What if you could transform your coaching conversations and make them more effective and impactful? Today, we bring you an enlightening chat with Dr. Stephanie Brenner, who takes us through the vital aspects of coaching and the art of conducting difficult conversations. Dr. Brenner expounds on the significance of being clear with expectations and the vital role of a gentle enforcer. We also revisit the nuggets of wisdom from past episodes 16 and 20, highlighting how coaches can set the stage for success at the outset of the year.
We pick the brains of David Roth, author of Quiet Leadership, and Michael Bungay Stanier, author of The Coaching Habit, to guide us in structuring challenging dialogues. Discover how to execute the conversation structure of research, decide, and teach to avoid getting entangled in the middle of challenging discourses. Evidence-based preparedness is key, using student work as a tool to steer the conversation. Don't miss out on this enriching conversation!
What if you could transform your coaching conversations and make them more effective and impactful? Today, we bring you an enlightening chat with Dr. Stephanie Brenner, who takes us through the vital aspects of coaching and the art of conducting difficult conversations. Dr. Brenner expounds on the significance of being clear with expectations and the vital role of a gentle enforcer. We also revisit the nuggets of wisdom from past episodes 16 and 20, highlighting how coaches can set the stage for success at the outset of the year.
We pick the brains of David Roth, author of Quiet Leadership, and Michael Bungay Stanier, author of The Coaching Habit, to guide us in structuring challenging dialogues. Discover how to execute the conversation structure of research, decide, and teach to avoid getting entangled in the middle of challenging discourses. Evidence-based preparedness is key, using student work as a tool to steer the conversation. Don't miss out on this enriching conversation!
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Compass PD podcast. I am Keri Hepburn, the founder of Compass PD, and today we are joined by my good friend and colleague, dr Stephanie Brenner. Hi, stephanie.
Speaker 2:Hi, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm good. I'm good, how are you?
Speaker 2:I'm well Excited to be here today.
Speaker 1:I'm glad to have you today. Do you have anything fun like happening in your life right now?
Speaker 2:I do this year. My oldest son, kyle, is a senior and you know we're doing all of the crazy senior things, but this weekend we are going to be taking his senior pictures. Oh, I know it's an exciting thing to think about, but it also is bittersweet.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like there's so many fun things and you can see them getting ready for their next phase of life and they're really ready this year for that next phase. You feel like everything's the last, the last, this the last, that there's like all these emotions, that kind of happen their senior year of high school and college.
Speaker 2:We're definitely in that it's the last and so it's a bittersweet time, but I do have, for my husband and I are going to be taking a trip to Savannah Georgia soon, and I spent a little bit of time here recently learning about Savannah Georgia. I didn't know. It's got such huge history behind it and there are so many things that make the city unique, so it's been kind of cool to plan that trip after knowing some of the history that lies within Savannah.
Speaker 1:We've never been to Savannah, but I can't wait for you to go and give me some tips.
Speaker 1:I'm happy that you're joining us today and that you're going to be sharing information with coaches our literacy, our instructional, our math coaches and what they can think about the beginning of the school year.
Speaker 1:Kind of like we've got our first month under our belt with some of the things that we want to talk to them about. It's going to set them up for success. So last time you were here, you talked about you have all this data and you gave them so much information about the different, the purpose of the different assessments that we're being given, the purpose of how they can utilize that data, and that was really helpful and that can be found in episode 20 and then in episode 16. You were setting them up for success at the beginning of the school year. So for those of you that are just joining right now, you can go back and catch up if you're interested, or just listen today and use the information from today on. So here we are first month of school under our belts. Coaches are preparing for October. What are some things that they need to have on their radars as a coach right now?
