Ep. 34 - The String Revolution: Materials Science Meets Archery

What makes a premium bowstring truly premium? In this deep dive with Mark Pederson, founder of Bloodline Fiber, we uncover the fascinating technology and engineering principles behind today's most advanced bowstring materials.

Mark's journey from missionary kid in Venezuela to fiber engineering specialist provides the perfect backdrop for understanding how Bloodline came to be. Drawing inspiration from his grandfather's archery prowess and his grandmother's favorite hymn "Power in the Blood," Mark combined his family heritage with his professional expertise in high-performance rope design to create something revolutionary in the archery world.

We explore the science behind Bloodline's proprietary fiber coatings that protect against abrasion, UV damage, moisture, and temperature fluctuations without requiring any maintenance. This zero-maintenance approach solves one of archery's biggest challenges - bowstring care and longevity. Traditional strings demand regular waxing and attention, while Bloodline materials simply perform, shot after shot.

The conversation takes us through the technical aspects of string building, examining why Revelation 99 (Rev99) has become our go-to material for compound bow strings due to its exceptional stability. Unlike other materials that require different strand counts based on color, Bloodline maintains consistent diameter across all colors, allowing for predictable, repeatable building results.

Perhaps most illuminating is our discussion of serving technology, where Mark explains how their BOA serving creates a "constricting grip" around strings, preventing the dreaded serving separation even after thousands of shots. This attention to detail extends to their newer innovations like Fast Brass speed nocks, designed with both performance and builder ergonomics in mind.

Whether you're a competitive archer seeking performance advantages, a bowhunter looking for reliability, or simply fascinated by materials science, this conversation reveals how faith, family heritage, and engineering excellence combine to elevate the archery experience through better string technology.

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Transcript

Introducing Bloodline Fiber

Speaker 1 1:19

Okay, here we go. Bowtrader podcast number. Who cares? We got the famous Mark Peterson from Bloodline Bow Fibers or String Fibers.

Speaker 2 1:36

Bow Fibers, what?

Speaker 1 1:37

the heck. I just call you Bloodline. What is it, Mark? Tell the people what you got.

Speaker 3 1:41

Bloodline. What is it, mark? Tell the people what you got. So our website is Bloodline Fiber. We're like a premium archery materials company so we're really focused on, you know, the fibers that go into a bowstring, but with our engineering background kind of moving into other products as well.

Speaker 1 1:57

Okay, All right, Well, cool deal. Well, you know we talked a little bit before we got started, but tell us a story about how you guys got going in this kind of what your beliefs are as a company, what you're after, and then we'll share a little bit about why we use Bloodline materials. So a lot of people don't know this. So this is the Bowtrader podcast, and Bowtrader is a is a uh, a retail store here in Georgia. Uh, we also have a, a um, an e-commerce side of our business, Uh, so a lot of you guys are listening. You've never actually been into our store, but you've ordered something from us on our, on our website, or um have interacted with us in some way.

Speaker 1 2:41

Well, we also have a sister company that's called Bison String Co, and that company is we manufacture premium bow strings and that's how we got connected with Mark. So I don't own that company. There's a firewall between Bow Treader and Bison String Co. The majority of the strings are actually built here at this location, at the retail store, but it's not bow shop employees that do it, the employees that work on the strings. They don't come out and work with customers in the store. They don't come out and you know, they don't set up bows or anything like that. They're here to build strings. That's what they do, that's what they've been trained to do, that's what they enjoy doing, or at least they tell us they enjoy doing it. And, um, yeah, so that's, that's kind of how. That's, that's how we're structured and how this works for us. But tell us, tell us your story.

Speaker 3 3:44

Tell us the bloodline story, how you came up with the name, the whole spiel? Yeah, so the name is kind of a lot of it has to do with our family history. I grew up as a missionary kid down in Venezuela until I was 10. And my grandpa was a pastor in Wisconsin and he was big in archery, somewhat you know, famous in his area for his ability to shoot a recurve bow very accurately, and so part of the name Bloodline is like it's in our blood, archery's in our blood. Even though I didn't get to, you know, hang out with my grandpa a ton because I was living in another country, uh, it's uh kind of passed, been passed down, just archery in general. And then, uh, his wife, my grandma, played, uh, played the piano in the churches and uh, she would always sing this song uh, power in the blood. Okay, so that's where our tagline comes from. Power in the blood is from an old hymn yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm familiar with it. So that's, uh, that's a little bit in the naming.

