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Compass PD Podcast with Dr. Carrie Hepburn
Compass PD Podcast with Dr. Carrie Hepburn
Episode 52: Creating Independent Learners in the Secondary Classroom
In this episode of the Compass PD Podcast, Dr. Carrie Hepburn and Dr. Natalie Fallert discuss the critical shift from dependent to independent learning in secondary classrooms. Celebrating recent success, where coaching led to over 20% gains in ELA assessments, they explore the difference between teaching and telling, highlighting the impact of collective teacher efficacy on student outcomes. The episode delves into the challenges of assuming student knowledge, emphasizing the importance of clear instruction and fostering independent learning skills. Listeners will gain practical tips on empowering students to take ownership of their learning and strategies for creating a classroom environment that promotes autonomy and success.
Teach Don't Assign: Creating Independent Learners
Hello and welcome to the Compass PD podcast, where we dive into evidence-based practices and research-driven strategies that empower educators and leaders to make a lasting impact. I'm Dr Keri Hepburn, your host, alongside my friend and colleague, dr Natalie Fowler. Hi, natalie.
Speaker 2:Good morning. Hello, I say good morning, and it's really dark there in your picture, because it's dark where you are and it's light where I am.
Speaker 1:It is, we're on Pacific time and Natalie is in Central time right now, so we're recording bright and early for me and a little more normal time in Natalie's world right now. So, as you all know, natalie is our Secondary Educator extraordinaire. Today she is here to explore with us the topic of independent learning in secondary classrooms. This is a subject that I know resonates with many of you. Before we dig deep, though, I have to just like publicly announce and celebrate Natalie. We got some amazing news this week from some schools that she supports, and those schools, natalie received big gains in their high stakes assessments. You were able to do coaching in classrooms with teachers, and those middle school teachers saw 20% plus increase on their high stakes assessments. Congratulations to you and to them. What thoughts do you have like about this? Because 20%, we were really excited about our 10, 15% gains and we're talking 20% in a year. What are you thinking?
Speaker 2:Yes, that was very exciting news. It actually made me kind of double take like 20%, because that is awesome and we love that and celebrate it and we hope that we can replicate that multiple times. But any increase that anybody can see is always a positive. But at this particular school I worked with English and social studies teachers and we focused on a few high leverage reading strategies and model those in classrooms with students, and I think that I don't want to pass up the fact that the teacher's collective efficacy with these strategies was a key component to their student success. We chose high leverage strategies that can be used across disciplines, but the teacher's collective expectations and their common practices really drove home that impact.
Speaker 1:That's that is, the kids.
Speaker 2:Right. They're like oh, it's a strategy in both this class and that class and they were seeing it multiple times, not only throughout the day, but in different activities and assignments over the course of weeks, and they could go back to those. So we were creating these tools for kids and the teachers were just reminding them remember that tool, you can use that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think that's what's amazing is you came in, modeled some high leverage strategies in social studies and in English and students started seeing that they could use it in multiple situations and that increases their transference and increases their ability to be able to do that faster, more efficiently, and they can see that they can access that text on their own. When you were doing that, you were able to increase teacher confidence, because sometimes they get really nervous about trying something different. So you were coming in like let me show you how to do this, you can do this, allowing them to practice, and that I think in partnering the strategies, modeling, building that teacher collective efficacy, it was like the perfect combination that set them up for success and that was really, really fun to watch last year. So what we hope?
Speaker 2:is that it's a great segue into today's podcast, because all of those strategies were creating independent learners. It was taking the workload off of the teacher and saying let's show these kids how to read different texts and find different vocabulary strategies so that they can better comprehend it on their own. Because, let's face it, every kid comes into our classroom, no matter what grade, whether it kindergarten to 12th grade at different places, and so we wanted to give them strategies that they could use independently to tackle the text that was in front of them and the challenges that they individually were facing.
Speaker 1:Well and I think we see this happen year after year that you go into these classrooms with the secondary teachers, you're, in my mind, simplifying their workload, like, okay, we which I know I have to be careful we'll get too deep into what we're going to talk about but just watching you be able to say you're doing too much, let's get the kids doing more is a mind shift.