Speaker 2:The thing that comes to mind most when I think of October are difficult conversations. You know, with that data we've got all the things really starting to happen and we've been watching. Now we need to in observing. Now we need to use that observation and that data and make sure our plans that we had identified are being implemented. And having conversations about things that aren't going as planned start to happen around this time of year, and when I think of difficult conversations, in my mind that is any conversation that gives you butterflies in your stomach as you're preparing to have the conversation, or if you're like I know I have to have this conversation and your belly just kind of like I'm a little scared about having this conversation.
Speaker 2:I feel like that is a difficult conversation and, as an instructional coach, around this time of year you could be having conversations about curriculum implementation or their use of instructional strategies, student data, and also, as an instructional coach, you might need to start having conversations with your administrator. By all means, conversations with your administrator about how your goals are going, how your work with teachers is going, can cause a lot of butterflies, yeah, so I feel like that's the thing to be ready for, or preparing for, conversations that you might need to have, any type of conversation that gives you those butterflies. I feel like there are important things to keep in mind as a foundation for that conversation. One is to remember that being clear is being kind and totally stealing Bernay Brown's words there. She's just like.
Speaker 2:I think that that just resonates with a lot of people. It is hard to say something that might not go well or people might initially push back on quickly. So as a person, it's just challenging to initiate that conversation. But unless we do that, they don't know there's a problem. So they keep doing what they're doing and that what they're doing is working or that it's OK.
Speaker 2:Until we are really clear with our words and willing to be honest with them, then we're doing them a disservice and they're not going to make any changes or accept that what they're doing is not meeting our expectations and they can't move forward. So in my mind, that's a foundation of any of the conversations is just being willing to initiate the conversation and be clear with your expectations. It can definitely be challenging and scary. In the long run, you are actually helping them be a better practitioner and you're helping them help their students. I think another thing as a coach that's really important for difficult conversations is something that people might call being a gentle enforcer. It's really predictable that teachers, or a group of teachers, are going to come up with a lot of excuses about why things are the way they are.
Speaker 2:And there are times when what they're saying is incredibly valid and they are definitely right that those are challenges that are barriers. A gentle enforcer can listen empathetically to those concerns and validate those concerns, but is willing to stop that cycle of thinking and shift the conversation so that you're holding them accountable to the expectations, pushing them to get beyond the excuses. Conversations can really get bogged down in all of those excuses and things that they can't control and that can really hijack any of your conversations. So being a gentle enforcer can help them identify what's in their control so that they can do everyone can move forward and make decisions about what is going to come next. So I think that those two things are really important foundations of any conversation being kind and being clear and then that idea of being willing to stop the excuses and help move forward beyond that. So, while having high expectations for them.
Speaker 1:I think that that is really important. As you were talking about like off the time, what I'll see a lot is we don't initiate the conversation because we're afraid and we don't like conflict and I'm like right up there, don't like it at all. So it's not like we're saying, hey, this is fun, because it's really it's not, and usually things are already playing out in people's heads and so really it's about that. We're all on the same team and we want you are an educator, I'm a coach we all want what's best for kids and I think when we can think about how we take a team approach through this, like let's talk about like what is and what's not working, this is kind of what we're seeing or what are you seeing.
Speaker 1:I think you do a really nice job of helping draw that out through your questioning, which I you may be talking about in a little bit, but one of the things I think about is initiating the conversation is most of the time not happening and then the only feedback that somebody gets is evaluative and negative. So this is a much healthier approach and for somebody who has been in a situation where it's very evaluative or been negative or they've been yelled at or shamed in front of people. Any of that. You have to be really thoughtful and intentional as a coach because of that relationship piece of making sure they feel safe and protected walking into these conversations.
