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Compass PD Podcast with Dr. Carrie Hepburn
Compass PD Podcast with Dr. Carrie Hepburn
Episode 59: Feedback That Matters: Practical Tools for the Math Classroom
In this episode of the Compass PD Podcast, Dr. Stephanie Brenner, along with Dr. Sherri Lorton and Constance Hallemeier, dives into the art of effective feedback in the math classroom. They explore how instructional tools like learning progressions and proficiency scales, featured in the Comprehensive Standards Guides (CSGs), empower teachers to provide actionable and personalized feedback. Tune in to learn practical ways to integrate these tools, helping you guide each student’s progress with precision and clarity.
Whether you’re a teacher, administrator, or district leader, this episode offers strategies to elevate your feedback practices and better support student learning.
Hello and welcome to the Compass PD podcast, where we dive into evidence-based practices and research-driven strategies that empower educators and leaders to make a lasting impact. I'm Dr Stephanie Brenner, your host, alongside Dr Sherry Lorton and Constance Hollemeier. Welcome, dr Lorton and Mrs Hollemeier. Hi, hi. Today we are exploring how to give effective feedback utilizing instructional tools such as progressions and proficiency scales that are created while unpacking standards, a subject that I know resonates with many of you. Sherry and Constance are fellow co-authors of the Comprehensive Standards Guides, which are unpacked standards that also provide instructional tools such as standards-based progressions and proficiency skills. The comprehensive standards guides are available for ELA and math. However, today we are going to focus on Sherry and Constance's favorite subject, math, and I have to tell you right before we started our podcast, constance actually said all day today I got to play math, so you could tell from just something like that that it's definitely Constance's favorite subject. Whether you're a teacher, administrator or district leader, our goal is to provide you with insights and tools that help you navigate the complexities of education and inspire student success.
Speaker 1:The team at Compass PD are outstanding leaders in their respectable fields in education. Over the last year, we have developed the Comprehensive Standards Guides. It has been a labor of love. We are referring to them as the CSGs for short. The CSGs are a tool to support teachers in the area of math and ELA, where every single standard and I mean every single standard is thoroughly unpacked. Explicit learning targets are defined and provided, vocabulary terms are determined ahead of time and common definitions are provided, and common definitions are provided. Standard-based objectives are provided to uncover implicit learning, progressions of student learning and proficiency scales are also provided. All of this is in place, while the CSGs are resource agnostic, meaning you can pick them up and use them with any resource or any curriculum that your school district is using. Would one of you be willing to share why progressions and proficiency skills are so important to your work?
Speaker 2:I would love to Stephanie. So progressions to me are something that a teacher can pick up and look at to realize these are the background skills that my students need to have to be successful in the standard that we're looking at right here and now. As a teacher, that becomes a phenomenal resource because I can then know or see where maybe my students are struggling in some of those before skills, the skills that they need to be successful. And then proficiency skills help me as a teacher to realize when have my students actually mastered the standard, not the things leading up to the standard, but the actual standard, and so having that benchmark set for me makes it hard for the bar to get moved for myself and for my fellow teachers. So it sets the bar at the same level for everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so much of what you said there Constance is like just really resonates with me and, I'm sure, many of our listeners. One of the things that really stood out was that knowing the skills beforehand when I may, as teacher, just be kind of stuck in my lane of my grade level, my content area, and not necessarily being totally knowledgeable of what's before, that leads to the gaps that we see in our kids, and proficiency scales and progressions can really help us do that. When you walk away from the podcast today, you will have a clear understanding of how to use progressions and proficiency scales to provide feedback to students at any level for a variety of purposes. Let's dive in. What are learning progressions and proficiency scales?
Speaker 3:The learning progressions and proficiency scales in the CSGs are tools that teachers can use to provide feedback to students as well as their parents. The learning progressions are a series of incremental changes that occur in a student's thinking and skills as they move from one standard to the next. They can be used to create a sequence of learning where concepts and skills develop over time, and they are helpful because they can assist teachers in providing constructive feedback to students about their strengths, the next steps they need and areas for growth.
Speaker 2:And along with progressions. We developed proficiency scales which help our teachers communicate course standards to students and all of their stakeholders. They help teachers to assess where students are in their learning and determine if they've mastered the standard. They can also help teachers connect standards to what they teach in the classroom and the assessments that they use. Both tools allow teachers or students to monitor progress on a standard over time or over several assignments.
Speaker 1:So what you're saying is that progressions and proficiency scales play a huge part in our classroom and the instruction that we provide our students. If knowing that, these are tools that are that important, what are some ways that we can use proficiency scales and progressions in the classroom? Because we know our teachers are busy and adding something new to what they're doing already can be a big ask, and so what we're asking better be impactful. So what are some of the things that teachers, or some of the ways that teachers can use these tools in their classroom?
