.jpg)
Compass PD Podcast with Dr. Carrie Hepburn
Compass PD Podcast with Dr. Carrie Hepburn
Episode 78: Grace, Growth & Grit – Encouragement for Instructional Leaders
In this uplifting episode of the Compass PD Podcast, Dr. Carrie Hepburn is joined by Dr. Declan Fitzpatrick and Dr. Elizabeth Malloy—two leaders passionate about keeping instruction at the forefront of their work. With honesty and heart, they share what it looks like to lead learning while navigating the realities of school leadership. From 30-second feedback loops to shared calendars and grace-filled mindsets, this episode is full of encouragement and real-world strategies. Whether you’re just stepping into leadership or are a seasoned admin, this conversation will reignite your commitment to instructional leadership and remind you—you’re making a difference every single day.
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Compass PD podcast, where we dive into evidence-based practices and research-driven strategies that empower educators and leaders to make a lasting impact. That empower educators and leaders to make a lasting impact. I'm Dr Keri Hepburn, your podcast host today, and I am alongside some really great friends and colleagues Dr Declan Fitzpatrick and Dr Elizabeth Malloy. Hi Declan, hi Liz, hello. How are you guys today?
Speaker 2:Doing pretty well today, thank you.
Speaker 1:Doing good. It's so great to have you. Well, I am really excited because we're going to be exploring instructional leadership at the district level. I wanted to bring in Declan and Liz, or Elizabeth, do you prefer. I know her as Liz, liz, Liz is good.
Speaker 1:Okay, I wanted to bring Declan and Liz on today because they are both really strong instructional leaders. They're people that I have witnessed from the sidelines and been a participant in the work that they've done for decades and have always been in awe by the people that they are and their passion for education. So back in the day, both of them have served as coaches, curriculum writers, curriculum leaders, and now they are in administration in their buildings. We know that administrators are pulled in so many directions and I wanted to talk with them because their instructional leadership is the heart of who they are. But I'm also curious about how they balance that day-to-day with providing instructional leadership and the balance of the demands that are placed on them as well. So this is going to be really interesting because Liz has been in administration for nearly a decade nine years right now and Declan is finishing up his first year. So I believe that they both are going to bring different ideas and perspectives to the conversation, while holding onto their deep roots of being strong instructional leaders.
Speaker 1:So are you ready to get started? I'm ready, awesome. So here's my first. Here's my first question. Instructional leadership is often cited as the most critical role of a school leader, but in reality, it can be the hardest to prioritize. How do you make space for it in the chaos of the day today?
Speaker 2:well I I feel like I am still really struggling with this element that during the whole interview process of becoming an assistant principal, everybody was very, very interested in my qualifications in instructional leadership and then, as soon as the job started, as soon as students showed up on day one, it became very clear that there were no structures built into my role that helped me prioritize instructional leadership.
Speaker 2:I'm nine months into the job and I'm still feeling the cost every day of having a reactive mode. Like I made a joke the other day, I stepped out into the foyer of my office and I looked at the two office professionals there there and I said I could go back into my office now and try to get something done, or I can stand here and breathe and the next thing will happen before I really need to do anything else. And they laughed at me. But that's really what the job feels like, and so I am struggling every day. I feel like I'm constantly pulled to support students and connect with families and show teachers, be visible for teachers and show my support for them out in the hallway or in the classrooms when something's happening, and that's not always an instructional conversation, and so I'm really I'm struggling with having the time to meet with teachers individually and be at all the PLC meetings and even just to protect time for our instructional leadership team. That meeting itself gets swamped by other issues frequently.
Speaker 3:And I think to your first point. I know, declan, you said that you are still trying to figure that out and nine years in, I am too sometimes, and so, like I shared, today was a day where my to-do list went to the wayside, and I'll try that again tomorrow. But there are times where you just have to be reactive, based on what's happening in the building. I think one of the things that I've kind of learned over the course of time is, you know, making a schedule for myself but knowing that it's flexible. But if there are parts of my is, you know, making a schedule for myself but knowing that it's flexible, but if there are parts of my schedule that I know I need to get to that, I say to my team like hey, I've got to turn my walkie down at this time, or I, you know I need 15 minutes and it's hard, but if you build that time in with each other, you just like make it happen. And it's oftentimes like hey, I need somebody to tag me out for five minutes and then I will come back to this, and so I think, give yourself some grace, because you will find a balance. It might take a bit, and each year is different and sometimes each day and week and month is different, but give yourself the grace, you'll get there. You are still probably taking in so much new learning, like we all do, and so that is can be overloading as well.
Speaker 3:I do think that I try really hard and my team does too. We have a we have a weekly PLC meeting and we make sure that we schedule that before the school day starts so that we have minimal interruption Not that there isn't sometimes, because things happen before school day all the time, but just try to. It helped us protect that time a little better. Doing it before the day and I think intentionally making time on my calendar for a 30 second feedback is important and I really just jot things on post-its and I keep a little calendar. My whole team. We have a shared calendar just for those 30 second feedbacks and we give ourselves, you know, a week or two to get through a grade level and then we rotate. That has probably been one of the best things to like. Keep me accountable to making sure that I'm still prioritizing that instructional leadership.
