ichigo didn't learn shit. The character at the end of Bleach is the exact same character as the start of Bleach. He didn't learn a goddamn thing. There is not one action he would do differently, having went through the events of Bleach, they wouldn't have done the same at the start. First scene of Ichigo is let well, like episode two is I'm gonna call these ambulances, but not for me, and beat the shit out of these guys to learn them a lesson. And then he comes back to YuhaBox troops and does exactly the same scene. Where he just beats the shit out of four dudes again, calls an ambulance, but not for him, and then goes off to fight the main villain.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

I mean, he does have a little bit of irk, because at the beginning, he's like, No, I don't want to be a hero. But by the end, he's like, okay, I guess I'll I I should be a hero because I need to protect people.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

Except the I don't want to be a hero is a lie. It wasn't even I don't want to be a hero. It was I don't want to be part of your corporate bullshit. Uh yeah, okay. Because he had no problem being a soul reaper. Rookie's like, if you're a soul reaper, you need to be a soul reaper of everyone. He's like, fuck that shit, I didn't sign no contract. I'm gonna help people when a goddamn feel like it, and you can fuck right off. What's funny though is as a flat character, in early bleach before the roster got too bloated, it kinda worked. Because Captain I'm Better Than You gives a really beautiful speech about how no, this guy was never my enemy. It was the system that was an enemy, and I had to follow the rules because if I didn't, no one would follow the rules. So I needed to execute my sister. And then this guy came along and was like, fuck your rules, your rules are stupid. He's like, you know, thank you for beating the jet enemy. You're right, I was so focused on following the rules, I forgot that my rules are stupid. He's like, yeah. And then they walked away. Like Captain Kuchki and Rukia both had great character arcs. Rukia had a whole ass depression arc about how she failed her captain and wanted to die gloriously in battle, and then Ichigo would be like, yo, asshole, you're not allowed to just die. That's not how this works. He's like, but I can die and atone for everybody. He's like, fuck that shit, you need to live. So like Rukia went through a full depression coming out of it changed person arc. But yeah, Ichigo didn't learn shit.

SPEAKER_03 50:00

Okay, but so then uh if you start with a flat character, you know, I've been going for several seasons, uh, and then you introduce a character, is there a way to do that gracefully? Like in my Absolutely you can't. The thing in my mind is uh Mission Impossible, uh, where the characters are relatively flat and static. Uh but then in the last two movies, um suddenly uh Ethan Hunt has uh like a lover that died or whatever, and that's the main villain is like the murderer of the lover or something. I don't even know. Like it's just I watched all of the Mission Impossible movies, and suddenly this what felt like it was supposed to be an emotional character arc, uh came out of nowhere, and it felt poorly executed to me.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

So I was kind of alluding to this with my Dark Vader Anakin Skywalker comment earlier. Character arcs are typically designed to be written over a book or over a trilogy. That's typically how you structure something, right? So something, and then later you're like, okay, I'm gonna up the states and put in a character arc. That's not really the same character that's going through that arc in a weird way. Like, Daniel Craig's James Bond deciding to not have a character arc till the last movie. Sure. Let's have James Bond learn some things, but James Bond fundamentally is the most static character to ever static. Yeah, okay. Like, if we needed an example of static characters, we'd have even hunted James Bond.

SPEAKER_03 51:39

Right, and then when you get to the end of the series and they try to make the character learn something, and it's like, why? That's not what I'm here to see.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Yes and no, though, I do think you can do it well if you're dedicated to telling your story within the frame of a movie. So it's when it starts to bleed, it gets weird, right? So let's take like anime's such a good example for this. We're watching Anywasha, and Shoshomaru feels like a flat character at the start. And then about, I don't know, 40 chapters in, he on a whim decides to rescue a girl. To see how his magic sword works, and then we get Shoshomaru going through I would say almost a cliche redemption arc. Like, it literally ends with, Congratulations, you're redeemed, enjoy your new sword.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

Right, right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

But I'd say that one worked really well because they just like, you know what? Let's just give this character we haven't really given any emotional weight. Let's give him the why today moment later in the series. Because you know how every story starts with why today. You don't have to start every character with their moment of change hitting them. You can hit it later. It's not a good idea to do that with your main character. Like Full Metal Alchemist is just a positive change arc. Arguably a redemption arc. You can make a strong case that Edward Elric's character arc is a r is closer to Zuko's than it is to Aang's. Because Aang's is a classic coming of age, I need to stop avoiding responsibility and be the hero. Right. Edward Elric's is the I fucked up so unbelievably bad that I'm going to have to spend the rest of my life trying to make this right. But all like he goes through both though, because like he also goes through the positive change of you know, I was never actually important. I was just so I just couldn't save a I was just a dude who couldn't save a little girl. Literally, I have to just let other people do stuff. So Edward goes through amazing, complex, beautifully written character arcs, and then it wins a bunch of awards.

SPEAKER_03 53:55

And then Right, but the the series did end with his the end of his arc, basically.

Great Arcs In Modern Stories

SPEAKER_02 54:01

Oh yeah, like it was that's what makes it art. Now, Freerin's character arc is fascinating. Cause it is the world's slowest positive change arc. Because her why today was literally, oh shit, I didn't give a fuck about this person I loved. Uh oh. Yeah. It's like, wait a minute. Oh no, I done fucked up. I could have spent I could have spent fifty years with this person, and I simply didn't. Cause ADHD happened. And now they're dead. And I actually care this time, and I wasn't expecting to actually care this time. So like Freerin isn't even a complex character arc, it's literally just the basic positive change arc in like it's most Jesus of Nazareth basic positive change arc.

SPEAKER_03 55:08

But so aside from Shoshomaru, though, can you think of any other examples where there was a long-running flat character arc that suddenly had an actual arc?

SPEAKER_02 55:19

For long-running ones, it works best when you do it to random side characters. Right. Because like if we go through like the show and jump big ones, for example. In Bleach, the side characters sometimes would get arcs. But usually there were like the arcs would usually be in hindsight, or Ichigo would change them over the course of it. Right. Like, I don't think Kapachi learned anything, but we do get like, oh, he murdered his best friend because of his love of murder, and I guess he has to take murdering seriously. Now I don't know where you're going with this. And then Uru is like, I was a spy all along, and we're like, we know. No one for a second thought you betrayed us. Like, no. Even the characters weren't buying it. Right, right. So, like, as I was saying, like, Rukia and Captain, I'm better than you get a bit of arcs. I don't think Isa gets a plot arc. But like, we go to something like Dragon Ball. Piccolo went from static to interesting at the start of Z. Like no one's ever done before.

SPEAKER_00 56:23

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 56:25

Demon King Piccolo was the most one-note character to ever exist. I'm gonna release all the world's prisoners because it's funny.

SPEAKER_03 56:36

I don't know that Demon King, like I wouldn't necessarily say that Demon King Piccolo was a long-running static character.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

But he was extremely static.

SPEAKER_03 56:46

He was extremely static. But he was the protagonist or the antagonist uh for a single season, basically.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

Yeah, and then Piccolo Jr. comes in as a more interesting character arc. Where it's like, alright, where are we going with this? And then we get the Piccolo Gohan arc, and it's like, no no, they turn Piccolo like Piccolo easily could have been another Tien. Tien was a worthless data character who learned nothing and did nothing.

SPEAKER_03 57:17

He kind of the anime makes Tienn uh seem way more of a villain uh than he was in the in the manga. Um because like Tien just literally goes around murdering people for no reason.

SPEAKER_02 57:31

I'm just saying he's like as flat of a character as Mario, like Tien's redemption arc happens in his little plot arc of actually the martial arts guy you listen to is bad, and you should be a good guy. Okay, and then it's done forever. There's nothing there.

SPEAKER_03 57:48

I mean that's true.

SPEAKER_02 57:52

Like most Dragon Ball Z characters, you're bad, be good instead. Okay, arc over.

