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Compass PD Podcast with Dr. Carrie Hepburn
Compass PD Podcast with Dr. Carrie Hepburn
Episode 76: Mindsets & Methods: Smart, Student-Centered Test Prep
In this episode of the Compass PD Podcast, Dr. Natalie Fallert and Dr. Stephanie Brenner explore the world of test prep—and not the kind that makes kids (and teachers) cringe. From everyday instruction that builds confidence to last-minute strategies that matter most, this episode unpacks practical, mindset-shifting approaches for elementary and secondary classrooms.
You’ll hear realistic strategies and powerful reminders that testing should never define your students—or your teaching. Whether you're a teacher, instructional coach, or administrator, this conversation will help refine your approach to high-stakes testing with clarity, purpose, and heart.
Hello and welcome to the Compass PD podcast, where we dive into evidence-based practices and research-driven strategies that empower educators and leaders to make a lasting impact. I am Dr Natalie Fowler, alongside Dr Stephanie Brenner, and today we are exploring the wonderful topic of test prep, a subject I know resonates with many of you.
Speaker 2:So, stephanie, how are you doing? I am doing well. How are you today?
Speaker 1:I'm great it's kind of funny that we're having this podcast, because I am technically on site in New Jersey working with the district and one of the things that I'm working on them right now is with test prep, and so they're gearing up for their state test and they're a district that has to do like a boot camp or whatever, and so we're working on those best strategies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's very timely for a lot of people, because many districts are in that same position.
Speaker 1:Yes, so, whether you are a teacher, administrator or district leader, our goal is to provide you with insights and tools that help you navigate the complexities of education and inspire student success. So we talked a little bit about like oh, we're here talking about test prep. So, stephanie, what would listeners expect from today's podcast?
Speaker 2:It's three bullets. What are the most impactful ways to conduct test prep within the classroom? Be number one, number two what does test prep look like? Because it looks different in elementary than it does in the secondary lens. And then also, how do we shift the attitudes of the students and even the adults and their mindsets towards high stakes test taking? How do we get the mind shift, our mindset shift, to where it's not such a high anxiety inducing time for our students or our teachers?
Speaker 1:So it's interesting you say that because, just for anybody who doesn't know, stephanie and I I live in the world of secondary education in language arts and Stephanie comes from that elementary lens. So our hopes are that you will walk away and have ways to incorporate test prep into your classroom and understand the importance of shifting kids' attitudes and mindsets toward test taking. You're going to hear some personal stories from both of us that come from both that elementary and that secondary lens. Are you ready to dive in?
Speaker 2:I am. I hope you are.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to just I will call it like it is I hate talking about tests. I don't hate it, I say that, but it's sometimes it just has such a negative connotation that it's like, oh, we've got to do test prep Right, and I can. I can totally see that, because it leads us into this very first discussion. We want to talk about some good strategies and I just want to say that the best strategy and I think that Stephanie will agree is that it comes with everyday teaching, from August to September, of your skills and standards, not topics that are books, but of skills and standards. So if you're doing this every single day in your class, then your kids are ready for this test.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the listeners can't see me Like if you're only listening, you can't see me like really nodding and shaking my head along. I absolutely agree with what Natalie has said. I think that for even at the elementary level, if you are spending a lot of time reading and writing in your classrooms, then that makes it to where very little test prep for content in elementary needs to take place.
Speaker 1:One of the things that Stephanie kind of had written down was that throughout the year are you giving them opportunities to do these different types of answers and responses, so having like those structured responses? I know that at secondary, a lot of the tests when you get to that secondary level, or multiple choice tests, but a lot of times as teachers we don't want to always give kids multiple choice tests, but if we don't expose them periodically throughout the year then we're going to be missing that opportunity and you want to incorporate some of those ways that they're going to be tested or expected to show their answers or knowledge throughout the school year. Did I say that right, stephanie?