Speaker 1:Whether you're a teacher, administrator or district leader, our goal is to provide you with tools and insights that help you navigate the complexities of education and inspire student success, and that's really what this podcast today is going to be about. Our dependent learners are our youngest students but in all actuality, like students in elementary, become very dependent or stuck in a dependency cycle, but we continue to perpetuate that at the secondary level, our team repeatedly hears that secondary teachers wish their students were more independent. So that's today what our secondary expert, dr Fowler, who's one of the best at moving students from dependent to independent learners, is going to talk about. And something that I think we'll learn is that the most challenging part of the process is training us. It's not the kids, it's us as the teachers, as the educators.
Speaker 2:So I have always taught high school students and through that experience I feel that there are a few factors that play into this.
Speaker 2:Middle school is when kids really like shift from learning to read to reading to learn, and so if they come into middle school behind in reading, then this gap usually widens for multiple reasons.
Speaker 2:One, the system is set up for middle school teachers to have 100 plus students on their rosters, and so they are. There's a lot, that's a lot of kids to manage. And then the second thing is that they are trained to be more focused on content, like we've got to get through this content. And the third kind of piece of that which ties into that content is that they have limited time with their students. Most of them are, you know, either on a block schedule, so you're with kids for anywhere between 45 and 90 minutes, and I say that 90 minutes might be every other day, or 40 to 50 minutes depending on your schedule. So you have limited time, lots of kids and a whole bunch of content to cover, and too often the system perpetuates the environment that builds dependency out of necessity, which only makes students more dependent with each year. And so the key here is is thinking about how do we break that cycle, even though the system is working against us.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's powerful. So limited time, lots of kids, too much content and the system set up for that. So we have to break the system. This is this is not for the faint of heart, I guess is what I'm thinking. I'm thinking, holy cow, that's a lot.
Speaker 2:Some people might think, oh, I'm only talking to educators, like classroom teachers. But when we're talking about that system like this is something that an administrator really needs to be listening to is OK. Do I have this system in place in my building, how am I perpetuating it and what can I do to help teachers not feel the pressure of that system? Or what can I do to change that system?
Speaker 1:Our listeners are going to be able to expect from us a few things we're going to talk about really. You're going to be talking about the difference between teaching and telling we're going to talk about really. You're going to be talking about the difference between teaching and telling, what happens when we assume students know how to do something, or what happens when we think they can't do it right my favorite thing, I know I know. And then we'll talk about the structures, systems, routines that teachers and educators can use to teach students to develop independent learners in those secondary classrooms. So we'll dig right into this first part of the content. We're going to talk about a few questions we have about the difference between teaching and telling. Can you explain to us what is the difference between teaching and telling?
Speaker 2:So I think I'm speaking for the bulk of secondary teachers and yes, I'm guilty of assigning work or task versus breaking it down and teaching it. We give them like a handout with the final product and a due date and possibly some checkpoints along the way, and as the kids work on those tasks, we look at their work and we provide feedback. So we're not just sitting around, we don't just hand something out and then go sit at our desk. We are doing work, but we might do like whole class lesson on certain parts, but again, those parts are normally product based, and so I think that it might be easier for me to kind of give an example of what that looks like so that it resonates a little bit more. I think about we might assign an essay to students and spend a day showing how to put in-text citations into their essay or give the students a frame or a stem for writing an introduction or a conclusion paragraph, but we don't really teach it or break it down like the actual process of that, and the focus is more about the product that is completed and not the process that it takes to get there. And even more specific example, and I see this, I think I see this more than anything as an English teacher is that teachers will say to students in whatever they're writing, you need to put quotes in your paper. And I think I just resonated with every English teacher in the world Like you have to put quotes in your paper. That's what we say, that's what comes out of our mouth, and if it's a literary text or even like an informative piece, what ends up happening is that kids are going to those texts and they're actually looking for dialogue, they're looking for things in quotation marks, so, and then they grab that and they pull it out and then they throw it in their paper and they add a citation that that final product has a quoted piece of material and it is perfectly placed and punctuated with citations, but it sucks. It's terrible.