SPEAKER_03 58:00

Not very many villains have that Zuko. Like I think I think that's what makes Zuko one of the uh shiny examples of how to do a redemptioner. Because he has those backslide moments, uh, and because a lot of his actions still end up being self-serving. Um as compared to, like I said, Dragon Ball Z is or Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are like the epitome of um was a villain, turn a switch, now they're a good guy.

SPEAKER_02 58:29

But I will say the reason Piccolo to me is the most pr compelling DBZ character by a ton for their arc, is he does a reverse backslide. So, Piccolo is like, oh, I guess I'm a good guy now, I'll be a begrudging good guy. But then he actually tells off Goku for being a shit dad. Like you get to the cell games, he's like, the fuck are you doing? Do you not know how to parent? And like the idea that your villain got so emotionally invested in your protagonist that he's telling the other protagonist you need to be better at being a protagonist, the fuck's wrong with you? Right? Like, that's rare. Like, every dra other Dragon Ball Z character's like, I guess I'm a good guy now begrudgingly, even Vegeta. But then Piccolo's like, Do you even know your son? Like, what are you doing here? So it's like Piccolo switches Like his personality doesn't change, he just changes his target to being, instead of I hate humanity, I'm like, be better at being humanity. God damn it. If I have to be a good guy, you guys need to get your shit together. Right. So Piccolo is great, is all I'm saying. But he was also not a particularly flat character to begin with by Dragon Ball Z standards.

SPEAKER_03 59:41

Hmm. Well, and I mean, like I said, he does kind of have like his Demon King Piccolo is the antagonist of one arc. Piccolo Jr. is the antagonist of the next arc. Uh and then the next arc, he's kind of making his redemption, but he's really just kidnapping Goku's kids and like straight up abuse him. Gohan triggers Piccolo's arc more than Goku does.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

I think Piccolo triggers Piccolo's arc weirdly though, because like it's not just Gohan, he's like, I need to conquer the world because it's mine. But like you see, like moments where he's like, I don't know, Piccolo's arc's interesting, is all I'm saying. It definitely it definitely does have ups and downs, for sure. It's less linear of a curve. But then we get to JJK where no one learned anything ever at any point. Not one character acts differently after the story than they would have before the start of the story. Except maybe Yuji gets angsty. But he even ends befriending Tsukuna, so. Kinda.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:52

No, I mean probably one of the best character arcs um in modern anime was uh How do you number eight?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:00

Yes. Oh my god, yes. It's like such a good coming-of-age story that starts at 30.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:12

It is, and and like he also inspires other people to change as well and grow and and adapt and overcome grief and like it's it's such a good treatise of never giving up on your dreams.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

And just like trying your best, like, oh, so good. I hope he inspired an entire generation to go into like firefighting school and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:43

Uh another uh really uh I love um Post and Boots The Last Wish.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:50

Yes, absolutely, this is the good one.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:54

Uh because it's just like Post and Boots himself, uh, you know, he wants to uh find the wish so that he can get more lives back and go back to being his selfish self. Uh but then obviously he learns that he needs to value the life that he has and the the friendships that he's that he's formed. Uh but then you know they also have Goldilocks. I mean she kind of learns the same lesson where she wants to wish for a new family, and then she learns that uh the bears are her family. And there's even the heart-wrenching moment uh where Mama Bear says, Oh, you didn't think we're your real family? Well, if you want this wish to wish for a new family, I guess I'll put my own pride aside and help you to fulfill your wish, and it's like, oh. And it's like they're both kind of learning the same lesson lesson, but they take different pathways to that lesson. Uh but then uh Jack Warner is just allowed to be an irredeemable villain. Like it Yeah. Oh. Like, I mean, he is the flat character, he doesn't exactly inspire the other people to change, but he helps move the story forward and helps those people change through his staticness.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:10

Oh, yeah, like, it's easy to say that one is a com especially in the genre compared to Mario directly of like animated movies with arcs, that's a great one. I am torn how much people are actually learning in the Sonic movies.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:26

So I got a side tangent. I do really enjoy the Sonic movies. Oh, I love the Sonic movies. But the trope of weaponizing video game mechanics. Oh. Like every every video game adaptation except Mario, which is kind of why I like it. Uh that's like that's the plot. Oh, there's a video game where stuff power-ups happen where the military is gonna go in and weaponize those power-ups. That's that's like every video game adaptation ever.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

Strong counterpoint for Sonic, because you still haven't paid through the gems that are Sonic went into. And Sonic, that's Canada. Like, literally the plot of Sonic Adventure 2 is the US military trying to steal the Kerry's emeralds and hiring Dr. Robonic's insane grandfather to clone them a weapon to use the like. That's like it they adapted the source material and they let both Robotics exist simultaneously, as they have one just being in a straitjacket and reading their manifesto post-mortem. But like a lot of the like I how can I put it this way? It's not tropey if it's supposed to be there. Because tropes are tropes for a reason.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:42

Maybe that's why the Sonic movies are actually decent adaptations.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:47

Well, like, the portal rings are kind of weird, because it's like, yeah, there was rings at the end of stages that warp two places, but the regular rings weren't teleporty rings. So that one was like they did the best they could. But yeah, collecting the Chaos Emeralds to turn into Supersonic to Laser B Megman is like literally the plot. Like, yes, that is what happens. Yes, the US government did put an evil Sonic clone in a basement to use as a super weapon. Having him run in circles to power up the Death Laser was weird though, because the Death Laser is just supposed to be powered up by the Chaos Emerald. I don't know why they did that. But the point is they got the vibes right. But I think Sonic, they're trying to do the coming of age story, and they're splitting it across the arcs where every movie he comes like a little further into adulthood. Instead of starting with a fully matured Sonic, I think was the move. Right. Because the first movie he just wants to be loved desperately and is avoiding not avoiding the call to action, but avoiding like life. Like he's like running from his problems, quite literally. And then the second movie is like, okay, now that there's a younger person with me, I need to step up and kind of be the More mature person because I have this tails idiot with me. And then Knuckles is like reminds me of how bitter I was in the first movie, so I'll try and befriend him. And the third movie's like, you killed my dad, I'm gonna fucking kill you. And then he's like like all three of them, he's kind of growing as a character, which by making the character deliberately childish, you can get away with that. And then Knuckles is perfect. Knuckles is not a static character. He is arcing hard. He's like, I'm a brave warrior, but I need to learn how to be softer and gentler, despite having fists for hands that literally can't hold things. And they try to talk other people be like, you need to be a braver warrior, bowling dude. And he's like, I do, Knuckles. I do need to be a brave warrior.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:52

Oh man. The first half of the knuckle show was so bad, but the second half made up for it in spades.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:58

The first half had to be so bad for the second half to be so good. I love the entire thing for the record.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:07

I mean, okay, I mean the first half was very amusing, but it was so and then and and just You had to let it play out, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:19

You yeah, you had to give them a chance to get there. Also, I respect a six-episode miniseries just being done, and like, yes, we did this tie in mini-series, so that way we could sell a DVD labeled Sonic 3 and Knuckles. We did it. We did the object entire objective. That was the objective, by the way, so you could then sell a DVD case that said Sonic 3 and Knuckles on it. That's hilarious. Like they win. That was the game set match. Although it is funny that they put Knuckles in the second movie when he shows up and says, ah, whatever, I'm just being pedantic. And then Sonic 4 is setting itself up to be a dope time travel story, and I'm all for it. Which is also canon from the source material. But yeah, like, I'm not saying the character arcs are good in Sonic, I'm saying they're there. True. Also, Robotnik goes through a full Walter White breaking bad character arc. While also going through an unrelated romance movie that slow burns over three movies. He literally dies proclaiming his love to Agent Stone. Like, so good. Don't even. He's just like, I hate everyone and everything, and I just went from being a government employee to an actual super villain. But also have finally come to terms with my emotions. It's such a weird parallel. Like, think about how beautiful that character arc is of someone going full Walter White while simultaneously learning to love the people around them.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:01