Speaker 3 4:57

Um, if we fast forward, since, you know, being a missionary kid in venezuela, I moved back to northern Minnesota and, you know, got into engineering. I went to engineering in Michigan Tech, so, and then I got my master's at University of North Dakota. So kind of a Midwest guy Grew up hunting in high school a bunch, uh. Kind of a midwest guy grew up hunting in high school a bunch, uh. But then, you know, right, as I graduated uh from und, the, there was a big, uh big crash in the market and a lot of uh engineers. It was hard to find a job in the engineering field, so I ended up going all the way to the west coast and started a position at a high performance rope company. So I learned quite a bit about different fibers and designed a lot of different ropes that are, you know, used all across the world.

Speaker 1 5:55

So it would without, without going into a lot of detail about you know the company we were working for or anything like that. What were those? What were those ropes used for that you kind of were cutting your teeth on?

Speaker 3 6:06

so there's a lot of stuff that's offshore, uh, commercial marine, so like tugboats, those kind of things, uh, oil tankers, okay, and then a lot, of, a lot of mining industry and then arborist ropes uh, a few different military rope products I worked on got it so it was a really cool opportunity.

Speaker 3 6:30

I learned about all different kinds of fibers and and built some really good connections with fiber suppliers. And some of the biggest connections that I made and it wasn't necessarily within our company but, uh, phd chemical engineers that could, you know, spend a little extra time for someone that they, they know, uh, and help, you know, give input on a good, good product on the coding side of fibers. So that was after I've left that road company. That was helpful. Uh, getting in touch with some so after I've left that road company, that was helpful. Getting in touch with some different contacts and being able to develop a really good coating that's going to protect a fiber and help it last quite a bit longer. That was kind of.

Speaker 3 7:15

Our goal is the performance behind the coating that goes on the fiber so you're protecting it from abrasion. Resistance is one of the big ones, but also UV protection. Sunlight breaks down a lot of these fibers over time. Moisture resistance so being hydrophobic, so kicking out moisture so your strings don't get heavy that's another one. Your accuracy will change as the weight of the string changes due to moisture and then also you know different temperatures. We want to to have a coating that isn't going to change its physical properties very much, uh, at different temperatures, down so way below zero and then up to 140 f. We stay very consistent with our coatings and adhesion is another big key. We don't want that coating that's covering the fiber to be moving around at different temperatures or even separating from the fiber. So there's a lot of big challenges. In a bowstring it sounds simple enough, but when we're looking at the coating and adhering it to these relatively slick fibers it was a very big challenge to come up with that coating.

Speaker 1 8:26

Yeah, Listen, I can definitely appreciate that. You know, uh, Dub and I, that's we. We affectionately refer to Wes as Dub. So, um, he, he and I, we, we shot tack up in Tennessee recently and man it was, it was very, very rainy so wet, just so wet Okay.

Speaker 1 8:48

And he and I were both shooting our strings, which are made out of bloodline fibers, and we noticed that the guys, some of the guys that we were shooting with, they were having a hard time with theirs because their strings were, I mean, they were soaked and, man, it was affecting their impact point drastically. You know, we kind of talked with them about it and we didn't shoot much that day. So that was on Saturday when we pretty much got soaked and we only shot a few targets and then the lightning appeared. And I'm okay with rain, I'm not okay with lightning. So we we made our way back to the back to the pickup point when that, when that started. So but, yeah, mean, I can definitely attest to the fact that they perform really well. Um, when, when, when you're in, you know, shooting in the rain and everything which is going to happen. It's going to happen whether you're hunting or whether you're doing target archery. So I think that there's a lot of validity to that argument.

Understanding String Materials and Coatings

Speaker 3 9:58

Yeah, and we I mean we hear that quite a bit when, especially from archers out in the Pacific Northwest, when they're out in the rain quite a bit more than everyone else. You know the proof's in the pudding when you're standing next to someone that has a different technology on their string and it's very noticeable. The other thing is like that big spray of water, that kind of cloud that comes off Right, that big spray of water, that kind of cloud that comes off.