Speaker 2:I guess the teacher, we step back and we're like you. You literally just mic dropped this quote into your paper. What is this? And it creates confusion for the reader. And then, as a teacher, you're stuck because you're like. You did exactly what I asked you to do. You found quoted material, you put it in your paper, you cited it. Perfect, so the product was beautiful. But it makes absolutely no sense, did it? Perfect, so the product was beautiful, but it makes absolutely no sense that. So we're missing this, this critical thinking piece, and at this point this kind of gets into like another, a whole other issue, like the papers turned in and I got to move on, and so that's part of that system also. That's like perpetuating this. So that's an example what I mean by we aren't breaking it down and teaching it, we're assigning it. So hopefully that kind of resonates. And I know that your next question is going to be like well, how do I get to that other piece?
Speaker 1:Well, I actually was just 15 minutes, or whatever. I know, I know. So I was just thinking about your blog that you recently did Teach, don't Assign Creating Independent Learners and you talk about the importance of teaching students the process too, in that blog. That's one part of it and I think that would be a great place for our listeners to go. I'm going to link that in our show notes so that they can check that out and read that, because that's so important.
Speaker 2:So in that we wrote that blog and you've published it already, and now we're kind of I'm working on some that are a little bit more specific, like hey, if you're reading fiction, here are some ways you can break that down. If you're writing the research paper, here are some ways. And these aren't and I'll be all. They're not perfect, but it at least gives you a mind frame and a starting point for you to start thinking through that process.
Speaker 1:Your example, really helped us a lot with explaining the difference between teaching and telling. Let's move into that second part of today's podcast, which is what happens when we assume students know how to do something. Would you mind talking about what happens when we assume students know how to do something? Would you mind talking about, like, what happens when we assume students know how to do something?
Speaker 2:So, just as the example I gave about, you know, adding quotes, what I found is that we throw things out around like add a quote, but we don't explain what that actually means or why, nor do we teach exactly how to do it. We just kind of assume that our kids know, or we provide one example and then assume that the students can transfer that information to other aspects, and so we might show them one example of pulling a quote from a literary text, but we might not show it from an article, or let them practice it a couple times with a different lens. So what happens is that kids actually kind of pull things they find in quotations because that's how their brain works and they don't understand that when they pull something directly from the text it now becomes a quote. So like we haven't broke that down and taught it that, and that's why we rarely see kids pulling actions or situations to support their analysis. They're only pulling dialogue. So we haven't stepped back and said when you pull something from this text you are quoting now Harper Lee, you don't have to use dialogue. So something that's simple, that's a connection in our head. We just assume that they get that and they don't.
Speaker 2:And so stepping back and literally breaking down each one of those things and explaining why we did what we did is important. We assume that they have the same understanding of a quote, but in reality they don't. And, unfortunately, by the time a teacher realizes that this is what the kids are doing, they're at the end of the unit and they have to move on. So the issue doesn't get addressed and the behavior is perpetuated because, let's face it, as middle school and high school teachers, we're expected to give them a grade and if you're especially in that middle school range, if you give them a D or an F, you are most likely in trouble as a teacher. So you give them a A, b or C, even though they it wasn't great work, but they did exactly what you wanted. And that's a problem, because how do you justify giving them a low grade when they did exactly what you wanted? Because of that teacher clarity piece.
Speaker 1:So I'm hearing like I keep thinking they need to understand the why and the purpose, you know, and then how to bring that out when they're doing this kind of work. How do you, why are we doing it? What's the purpose of it? And then now what? How do you make that happen? How do you bring that to life? As a student and I can understand with the amount of content, the amount of students, the amount of limited time that they have the pressure to just try to plow through because it feels like that takes longer I can, I can. Now I want to talk about, like, what happens on the flip side. So right now, we just talked about what happens when we assume students don't don't know how to do something, but what happens when we think they can't do something so this one is um so true and it was a punch to the gut for me.
Speaker 2:I was at a, a teaching institute in Columbia University, where Mary Aaronworth said these exact words. To like the whole group. She said if you don't think your students can do something, you right because you don't think they can. I was like, oh wow, oh, that is. It was such a reality check for me. And when teachers say to me like we'll be in a room and they'll say, well, they can't do that and I'm like you're right, because you don't think they can, and they like they're just like, oh my gosh, you just totally fit in me.