Speaker 2:Can you talk a little bit more about what your 36 second feedback commitment is? What are you doing there?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's actually. I used to be a part of MLDS and I actually am part of like a leadership academy in my district right now, and so it's really about going into a classroom and you are just, you know, taking some time to see the great things that are going on and when, when you leave, or however you want to do it, like I just leave a post-it and it's like, hey, thanks for letting me in your classroom today. You know, and I say you know, I try to pick out a teaching point or something they did and then the effect of it. So like when you prompted the students with this critical thinking and question, it encouraged math discourse and the students really became engaged in the content. And so it's just me kind of giving a tip, or you know something positive that I saw happen in their room that tells them like, hey, great job, and the kids are learning.
Speaker 3:We try to really focus on things that we have done professional development on so that it's relevant to them. It is something that you know at one point they were learning or they're still trying to take a risk, to try, and so we try to provide it on something that we know we've covered, so that it's like a hey, great, I see you implementing this in your classroom and it's working out well and you know those dividends are paying off for your kids and that's really I mean. It's as simple as that. It takes it's a 30 second visit and it's a 30 second post-it. That's awesome. Yeah, you can. I would say you can. There are lots of different models out there that you can use to to follow.
Speaker 1:Sorry, Carrie. No, I was just curious. Do you keep track of that?
Speaker 3:Um, just like we do when we're with students that we keep track of the of the notes and the data that we're collecting so that we don't lose that thinking yes. So, yes, I, you know, when I first started doing it, I needed some more like, almost like sentence frames for myself, because I didn't want to. You know, if I'm going into all of second grade math, I don't want to leave the same comment, and so I, you know, had just had like a generated list to help myself just make sure that I was not providing the same feedback to everyone, because they are different. And so, yeah, I just keep track of it on a Google form. It's nothing fancy, but, yeah, just try to keep myself organized in that way, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's so great. Well, as you're talking, it's reminding me of when we go work in school districts and we're helping them kind of build their plan for professional development. We will create like learning progressions and like the. You know, step one might be getting the tools or the resources and the buy-in. And then step two, they start to like navigate using those tools. Step three, like they're using them, you know, artfully, those that professional learning, artfully and skillfully you'll start to see them do some responsive teaching and small groups. So they start to. And then step four is like at that mastery level. So we do that and I'm just sitting here thinking about how we could start helping coach our principals to use that with this really great idea of like a 30 second feedback, just like. Here you are, I noticed that you're doing that. That is great. You're on the chart and you know if you want to give them a tip of what their next thing could be like, your next thing could be this. So that's really cool.
Speaker 1:A lot easier than me trying to think of sentence stems Well, and I think it too.
Speaker 3:Like you know, taking risks is difficult sometimes when you want to keep this little environment that you've like curated perfectly, and so it's a way to to, like you know, tell them like your risks are paying off, like your kids are learning and growing so much from it, and so it's like, because you did this, then like this happened, and so that is, it's really powerful, I love that.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for sharing. Okay, so you both have had experiences as coaches and curriculum designers before becoming administrators. How does that past work shape the way you lead instructionally now?
Speaker 2:I think my first answer to that question is that I, because I am old and I've been doing this work for a long time I've been working in schools and working in curriculum work for 20 years. It's just now this is my first year being an assistant principal I really do trust the process and trust the teachers. I can see immediately when I'm having a conversation with the teacher, if I'm saying I have this idea for you, why don't you try to do this thing? You can see them already sort of backing away from that. But if you trust your coaching training and say so, what are the things that you're noticing in your work and that you you know what I some hunches that you already have about how you might tackle that problem. They start identifying the resources they already have and start already planning for what they already know how to do, how to do and and then it's much.
Speaker 2:It's a much more generative conversation to say and maybe have you thought about this other thing and and that I think it took me years to learn how to have those conversations with teachers. When I was, my focus was on professional development and implementing curriculum and working with teachers, and now as a as a principal. That's really shaped the way that I have both evaluative conversations and just problem-solving conversations with teachers, because I know how much the teachers appreciate feeling like they were asked to bring their resources to the table and by the end of that conversation they felt more competent and more more, rather than being felt like, well, I got help, so maybe that will solve my problem.
Speaker 2:They felt like, hey, that conversation helped me help myself and now I feel more equipped to do more of that in my classroom.
Speaker 3:I Declan, I 100% agree with everything you said, and I think being a coach has you know for eight years. It does take a little bit of time to get your bearings around that. How do I coach an adult in a supportive but constructive way that is meeting their needs is probably one of the best things that ever happened to me before I became an administrator. I use my coaching strategies daily and just the nuances of all the things that you do as an administrator I can't imagine. Sometimes I can't imagine what my conversations of feedback would have been about instruction if I wasn't a coach, because you know you spend so much time supporting teachers as a coach, and so it is a very natural transition. And in evaluation conversation, in a problem solving conversation about a student or a new curriculum or whatever it may be, I mean it's definitely helped with that instructional feedback and when teachers are implementing new things, I feel like it gives me a leg up on somebody who hasn't had that experience, because you know it there is can be a fine line when you're talking with teachers and wanting to support them, and as a coach, you have to learn the how can I help you and what supports can I provide you and so you use that daily to make sure teachers are kind of moving forward in the way that is comfortable for them.