Speaker 3 10:23

Right, you can also look at that between the different fiber types and see the difference of that cloud that shoots off. Your string is also noticeable as well. Yeah, that's really cool.

Speaker 1 10:38

So you mentioned that you worked a lot with the coating the coating that was going to go on the material. Now we've worked with several of your materials. We've worked with the Brave 99, and we've worked with well, I guess we've worked with four of them now. So we've done B99, v99, r99, a Revelation 99, and then Tenacity. So we build all of our crossbow strings using Tenacity material, which is really good, and then we settled on. Revelation is what we build 99% of our strings with. If it's going on a compound bow, that is our material of choice. So talk to me a little bit about that. You know so when you and I first met and we first started working with your materials, we were using the B99, which is fast. I do like that. I do like that. It's fast, but man, it's slick.

Speaker 3 11:47

Correct. So most archers don't understand the build process of how to build a string. When we first developed that coding it really had all the benefits that you're looking for as far as the end user's result. It is slick, so it's so. It's easier to build with and you know your quality control can rise If it's, you know, has a little more grip in the build process. The chance for errors to happen are reduced, so it's a little more builder friendly. I would say that Rev99. It's also another, you know, rock solid. It's zero movement on those those strings when they're all built.

Speaker 1 12:50

Yeah, man, I gotta tell you the the rev 99, I will stand behind that string. Um, I mean that, that is a, that is a hill I will die on right there. I I'm just extremely confident in him, the finished product that we can get using that material.

Speaker 2 13:08

Yeah, I like the rev 99. Um, I've probably had three or four strings with the rev 99. I like the brave 99 a little better because it's faster and I'm a speed demon when it comes to bows. I just I like fast. Um, I like the slick on the Brave because it's just. I don't know it's weird, but the way it feels on my face just feels so much better, like on my nose. I don't know why, but it just feels better.

Speaker 3 13:37

Gotcha.

Speaker 2 13:38

And when I tell people that, they laugh at me. But it's weird.

Speaker 1 13:41

Like more just the air. I don't understand it, but it's weird.

Speaker 3 13:42

Like more just yeah, I don't understand it, but it just feels like it feels refined, like a like refined material yeah, the one thing about that brave 99 is you have to use like 28 strands, so quite a few more extra strands right in the bowstring and that kind of results in it forming almost a slicker tube on the outside. Um, oh, it's a little bit smoother versus the the lower strand count materials. They're a little bit bumpier and just have a different aesthetic on the outside of them, so that can be part of what you're seeing too.

Speaker 1 14:22

Yeah, for sure, you know, I'll say, with the B99 material, if you take your time in the build process, if you'll take your time with it, you can get a finished string that is, I mean, as close to perfect as I think we can get. If you don't take your time, if you're, if you lax a little bit somewhere, if you start and stop when you're serving or something like that, that serving is going to separate on you. It's going to slide on that, on that slick material, um, and part of that may be that because it's making such a symmetrical um shape, the actual string is that it doesn't have as much to grip on. I don't really know. I am not, and will not say that I am, a material science guru, but I do know how to make a good string and I do know how to teach guys how to make good strings and feel really good about using the product. So one of the biggest reasons that we chose to go with Bloodline over anything else that's on the market is the consistency that we can get out of the bundle. So, like you were talking about, mark, not everybody understands what it takes to build a string. You know, you look at it and you're like okay, well, it's just some strings twisted together. Well, there's more to it than that. I mean, there's a, there's a whole formula that goes into it about you know what, what your, what your layup process needs to be, how long your layup needs to be for you to get to your finished string and to have the right amount of twists in that bundle, so you're not over twisted or under twisted. Um, and then from there you've got the process of actually stabilizing that bundle, which you and I've worked together on that. And, man, I am, I am ultra confident in what we do to stabilize our bundle.

Speaker 1 16:15

Everybody calls it stretching. You know all the string manufacturers, um, I think they do it because that's just become like an industry, a keyword that the archery industry uses. Um, to me it's it's a misnomer. You know, we're not really stretching that bundle. We're stabilizing that bundle. We're getting it to settle in and those fibers to come together and lay next to each other, but we're not really stretching it. Um, so that's just like I said, it's just a, it's a. Maybe call that a quirk of mine, cause you know, when you look at it and you look at the tensile strength of that material and everything that 400 pounds or 450 pounds or or 390 pounds or whatever it is that we put on it when we're going through and stabilizing that bundle, we we're not stretching that string, it's just not happening, um so but in in doing that.