Speaker 2:Yeah, also like from that elementary perspective too, when we're first teaching kids how to be prepared to talk about their text, we're using a lot of physical things within the book itself to help them, like take notes so they can remember their thinking and then be ready to answer questions about what they read. They can still do some of that on the test, but we have to teach them how to do that and also teach them what it looks like to transfer. How do I like when I'm thinking about character change and I noticed that on this, the book I'm reading, that's the same thing it? My teacher hands me this test in April, helping them make the connection that it's the same stuff.
Speaker 1:We're doing that same work. It doesn't matter the text that you have in front of you. There are characters in the story. We're going to do that same work. Yeah, that's our kind of soapbox. Is that your kids should be doing this all year long? If you have to do this, we want to kind of go over what that might look like and what some of those best practices or approaches could look like.
Speaker 1:So I know that at the secondary level, I really call this out, like I tell my kids we are, this is what we're doing out. Like I tell my kids we are this is what we're doing, and so that they understand the purpose behind it. Because I also tell them that when you're reading for like a state standardized test or if they're taking the ACT or whatever, try to explain them. Like you're reading this for one purpose, like it is to answer these multiple choice questions. I try to explain to them that, like this is what you're, this is the work you're going to be doing for this, this is the reading work that you need to be doing. So I like to call that out. I don't know if you do. Do you do that at the elementary level?
Speaker 2:normally, yes, and it sounds a little bit different normally. Normally we'll say things like on the test you have to prove to somebody else that you know a lot about reading and writing, and so that's your only job is to show what you know to somebody who doesn't know you.
Speaker 1:I love that you say that, because that is. I think that is important. It's like I know, you know this because we did this and you talked to me and I see these things, but now you've got to prove it to somebody outside of this room.
Speaker 1:That's going to kind of tie into a piece that we get into later about changing that mindset, of telling kids you got this, I know you got this. Yeah, we both kind of talk about another piece of that. Preparation is teaching kids how to take the test, so like navigating the actual physical format of it. And I know like at secondary level, one class period, maybe two, on this, and I know Stephanie's going to be like, oh, that's not going to work in elementary, but at this point of the game your kids should know what to expect and what this looks like. Now, if you're in a state like I know in Missouri, from eighth grade to ninth grade the platforms change. So you might, in ninth grade, have to give a little bit more information on how this test will look different than the one they've taken third, fourth, fifth, sixth, whatever.
Speaker 1:But for the most, part you do not need to spend a whole lot of time on this, but it is important to point out to them because they might have to drag and drop or some of those things. Stephanie, totally different conversation.
Speaker 2:I just like when I read Natalie's notes, I literally laughed out loud because I thought, yeah, high school folks, you get to spend one day because elementary has spent months teaching getting kids ready for how to navigate the system, and especially if it's an online system. I'll never forget when Missouri went from paper pencil to the online format and the learning curve that had to happen there. So we're talking things like can your kids type? Do they know how to navigate a keyboard correctly? And that sounds silly in today's day and age, but it's really not, because a lot of kids are using devices that like an iPad, that doesn't have a physical keyboard, type of thing. But oh, you're right.
Speaker 1:Like you're not just teaching content now, you are teaching keyboarding skills, and I don't even know if I can teach keyboarding skills.
Speaker 2:Even like how are they going to log into this system? Because a lot of that's like single sign-on type things. They have to have different little cards and things to get them logged in each time. How to navigate the platform, so how they go from when they're done to answering one question. How do they get to the next question? How do they scroll down? Because, again, a lot of kids haven't had to like use a mouse or something to scroll down to make sure that they answer all of the questions, or how do they find where all the tools are? We have taught them to use sticky notes. Where are the sticky notes? How do you take notes? How do you annotate it? We it takes a long, like weeks, to get kids enough practice to where on that day of taking the test.
Speaker 1:That isn't the thing that gets in the way of them being able to do well and feel confident, and so I think it's too important that, like, not only are you teaching it to them, but then you give them time to practice doing it before they get to that test, because you don't want them to have multiple hard things going on, and so you want, and then you also want them to be confident in just that as a user of of the platform. Yes, another thing that I would say really needs to happen as far, yes, another thing that I would say really needs to happen is, if you're not doing this as a teacher, you need to study the test yourself. What is the test asking your kids to do? Go in and take a test, either. Print one off and do the physical stuff so you can see the content. Take it so that you can understand the navigating of the format.