Uh, yeah, and uh that has so much emotional weight. Uh like I said it was spread out over three movies. Right?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:09

Like I do think it wasn't planned on the first movie, and they saw the fan fix, like, you know what we can do.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:18

Robotic and stone.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:23

It's like the second movie, they leaned into it hard. Mm-hmm. And then the third movie, it's like, and payoff. I would I did not think there'd be payoff. The idea that that is the thing he talks about during his final moments, which I don't believe for a second, but the fact that that's what he talks about during his possible final moments. Also, I do believe there's a non-zero chance that Jim Carrey doesn't come back. Agent Stone's gonna put on the fat suit and just be the new robot to honor his last love.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:57

Yeah, yeah, that's fair. Because I mean Jim Carrey is getting pretty a lot of actors are getting pretty old, actually. It's kind of surprising. Like um Liam Neeson in uh The Naked Gun. Firstly, then he's like actually like 71. It was like I did not realize Liam Neeson was that old. But secondly, uh I mean I don't know if he'd really call it a character arc since it's a parody movie, but he does learn stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:29

You can have a character arc in a parody. Shrek is one of the most best examples of all time for body positivity.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:46

I didn't some actors I don't realize how old they are and just like, wait. They could like die tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:52

Well, so could I, theoretically? Oh, that's true. Like, yeah, being old doesn't just give you immortality, so you have it the whole time.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:03

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, no one no one saw the death of Chuck Norris coming. RP Chuck Norris. Yeah, he didn't die.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:13

Well, while we're talking character arcs though, did Forrest Gump learn anything? Is he a different character by the end of the movie? Or is it literally just everyone that runs into him?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:25

No, uh Forrest Gump is definitely a super flat character. Uh, but that's like the point of the movie. Is that it's like uh uh walking through American history and watching America grow and learn around him. Uh yeah, Forrest Gump is almost supposed to be like he's not exactly a self-insert character. But he's supposed to be just bland and there for everything, but not really like he doesn't act his actions and and choices don't really drive the story.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:05

Here's one for you. What would you say Truman's character arc was in the Truman show? In the Truman show. Because I don't he was not a flat character. He reacts. He starts flat, as you said earlier, like can a character start flat and go somewhere. I'm like, no, the point in the Truman show is people are filming him and he's consistent. And then he gets aware that reality is fake. I wonder if it's closer to Pain's arc, where like he starts optimistic and then becomes deeply disillusioned and then ends up optimistic at the end.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:50

I would definitely say that that's a a way to simplify it down into one sentence. Um But I mean there's also this aspect of uh overcoming fear and uh taking control of your life. Like a that's kind of a character argument's own where you can overcoming fear and taking control of your situation. Um where a lot of people just let fear or other things other circumstances around them dictate their actions, and the idea is that you have to learn how to control your fear and and choose your own path.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:34

That is very reasonable.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:38

And then yeah, like Vegeta gets an obvious redemption arc, and then the end of his arc is basically in the Boo Saga where he blows himself up.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:49

Oh yeah, Vegeta's arc absolutely for him to do like the full redemption arc, Vegeta justifies the existence of the Bu Saga. Gohan does not.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:02

And Gohan was really the main character.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:05

Although Vegeta, to be fair, he had his moment when he when his baby boy dies and he goes on a rampage and then apologizes to Gohan. So like Vegeta had his arc and then they did it again. But they did it pretty good the second time. Uh the fact that Guts from Berserk is still an optimist at the end of his story, even a little bit. Like, the fact that he's still trying is truly impressive.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:34

Uh.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:35

Yeah. I'm just gonna say, like, we did like Legend of the Legendary Hero, where the entire series just hated Reiner Lute for no particular reason. Poor guts, man. Life just hates guts. How do you feel about Denji's character arcing with our current quote-unquote end of the series? Where he literally learning anything got undone. Or maybe you gotta keep his learned experience. It's hard to say if it's the reset den- Let's assume the reset Denji has his personality shifts from Chainsaw Man having happened, but doesn't remember that they happened.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:14

It does seem like that's sort of the case because they have like pseudo-memories of uh of events and people that happened. Uh but then those no no, that's just craziness.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:24

Um like I still don't believe this, by the way. I think he's gonna release a new manga, and then five chapters in is gonna be chance on it. We're getting Steel Ball runned. Maybe. I don't trust this bastard.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:43

I'm gonna say the the end of the safety uh safety public safety arc um literally said end of the public safety arc, where this one actually just said the end.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:55

I don't trust it. Don't trust this bastard. Too clean. What? As for where like Denji grows. Or lack thereof. I don't think it's flat though. Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:12

I don't know that he actually would make any different choices at the beginning. At the end, as they at the beginning, though. He would just die faster.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:24

Like I mean, like, he learns that surface-level pleasures he thought he wanted won't truly satisfy him.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:34

Well that's true. Unlike the uh Hoochie.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:42

Hoochia.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:43

Hoochia, yeah, that's the one. Um even says, like, you know, you're the worst kind of human because you're only happy when you're unhappy.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:52

Um, but like part one ended with him rejecting blind dependence on other people, right? Like, he's like, nah, I can't just listen to Machman, I can't just I need to like decide what I want for myself.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:07

And then the best kind of get undone by his by the reset.

unknown 1:17:13

Did it?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:14

Because, like, he has interactions with power in the original timeline, where I don't trust you, I don't like you, and then she's like, nah, I can win you over, then he lusts after her, then he realizes that's a bad idea, and after the reset, immediately just goes for friends. Instantly bros instead. So he does not let his sex drive choose how he interacts with power after the reset, which directly changes the relationship. He might have drank his respect woman juice, resulting in having a best friend. Is that not how that played out?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:55

To be clear, Genji was always all about consent.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:59

True, but like I do think that like original Genji, first time he met power, was instant dislike, hatred, then she manipulates him like everyone could easily. And the new version, they're just being bros killing demons and like bantering. Like they went straight to their banter step and skipped the like what he learned through his friendship with her kind of carried over. That's my argument, is Denji actually learned to He learned delayed gratification. Instead of taking out the thing he wants instantly, he learned to slow roll it at least a little bit. So, like, for example, when he saves uh War Devil in the second version, he just saves her and goes on with his day, which results in her liking him this time. Instead of immediately trying to be like, no, no, you're with me now. Fair enough. So I do think he learned to like chill. I I do think he came out different at the end, because we literally watch him repay the same scenes.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:06

And make different choices.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:07

Yeah. And the different choices were largely like being less desperate, if that makes sense. Well, I mean he's learned to set his sights higher, too. Yeah. So I think like, I think he went through a character arc. The ending annoys me, but I do think it was a surprisingly good character arc. And even though the ending I don't trust and I don't believe, I will have to say Chainsaw Man was a good piece of media.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:42

I do appreciate uh that it actually ended, even if the ending was rather abrupt.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:49

I think my problem is like conceptually I like the idea that Chainsaw Man that eats things to make them exist will then just make himself not exist. I think I don't like that they didn't establish why that was the mechanic. Why Chainsaw erases things was missing.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:07

Or I missed it. No, I I don't think it was in there. Because like it was just like, and he has the scariest power of them all.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:15

But I do enjoy the like consuming yourself so you stop existing to give a reset when like I was like I was completely on board with the reset. I was not on board with the reset being two chapters and ending. Like I was completely on board with the reset being the start of Act 3. Right. That that's where I'm at. It's like, yeah, his power got too wack-a-doodle, the scaling broke, so he just reset by resetting the reset power to make the non-existent power non-exist, therefore making everything exist. Yeah, I I was weirdly on board with that. But like, let's see. Other character arcs while we're on this topic. So yeah, I stand by my statement that Vader's redemption arc and Anakin's negative arc was not the same Vader, really.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:14