Speaker 2:So I definitely agree with what you're saying, that it doesn't often happen. As a coach, what I see is when we're not willing to initiate the conversation as leaders, we get frustrated that people aren't doing what we're expecting and we get frustrated that there isn't change occurring, but we haven't been willing enough to let people know that they're not meeting our expectations. So we get in this cycle of I'm avoiding and then I get angry that things aren't happening, but I still avoid and people keep doing what they're doing. And as a leader, if people aren't doing what I'm expecting, I have to step back and reflect on do they have a really clear picture of what I'm expecting? And if I have the conversations with the people who aren't doing that. If not, then it's not the teacher's fault. So as a coach, I'm putting myself in that leadership position. I have to be willing to have the conversation because if they're not doing it, it's a reflection of me being willing to engage in a difficult conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, we see too many times and this is the negative this has caused the negativity about coaching or about data, where data is weaponized against somebody or a team, and really that could have been taking care of way earlier in a much healthier way. That feeling, that emotion, it doesn't just go away. You can heal from it, but it requires a lot of vulnerability on everyone's part. So this is a much healthier approach.
Speaker 2:Having conversations can definitely be a trigger for people. When it's time to have a conversation, before having the conversation, as a coach, I'm always keeping in mind what are the beginning steps of initiating the conversation. I always stop being or sending. I will talk to somebody ahead of time or send them an email ahead of time and say hey, I need to talk to you about Dylan the Brink. Is there a good time this week or in the next couple of days that we could meet to talk, so that you're not springing something on them? And when it's time to start the conversation, they're in a space of being willing to hear, because they know that we're coming together to talk about whatever it is and their mind is not focused on all kinds of other stuff and you're interrupting them and now bombarding them with something. So I always try to keep in mind first, how do I initiate and schedule the meeting so that they're in the space of being ready to listen and participate in the conversation. So beyond that, beyond scheduling the meeting, there are two things I find really important in having these types of conversations. The first thing is having a really clear structure to use as a guide for all of your conversations, especially the ones that give you those butterflies when you think about it.
Speaker 2:The structure of a conversation can really help you stay focused on getting into the now what are we gonna do about it Instead of lingering in the middle of the conversation that ends up being a back and forth of excuses and putting blame and lots of judgment. Yeah, teachers need to get that out. There's the time and place work. However, if you don't have a good structure, that part of the conversation will take up the entire time that you have set aside for your conversation. A good structure can help you plan and implement the difficult conversation so that you can get to the part of now what are we gonna do about it and how can I help you?
Speaker 2:There are two resources I rely on All the time for this. The first one is Quiet Leadership by David Roth. The second one is the coaching habit say less, ask more to change the way you lead forever by Michael. I always mess up his name, michael bunge, hey, nurse, and you're not sure, but I, if somebody knows how to say it, I'll help us out yeah, I refer to this book all the time.
Speaker 2:Those two books are wonderful resources because they provide a cycle that most conversations can follow.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:It's teachers doing more talking and teachers coming up with ideas on their own. Yeah, so it's less about me the coach needing to be the know-it-all and Me the coach being the decision maker. It's not about you pleasing me With the types of the conversation. The way it flows it though, that site, the cycles that they provide, put the action back on the teacher, mm-hmm, and then that makes it to where they're more likely to implement. Yes, because they've come up with it.
Speaker 2:I think that the easiest structure to implement right from the get-go is the structure that we would use in a conference with students.
Speaker 2:And, after all, like one of my favorite things that was told to me as a coach from another coach was Stephanie, stop talking to the kids, but teachers are your students.
Speaker 2:So, as a coach, if that structure works with kids and teachers are my kids, then that structure can work with Teachers as well. So the overall structure of a conference is research, decide, teach, and I can follow that in a difficult conversation that I need to have with a teacher. Because I can research, I can ask a lot of questions To the heart of the problem to gather. We can collectively decide what is going to be the next Course of action, what is best going forward, and then I can teach, I can provide options and strategies for them to implement I as a coach. That validates their thinking and their Feelings and what they want, but gets us quickly to what are we going to do about it. The second thing I find to be most helpful in conversations that are difficult, especially because, like you said, they are, there could be like some bad memories, previous conversations and and focusing on student work.