Speaker 1 17:10

So I said the reason that that we chose, we choose to work with bloodline is because the consistency that we can get out of the bundle. So we, we know what our, we know what our build process is. We know how many strands we want to have. You know what our strand count is, what our diameter, our target diameters are. You know for our, um, our finished bundle, and then you know where our, our ends are served, where it's going in the cam, and what our center serving. You know what we want it to be and we tweak that a little bit based on what knock the archer is shooting, whether they're shooting an X knock or an IP4 or a, you know some type of a beater knock or whatever it may be. We can tweak that a little bit by changing the size of the center serving that we use.

Speaker 1 18:07

But with the bloodline material we don't have to change our strand count based on the color that we're working with. Every single color comes out the exact same, and the same can't be said about other string material on the market, and to me that's a that's a huge, that's a huge deal and it should it should be for everybody. You know when you're looking at you want a premium string, you want the best string that you possibly can get on your bow. Basically, all strings are going to cost you about the same. You know you're going to spend. You know let's just call it 200 bucks on a string. So for that 200 bucks, you want to make sure that you've got the absolute best product that you can get. Well, in my opinion and based on my experience with it, the best one you can get is going to be with bloodline material yeah, absolutely.

Zero-Maintenance String Technology

Speaker 3 19:06

And then just to go back on the, the I forget what term you use, but the the setting in of the fibers, um, removing some of that, uh, construction, elongation or those voids that are in there, right that? Also on that, the customer that receives the bowstring, it removes the amount of change that they're going to see over time. Uh, you know you're not going to see a lot of movement in your string. You know, after the first two or three shots it's everything's already pre-settled in. So there's other types of fibers out there that you know, or processes of building a bowstring that don't include some of that work that you guys are doing and you're going to see. You know, stuff moving around for 100 shots right yeah, until everything settles in.

Speaker 3 19:58

so that that's, uh, another benefit of you know, making sure you're doing that, removing those voids and making sure the fibers have found their most optimal location before the customer receives that strain yep, yep, it's, I mean it's, it's in the details.

Speaker 1 20:17

I mean, when you're talking about building something like this, you know we're taking, we're taking the, the innovation that you guys have had and finding the best material to work with and then the best coding to use, and the way that you're dyeing the material, which is a big part of why those bundles always work out. The same to me. And, in talking with you, a big part of that is how you're actually dyeing the material. You know. So when we, when we'll work with other materials, man, we'll be sitting there serving and you're, you're, you're picking the dye off of the serving jig as you're serving, because it's just pulling it off, because all of the dye is sitting on top of the material and that's what's causing the difference in the size of the bundle, is it's on the outside. So, for instance, specifically, if I were to build a flow green string with another material on the market, I would have to drop either two or four strands out of that bundle to get to the appropriate size. And if I don't, because on end serving not loop, serving not what goes on the loop. So when we fold the loop, it's served. That's pretty standard You're going to use like a 008 material or a 007 material or something like that.

Speaker 1 21:40

But on the actual end serving, I don't think going below of a 14 size serving is. I don't think that's advantageous. To do that I think you need at least a 14. So you've got the abrasion resistance, you've got the strength there in that material, because that's where the string is rubbing on the cams and you don't want it to, you know, be something that's super thin, that just cuts through. So if you've got a big bundle, you know you've got to do something. So you're staying in that, in that channel, on that cam. The only way to do it is to cut down the size of your bundle and that's cutting down the size. You know that's cutting down how many strands you've got in your string over time. That's going to affect the, the longevity of the string. I mean it's going to have to. You know, if you're trying to do more with less, it doesn't take a a math magician to be able to say, hey, that that string's not going to last as long, right yep.

Speaker 3 22:38

And then the other know kind of negative part of having that extra I don't know if you want to call it coating, but extra material around those fibers is over time after you shoot. You know those fibers are going to move through that coating and it's going to squeeze together and your length of your string will slowly change over time. And you know some people think that that's the fibers creeping or they call it stretching, but in most cases it's just you know the fibers are squeezing together and pushing out that extra wax material that's in there. So that is one benefit that we don't have that extra material that gets moved around over time.