Like they went back in the suddenly It's like a sign curve where you know he he does his arc up and then he does his arc down and comes back to where he was. But they're not really the same character, just they're following opposite arcs.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:30

Well, not that so much as the time and disconnect and tone of the two stories. Like, if you say picture Anakin Skywalker and you say picture Darth Vader, that's just not the same dude. Fair enough. Like, they don't feel like a continuous story. If you can do a prequel and then have it feel like a continuous version of a character, but it really didn't have that. Like all the little quirks and habits and like the like character choices that made Anakin a character, none of that made it into Vader. Because one was a dramatic little bitch, and the other one was Vader. Like he literally went from yappy to completely silent. And like, even like the word choice of like Anakin wasn't out here going, I hope you don't choke on your aspirations, good doctor. Like, just their vernacular's not even the same. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. So, like, it doesn't feel like a character who went through two arcs, it feels like two characters. We had a similar problem with Goku at Dragon Ball Super, where like this is a caricature of a character, not actually the same character.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:43

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Um again, that's that's kind of like uh when you have those long-running series, it is like you say, it's really hard to keep a consistent character arc while also being fresh and new every season. So it's like once they flatline, then eventually they just become caricatures rather than actual dynamic, interesting characters, and you have to introduce side characters to be able to keep things dynamic and interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:14

Where One Piece had a cheat code, where right near the start, they're like, I'm gonna have every character loudly put their foot on a barrel and say exactly what they're trying to do. So they're literally like, here is what I am trying to do. And we like to talk about the cross-purpose want versus need. But if a character literally just puts their foot on a barrel and yells their want out loud, then us in the viewers can be like, okay, now what needs to happen for them to fill this emotional hole? Like, as well as like, I want to be the best swordsman in the world. It's like, no, no, you need to get over the death of your childhood friend to carry on their legacy. And they're like, okay, we can watch it moving towards like you want to be the best. That means you have to be calmer, more responsible, can't run off half c like you can see him learning lessons. Right. And you can kind of see all of them learning lessons. I mean, Nami's lesson's pretty basic where it starts like, I want to draw a math the world. Alright, stop being a greedy bitch then. Gotta actually like go to the world and see the world. Can't be all about the money, sorry. Yeah. Well, it's funny because like, even like on a Google search, people be like, oh yeah, Luffy's going through a flat arc, and I'm like, I don't think that's true. I think like he's caring more and more about world politics because he's starting to realize that his goal of making everyone in the world free to l eat as much as they want is becoming increasingly complex. Right. Even though he's still a YOLO character. I think he's gaining some more understanding as he YOLOs his way through life. At least after his brother dies in front of him.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:53

Uh, four Ace.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:55

One of the only characters to die in the series. Although, shout out to One Piece for killing people when they die.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:02

How many people have actually died in One Piece?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:05

Like four.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:09

Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:11

I mean, I guess that's higher than I expected, but also like Otis said in I quote, when I kill a character, they're dead. And I'm not gonna kill a I'm not gonna fake kill a character. When I kill a character, they're dead because we killed them.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:24

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:25

Well you, JJK.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:28

Uh JJK. Yeah, and then I'm just thinking of things like uh assassination classroom. Would you say Koro Sensei went through an arc? I'm trying to decide. I know all the students did specifically. Most of them, like literally all of them went through the same coming-of-age arc.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:53

I don't really I don't really think so. I don't I don't think he necessarily learned to care more for his students or anything. Like he like I'm pretty sure he is that sad character who is the vessel through which all the other characters change.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:10

Yeah. Where Nagasa learned it's okay to be a cross dresser as long as you're a badass. Karma learned he has to occasionally not be a dick so he can conquer the world. Like, every character went through their little k every one of them went through a classic coming-of-age arc in some way, shape, or form. Which was the literally the point of anything with the word classroom on it. You failed your show if it's a classroom show, and your characters don't go through coming of age stories. Like, if you didn't Harry Potter or Araby your characters going through these arcs, what was the point?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:44

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:46

Harry Potter, also every character went through a basic it-bitch coming-of-age arc. Although Snape's redemption arc is the most bullshit thing I've ever seen. And they've accidentally made it extremely racist in the live-action one that Warner Bros and Prime's doing. So, Snape's Redemption Arc is, oh, I bullied you for the last ten years, but I secretly loved your mom. That's a bad redemption arc, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:16

That is not a very good redemption arc.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:18

But in the original version, it's like, oh yeah, Snape was bullied relentlessly by Harry Potter's dad and friends. And they bullied him because he was like a weird loner, etc. etc. They've recast Snape as the only black man at Hogwarts.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:33

The only black man at Hogwarts?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:35

And it changes everything.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:38

Yeah, I mean I I've definitely heard that they they re I didn't realize he was the a token black character.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:44

Like what So if you go, oh yeah, my dad b bullied this guy because he was weird and different. Takes on a bit of a different meaning in your British boarding school when your pureblood wizards bully this kid for being weird and different. And is the only person of color at the school, and then the parents don't want him to be interested in their daughter because he's weird, because he's the only person of color at the school. Like Huh. It's the choice. Yeah. And it's like, why is Sneep so mean to us? And I'm like, well, it used to be he's so mean to you because he was a wizard Nazi trying to reform doing it being a double agent. Now it's because he faced systemic racism for the last 50 years. Blatantly. Oh, that's unintentionally hilarious. I mean, I refuse to watch it because I don't want to give the transphobic wizard money. And also. I watched a full video on it. The second win channel does really good deep dives into games and movies and things. And they're talking about good adaptations versus bad. Okay. And the thing is. you can do a good adaptation of a story that's already done before. But though one of the best ways to do it is through art direction, structure, and like creative vision. Like, let's use Hamlet for example. So in Hamlet, we've had so many versions of Hamlet. But each one of them will choose different costumes, set design. Actually, Romeo and Juliet's a better example. Have you seen the Romeo and Juliet one that happens in Gangland Chicago?

SPEAKER_03 1:29:33

Yeah, when you said uh Hamlet, I thought you were gonna talk about the Lion King as a good adaptation of. Yes, though.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:39

Like objectively, that's true. Because you're telling the same basic story, but you've changed so much of it, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:47

As for the answer to your question, uh yes, I have. And Neo and he's like, get me my sword, and it's just the shotgun.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:54

I love that scene with my entire heart. And it says sword is like the brand name on the shotgun. So you could definitely take a source text. Like Frankenstein, there's so many versions of it. But you can absolutely take a source text, and you're not even changing a single line of dialogue, but through camera work, addressing, motion, acting choices, make an interesting, compelling story. Right. But like, every character looks the same for Harry Potter, they're just making it longer. Like, they're using the same aesthetic, the same artwork, the same, like they're different character actors, but like trying as close as they could to just match what happened before.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:35

Right. Which is terrible and boring. They're trying to they're they're trying to more closely adapt the books, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:41

Yeah, but you can still do that with vision. Like, no, they're really trying to sequel like the video made a strong point of it. They're not trying to adapt it to be more faithful, they're trying to adapt it to trigger your nostalgia to have people who watch the movies then watch the show by making it comforting and familiar. Because you can absolutely, like. The books aren't precise enough, especially Harry Potter, to tell you what every character's wearing in every scene, or the lighting, or the mood, or the candle. Like, some details are in the book, and a lot were in the movie that they've just kept. Like the score, for example. Books don't have scores.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:22

Oh yeah, that's a good point. They could have written a new new score to change the mood of the series.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:27

Like, one of my favorite examples is Epis The Pilot of Supernatural had a lot of 2000s music. Like, it had a lot of like MM and shit. And then episode one, they're like, no, no, we're going 60s rock, and we're opening with Carry On My Warwick Sun by Kansas. And the entire vibes of that show change completely based on the era of rock music. Because they went rock instead of going like RB and rap and more modern genres. And that changes the entire show. Yeah?