Speaker 2:What do you see in student behavior, what do you see in student habits and their work keeps the conversation student focused and You're removing blame and judgment. It's no longer about you doing something wrong, for you being a back teacher, mm-hmm. It becomes how our students responding to the instruction you are providing. Yeah, so, as we're entering these conversations, being ready with student work, being ready with examples or evidence that you have of what students are doing during instruction to help you support your thinking and suggestions, is something to help you plan for that conversation. So what kind of a multitude of examples can you have like in your back pocket so that it can help you facilitate the conversation in a productive way? And it's not a if you only saw this one time or this only happened one time, you have a lot of things.
Speaker 2:I also think that when you're having a conversation and you're focused on how our students responding to your instruction, asking teachers to provide evidence of what they think is happening as well, so ask them where can you? Where in their student work do they see this? What kind of behaviors have you seen in students to make you think that that's happening? What are the habits of your students that you see every day in the classroom that help you know your instruction is working. I think that's another way of helping them accept the current reality of what is happening in the classroom.
Speaker 1:I think this is so timely for several reasons, one being this is really what they'll be facing in the next few weeks and really from now on the rest of the year, and I think that a coach has an opportunity how to model what a difficult conversation looks like, and it's not something that people are really taught and it's really hard. So we let the emotions get out of control. So you giving them some really helpful things to consider, like being clear as kind, have the conversation because that's kind, thinking about the structure of the conversation is really important and making sure that it's a safe space. And the term gentle enforcer also use the term when I'm working with teachers like warm demand, or we'll talk about it's important to be a warm demand, or it's in this difficult, this difficult time Douglas Reeves talks about when things are like awkward, that's when we all make the most growth, and so I try to remind myself of that.
Speaker 1:When it's like I don't like how this feels, I don't like how this feels, but it's in that time that not only are we as coaches, but the teacher themselves that we're coaching is making the most growth too. So in my head, I have to remind myself that, and I even write down on strategically placed parts of where I'm taking notes like breathe, breathe. Just little reminders for myself. As we think about this. You are, coaches are going to be walking into lots of predictable problems during this time of year.
Speaker 2:I think, a predictable problem that's going to be coming up in late September, beginning of October or even late October. There are the conversations that teachers are going to have to start having parents. I always think of October as like parent teacher conference time, because it tends to be a couple of hours or eight to ten weeks after school has started and now it's time for updating parents, and that can be really scary for teachers. They feel like they have to justify their assessments or justify their thinking about their students or their child's progress and where they lie in the continuum of expectations. Yes, that's really scary for a lot of teachers. Even veteran teachers sometimes get nervous about having those conversations, and a predictable thing that I always found in the work that I do is teachers come to you as the coach asking for help about I have to have this difficult conversation with a parent and I don't know what to do. How can you help me with having these difficult conversations?
Speaker 2:The tip that I give teachers most is that they need to spend time identifying a lot of examples that provide parents a visual of what they're talking about. One of the ways they can provide a visual are anecdotal stories, no-transcript. Can you tell me times when what you're saying has happened. Can you provide examples? One of my favorite parent-teacher conferences as a parent, the teacher had scenario after scenario after scenario of things that had happened with my kid. My husband walked out of that conference. I was like I think she knows Kyle better than we know Kyle. So I was willing, we were willing, to listen to all of the things that she could provide. A lot of stories about my kid, yes. So I always think that preparing those ahead of time is really helpful.
Speaker 2:My favorite thing to recommend is to have examples of student work, and that work could be writing samples or a book that they are currently reading and having examples of what the expectation is. So could you have a grade level test? Yes, so could you have an example of a piece of writing that is meeting the expectation? Because what that does is immediately parents can see literally where their student lies against the expectation. Parents don't understand the jargon that we use and they don't necessarily understand all the rubrics we're going to share with them. So they can see quickly how their child ranks next to the expectation without needing to use the jargon. And when that visual is there, you don't have to justify your assessment Right Because they can see it Right. This is incredibly effective for parents because, at the end of the day, parents just want to know. Do you know my kid?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:How can you prove to me that you know my student individually compared to the other kids in your class, and they want to know what are you doing to help them make progress and sometimes like how can I help?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, exactly. So you know, having the visual there helps you have those conversations and they can see exactly that. You know where they are, you know what you're going to are, you know what you're going to do to help them make progress and the parent can see like, oh, they're not able to, like they're not writing enough volume, so I could, is there a way I can help them do that at home? Yeah, so I find that helping teachers at this time of the year prepare for the conversations with parents is a predictable problem. Yep.