Speaker 1 23:19

Right, yeah, and you know, so kind of a kind of a an issue that you'll see when that happens is you'll start seeing serving separation, because what's happening is those as those, those fibers, are settling and getting tighter together. Well, now that serving that's wrapped around the outside of that string, that's there to protect the string, now it has become loose, right, because that bundle that bundle is smaller up under it.

Speaker 1 23:47

So you'll have, you know, let's say, like on a matthew string, you might have 20 inches of serving. Well, right in the middle of it. You know where that, where that string makes a turn on a cam or something, you, you're going to have a ton of separation because you know it's, it's just, it's just pushing, it's pushing that serving back and forth every time you shoot. And and I mean realistically for the average archer, they're not going to see a difference in that from an accuracy standpoint, because I mean, they're trying to hit pie plates. Okay, let's, let's be realistic about it. Um, but, um, you know, if they're not, if they don't pay attention to what's going on and that serving gets completely out of the way and that cam starts, um, actually rubbing on that string, man, it doesn't take long for it to cut that string and you'd have a very serious issue on your hands, if not a catastrophic failure on your hands, and that is no fun. Speaking from someone who's had a bowstring break on him before not one of mine, but having a bowstring break on me before, that is no fun. Yeah, I bet. But you know the other side of it. That, I think, is a huge benefit that you know the other side of it, that that, uh, that I think is a is a huge benefit. That, um, you know we don't have the opportunity to to. I don't want to say we don't have the opportunity.

Speaker 1 25:08

I think the word needs to get out about this even more is the fact that you're you're basically putting a string on your bow that requires no maintenance. You know you don't have to go back in and wax your string or anything like that. You know, obviously, yeah, let's clean it from time to time, make sure. You know we keep the, keep the, the dirt out of it, sand out of it, stuff like that. But you don't need to go back and wax your string, man, you just put it on there and let it ride.

Speaker 1 25:35

And in my experience, I've only been doing this, you know, for about a decade, so I don't have that much experience. But in that amount of time, what I have learned is bow hunters are terrible about maintaining their gear. They're just not good at it. If you tell a guy, if you tell a guy he needs to, he needs to wax his string. You know, hey, wax your string, put a new string on your bow, wax your string, you keep it waxed and this thing's gonna last you. You know, with as much as you probably shoot as a typical bow hunter, you're probably going to get three or four years out of the string, like two years later, year and a half later, they're coming back in and their string looks like a squirrel has been chewing on it actually we.

Speaker 2 26:18

We did have somebody come in there. Uh, they had a pit bull and their dog actually chewed through probably half the strands on their string yeah and talk about sketchy when they pulled that thing out the case, I was like let's go ahead and take those strings off.

Speaker 1 26:32

Yeah yeah, that is something that happened. So, but yeah, I mean that that stuff's gonna happen, you know. But I I think having something where you're not having to go back over it and make sure everything is perfect and and re-waxing it, reapplying wax and knowing how to do that and everything. Because another thing I'll tell you is, guys will come in with their bow and sometimes I think they do it right before they come in. You know, kind of like going to the dentist, you brush your teeth right before going to the dentist to get your teeth cleaned.

Speaker 1 27:06

It's like, dude, they know you haven't been brushing your teeth. I mean, they know you haven't been flossing, that. You just floss for the first time since you were in their chair last time this morning, you know, but they'll come in and they're gonna wax gobbed up everywhere, I mean all over the serving, just wax hanging off the cams and stuff and it. You know, you try to spend a few minutes with them and say, hey, listen, when you wax your bow. The question I always ask is you know, have you ever, have you ever shined a pair of shoes, shined a pair of boots or something? And man, it is shocking how many people will say no, they've never done that before. So, mark, I'm gonna ask you the question have you ever shined a pair of shoes?

Speaker 3 27:52

I have actually okay, okay good, good, there's, there's, yeah yeah, you don't. You don't take it on there and just leave it on your shoes, right? No?