Speaker 3:So some of the ways that proficiency scales and learning progressions can be more useful include making the descriptors explicit, creating organized lists or possibly using portfolios. So having these descriptors that are very explicit makes the statements easy for students to understand and they also give a common language for teachers as an expectation for teachers as they are preparing lessons and working with students. Teachers could also create A hard copy or electronic version with a list of those descriptors, keep them in an easily accessible location, like on an iPad or a laptop. They could use, if they prefer hard copy, a clipboard or binders, and that will allow them to refer to it quickly when they're planning and teaching whole group lessons as well as small groups. Portfolio binders are also a good option, having one for each student and organizing them into a case or on a counter where they are easily accessible. They can pull them off when they're working with a group or with the class and just simply make those anecdotal notes, whether it's a checklist, a plus, some kind of note that shows where they are along those progressions.
Speaker 3:Another good thing to consider is, whenever we do provide that feedback for students, we want them to not just read it, but we really want them to use it, and we need to provide opportunities for them to reflect on their understanding based on the feedback that we provided. One way to do that is to ask students to identify the changes that they have made and what those changes were based on. So did they? Do they now have further understanding because they have been practicing the skill? Did they base their changes on a class discussion or peer feedback? Why are they making the changes that they made in order to further their skills on that standard?
Speaker 2:So, sherry, talked about using those progressions to keep track of where students are in their learning. Well, on those learning progressions, it becomes very easy then for a teacher to take that feedback, or take that those check marks, and figure out what small groups can I pull, so that then I can provide specific feedback to that small group of students based on where they are in that progression. So pulling small groups becomes so much easier because the progressions will help you figure out where students are in their learning and students get feedback that's specific to their needs and I'll help them implement the feedback ideas. Another way that progressions for feedback can be utilized is in professional learning communities. So as we collect this information that Dr Lorton talked about communities so as we collect this information that Dr Lorton talked about, we can then go to our fellow teachers and our PLCs and see where are their students, because maybe their students are being more successful in some of those earlier skills. Then we can have a conversation about what are you doing? How did you review, how did you catch them up so quickly? And then it makes it easier for you to take back those strategies into your classroom. So feedback from other teachers then becomes valuable and they have specific and actionable feedback that they can move students towards the standard learning targets that they're trying to get to.
Speaker 2:Progressions and proficiency scales can also be used in the MTSS or the multi-tiered system of support process. Twofold One it can be feedback for teachers to figure out what supports do our students need. Do they need tier two supports? Do they need tier three supports? Are they beyond the grade level content or do they need some remediation?
Speaker 2:The other piece that's useful is that our students are all aiming for the same target. So our tier one instruction because the proficiency scales and the progressions are explicit about the standards our target for every classroom becomes the same. So we're not flagging students for intervention in one classroom because our target is a different spot, and so we want to make sure that, as we're looking at students, we're basing it all on the same expectations For students. The progressions can be used to help them receive feedback based on the skill level they're ready for. So if a student who's in your class at a fourth grade level but they're working at a first grade level, we can because our progressions and proficiency skills align from grade level to grade level we can go to those first grade skills and work our way up so that we can hopefully see some progress towards a fourth grade skill, and so our progressions and our proficiency skills really help bolster our feedback to students and teachers.
Speaker 1:It sounds like you know, at the beginning of this portion I asked where can the progressions and proficiency scales be used in the classroom? Scales be used in the classroom and I think that the better question is really like where can't they be used? Because it sounds like the proficiency scales and the progressions can be used in every aspect of your instruction and planning, from your individual teaching to your PLC teaching and even at a district level when planning district-wide curriculum and expectations and interventions and all the stuff. So kind of where can't they be used would be maybe a shorter answer. It means it's really good stuff and you're getting your bang for your buck with one tool that can be utilized in a multiple parts of your day. That's right. With everything we know, there are challenges and there are predictable challenges that can come with implementing a new tool. What would you offer as some predictable challenges to be expected when using the progressions and proficiency scales to give feedback?
Speaker 3:The challenge of time is always tough for us as educators. To effectively create learning progressions or proficiency scales, it's imperative that the standard is completely unwrapped, vocabulary is defined and skills are identified that lead up to being proficient as well as advanced on the standard. We have to recognize the basic skills that are needed to begin the learning, and then all of the skills that show proficiency as well as advancement have to be put into a continuum. Doing all this will give the teachers in a team, a building or a district a common language and common expectations for the standard, and it's a very worthwhile process. But doing that task with every standard is one that is so time consuming that it's really rarely able to be completed in a proper amount of time. So fortunately, compass PD has created the comprehensive standard guides that can be immediately implemented by teachers and coaches and teams and administrators to provide support for students and their teams.
Speaker 1:Yeah, something I want to jump in and add there that you said, sherry, is what I see with this kind of problem is that teachers it seems to be unpacking standards and trying to create proficiency scales and progressions is a never-ending task of a PLC.