Speaker 1:That's your spot on with that, and providing the examples of what their child is doing, along with an exemplar of what grade level expectation at that time of the year is really a helpful tool to let them understand, kind of, where they're falling. And then you talked about like what am I going to do for your child? And then sometimes parents are like what can I do to help? It's a great strategy that builds a team effort in educating their child. You know, like the whole child thinking through that, what tip or reminder do you want to share with with the coaches this time of year?
Speaker 2:I think a tip would be to. So I think it's not necessarily a tip, it's more of a reminder that I have. I think that it's about utilizing this time of the school year as much as possible. From now until winter break is typically the calmest time of the school year, but right now there's a routine in place. Everyone's kind of gotten to know their students and there aren't as many disruptions to the school calendar. It seems to be just ongoing and this makes it the perfect time to focus on and dig into curriculum implementation and instructional strategies. So utilizing your coaching cycles right now as much as possible is the tip or reminder that I would give. Having a really good routine with your calendar as an instructional coach is the reminder or tip that I think I would provide. So when you're having any kind of conversation with teachers you are ready to put in place like how I'm going to help you quickly, because we often see the most growth in students in this time of the year.
Speaker 1:Of the year. Yep, that's a good reminder too. We're getting ready, we're entering the time of year where we will see that most growth, and I think it's important for us to remember that keeping the same routine, these structures, getting that curriculum implementation in place strongly right now is one of the reasons that's happening.
Speaker 2:Right, and so, as a coach, you have to be ready to make sure you're available to teachers consistently and to help support them in that implementation of curriculum and using all of the instructional strategies we want them to use.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for today. This is going to be so helpful for so many coaches. I appreciate you and I know that I'm not alone, that there are many others out there listening. Especially, we want to say thank you right now to we started getting the data on our podcast and those of you in Germany whoop, whoop, I'm going to learn some German so that we have like a fun little thank you or something. Thank you for listening and those of you around the United States we did have a little bit in Asia, but mostly we're in Germany right now, so I just want to let everyone know.
Speaker 1:If you are loving hearing from Dr Brenner, she has other episodes available. There's one on episode 16 and where she's talking about navigating the new school year Episode 20, she did a lot of really great learning where she was talking to us about leading the organization, essential skills for curriculum and professional learning, and that was all about data. If you are looking for ways to support your teachers and get your teachers some free professional development, that's part of what this podcast is about. I want to encourage you to listen to Dr Natalie Fowler and she is in episode. Recently she was in episode 18 talking about cultivating classroom excellence insights from a seasoned educator, and there she talked about the importance of planning. And in episode 19, embracing classroom routines, she talked about the importance of getting your routines in place. And episode 24, she talked its approaches to enhance student success. And that was all about goal setting, student goal setting and if you did, she is really good with that, I agree. It's truly inspiring and it would be a really great thing to do in PLCs.
Speaker 1:Listen to the podcast and then talk about that together. Like how could we try some of these things If you didn't know? Compass PD has a big goal of impacting the learning of one million students and one way you can help us meet that goal is by sharing this podcast with a fellow educator or hitting the like, follow, subscribe, whatever button it looks like and wherever you're listening to your podcast. If you find this learning helpful, our team works with leaders and teachers in school districts every day. Reach out to us and we would be happy to talk with you and how we can help you and your school district reach their ambitious goals. Thank you so much, Stephanie. Thank you everyone. Have a great day.