SPEAKER_03 1:32:00

So like a long time ago, um I uh there's there's a website called OC Remix. Um and they as the tit the title suggests, they do remixes of uh music. But it mostly it's video game music. I love OC Remix. Not a sponsor, just a band. Um and I I downloaded a song, it was uh Kepka vs. Koopa. Yeah. Um I really like the song. Um but I went walking outside and I was listening to this to the song through headphones, uh, and it's like a dark, spooky, casual kind of uh end boss kind of apocalyptic music, basically. Um and the music almost made me feel paranoid. Like I I felt noticeably like uh brighter and happier when I took my headphones off. I was like, yeah, you know, the sun is actually shining, I'm not gonna like get jumped by someone. But when I had my headphones on, I was like, oh everything's kinda like dark and scary. So it's like the the score, like I say, with with the Mario movie, a really, really good score. I can't really elevate a movie, although it doesn't fix all of the problems.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:20

No, absolutely not, but like my point is that like you can tar take something. How can I put this? I don't dislike tropes. I dislike copy pasting. So it's like I always dunk on JJK because it's the exact plot of Bleach with the main character of Naruto. But I don't dislike those tropes. If I did, I wouldn't be reading this magazine weekly. I dislike how they don't do anything fun with it. So let's put some light on Kagura Banji, because it's awesome. It is awesome. I think every character in that is working through something. I think the main character Zark is literally learning to feel again.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:13

Well, I kind of appreciate that we're starting to get more of um teleporting man's backstory.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:19

Right, because the show needed a second character that I cared about. No offense, like they gave me a bunch of caricatures that were interesting, but didn't quite get around to fleshing them out as characters yet. Which is fine, because like you want to establish your universe, your setting, your characters to start with. Right. Although I will say, uh Bleach early on, I struggled with this too. So being so white that moonlight can give me a sunburn. I am not good when every character has a two-word, full-length, traditional Japanese name without giving me a nickname or an anchor point.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:59

Right. To the point where all the captains had had nicknames, you know, Captain I'm better than you, uh, Captain Tuberculosis, Captain Hippie.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:09

Right, and the thing is, like, I got used to their names now, having been through the manga, the series, the series, the series, the sequel, the series. Like, I'm good now, but like Kagura Bonchi, I don't know no one's name. It's not like they're yelling out their names too. Like, One Piece half of the runtime is characters yelling out other characters' names dramatically. Well, they gave them all like well, first off, they're all like monosylbolic names, or like they'll have one or two syllables at most, right? They'll give every character a nickname, and they'll repeatedly yell them. Like Zorro, the fate named after the famous swordsman Zorro, as a character's just yelling Zorro at least once a chapter. Pirate Hunter Zorro, world's best swordsman Zorro. Zorro the bounty hunter, Zoro. This is Zorro, the bounty hunter Zoro. Here's Zoro's wanted poster. I'm like, I think this guy's name is Zorro. Catlaberglor Nami. Nami wants to be a navigator. Nami the navigator. It alliterates. Actually, uh, poor Usopp is such a clever name because it was literally just Aesop's fables because he lies all the time. Like, that's good, right? Right, right. Like, that is objectively clever.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:31

But back to Kagura Banji. Uh it this flashback arc is is nice, that is going to help develop uh well, firstly, it sets the groundwork for what we've already seen, and secondly, it's gonna help develop characters that's like we know who they are, but we're gonna have a deeper understanding of of their motivations.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:50

And I love a good flashback arc when handled well. Like, Bleach's was good, but they forgot to give us character depth. Naruto's was great. Kakashi's flashback arc was delightful.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:06

Oh yeah, it definitely like reframes uh Kakashi's character it so completely uh that he almost became a main character. He did become a main character.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:17

Like he was like basically a tritagonist at that point. I think Kakashi got more screen time and dialogue than Sasuke. And Sasuke got more than Naruto. Am I wrong? Obido was the main villain. Who fought Obido? Like Obido was the main villain, who fought Obido? Kakaji. Yeah. So it's like, oh man. Also, One Piece is just better in its flashbacks and side stories than it actually is in this plot.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:51

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:52

One Piece is like a super interesting manga hidden within a longer, less interesting manga. Yeah. So I do you want to watch Gold Roger and Garp team up during the slave the government mandated slave hunt in God Island? I'm like, yes, I wanna watch that. Cool, we'll give you one piece of it at a time over eight years. Ugh! But like, yes, I want to see that. Show me that! Like, nah, we're good. Do you want to watch this person slowly be turned into a robot to save his sick daughter? What is this better manga you're showing me? They'd be like, do you care about the revolutionary army setting up a blockade to get food starve the fat people living on the top of the world in order to force them to have to leave their castle? I'm like, yes! Yes, I want to watch that. It's like too bad. You're gonna watch Luffy Pike Kaido and a root for 40 episodes. I'm like, but cooler things are happening! Yeah, but I mean, like, you have to have the longest anime fight in history. Ugh. That it wasn't a good enough fight to justify it. Like, the fight didn't have enough twists and turns, and like like Goku vs. Frieza at the very least was a dynamic fight. Like, it kept shifting everything. Like, I'm actually ride or die, defend the 48-episode tournament of power, literally being each minute of this fucking tournament is an entire episode. I was ride or die for that. That was great. Don't do it twice. But uh you can sell me on, like, as someone who watches Record of Ragnarok, where every fight is about five episodes long of just a single two-person fight because we tell them their entire fake Wikipedia page. I love it. I'm ride or die on the longest anime fight of all time. I love slow pacing. But it gotta be worth it. I gotta care about the two people in this fight. Yeah. And I did not care about Kaido.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:56

I cared about Frieza. It's funny because like I I don't actually know anything about Kaido, I just know it's the longest anime fight in history.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:04

That's kind of my entire point.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:07

Yeah, that that obviously means uh that that character was not given any sort of arc.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:14

Well, what's funny about Frieza, and this is gonna be a hot take, Frieza's arc on Namek was fascinating because everything Frieza did got defeated because he was a cocky shit as Frieza's life slowly unraveled in front of him. Like, Frieza's like, oh, you killed my troops, my best friends, my scouter, you blew up my thing, you took away my immortal like you just watch Frieza, never one lost a fight, but kept losing the war repeatedly. And by the time Goku's fighting Frieza, you're like, oh man, Goku, Goku has it coming. Oof.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:55

Because you're like, oh. You can give your villain an arc uh without having them to be like like change in any positive way.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:05

Like, well, I'm just saying, let's switch it and say Frieza was the protagonist. We watch Frieza show up to this planet, get jumped by like 30 different people. And like in the Dragon Ball Z games where you play the Namek saga from Frieza's point of view, you're like, oh, the small child and this bald man defeated my plans. Oh, Vegeta came back. Vegeta is stronger now. He killed my lieutenant. Oh, Zebrabotom's dead. Oh, Dedoria's dead. Better call the Gide News. Oh, the Gid News are all dead. Hey, I found a Namek. Oh, he tricked me. Oh, this other one tricked me. Oh, they stole my wish. Okay, I killed the first three. Oh, this guy's back. Oh, I killed him. Oh, these three are back. Oh, they dropped a stun on me. Like, that fight, from Frieza's point of view, is such a bitch of a fight. Because every time you knock someone down, two more take their place from nowhere.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:00

Yeah?

SPEAKER_02 1:42:01

Like, oh man. Frieza had every Frieza's fully justified, man. The end of Zanamic arch be like, I'm gonna find your planet and blow it the fuck up. Dude's entire Roman Empire burned on the hands of two children and a green dude.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:23

Yeah, and then Gyoku shows up to save the day out of nowhere, and he's like, who the heck is this guy? Oh, he's the legendary Super Saiyan. Dang it.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:32

That's the funniest part is Vegeta being like, you can't defeat the Super Saiyan, like that is some stupid bullshit, and you're some stupid bullshit. Like, the Dragon Ball Z abridge versus two is like, there's no fucking way this is actually happening right now. Absolutely not. Uh but yeah, so any other interesting character arcs come to mind?

