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Compass PD Podcast with Dr. Carrie Hepburn
Research says the single most influential way to impact instruction is by increasing the knowledge of the educators who teach it. Join Dr. Carrie Hepburn as she talks with fellow educators on how we impact student achievement through professional development.
Compass PD Podcast with Dr. Carrie Hepburn
Compass PD Podcast Episode 25: The Power of Synergy: Tales from the Field
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Join members of the Compass PD team as we engage in a collaborative discussion. Listen in to equip yourself with techniques to challenge and evolve thinking during meetings and professional learning. This conversation is a treasure trove of practical tips and strategies for collaboration. Tune in to transform your meeting experiences and enhance your professional learning journey.
Improving Collaboration in Meetings
Speaker 1Welcome , welcome , welcome , Dr Keri Hepburn here from Compass PD . Today our podcast is a break from a traditional podcast because it's the Tuesday after Labor Day . For our listeners outside of the United States , Labor Day is an annual celebration of the social and economic achievements of American workers . The holiday is rooted in the late 19th century , when labor activists push for a federal holiday to recognize the many contributions workers have made to America's strength , prosperity and well-being .
Speaker 1Our team fully embraced taking a moment to celebrate an extended weekend all of the hard work we've done in schools over the past year and in that spirit , we recorded a sit-down collaboration session we had previous to the weekend . What we wanted to do in this collaboration session is break down some of the things that we do in our meetings that could be useful for you in your work when you work with collaborative teams either , when it comes to curriculum , instruction , assessment , PLCs all of that Full disclosure . We covered a ton of topic ride to kind of narrow it down to one and hopefully you're able to see that I want you to listen in with a lens of thinking how to apply some of the techniques that we use in your meetings . We're nowhere near perfect , but it's helpful to hear ways that you can improve the overall experience and the outcomes of your meetings . To give you some background knowledge , start to listen in .
Speaker 1Stephanie , Natalie and I met the previous week to begin creating a progression of learning for teachers on a topic that we would be delivering PD on throughout the school year . We asked Bridget to come in and sit with us with the lens of not being part of this process and with the lens of being an administrator to give us feedback so that we could improve this learning progression for the district that we serve . So as you just jump in and out of conversations , I want you to know that this is where Bridget's stepping in . Let's get started on this progression .
Speaker 2I thought maybe Natalie will do us quickly give Bridget a breakdown . Basically , Bridget , what we did you have a class review was we sat down and we talked about all of these books that we had read the new classroom instruction that works , new classroom instruction that works , Learning the sticks , the art and science of teaching and we talked about these and then determined what does PG look like in this district . So , because the new classroom instruction that works has some different recommendations than the old classroom instruction that works , and then we were reading the learning that sticks and then the new art and science of teaching we just wanted to come up with . This is going to be at least a three-year plan with the district . So what do we want to say is for sure going to be taught to the teachers and counselors .
Speaker 2This would be interesting seeing her perspective because Stephanie never got really to hers , did she that third one on the list ? So we might need to rename that one . But I was working on the top one and then here's on that middle one and I was really struggling like so you'll notice that my books a little bit different than Carrie's . I was really struggling with that fact of like what does it look like in a classroom ? So if I was a teacher , like what if I walked in , what would I see ? Or what would I want it to , what does this look like ?
Speaker 2And so I put on mine like what does mine look like , mine's this person Like where it says what does my look like ? And so I kind of get bullets of it could look this way , but it's not , and this is also probably my ELA side . And we looking at a scoring rubric on an essay that it's like you can still be in this category , but you're in it from different reasons . Like you're in this category for this reason , you're in this category , but you know that's kind of where that category is . I'm not saying I'm set on it having it look this way , but that's where my brain was going was like what does this look like ? And then how do we either verbalize it in words or do we keep it with the bullets of ? These are possible things that could look like . And then not only that , but is it an actual progression ? Right ? Does it look like ? Yes , I can see where this is building on each other .