Speaker 3:And when I think about like the curriculum aspect of it, I think that having the time and leading people through on you know when you're looking at standards and doing backwards design and you're looking at a standard and you need to write assessments practicing that over and over with millions of standards also is still something like when I first started coaching. We were unwrapping all the standards. We are back to refreshing our PLCs in my district right now and still doing that work and it's you know people always make jokes, oh, we got to unwrap the standard. But it's such a powerful conversation and I feel when I'm giving professional development in that area, it is an area of ease because as a coach I did it all the time and so I. It has allowed me to be very comfortable with some parts of the job that maybe isn't so comfortable for other people because I spent so much time as a coach doing it.
Speaker 2:I also think that my experience in curriculum work really convinced me that good instruction is good instruction. I know assistant principals who will say things like you know, I can't work with the CTE department because they just don't have any background in that area. Or another person might say I can't work with social studies, I just don't have.
Speaker 2:I don't have any background in that area and there, really, if a principal needs me to work with the department, there isn't a subject area that I would be nervous about working with because good instruction is good instruction and I'm I'm not. I am confident that I've seen that play out, and in many different, in every subject area. Um, you know that, that world language instruction. I may not understand the language that your target language, that you're working in, but I can tell whether their students are engaged and whether they're producing language on their own and I can tell what structures you put in place to make that work in your classroom. And there's just nothing intimidating about being confident that if I know what good instruction is in one subject area, I will recognize those elements in other subject areas and it's not an obstacle.
Speaker 3:I agree it kind of transcends all of it.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I think there's like a certain design of learning where you see like a progression of learning and that looks the same in all content areas and those instructional strategies are transferable, those techniques that you learn through unpacking standards and writing curriculum. It's easy to spot, even if it's not something that you are an expert in. So I think it's. I do think sometimes it's interesting because I can't imagine being an instructional leader and not having that background and how hard it would be. It has to feel like a challenge that it's either one way or another way. But I feel like when you have that knowledge you can see there are different paths to the same outcome.
Speaker 2:I cannot imagine trying to be a building leader the way that I am now and having to go through the same learning experiences I went through working in curriculum. It happened to me and I've seen it happen to many other people who move into curriculum. The very first thing I thought I was supposed to do was go tell people all the things I did in my classroom. When people said you're really good at that, why don't you become a curriculum person or an instructional coach? And I've seen that happen to so many other people and I can't imagine trying to be a building leader and feeling like my job is to try to replicate myself, because that's obviously it's a very troublesome path to go down when you start trying to make people be like you.
Speaker 1:Certainly it is a challenge. That's why I do still, to this day, talk about. I was hired in curriculum in April and my person the person who was going to be my boss sent me literally six books and said have these read before you show up on July 1st. And they were all of the Wiggins. I bought them personally later because I love them so much. It's all my doctoral work. I've read every single Wiggins and McTighe book that has ever been written, and Stiggins and Ainsworth and anyone that was in that realm. It's like reading dry toast but it is, you know, central. It is so powerful, yeah, it's so powerful.
Speaker 1:It is so relevant, and I feel like we are sometimes moving in different directions, but you get pulled on, keep pulling them back, don't we? Well, I just want to say thank you so much because this was such a really powerful episode. I think that we're all trying to hear the magic thing that's going to make us strong instructional leaders, and if you would give us, like, the tips on all the things that we have to do that's going to allow us to accomplish those things, and both of you were very real that there's not a one size fits all and every single day it looks a little bit different, and I think hearing from people who are strong instructional leaders, like both of you, that's going to be really empowering for them. I think they'll walk away thinking it's okay, that this is a journey right now, and that some days are going to be really strong and I'm going to have rocked it, and then other days, the building's like almost literally in chaos and we're just trying to put out fires and keep everyone safe.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's literally put out fires.
Speaker 3:Accurate, that's so true.
Speaker 1:We don't have to tell stories or anything about it Not saying anything else.
Speaker 1:That's hilarious, but I am so thankful that both of you joined us and I know that people are going to be asking to hear more from both of you, because principals are looking, administrators are looking for real people and they want to hear, like, what are some ideas that you've got that can be beneficial for me? So I want to say to everyone feel free to share your thoughts or experiences. We would love to hear from you and if you found today's episode valuable, consider sharing it with a colleague who might benefit from this message. Thanks for joining us on the Compass PD podcast, declan and Liz. We really appreciate you. So thank you so much. And I want to just say remember, at Compass PD, we believe that every educator has the power to inspire, change and transform student learning. Stay focused, stay inspired and keep making a difference.