Why Fights Drag When Stakes Fail

SPEAKER_03 1:42:56

No, I think I've gone over them all. Um I guess we talked fair bit. We didn't cover all of fiction. Well, yeah, but I mean all the interesting ones that that come to mind. Like I say, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:07

Alright, let's do a bit of a lightning round today. We're gonna do a lightning round where I'm gonna tell you the type of arc, and you're giving me an example of a good one and a bad one. Oh.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:19

Alright, so good at a lightning round, but we'll see how this goes.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:22

First up, the positive change arc.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:26

The positive change arc.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:28

A character grows internally.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:32

Uh oh man, I'm really bad at lightning rounds.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:36

Get better.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:38

Get better, Scrub.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:40

I'm gonna give you the most basic one of all time. Scrooge. Scrooge.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:47

Oh yeah, okay. That's a pretty good positive change arc.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:50

The positive change arc. Uh but as a bad positive change arc? Yeah, one where they try to do it and you're just like, no. Um trying to trying to think where like something where they're trying to sell you on this character's getting better, and you're like, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:16

Well, I mean, what I'm thinking about, I'm what I'm trying to think about, I know there's examples, but like, because I'm bad at these at least lightning rounds, but it's like uh the character is just so completely, irredeemably evil, uh, and then they get punched in the face by the good guy, and they're like, oh, I'm a good guy now.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:33

So a good example of a bad one is Endeavor in My Hero Academia was a wife beater and then ends with like temporary visits to his family because he was a hero. I'm like, you were a wife beater and practiced eugenics. Fuck you. It's like, but you don't understand, I fought heroically against the villain. I'm like, but your crimes weren't related to that.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:55

Yeah, that's that's what I mean. That's definitely a bad positive change art.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:59

Or any character in one of these I got reincarnated to be a sex offender mangos where they're like, I was bullied, and then I came back, and now like I'm a good guy because I beat up this woman who was mean to me in a past life who's technically done nothing wrong to me in this one.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:15

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:18

Okay, okay. What's what's her next cry?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:20

No, no, you never gave me one.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:22

Oh, okay, a bad one. Uh the the main character from solo leveling, whatever his name is. Shin Wu? Yeah, that's not a good positive change arc.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:33

I think you gave this argument before, and I'm with you. Him trying to like grow up, like his motivation to save his mom, and then becoming more morally gray to achieve it, like, I don't know, like, it almost worked for the first bit, but then dropped the ball.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:50

Well, like I said, I I absolutely loved his motivation, like the at the very start, the choice that he makes between going into the dungeon to to make more money to potentially save his mom, or saving the people that are in front of him, uh, ends up just catastrophically backfiring on him, and you know, then he has to spend all this time trying to basically right the wrongs and and figure out how to save his mom with the power, with the circumstances he's given, but but uh Yeah, no, I like they try to make it seem like it's a positive change arc, but no, he just becomes blander and less interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:30

I agree. And I already gave my big example of Ichigo to some learned shit, even though the series is framing me like he's supposed to be. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:37

Well what's our next one?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:39

Negative change arc. One of the iconic ones being Joker, Arthur Fleck from 2019's Joker. Or Michael Coyone in the Godfather, where someone just gets worse over the course of the story. I need a good example and a bad example.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:57

I did not like Sons of Anarchy. Uh, but that is a good example of a negative change arc. A lot of people really liked it, uh, where he starts out and he's trying to get out of the biker gang, and then he just falls further and further and further in until he sees no way out besides unaliving himself.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:16

So I'm gonna give a hot take here. I really enjoyed the completed Shar Asnabald negative change arc. So he starts bullying, planning his revenge, backstabbing, being a bastard. And then you get to Zeta Gundam, and he's like, you know what? I'm gonna try and do this the right way. I'm gonna put on new sunglasses, I'm gonna try and give speeches at the UN, I'm gonna literally try and convince people to save the Earth. Goes through Zeta Gundam, he's like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm just gonna kill the planet. And the idea that his conclusion was like, you know what, fuck it, I'm just gonna kill the planet. I'm literally gonna buy this with gold, literally war crime Nazi gold to buy something that they sold me willingly to blow up the planet with. Like I'm just done. Dude was done. He literally sends a psychic message saying I'm doing something evil to his rival.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:10

Uh so a bad thing in the change arc. Um I think I have an example actually. Uh that immediately comes to mind, Bowser and Mario Galaxy. Because they, like I said, they they set it up that Mario was going to learn that no one is irredeemable until Bowser is just irredeemable. And like, why was in the context of the series, why did they even bother trying to redeem him if he wasn't going to like impact the plot at all? Like it's just in the in the context of the show, it's just like, no, that's terrible.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:52

So they didn't like it at all. What's funny for a failed negative change arc for me is that's a great example. Another approach where they can screw it up is when they try and give a character a negative change arc that's actually right, but the story's propaganda disagrees with you. Oh? So, like, let's take Magneto. Magneto's a villain. Who's objectively correct? So, like, watch him descend to madness and be an awful person, you're like, actually, though.

unknown 1:49:20

Like.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:21

So, whenever you like make a character be like, watch them become the villain, you're like, no, no, no, they're right, though. Like. The writer will be like, this villain. Like, let's take Omni Man. So, like, look, Omniman's a terrible person, we're gonna give him a rejection arc, and people are like, nah, he's sexy, it's fine. So it's definitely there's times where the writer's like, no, no, this is a bad person being bad, and you're like, I'm not entirely sure. I just think like Doctor Doom does that all the time, where they're like, you know though, like, he did solve the crime rate problem. Like, a lot of Propaganda shows and things will do that too. We'll be like, no, no, this villain that you're setting up as the villain means for him to be the villain, the U.S. Police Department has to be the good guy. So I doubt no, though.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:12

Or like um Supergirl. Uh there's the season with the um where the Supergirl has a fight and it blows up someone's house. Uh, and then the insurance company won't cover it because uh it was superhero damage, not like an act of god or whatever. And so his life is completely ruined by these super superheroes and their with their reckless abandonment and lack of regulation. And it's like, well, he's kinda right. Like, insurance companies and stuff using disadvantage to take to destroy people's lives, like these heroes are causing a lot of damage with no repercussions.

Lightning Round On Character Arcs

SPEAKER_02 1:50:50

Uh, I'm gonna say the line that gets her podcast cancelled forever. The negative change arc is the media was trying to convince us against Luigi Mangioni while showing him like close-ups of him being hot insureless. Like, they're like, look at this domestic terrorist, this cannot happen. And I'm like, you just said you're going to wipe a civilization off the face of the earth. Um, I'm sorry, but like the guy he shot killed more people than than Luigi did. Like, what are we talking about here? No, we're we're not taking Big Pharma's side. Fuck off. No, viewers, comedy podcasts don't take what we say seriously. Nor do I think Luigi should be freed because he did commit murder. I'm just saying that I'm not buying that he was a particularly bad person from the narratives they're spinning. They're doing a pretty bad job of their jobs. They're like, we pronounced this man guilty before trial. I'm like, isn't that a mistrial? On the grounds that you went on TV and said he was guilty? Alright. Anyways, what's our next lightning man? Good flat arc versus bad flat arc. A good flat arc versus bad flat arc.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:56

Um well, like you said, a good flat arc is when they actually inspire the people around them to change. So, I mean, Saitama is obviously, I mean, you already mentioned that, but that's definitely a very good flat arc, at least for the first portion where Saitama's actually allowed to be in the show. Um But I think Saitama's actually simultaneously bold. Yeah, that I agree strongly. You know what one of my favorite. He's very sorry, the Saitama very clearly inspires people around him to change, uh, but then uh he just kind of like stopped actually having any impact on the show because the people have already started changing, um and the other characters around them actually kind of stopped really being dynamic as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:48