Speaker 1 28:00

way, man, you've got to rub it in, get it into the leather of the shoe and then actually wipe it off and buff it right. So you're basically taking that polish and you're applying heat to it not with a heat gun, not with a blow dryer, not with a blow dryer, with a brush or with a with a rag and you're causing it to melt over the top of that of that leather and form a barrier. And it's the same concept with a string that needs to be waxed. What you're trying to do is form a barrier so stuff can't get into your bowstring, because once stuff gets in there, bad things happen. So doing something that that removes that factor, that removes the need to to, to do something like that, I think, is definitely a step in the right direction.

Speaker 1 28:51

Um, I don't know that it was. Um, I don't know that it was the the overall goal of what you guys were doing when you developed the product. You were just trying to make a product that had a coating on it. That would be a protective coating, like you said. That would be good for abrasion resistance, it would be good for UV protection, but one of the usually I say unintended consequences because we'll make decisions and there'll be unintended consequences for making a good decision right. But I think one of the unintended benefits of this is you make, you've made a, you've made a material that we're able to make strings out of. That, you know, has the benefit of being zero to to very low maintenance for the guy that's that's pulling the string.

Speaker 1 29:38

And uh, I'm not saying, I'm not saying people are stupid. That's not what I'm saying. I'll say that another time. But right now what I'm saying is people aren't, people aren't the best at maintaining their stuff. So, um, doing that has has. Uh, we've, we've seen a. Uh, we've, we've seen the light bulb go off. When we tell people, hey, you got bow wax, and they're like, no, I don't have any. Okay, good, you don't even have to buy any. If you got some, throw it away, don't put it on here, because if you do, it's just going to sling it off, it's going to make a mess. We've tried that to see what would happen. It's kind of funny, but um, yeah, it also can.

String Building and Quality Control

Speaker 3 30:16

You know there is some advantages of. You know the wax can protect the fiber but it also does collect, you know, dirt and dust very easily. So it sometimes can get that stuff even inside of the strand. So in in a really long. If you're trying to have a string for a long time, sometimes it can can be fighting you in the other direction as well by collecting dust and dirt right, yeah, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1 30:46

We've seen that before when we've taught people how to maintain their string, and we will take a piece of serving and wrap it around the string and drag it up and down, basically burn, burnishing the string, and, uh, it brings all that wax on the outside of the string off and they look at it and they're like, oh, my gosh man, are you sure I don't need a new string? You know? And um, anyway, I'm I'm not big on upselling people. My friends in the business world will say, john, you don't need to be in retail. If you don't want to upsell somebody, you need to get out of retail. But I just I refuse to do it.

Speaker 1 31:23

You know, if there's a benefit to somebody doing something, I want to share the benefit with them and say, hey, this, this would be the benefit. If you want to do this, if you don't want to do this, that's okay, this is still going to work, or you can do it this way, but you know, so, yeah, when somebody says, gosh, I just need to get a new string, I'm always like, nah, this one's fine, you can, you can roll with it, you know. Just, this is what you need to do, you know, to keep this one going for another, another season or whatever you know. So, but anyhow, so tell, tell us about the actual material that you guys are using, what you know, the parts that you are open to sharing about it, why you chose to use that with the different string materials, and so on.

Speaker 3 32:09

So the fibers that we're using, it's mostly two main fibers. One is called Dyneema, which is a high modulus polyethylene, and the other one is called Vectran, which is a liquid crystal polymer. So there's a little bit of history, especially in the Dyneema type of fiber. When Dyneema first started coming out and getting into bow strings, you know, over 20 years ago, the Dyneema grade was, you know, not as developed as the current grades that are on the market. So when they built the bow string out of these Dyneema grades, even the old SK-75 grades or SK-62, those old grades of fiber, in a bowstring application they would creep, which means they just, they basically essentially just get longer under load and they don't, they stay at that length. It's permanent elongation.

Speaker 3 33:13

So for a bowstring that's pretty, that's not a, you know, not something that we really want in a bowstring. And that that caused, uh, another fiber called vectran to be used, which basically vectran cannot creep at all. So blending that in with dyneema, uh, you know, stops that permanent growth from taking place. So that's where the blended fibers came into play, the Vectran and the Dyneema, and that's, you know, kind of an older approach. And now with the newer grade fibers, like the SK99 Dyneema. They have very, very low creep and especially in the bowstring application everything's so overbuilt that uh the creep is uh like with our brave 99. You wouldn't see you know a creep unless you use the thing for like 20 years possibly. It's a very long time dependent, uh phenomena good grief, but yeah.