Speaker 1:They spend a lot, like you said, a lot of time and a lot of tears doing this really hard work, never getting to the point of completion where they walk away with something that they can turn around and use to really plan their instruction, to really plan what their interventions are going to look like or any of that. It's nice that we have created that tool to take that work out of the mix and allow the teams and PLCs to focus on getting to the good stuff. Getting to what does our instruction need to look like? Here's the information about the standard, about the standard. Now let's put our time into providing instruction and planning what that instruction is going to look like. And what are we going to do when our kids don't meet that expectation, as well as what you mentioned, when they already met the expectation, what are we going to do?
Speaker 3:Yes we find a lot of times that teams sorry.
Speaker 1:No, go ahead. I just really needed to add in that. It just kind of really struck me what you said, that we just never teams, never get there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes, it seems like a lot of times with teams they get to the unwrapping the standards part, which is very valuable. But if we don't get into those learning progressions and basic skills to understand where the students need to begin and each and every step of where they need to go to show that proficiency, then you're really not. You don't have that useful tool until you have that full progression. Yeah, and we want them to have that in tool until you have that full progression?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we want them to have that in their hands, because that's the valuable information that helps us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I love that we're thinking through like how to get it into the hands of the teacher so that it can be in the hands of the students, because until the students have it, it's not a tool for them. They don't know it exists and they don't. They don't understand a lot of times the value of the progressions to get them to where or they need to be to be proficient on a learning target, and so I would say one of the challenges is just getting that student buy-in, understanding the value of it, because a lot of them have never seen a progression and don't understand it. But as they practice with it, our students will understand how the feedback they're receiving fits with the progression and can help them move towards mastery and the proficiency scale. It also allows them to set their own goals. They can set their goals based on their progression.
Speaker 2:If I'm still struggling on some of these skills that lead up to my learning targets, well, I want to set my goals there. How can I build and grow my knowledge so that I can get to where I want to be? And hopefully they'll begin to start seeing their growth in their learning speed up, which will be amazing for teachers to be able to see. So until we have those, like Dr Lorton said, where our students don't really have that understanding of where, how to get to where they want to be, it also makes the feedback more targeted for our students, so that time won't be wasted on teaching students something they already know, because if everyone has all of these beginning skills, why should I spend time on that? And so you'll get back time by helping students understand how to use these progressions and proficiency skills.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the things that you said, constance is they need to be in the students' hands. Instance is they need to be in the students' hands. And one of my favorite parts about the CSGs the progression part of the CSGs is that that is meant to be a student-facing tool. When you actually look at that tool, it has stars on the different levels three stars, two stars, one star so you can even say to a kid you're in the two star right now, what's the difference between two stars and three stars and what do you need to do to get to three stars? Because that is mastery of this standard, but it's in kid-friendly vocabulary, so that it can be a tool that we can get in our students' hands and get them used to receiving authentic feedback that feels like feedback and not a judgment.
Speaker 2:Feedback being feedback for its real, authentic purpose, and I really, really like you. You keep calling it feedback when there's progressions.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's almost feed forward oh, that's a good thought, because I like that where they're going like we're not.
Speaker 2:We're not looking backwards, we're looking forward to where they need to get to whoa, you just blew my mind Constance.
Speaker 1:I like that. Well, in just a short amount of time you guys have provided so many key takeaways for me, and I'm going to do my best to wrap it up for all of us today and kind of put in some really concise words what you guys have shared. So some of the things I'm really walking away with are that learning progressions and proficiency scales are instructional tools for teachers and students, that they can be used in all aspects of instruction and in planning, from the individual student to the individual teacher, to a PLC and even at a district level. Some of the best ways to use those tools are to provide common expectations around with the PLC, so everyone knows exactly what we're going towards, and I guess we could even say it's common expectations for the students, and in the classroom too, every kid is crystal clear on what their goal is. There is clear language that is the same for everyone, and that language builds on itself too as we go across grade levels and content areas. I am also walking away with the fact that it helps give very explicit, actionable steps forward for a student. It helps a teacher know exactly what they can say to a kid and it helps a kid know exactly what they need to do next in their sequence of learning events.
Speaker 1:Did I do? Okay, wrapping that up for you guys, anything you would add. Did I miss anything?
Speaker 2:No, Are you sure?
Speaker 1:Okay. So today we did cover a lot. We talked about what are learning progressions and what are proficiency scales, especially what are the CSGs or the comprehensive standards guides, how they can be used in the classroom and what are some predictable problems that you can expect when starting to use proficiency scales and progressions to provide feedback to your students. I know this information is going to help you navigate your educational journey more clearly and confidently. Please feel free to share your thoughts or experiences. I'd love to hear from you and, if you found today's episode valuable, consider sharing it with a colleague who might benefit from this message. Next week, Dr Fowler and I will be exploring feedback in ELA using the instructional tools like progressions and proficiency scales that are provided in the Comprehensive Standards Guides. Be sure to tune in. I'm Dr Stephanie Brenner. Thank you for joining us on the Compass PD podcast. Remember, at Compass PD, we believe that every educator has the power to inspire, change and transform student learning. Stay focused, stay inspired and keep making a difference.