Yeah, it just didn't have that much series in it. Yeah. And I'll say Superman, when done correctly, is supposed to be a flat arc character. But writers don't want to do that. So, like, the most recent Superman movie where he's like, sometimes the most punk thing you could be is a good person. That was actually a flat arc Superman. Because he's like, no, no, he doesn't need to change. But then like Zack Snyder's like, no, no, no, he needs to like beat up people and be sad and have clothed sex in a bathtub, and I'm like, you guys aren't getting it. The idea of being a symbol for hope is you're a symbol for hope. Right. And Batman's also like they keep trying to flat arc Batman so he learns nothing, and weirdly enough that just turns him into a sociopath. Yeah, that's true. Alright. And then our last second last category is the disillusionment arc, where you start optimistic, become nihilistic, and then become optimistic again at the end.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:47

I don't mean.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:49

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:53

Start optimistic, become nihilistic, become optimistic.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:57

Which is kind of almost every Marvel villain now, because no one's allowed to be evil. Like, uh, it pisses me off so much, and like, DD has this problem. People are like, no, it can't just be an evil monster. We need to give this dragon a full disillusionment arc and have it come back around at the end. I'm like, fuck off.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:13

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:16

Well, I don't necessarily know that it's a good example, but Ray from the Star Wars movies from the third troll. That's a great example. I I don't know if it's a bad example or a good example, but it definitely is an example of how she, you know, starts up Optimistus, goes on her adventure, the second movie she basically does become evil and accidentally almost kills Chewbacca. Uh, and then by the end, uh learns to grapple with the dark emotions that the Dark Shot of the Force uh enhance and and redeems herself to become the hero of the series.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:55

So I'm gonna say the good version of that is when Luke did that exact thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:00

Uh yeah, I guess. Luke Over the course of the three movies.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:07

And then like I said, Bleach felt like it was doing that, but didn't do it. Like didn't. They tried to do it, they didn't really pull it up. And then the final category is the redemption arc. Where good redemption where you start bad and then go good. Which is like I said, every fucking villain now. They're gonna be like, oh yeah, Killmonger better have a redemption arc. I'm like, a dude named Killmonger does not need a redemption arc. That's not he's already cool. Like, stop it.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:49

Uh when you said Killmonger, I thought Kilgrave. I was like, Kilgrave didn't have a redemption arc?

SPEAKER_02 1:55:55

No, Kilgrave sucked and continued to suck. Which is objectively better.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:05

But uh Redemption arc.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:13

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:14

I'm really bad at these lightning rounds. I'm like, geez. You can do it. I believe in you. Well, see, I I get very fixated on the things that I've seen recently, and it's like, hmm, yeah, I haven't really seen that many things that even have redemption arcs. Um like, yeah, I can. I guess the redemption arc doesn't have to be the main character that goes through the redemption. Oh, absolutely not. In fact, it's usually usually not the main character that goes through the redemption arc.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:52

Um I mean, Boromir goes by so fast in the movies. Like it's almost a bad example.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:05

That's true. That's true. Um villain isn't exactly the right word either.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:13

Like antagonist um is is more of a better because it's like the I don't know if you're funny because it's like you could say something like Athronzala and Gundam Seed goes through a redemption arc, but like I don't actually think Zap was wrong. Like, technically he's just a war criminal. Just stole a military weapon, abandoned his squad, abandoned his country, his actions directly resulted in nuclear warheads heading towards his country. But the show, the theme music told me he was a good guy. Oh yeah, absolutely. Dude was just a war criminal, and it's like, well, my best friend I knew from childhood said the guys I'm fighting for are wrong. So you're gonna stand up to Sabiers? No, no, I'm just gonna leave. I'm just gonna take a nuclear power death robot and leave to go hang out with my best friend and my ex-girlfriend. Lelouch had a great redemption arc, though, as he literally sets up his own assassination. Because Lelouch was just a piece of shit at the start of his show. He was just like, no, I'm just actually a terrorist who wants to murder my family because they suck. And he's like, maybe I should probably make the world a better place. I know, the best way to make the world a better place is to just not be in an evil.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:39

Well, okay, so I mean, there are certainly examples of characters that want to, like, atone for their previous actions. Like, do you think that kind of makes the redemption work? It's desire to atone?

SPEAKER_02 1:58:51

The desire to atone has to be mixed with trying to change the part that made them a bastard in the first place. Like, if you just try and make up for something bad you did, you also have to, like, fundamentally understand what it was that was making you bad. Hmm. Because it's like. A bad redemption arc is I murder puppies, but I decide not to murder puppies anymore. Where a better redemption arc is I murder puppies because XYZ reason, and now I've saved the puppies by sacrificing myself to be eaten by dogs. I don't know. So it's like they've undid their crime in the process of learning what the crime was.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:31

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:35

I don't know why, I'm having a really hard time thinking of redemption arcs right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:40

Can't think of any times a bad guy became a good b guy in media. I feel like that happens a fair bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:45

Well, not see, I know it happens a fair f a fair bit, but it's like most of the time it's like, okay, so like Piccolo is a great redemption arc. Yep. And Vegeta's a pretty good redemption arc. Uh, but then a lot of this um Gamcha was not. Hmm. Does the monster within count as a redemption arc? Kinda. Are you gonna say Karama? Well yeah, Karama is a pretty good redemption arc for sure. I'll allow it.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:19

I will absolutely allow that one. And what's a bad redemption arc where we're like, yeah, this person's redeemed, you're like, no. Absolutely not. And the show's like, but they're a good guy now, and you're like, no.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:36

Um I gotta think. Again, oh well Yeah, I gotta think about what shows I've actually watched. That stuck with me long enough to be like Because you see it if it's a bad redemption arc, unless I really, really like the show and got ruined by the redemption arc. Uh which doesn't happen that often. Man, Greed had a great redemption arc. Yeah, Greed Full Metal Alchemist. Amazing redemption arc.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:10

Let's see.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:19

Let's see. Oh, that's the one's most popular enemies.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:22

I probably actually I think the main character of Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer kind of redemption arc. Because he definitely went from I'm a selfish piece of crap to I need to beat up all of my friends to then beat up my love interest because my love interest is wrong. And I had to change my views midway through. Is it me? Am I a bad redemption arc because I haven't learned or groaned as a person at all?

SPEAKER_03 2:02:00

I'm I wouldn't I wouldn't say you're a bad redemption arc. You're not a villain. Or an antagonist even. At least not to me, anyways. You are an antagonist to some people, though.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:09

Oh, absolutely. I'm a menace. I just go into class and be like, hey, did you guys do the readings now? Oh man. Um Sasuke Chiha's pretty terrible, honestly.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:22

Um the uh the characters in um Dr. Stone, like like the first first antagonist, the I don't even remember his name, but he be kind of becomes like a one of their like strong muscle guys for the for the crew. Uh but I I don't think he really redeemed himself.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:44

No, he's just like, well, you guys have guns now, so I guess I have to be a good Oh, I know the one that pissed me off the most, Orochimaru running a childcare home. They just gave Orochimaru a kabu to an orphanage.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:01

But hey, who what is the name of that character for Dr. Stone? Because well, I guess I don't remember any of the characters.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:08

But yeah, like Punchy McFace is just like, well, I guess I just have to be a good guy now because I lost. Like, what?

SPEAKER_03 2:03:15

Because the main character is incredibly smart, and then he hires the guy who just has incredible germs to get stuff done. Or revives the guy that has incredible germs to get stuff done because of the friends. And then they revive the guy that's really strong and good at fighting, and he's like, I'm gonna be a villain because I think that strength is the only thing that matters, and strength is better than technology, and which is a really stupid take because toilet paper. And and then, uh yeah, they technology gets good enough, he's like, okay, I guess my strength didn't mean anything, so I'm a good guy now.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:50

Oh, and Kylo Ren. Oh yeah, Kylo Ren. They just redeem him out of nowhere. Yeah. He kissed the girl and was good again. And then they redeemed Bucky Barnes off-screen.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:13

Yeah, yeah, I guess they kinda did do that. That's a pretty bad redemption arc because it didn't happen on screen.