Speaker 1OK , we're just a couple of minutes in and I want you to think . As you listen in , you can see that Natalie and I were trying to set the stage for Bridget . We were giving her the background knowledge on what we had created so far and the why and the how . As I reflect on this process , there are some things that we could have done better . One , we could have given Bridget the background information prior to our collaborative time so she could be in that mindset , be asking clarifying , clarifying questions and have the space to truly think deeply about this work . And then , two , we could have given Bridget the learning progression ahead of time so she could study it and have time to wrap her brain around it .
Speaker 1Now , bridget is a professional and she's used to delivering feedback on the spot . She's worked with hundreds of teachers and through multiple district initiatives , so it's not new to her . But our team is always looking at ways to improve and moving forward . We would like to ensure that the time that we get together , because it's so precious , is even better . So those are two things that I would do differently .
Speaker 2Even that three , four category on both of us . We're like what's the difference between the three and the one ?
Speaker 2So just looking at it from the lens when I think back , like teacher evaluations and stuff . So we started at that number three , and that number three is where we want everybody to get to . And then four is that bump above , and that two is just a little below and not quite there . That one is , you know , significantly . And so when we think about it that way , we think about language , that in the three you're going to see like the teacher doing all these things . In the four you're going to see the students taking ownership of it and doing more themselves . In the two , maybe in the three the teacher is facilitating . In the two the teacher's not facilitating , they're just doing it , because we always see that that four needs to have the students taking ownership . And so then I can plan back from there .
Speaker 2Or I start with the three and say , here's what good instruction would look like . A good instruction would be a teacher facilitating this , but better instruction would be when the students then can take it and personalize and make their own opinion . And it's like to me the one is the hardest Because you just want to say no evidence , and it's like okay , then , well , what does that ? I am putting goals in , so I'm too , and it's like no , your goals suck . You're not a too . They're not the right type of goals , or arbitrary goals or something that no evidence is like . You're not even on the chart yet . When you get to the chart , let's have a conversation .
Speaker 2So this is , it's like that no evidence , or it's very likely , but I don't know . That's kind of where my question is but let's think of that when I think of politicians and sales . That's where , like , the Marzano has a zero . And then the one is like , maybe at least what we're seeing , even if it sucks , like what do we see ?
Speaker 2And then so it's like okay , I'm seeing this , not that I'm married to it , I'm just like thinking , okay , what are we ? There's still one level of like it's , but I think that one yeah , that one has to be something that you're still seeing . It should be more like academic goals or not , because you're saying there's some personal goals or behavior based goals . I like that , that question that you have , but are we defining goals , that they are academic in the glossary or not ? I don't . I don't remember if that was on there or not .
Speaker 2But not that we have . I know we had on the chart , based on what we've read , were like master goals . We talked about master goals and effort goals and performance goals and performance goals . So , the other thing , I was yes , but not necessarily . Now . None of this is all good for us to think through . And then are you ?
Speaker 2opposed to the zeroes . That's a gathering . No , I just was thinking . I have a thing about thinking Negative yeah , on here for people and it's like you're at least doing some , like you're doing some . So the other thing you could include is a not observed , and so not observed isn't negative , but it's , there's no other . So I think we need to give a little bit of an explanation . We don't want to use this as an as an evaluation tool . Right , we want this to be the teachers own like . If a teacher will look at this , they will say if I were to read this descriptor , where do I think my classroom is ? Right now I'm going to one . What are my steps to get to or to ?
Speaker 1What are my steps to get to a three ?
Speaker 2And it being used more as an informative feedback of you're not being scored on this , like this is not a teacher evaluation . This is . We know that this is best practice , but we want you to create the environment . How do we get there ? So maybe , like in your one , you need to say something like observable goals , not , you know , something like there are no , there are no observable goals or observable goals not posted . Are they just not doing anything ? That's an observable goal . The other thing , I think . I think that if in the first bullet on your number one , we're talking about personal goals , then the second full I'm the first bullet number two we should be talking about the same topic In the next column . Same topic , so we're , so they're able to see the progression and so just making sure we're doing that . Bullet two under a two is about performance goal , but in one we don't have anything about a performance goal , and two or in three , we don't you know you just get .