Speaker 1:I know one time I tried to look at one and it was like a split screen where the questions were on one side and the passage was on the other, and it took me a minute to figure it out. And then I missed a question. I couldn't understand why. I was like why did I not get a hundred? Because I didn't scroll down far enough to find the part B of the answer. Like, so it is important to go in and take that test yourself and see, like what is it asking? And I think that also, even like I had mentioned, if you have the ability to take grade level below you and see, like what, what does your test look like, so that you can anticipate those changes and call those out for kids, that is a huge piece of the puzzle because it also tells you what you should be focusing on.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I do want to clarify for those listening. We're not saying like break laws and look at what you're not supposed to look at. We mean look at the release items or the student version that's released for people to be able to use. Those are the ones that we mean like look at and be familiar with, so that you can help your kids be familiar with it. Take advantage of the resources that your state provides for you to help your kids be prepared. Use them to your advantage.
Speaker 1:Stephanie and I are both more ELA based. I mean not that we don't dabble a little bit in other subject areas, but we know that the two biggest tests are ELA and math and there are typical things that you're going to see tested, and so we always see questions about theme and central idea and it'll be appropriate to that grade level and that text. They're always asking something about like the author's techniques to achieve a purpose of some sort. They're looking at interpreting the meaning of words and phrases always on there right. And then another piece of the puzzle is like those supporting ideas, the key details, and so it's like, but it's actually it's going to say like what's the theme? And then it's going to ask you, so like you're gonna have to answer that question, and then you're also going to have to say like here's the key details from the text that tell me this.
Speaker 1:And then the last one is probably the hardest, and it is that these tests expect kids to be reading on grade level independently. I just want to kind of put a I don't know a comment out there that like if your kids are not reading on grade level, they're going to struggle with this test. It is going to be hard. There is nothing you can do in a two week period that's going to fix that reading level. That's something that has to be taking place every single day in your classroom, that you need to be working on, and we know statistically that if kids are reading on grade level, they are most likely going to pass the test when they're in there taking it. These are the things that they're going to be looking for, but it is super important that your kids are reading independently every day and building them to grade level.
Speaker 2:And something that I, in my work with teachers, encourage them to do is periodically expose kids who are even below grade level to grade level texts that they're going to have to figure out and navigate on their own, with some support from you. But they have to go through a process to teach them how they can approach those texts that are a grade level, two grade levels higher than them, so they don't just sit there and they're completely overwhelmed or they just start clicking things because we don't want that, we. We don't want either situation. Teach them some skills that will help them approach a text at that's grade level so they feel like they can do something when they get to that.
Speaker 1:So I love that you say that, because I think that kind of gets us into the next piece of our conversation, and that is you know, you might have kids who are reading below grade level, but they're still expected to do this work Right. And I'm going to I'm going to shift things. Sorry, stephanie, we know that all stories have characters Right. So even if that kid's reading below grade level, when I think about what are some fiction techniques or strategies that I could really hit on in this two week boot camp, I'm going to tell my kids figure out who the characters are.
Speaker 1:The characters are going to be important. They're going to ask you a question about the characters. Most of your kids, even if they're reading below grade level, they can find the character and then from there you can say like, okay, can you figure out what perspective? I don't know, this might be a little bit different at elementary, but at elementary but at secondary it's not really necessarily asking like, is it first person or third person? They're going to. You do need to understand that, but they're going to ask you more, like is it being told from a young kid's perspective and an adolescent? So it's a little bit more about their life experience? Oh, it's being told from a mom, or because they're going to ask you a question that will tie into that Is that similar in elementary?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not. Like, is this story told from the first person or the third person? It's. Is this told from the kid's perspective or the adult's perspective? So, and it'll ask how do you know? And those are some of the questions that are those constructed responses that kids have to have the evidence to back up. Like I know, this is in third person because this sentence they use this phrase that is common of being in third person.