Speaker 3 34:22

So but saying that, uh, since the archery industry is like somewhat slower to change, it's somewhat cautious and uh, people like you know, when they figure out something to work that works, they're not going to want to, you know, change it. They have that in their mind. So we do have, you know, vectran blended products as well, that that do help a lot of archers that are, you know, want or are stuck on that blended product and don't don't want to shift to the newer technology of the pure sk99 dyneema. We do blend with the, the new sk99 dyneema and vectran in in both the revelation product, in the tech 99 product or valor 99. So both of those have the blended material with the vectran and they're absolutely rock solid.

Speaker 3 35:16

The Vectran is a little little more grippy or, you know, has a higher coefficient of friction. So in the build process that the Vectran can kind of grip to other fibers as well and that you know that just kind of helps everything lock super solid. I don't know if you've noticed building with uh rev 99 versus the Brave 99, everything just locks in very tight. Oh man.

Speaker 1 35:42

So I built a string yesterday. We helped the Army with one of their recovery programs and part of that is that they have bows for these soldiers to come in and they're able to shoot them and compete in different competitions and things like that. So we're working on some of them for them. And I actually built the string for one of them yesterday and built it out of R-99. And when I got done, at um, so, at 90 pounds of pressure, so that was like uh, what is that? Like 420 pounds or something like that, cut the air off and that string didn't move at all. I mean, like it didn't move it, it moved. It moves zero degrees when, when I cut the pressure off of it and that's always, that's always, that's always like the litmus test, right when you get done building a string, exactly apply pressure on and off and see, see what it does, see how it moves, and, man, I can't tell you how many.

Speaker 1 36:51

So we started doing this two and a half years ago, three years ago, something like that. Now, oh my gosh, you know it's been, it's been over three years ago that we kind of started on this quest of building a bowstring and saying, okay, we, we want to. We want to figure this out. We're gonna, we're gonna, you know, start a company and and this is what we're gonna do. So for the first year and a half we didn't put a bowstring on a single bow outside of our own. And I can't tell you how many times we would build a string and throw it away. I mean just like, nope, this is not going to work. We're not even going to try to fix this one, we're just throwing it away. And I mean there's no telling how many yards of material we went through between string material and serving material and trying all kinds of different things, whether we were trying round serving, to go on our end loops, you know, on our end serving, or doing a flat serving, or whatever it was that we were doing. We tested so many different things and so often we would take it and throw it away.

Speaker 1 37:56

And the thing that took us the longest to figure out and you know, if a string builder somewhere out in string builder world listens to this, they're either going to be like yep, they're either going to shake their head up and down or be like man. This guy's a total idiot, I don't know, but the one that was the hardest for us to get was solo cam strings, and I think that part of that is because they're freaking long. I mean, you're, you're sitting there dealing with a string that's 90 inches long and if you do anything wrong when you're building that string, man, it's going to show up pretty quick, right, uh, yeah. So I think a shorter string is it gives you a little bit of forgiveness, um, that you know if you make a little bit of a mistake when you're, when you're laying it up, or something like that, you've got a little bit of forgiveness, um, that you know if you make a little bit of a mistake when you're, when you're laying it up, or something like that, you've got a little bit of forgiveness there, not much, you know. It's not like I'm saying oh, a short string is easy to build, no, it's not okay.

Speaker 1 38:48

A recurve string that's easy to build. A crossbow string that's easy to build. You just need something that's strong, you know, um, but, um, when it comes to comes down to a compound bow string, that thing's got to be stable, in my opinion. If it, if it turns, if so, we, we always put a, we always put a separator in so we know where the center of the string is. So it's easy for whoever's working on the bow to be able to put their peep in right, and so you. So you've got a piece of string pointing straight up and down. When you do that, if we cycle that pressure on the bowstring, when we're done if it moves at all, it's done we're throwing it in the trash. It's not going out. I mean, that's just everybody that works for us knows that. They know that this is the standard that I have for the product that's going out there, and we're not just doing that for guys that we're like hey, well, you test our product and then we're being super specific and anal about everything and we want everything to be perfect, heck, no. Like if we have a guy in Nebraska that's going to be shooting our strings, you know, testing them out, and he's he's going to be shooting, you know, 500 times a week or whatever. It's not like I'm going through and I'm building that string and making sure everything is absolutely perfect.