Speaker 2You have to be careful about using that same language . So performance goals are performance goals , master goals and effort goals . There are definitions that go with those , like a performance goal is , I want to say , and so we want kids to move beyond that and go to more master , I want to master this skill , or I know that I need to put in this amount of time in order to master that skill . So that's where effort and mastery come in place . So ultimately , it would be like the progression would be you're just setting personal goals , you're setting performance based goals , you're setting master goals .
Speaker 2I don't know if it's spelled out that way , but that's that , to me , is how that progression goes . And the bullets are not lined up . You're absolutely one of them , correct ? I guess what I'm saying is you wouldn't see the same language in each bullet , because that's the growth . The growth is going from performance to what is , to this end , the ultimate goal being mastery and effort goals the stretch and jump .
Speaker 1Let's pause right there for a moment . A couple of things that happened in this stretch of the conversation . I want to explicitly mention One . You will notice that we kept returning to the reliable resources that we used . Our team read five books from different researchers and experts in the topic that we are delivering professional learning on .
Communication and Problem Solving in Education
Speaker 1Predictable problem is that you'll start talking about something and try to find ways to make it easier for those that you're serving , whether it's educators or students . However , our experience has shown us that that method waters down the learning and leads to confusion and , ultimately , difficult habits that can be hard to overcome . We see this not only in professional learning , but instruction as well . Another thing that you're going to notice is that questions were used to clarify understanding . Questioning is a great way to help everyone at the table come to the same level of understanding . If you have ideas popping in your head , think about ways to turn them into questions .
Speaker 1I ask people to clarify the meaning of something for me all the time , or ask them to give me an example . It's really helpful and , if asked appropriately , it can feel less negative or confrontational . And then , thirdly , we revisit again and again questionable terms for those that we serve and we ensure that we gather reliable definitions and create a glossary of terms and teach into those terms . When we're delivering professional learning , it's really important for everyone at the table to have the same understanding about language . Language can be really tricky , and so taking the time to define terms it might feel Like you're lowering expectations , but a lot of times people don't understand what a term means but they're too embarrassed to ask . Or we've heard from all of these different people or resources that may or may not be reliable the definition of terms and that really can lead to misunderstanding . So a really simple , easy way to ensure that everyone has the same level of understanding is just to find the terms .
Speaker 2See part of me thinks that the top part that you have like , that first paragraph or first sentence , is a sentence . It's not a paragraph . The descriptors the descriptors yeah , like what this might look like to me are all things that we would talk about when we're teaching , how it changes , and it's like specifically saying and I know trying to give them all of these things but like , oh , when goals are established in content , unfortunately , and specifically , it could be mastering and or effort based it might look like this , and then those are like all different ways that I can teach somebody Like .
Speaker 2I would say this it could be evidence of talking through it Right and I think that's a way that we process , like is getting all the stuff that that could go really nicely into the teaching and like that . Ultimately , what you're saying is take those bullets underneath it , try to figure out how to synthesize it as part of that sentence above and only have that sentence above .
Speaker 1I want to pause right here because this is something that Natalie does really well . If you're watching the video on YouTube , you're going to notice that she's been taking notes on post-its . As she listens to Bridget and I talk about her section of the learning progression , she stops us right in this moment to summarize or restate her understanding of what Bridget and I were saying . This is important because she ensured we were all on the same page and this would guide us in the next part of our conversation . Taking moments to summarize the conversation is critical in team meetings . This particular pause wasn't intentionally designed , but I've been in meetings where it is intentionally designed and part of the meeting process . Think about how you can intentionally design and add these pauses in your meetings to ensure that we all have the same level of understanding .
Speaker 2I mean that's just neat , and then like it doesn't mean that you negate all of that . It's like , hey , when you go to teach this , these are your teaching points , but , in summation , this is a synthesis effect . So if you want somebody to take this , a teacher to take this , and you want to say I'd like for us to all look at column three , what do you notice is the difference between a two , a three and a four .