Speaker 1:At that secondary level. They even take it to another level and they're like, why is it important? Like, why is it important that it's told from this child's perspective? Or how would it be different if it was told from the mom? So you have to know those nuances in order to be able to kind of then interpret what that or infer or whatever that next, or analyze what their purpose is. So in those fiction, if you really focus on getting kids to pay attention to character interactions, so how, like, if there's a mom and a son, how are they interacting? Are they like yelling at each other? Are they softly speaking? Are they not speaking? Are they so looking at their actions, their dialogue, what they're thinking, what they're saying? So again, these are things kids could do.
Speaker 2:And how those interactions can change across a story that's a big one for elementary. So it's like this character. This character liked each other as the beginning. In the middle they didn't. How was that interaction resolved at the end? Or, but it is ultimately character interactions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and those are things that you could still tell kids, like even if you don't understand the text completely, like, could you look for ways? Like could you look for these things? We think about setting. If in a text that they give you, if there's, if they describe the setting, they're probably going to ask a question about it and it's probably important if they've just nonchalantly said something, fine, but you want kids to pay attention Like, are they going into detail about the setting? I know one passage I've read was like it was in a rural community set back in a long time ago, and it really the theme of the piece was about moving away and leaving your family and so that setting was important because they were isolated and they couldn't talk to other people, because it was in like the twenties or whatever. So that tied into that theme of independently going and leaving, everything that you know. So it's important to pay attention to that setting if they do describe it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one of the things that I think is just really important for our kids to know, even at the element for fiction, is if you look at the characters, you look at the setting, those two things are the most important thing that are going to help you figure out what the theme is. And almost every test is going to ask questions about theme. So that's you can answer a lot of questions If you can figure out the characters, you can figure out the setting. Kind of put those things together you can probably do pretty good on figuring out what the theme is.
Speaker 1:Yes, so that you know when we think about what are some high leverage like what am I going to focus on? If I've got to do this Fiction, focus on those things. If we shift a little bit to nonfiction, we're going to be looking at those as well. But I know sometimes nonfiction is kind of hard to read and I recently read this. I kind of read the book. In other words, carrie's going to be super proud because on my flight I did listen to this book. She recommended that. I told her I didn't have time, but it's called like Outsmart your Brain by Daniel Wilmingham. Wilmingham, yes, and he's a doctor Like he's apparently really smart right.
Speaker 1:This chapter was about test taking and one of the things that it talked about was looking at, like, I say, the genre or whatever, but knowing the content or the subject area and thinking like that. So we teach kids like think like a scientist when you're reading this, or think like a historian. So the example he gives in this text is like when we told somebody to think like a burglar versus think like a home buyer, they picked up on different pieces of the story and so when you can like, he's saying that this is like a brain technique, right. So if you can tell your kids, hey, look at this piece, is it science-based, is it history-based, is it what is it based? And then think like that type of person, it helps them with that reading.
Speaker 2:Right, because it helps them. We teach them about genre, especially in elementary. We do a lot about introduction of genre and so we teach them the key elements of different genres and if they can think and bring that forward that helps get them ready to approach the text. So they will notice some of those techniques that help them identify the big things that um in within the story.
Speaker 1:So I also think of for us in elementary it's the text features section are a big deal and at the elementary level, which I know they are at the secondary level but it gets into a little more in-depth type of part of it that well so it's interesting you say that, because when I go back and I think about any of the non-fiction texts that I've seen in a lot of state standardized tests, there's not a lot of text features like as far as like there are, but there aren't like graphs or pictures that are attached and it almost as like there are, but there aren't like graphs or pictures that are attached and it almost sounds like there are at that elementary level.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's more like the headings, the subtitles, those kinds of things that help kids navigate the piece itself. It's those kinds of things that come up that kids really need to know how to use to to their advantage.
Speaker 1:In that, like if you can kind of just have them look at that nonfiction piece and be like, oh, this is a science piece, this is what I know about science.