Speaker 2:And I know that these teachers love their kids. I know that they they want what's best for them, and so it's a rip the bandaid off kind of approach. But I even think about this, as with my own children I will. You know, too often my husband and I will step in and fix a problem or show them how to do something, instead of letting them have that struggle productively to figure it out, because either we're annoyed we need to move on, like we don't have time for this, or we don't think they can do it. Then they never learn because we we we don't want to watch them fail, but sometimes we know that failure is the best way to learn, and so that also ties back to those expectations.
Speaker 2:If they're going to do something independently, the outcome might not be perfect or exactly as I would have done it. So you have to decide do you want imperfect work that is owned by the student, or do you want perfect work that you did? And at a middle school and high school level, you're doing a hundred of those a day, and the chances are that you will not have perfect independent work, and that's where we have to retrain our teachers. Is that it's okay to have independent work that isn't perfect? Because if not, then you're going to be doing all the work.
Speaker 1:Right, oh, my gosh, that's so good. We have to quote that. We have to quote that. And when we share this podcast with everyone, I love that. Thank you so much. So do you want imperfect work that's owned by the student or perfect work that's done by you? So, really, really thoughtful thinking, okay. So, when we think about this and all that you've talked about, I would love to hear, maybe like your top three to five tips to developing those independent learners.
Speaker 2:So I think that you know, depending on the grade level, there's a little bit of some nuance of how you might handle this, because I'm coming straight in off of sixth grade. You might handle it a little bit different than than older grades. But ultimately it boils down to this that if I were to do my three, you have to cut the cord and this is, I think, really hard for teachers that you have to quit giving them the answers or doing the work for them, even if they fail. In fact, they are going to have to fail and you are going to have to put a failing grade in the gradebook and stick to your guns and most, most of your students are going to crawl out of the hole and most, most of your students are going to crawl out of the hole. Now, when they say, put a failing grade in that grade book, you might, based on your administration, you might have to go back and and massage that grade a little bit after they've met the expectation. But if, if you, if there isn't a consequence, they're not going to respond. Second thing is that you have to set high expectations and I know that I just said it might sound like I'm talking out of two sides of my mouth. But, like you have to set high expectations, you have to expect them to do more in less time. And yes, that is what I said do more in less time.
Speaker 2:So look at them and say you have 20 minutes to write an entire paper, go, I promise they will get there. If you set a timer, they will get there because at first they're going to spend the first three minutes going. I can't do this. But on their end of course, exams or high stakes assessments they only have X amount of time to write a full essay. So start doing it.
Speaker 2:Give them more to do and less time. And then give them ways to be successful. Think about training them and giving them little steps or milestones to feel success along the way. And so, even though you're you know, if you say I want you to write a full page in 10 minutes and they only get half a page, congratulate them on that and then the next day ask them to do it again and if they're two sentences further compliment that Show them how they got further in those two days. So they might not meet the expectation, but they're working toward it, because it's much better than after 10 minutes or five minutes than sitting there with nothing on their paper when you give them a timeline those would be the three key tips that I would give in those pieces.
Speaker 2:And that's hard because all three of those are training the teacher. Yes, and it's going to be hard because you're going to see lots of productive struggle.
Speaker 1:I hope that these insights were really helpful to you, listeners, as you are navigating your educational journey more clearly and confidently. Please feel free to share your thoughts or experiences. We would love to hear from you and, if you found today's episode valuable, consider sharing it with a colleague who might benefit from this message. Next week, we are going to explore dyslexia. As October is Dyslexia Awareness Month, and I'll be joined that week by a dyslexia expert, dr Stephanie Brenner, we want to encourage you to tune in. Thank you so much, dr Fowler. It was wonderful to have you today.
Speaker 2:I walked away with so much Thank you for having me. I love have you today. I walked away with so much Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:I love talking about this kind of stuff. Thanks so much for joining the Compass PD podcast. Remember, at Compass PD, we believe that every educator has the power to inspire, change and transform student learning. Stay focused, stay inspired and keep making a difference.