Speaker 2So we're focusing on three is that's where we want to get to right now for all students , and so , but some students , we're going to get to the four and we know that that's really where we ultimately want to be .
Speaker 2But , like , we're okay if we're at a three right now because we're starting something new , right , and so you want that language to be congruent enough that they can pick out what's the difference . And it's not different , it's not the different language , it's the different skills or it's the different level of involvement , or it's like we can tell right here that the first bullet , teachers or students might be doing that goal setting with cement foot , but when we look at the four , the students are using evidence and they're doing the goal setting , and so , like I can tell very easily right there between those two what the difference is , and so you just want to make sure you do that across your bullets . If you're really going to ask people what's the difference . We're hoping we're working on creating a curriculum that this is the evidence part , like this is how we assess .
Speaker 2Not that we're assessing others , but this is how we assess ourselves . And then , what are all the teaching things that we need to do when ?
Speaker 2we're delivering a PD in this district , because we'll be presenting on these three topics , on the new learning that we've done and , you know , like the synthesizing of all of these resources , and so it's like these are going to be the big buckets that we're teaching them here . This is what that looks like Like teachers can assess , see where they're at so that we can help them like , reflect and all that , but like where are all the things that we need to teach ?
Speaker 1Because it tells us our entry point .
Speaker 2And we're dealing so this isn't for teachers , this is for you Both , both . So think about it like this when you teach kids how to do the Venn diagram right , it used to be we brainstorm on a list of all the characters in this book . We brainstorm on a list of all , and they have nothing to do with each other . So we're not really comparing , we're just making lists , and so we want to just make sure that we're talking about the same things , and so it's so we can actually compare and have the same thoughts , the same . I keep using the word language , but you're right , you're not . You're not going to necessarily use the exact same language .
Speaker 2But , you have to stick on that same train of thought so that when they're when they're going through , they can actually compare contrast .
Speaker 1I want to pause right here to highlight what Bridget did in this exact moment of our collaboration , as she was delivering feedback about our learning progression . She gave examples that were easy for us to understand her train of thought . This is important because concrete examples and stories are great techniques to explain a more abstract idea . It can be the scaffold that supports the next level of learning .
Speaker 2Again , one of our persons agreed that I wear and having a hard time , especially with goal setting , because what we did the other day is we kind of like . We're like . What does this look ?
Speaker 1like in a classroom , like whenever goals are big . What types of goals are we ?
Speaker 2seeing that would fall into this one category . If I say the student's setting goals , well , if the student is setting goals in your classroom , yay , but if they're arbitrary goals , that's where I want that nuance . I want to make sure that it's like you could say well , my students are setting all the goals to arm before and I'm like no , but they're not very difficult , like they're not the right type of goals . So it can't be one piece of the puzzle , it has to be the whole pit in the middle . It could be something as simple as at the floor , all students are setting their own goals or using evidence to set their own goals , and that , at three , most students set , or all students setting goals with the help of teacher or something .
Speaker 2One , it's some student setting goals , or few students setting goals or something . But two , it's a majority of students setting goals , or more than half , or you just have to . I just I don't know . I feel like there's just this whole path that has to be made that they can see step progression . Can you look at your collaboration and see ?
Speaker 1I'm sorry am I right ?
Speaker 2No , Somebody's breaking it .
Speaker 1I really don't need to , no no , no , no , this is getting a figure , all right , I know , I know .
Speaker 2We , you should see us . Sometimes we're like aggravated each other , you're not hearing me , but then we eventually get in there , okay yeah .
Speaker 1No , so word , this is good you have to do this to us .
Speaker 1I want to pause right here and highlight that this team has a high level of trust and during this time , we have the desire to make the overall product beneficial for those we serve . I have been in meetings where I am receiving feedback on something I have poured my heart and soul into and I think I'm presenting it and I'm not expecting to receive feedback . The way that goes is much different than what you just heard and , if you're viewing it , what you just saw . So I want to give you a couple of tips regarding receiving feedback . First of all , gather feedback early and often in the process , after you've given everything you have to develop a system , a product , a professional learning , after you've given everything . To that , waiting to the end to get that feedback can really result in hurt feelings and it's difficult to be on the receiving end .