What Will Not Matter In Ten Years

SPEAKER_02 2:04:18

Also, every Spider-Man villain just got to be a good guy at the end. Really? Kinda! At the end of No Way Home, they're like, oh, let's redeem every one of them. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like Norman Osburn wasn't ru running Big Pharma and war crimes before he became Green Myopolid. That one breaks me. They're like, you saved me from my goblin madness. The thing that gave you goblin mass was you're a greedy prick. You didn't just get goblin madness. You're like, you know what's a good idea? Captain America's super soldiers and murder gliders to sell to terrorists in Iran. Like, no. None of that. Alright, so for a random question of the day. Okay, okay. What's something that feels important now, but probably won't matter in ten years?

SPEAKER_03 2:05:08

Something that feels important now, but probably won't matter in ten years.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:17

Ah, I know one for me. Dunking on Pokemon champions. Just hating on a video any g video game I hate on in general will simply not matter in ten years. Also, Slay the Spire 2 won't matter in 10 years, it's unfortunate. I like Slay the Spire. Oh, did you know Slay the Spire 2 came out and has co-op? No, I did not. It's awesome. But please continue. Uh oh, here's another one. JD Vance.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:04

Well, yeah, there's a pretty good chance that a lot of things will won't matter in ten years.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:09

Well, what's funny is like all these Trump cabinet menu uh members, because like the media and things, are making it sound like Pam Bondy is super important. In ten years no one's gonna remember her name. Because I can't remember who the Attorney General was during the Bush administration. Or the Obama administration. Those aren't information I'm gonna keep. Like, let's take Pierre Polia, for example. I'm not gonna remember who was ahead of the Conservative Party when they weren't in power.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:46

What seems super important right now probably won't matter in ten years.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:51

Oh, trans people in sports. It's not important now, but it feels important now. And then people are gonna remember that Red counts for such a small percentage of the population. They'll just be like, remember sports before we had to live in dome cities because we never fuck global warming.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:11

Too busy worried about trans people in sports.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:14

Too busy worried about trans people in sports. Just let them play the sports! Especially when it's like, oh man, the genetic advantage you get for being in high school football. I'm like, they get people get her early puberty. Like, it's like, oh, in middle school, imagine if a woman competed in a man's sport. I'm like, what if someone just gets a gross spurt and six feet tall? Like, what are we talking the people aren't even grown yet? What are we talking about? Respect the purity of co-ed soccer. Fuck off. Why don't we make sure we give them sports equipment first? Like we can't even play sports, because we got funding. Magic the gathering.

SPEAKER_03 2:08:04

Well, that doesn't even feel that important right now. They are, they are doing Don't say you're wedding.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:17

That's a bad choice. You taught people how to make videos of service. Because that feels super important and will matter to you in ten years.

SPEAKER_03 2:08:26

It it will, it will. I was gonna try and do something about like online shopping and and malls closing.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:32

Oh yeah. Malls won't matter in ten years. Just they'll still be they'll either be there or they won't.

SPEAKER_03 2:08:41

And But it it does feel like uh brick and mortar stores closing is is like, you know, becoming a an important issue now. But in ten years it's like, yeah.

Stop Overcomplicating Food Orders

SPEAKER_02 2:08:51

I'm hoping the straight up her moose won't matter in ten years. Right. Yeah. And then we have one other question. Okay, okay. What's something that people overcomplicate that should be simple?

SPEAKER_03 2:09:09

What's something that people overcomplicate that should be simple?

SPEAKER_02 2:09:12

I mean, I have a really petty answer right now. Well, I mean, we get fucking assignments on time. People will be like, oh, I need a time extension because it's just- No! Just do it! It's not that hard. You just write the paper and hand it in. Fuck.

SPEAKER_03 2:09:32

Uh I I'm also gonna be petty, um, and that is uh pizza orders. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:42

100% agree. Food orders, I agree. I'm changing my vote. I fundamentally orders in general. I'm gonna say Richard and Carl presents Deep Space and Dragons as normally a comedy, but what we're about to say is 100% factual, accurate information. Do not overcomplicate food orders. Pick something on the menu, eat it. And then if you don't like what's on the menu, order somewhere else. Like, oh, my biggest p like, I have this is another like microcosm of that. So I'll say to like the office, hey, I'm swinging by Tim's. Anyone want anything? But now I say, I'm swinging by Tim's, anyone want anything, you get three words. Because some fucker will be like, oh, I want a churo ice cap with less two shots of espresso and less sweetener. I'll be like, fuck off. You get one set, like that's too many words. Or it'll be like, oh, I want three Splenda and one sugar because I want to shut up. Your options are black with cream or with cream and sugar. And your options for drink are coffee. Or if this one person in my class was like, uh, I placed a mobile order at Tim's, can you go pick it up for me? I'm like, never. What? Why would I do that? No. Go get your own order. Really? Not related to the issue, just bug me. The idea that you would turn to someone be like, well, since you're getting a coffee, can you pick up my mobile armor? No! Absolutely not. You can come with me. I would sooner buy someone a coffee than go delivery boy it for them. I don't know. It just felt like stupid. Angered me. Yeah, food orders is definitely my answer. If it was up to me, Tim Hortons would only have three items left on the menu when I was done with it. And people being able to type whatever bullshit they want in the little text boxes and apps is not helping.

SPEAKER_03 2:11:35

No, it is not. Uh, can I get a guy the other day? Uh at work. They ordered an extra large pizza. And they wanted it cut into five. Why? No! You told them no, right? And told them to go to hell. Uh well, the person who took the order, I was like, hey, what is this? We can't do it. Because not that we can't like you could do it. Tedious and difficult. We're just not going to do it. We're not gonna give that person the illusion that that is something we could do on a regular basis. Because we don't. You cut things in half and then half and in half again. You can't get an odd number of slices. That is so dumb.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:17

I love how this made into our recording that someone ordered a pizza cut into five. It's just not okay behavior. No, it's not. I want you to know the my roommate in the background is just kind of miming. Like, how would you even do that?

SPEAKER_03 2:12:34

You have to start from the center, uh, and then cut each of your forces individually.

Never Order Pizza Cut Into Five

SPEAKER_02 2:12:40

Do you have a protractor to help with the angles? Because this is just a recipe for failure. No, those pieces are not going to be even. I don't even know if they literally can be. Like, 360 doesn't really divide by five very nicely. Like, how many places of pie can you calculate up the top of your head to cut these pieces like? Oh. Oh. So thank you everyone for tuning in. And thank you all for tuning into Deep Space and Dragons. The only thing you need to take away from today is to not order Pizza Cut into Five. Just don't. We don't need you on this. Like, unsubscribe. If you're gonna order it that way. We don't need your business. If you're ordering Pizza Cut into Five, don't buy my book. Don't download my itch.io. Don't watch our Daggerheart podcast. We don't need you.

SPEAKER_03 2:13:35

Well, you know, they're probably gonna order your book in five pages. So the five giant pages.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:43

No, they're one of those people who cut the book in half for easier transportation horizontally. Uh and they'll be like, hey, can I have this translate to uh pig Latin for me? I read that better. Like, people just need to stop.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:04

Thanks for listening and supporting us.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:06

You know, unless you take care of yourself. Unless you do this bullshit, then don't take care of yourself. We don't love you. Don't support us. Oh no. Bye. Bye. Oh, shouldn't it be the funniest thing in the world? But that's so bad. Oh no. I need that in five even slices. How about we cut it into twelve and then you give each pr No! Oh okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:38

Wait, six?

SPEAKER_02 2:14:39

We could do six? Three each? No.