Speaker 1:Like now I'm going to start reading it. It just kind of helps shift their brain and get them ready or primed in order to do some of that work. And another like one strategy that I like to focus on with kids is a lot of times nonfiction texts are hard right and they don't know a lot about the information. And so if they can go through the text and look for words that are that might seem important and the word choice that the author is using, so what seems important, what words are repeated, what has strong connotations like positive or negative, all of those things are going to help you find, like, the main idea and maybe even lead into the purpose of the piece. And so if you're reading a historical piece and you start seeing things like war and you know, like you're seeing all these words, you're like, oh, this is what this is, the main idea is about war or something. So even those kids who are reading below grade level, if they can pick out some of those words, they at least can be in the ballpark.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's where, for elementary, some of the text features that will come out that they will still see are like in those non-fiction texts, are the bolded words, or they'll see the words that are italicized and again the headings, because those, those are the things that kids can look at and study and look for repeated words. Or they can look at the bold print and know, oh, this word I need to spend a little more time on, or this word italicized, that me, it has some kind of really big meaning to the story and I need to figure this word out a little bit more in the non-fiction, beyond some of those things that, uh, if there are illustrations, using the illustrations, because they will sometimes have like a caption Also, kind of ties into that like what's the purpose behind this?
Speaker 1:Like why did the author do this? Oh, it must be important. It has to tie into the main idea. So, like it all kind of ties together to lead you in the right direction.
Speaker 1:Right, I know that secondary, we see this a lot and it's looking like teaching kids to focus on words that shift or connections, and so if at the beginning it's this is how things are, but then you start seeing words like, but however, otherwise, on the other hand, any of those shift words that would say this is what the author thought, but they changed. That's important because a lot of times if a kid just reads the first part of a passage and they go to try to answer questions but they didn't read the rest of it, they may miss the main idea. Or it's like why did they start with all these positive things and then end with these negative things? And there was a reason for it, there was a purpose behind it. And so those shift words or those connecting words, like they did this, and also that that's important to kind of focus in on these types of tasks.
Speaker 2:Yes, Are most of the words positive, are most of the words negative? So then you, when it asks author's purpose is that they're trying to convince you this is good or they're trying to convince you this is bad? Because in elementary it's kind of one of those two things that the elementary level, like one of the biggest things that I've already hinted at it, is. You have to actually teach the kids how to take a test what, what are the test taking strategies Like? You mark out the most obvious wrong answers. You read the questions first. You make sure that you read all of the directions. That the framework SQ3R, where you're literally teaching kids how to survey a text, how to take the headings and make it a question, so that you're getting your brain ready for it. We have to teach that to kids in elementary so that they're ready to approach a test in a way that helps them feel confident. That helps them feel confident. Also, stamina practice is a big deal in elementary to help them sit through a test that's an hour or more long.
Speaker 1:So I love that you kind of mentioned that, because I would have never thought I had a secondary level. Like there's just an expectation that comes when you have 10th graders. Like you've taken this test enough, you know you've got to sit there and be quiet. Like you know how to take a test. The fact that you have to teach them again you can't do it in a day. Like you almost have to practice what it means to sit quiet for that long.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's why I said like the disclaimer at the beginning is if your kids are reading and writing a lot every day, then they're going to be ready for prove that they can read and write.
Speaker 1:these are other layers that come in, that if we haven't taught them how to sit, still it's going to be really hard for them to sustain that mental capacity to get to the end of the test to prove whether or not they can or can't do it Right. We're going to kind of shift to our last little segment here and it is, I think, that it's probably one of the most important out of all of this and when. I think Stephanie and I both went to the same doctoral program and I don't know if you were ever posed this question, but we were posed the question of what do you teach? And as a secondary teacher I was like I teach English. It was easy, right, I teach language arts. And our, my, our professor looked at us and she was like no, you teach human beings.
Speaker 2:And I was like oh my.
Speaker 1:God, like it broke my heart because I was like you're right, I do teach people, I teach children. I don't teach language arts. I think that that's probably the most important thing to take from all of this is that we need to remind ourselves and our kids that, yes, this test is important, but they and also that they are being judged Like. It's okay to be honest with your kids that people judge us by our scores and they do all of these things, but it doesn't define you. It is not going to determine whether you will or will not be a success. But figuring out the best way to explain that to your kids is also part of the test taking.