Speaker 1So , two , something that I've done in these situations and I do all the time is I just , I just like channel Brené Brown and her words to explain the thinking that's happening in my head , so that I can help myself diffuse what's happening to me physiologically and help everyone in the room , help me navigate the situation . So , while I say , the story I'm telling myself in my head is this like . This is horrible , you don't like it , you're finding no value in this . You know , whatever those words , the story I'm telling myself in my head . It's really helpful to those people so that when they're , they're delivering the feedback , it gives them the understanding of how they need to formulate the words , their message that they're giving me .
Speaker 1And then another thing is to breathe Slow breaths , thinking through what your goal is regarding the product , the professional learning , the process can be really helpful , and I'll just say out loud I'm going to need some processing time to think through the feedback that you've given me and I'll get back with you . All of these things can be beneficial . Help you reduce the stress that your body is feeling in the moment . Allow you , maybe , to receive the feedback and step back . Give you the space that you need and deserve to come back to them with new information .
Speaker 2So everything else you kind of took you started with students are , or what the students are doing . And so is this anywhere ?
Speaker 1in the world .
Speaker 2Kind of like what you were thinking . I don't know . Yes , so it's a nice natural progression that you can see . I think it's hard when we go from none to some , to most tall . I don't want this room , or at least for goal setting . It's to me it's not about the number , it's not about the quantity , it's about the quality of the goals . Like , what types of goals are you setting in your classroom ? Because there is , and that's what's so nuanced about the goal . So I don't know if you you were part of this original conversation the creating the classroom environment in the first classroom instruction that works , that student goal setting used to be objectives and so it was really teacher-driven .
Speaker 2It is the teacher setting objectives . They really shifted that and they said are the kids setting the goals ? But those goals are based on the objectives , and so your business layer that the teacher is a part of it and that they are very academic and objective base .
Speaker 2So they're not just these vague , arbitrary goals . They are very specific to that content and in some respects we would want and the teacher's going to have some input . So like even whenever I talk about goal setting in my podcast , it's like you should still have a bucket , like you should still have a cure of five , that we're going to be working on this year . Now you get to pick one .
Speaker 2So now the kid can pick one from the list that the teacher provided , and so there's a lot of under the surface , stuff that has to happen in order for this to happen , and that's why it was so hard to realize Like I was really struggling with those goals , because it's like give you a little bit of context around that particular goal . Do we ? Are we putting you on the spot ? No , it's fine , you know . I know what's on the board . I think I'm going to be well enough to know I can say anything . Yeah , you want them to find the treasure without having to do the scavenger out too much .
Speaker 1I want to stop you right here , because these words from Dr Neideringhouse were so powerful , I've written them down in big , bold letters . You want them to find the treasure without having to do the scavenger hunt too much . This was so important in our work of creating a learning progression for teachers , but I find it incredibly relatable in the work that we do with students when it comes to creating progressions of learning .
Podcast Focuses on Impacting Students
Speaker 1I want to end this podcast on those wise words from Bridget and hope that you found the podcast interesting and helpful . I want to remind you of the purpose of this podcast . It was to listen in with a lens of thinking how to apply some of the techniques that our team uses to push one another's thinking in meetings and collaborative times and in development of professional learning . We , again , are nowhere near perfect . It is always helpful to hear ways that we can improve our overall experience and the outcomes of our time together .
Speaker 1I hope you had a wonderful Labor Day and to have a great week . See you soon . Did you know that at CompassFeedy we set big , audacious goals , much like you do in your classrooms , your schools and in your district ? We've set a goal of impacting the learning of one million students and that's a big goal . Just so you know , it's a really big goal for us . But what we're going to do is we're going to be working with school districts and schools in person and then we offer our podcast as additional learning and supports and then , if you check out our website , you'll notice that we have virtual learning options with our on demand and through those different modes , we are going to be heading our target , our goal , big goal of impacting one million students .