Speaker 2:Right. And also, it's not going to change how I, as the teacher, view you or value you. That how you perform on this test isn't going to change that. That's part of I think that we teach humans is how you perform, as how you perform as long as you did your best. That's all I can ask of you and that's all I expect.
Speaker 1:So I know that with my kids, I literally would tell them I'm like you've got this.
Speaker 1:Like we have been doing this every day since August. You have been reading, you've been writing, you've been talking about books and stories and all these things. You have this you are doing the work of a 10th grader or you're doing the work of a ninth grader, and we've been doing it all year. And so I think, being their cheerleader and telling them, like you've been doing this every single day, tomorrow's just another day. You're going to do the same work. It's no different than what you've been doing every single day. Because I think when we put it on this pedestal and it seems like this unreachable goal, like it's the test, then it freaks kids out and they are anxiety driven and they can't sleep at night, or they're worried that they're going to upset their teacher, or they go in with this attitude of like I can't do it anyway, so I'm not even going to try Like we get lots of spectrums of where they fall. I think that telling your kids you've got this is important.
Speaker 2:It goes a long way. Helping kids feel like you've set them up for success. That's what we've been working for all year long. That's also why, like earlier when I said, yes, we've been doing this all year long. It's now just time for you to prove it to somebody else who doesn't know you. That's all your job is.
Speaker 1:Another piece of this is to really focus on growth and not necessarily on proficiency. And I say that because, like, yes, proficiency is important, we want all kids to be on grade level, but you need to also celebrate like there, we know this as educators that there are kids that aren't ever going to be proficient Like they're. They have disabilities that are going to prohibit that, or circumstances that are outside of our control. That doesn't mean we don't want to celebrate. We're not just going to just celebrate the kids who got proficient, Like that kid who who went up five points.
Speaker 1:They went up five points. That's growth. The kid who jumped from below basic to basic they moved, like that's awesome, that is amazing. And so making sure that we're focusing on that and not just on how many kids hit proficiency, and we need to be thinking about what's that growth that our kids are having. Because if a kid comes in four grade levels below but they end up testing right below proficiency but they were four grade levels below in reading, it's huge. Like I'm going to give that kid a bigger high five than the kid who stayed proficient all year long. And so I think that that's important to really focus on growth and not proficiency.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is definitely at the elementary level, but that, I think, leads into the kind of final point of this that we wanted to make, which was our attitude about the test makes a big difference on the student's attitude towards the test. So the energy we bring, the things that we say about the purpose of the test if it's good, it's bad, it's stupid that we have to do this, or whatever. Whatever we say, that's how the kids are going to take it and that's how they're going to perform for us, so, if we don't take it as something that's an exciting opportunity to prove all the things you've learned at this school here versus this is just something that some random person that doesn't know us is making you do it.
Speaker 1:That classroom versus the other classroom the scores are most likely going to be different, or even that you kind of gave two like this nonchalant versus this positive. But then there's also that scare them to death mentality also Like if you don't do well, like that attitude is not a good attitude either. Finding out a way to communicate the importance of the test to your kids without scaring them.
Speaker 2:We don't want classrooms of crying kids.
Speaker 1:Just to kind of recap, we went over what are some of those strategies that you could utilize in your classroom. Hopefully some of these will be helpful. I recently wrote a blog that ties into this, so if you need to see some of them in writing, we have that available. You can check out our website Also. Really thinking about that mindset and making sure that you're putting giving kids the right attitude about the test. So I hope these insights help you navigate your educational journey more clearly and confidently. Please feel free to share your thoughts or experiences. We'd love to hear from you and, if you found today's episode valuable, consider sharing it with a colleague who might benefit from this message. Be sure to tune in weekly to be a part of our latest discussions in education. We like to talk about hot topics, so who knows what's going to be on the agenda next? Thank you for joining us on the Compass PD podcast. Remember, at Compass PD, we believe that every educator has the power to inspire, change and transform student learning. Stay focused, stay inspired and keep making a difference.