Speaker 1 40:25

No-transcript. Go on anybody's bow, shoot it. Put 500 shots through it. Take these pictures, send them to us. Put another thousand shots through it. Take these pictures, send them to us. Put another thousand shots through it. Take these pictures, send it to us, put another 1500 shots through it, let us know when you get there we're going to send you another string. Send that one back to us, right?

Speaker 1 40:45

And then we get it back and we put it on and always tell them be really careful when you take it off the bow. Don't put any twist in, don't take any twist out. You know, be careful when you cut your peep out, all this kind of stuff. Right, we give specific instructions because when it comes back, we're putting it on the jig and we're putting it under tension and we're we're measuring everything we want to see. Okay, how much did this thing change? Did it change? What's the serving look like? You know what's the bundle look like. All this, all this kind of stuff. Because we want it to be that when somebody gets a bison string, that you know that the longevity is there, that the strength is there and that the quality is there. I think that anytime you're doing a product, those need to be things that you're taking into consideration.

Speaker 3 41:31

So that's something that we make sure that we do yeah, the other big thing that I really respect a lot of string builders for is they're not doing all this work on the same product every time, the same bow model. Most builders are having to, you know, almost be experts at all the bow models or or at least learn the difficult points of a lot of the different models. So they're, you know it's. It's not easy to be well versed in all the different bow types and the specifics that you know. Each string you know, depending on which bow it is. Sometimes they're going to adjust their build process a little bit for for that specific bow yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 42:13

You know, when you think about building a string for a matthews lift, well, you're going to build it a little bit different when it's time to build a string for a Bowtech Reckoning right, because a Bowtech Reckoning is a great bow but it is a cable eater and if you don't build those cables right, it's going to tear through them. And if you build them right, if you do everything perfect, it's still eventually going to eat those cables. And if you build them right, if you do everything perfect, it's still eventually going to eat those cables, just because of the way that the cables are routed on those bows and they make some really, really tight turns, and serving doesn't play nice with tight turns like that over a period of time. So it's just one of those things that there's not a whole lot that you can do to mitigate that.

Serving Innovations and Product Design

Speaker 3 42:57

Yeah, it is. It's really one of those things that you know the price of the string you got to almost you know. Add up all the hours of learning about different bows and all the different. You know difficulties on each bow that in in ways to to get past those and you know be successful in all the r&d time. So I mean that's the price of the string isn't just for the. You know the time it takes to make it. There's a lot of effort behind the scenes before you even get the order.

Speaker 1 43:25

Right, yeah, yeah, absolutely Well like.

Speaker 1 43:28

I said, you know, when we were doing it, we spent. I mean, I guess I guess it was about 18 months going back and forth building stuff, testing it on our own equipment and, you know, being frustrated with it. I mean, we, we probably spent. I I know for a fact, I can say this with 100 confidence the first string that I ever built and put on my boat, it was a piece of trash. It was so bad it was, and it wasn't. It didn't have anything to do with the material that I used or anything like that, it was just dude. I didn't know what I was doing.

Speaker 1 44:04

I will be the first to admit that. And, um, I think that I think there's a lot to be said about that that you know you gotta, you gotta start somewhere, you gotta be willing to learn something new, right, and you gotta be willing to say, all right, this first few times I do this, it's probably going to be pathetic, and it was definitely pathetic. And it was not just the first few times, it was quite a few times. That is Southern for saying it was a lot, it was bad.

Speaker 1 44:43

But, anyway, we've learned and we are really confident in what we're building now and have a lot of fun doing it. So something else that we do with you guys is we work with the serving material that you have with you guys is we work with the serving material that you have and you guys use a different process for building your serving um and the material that you use to to do it and everything.

Speaker 3 45:07

so talk with us a little bit about that, about that boa serving that you've got yeah, so for the boa serving, uh, one of the you know phenomena that we just talked about earlier was what if your bundle starts to get tighter, more packed together and there's, you know, your diameter of the string is going to get smaller.

Speaker 3 45:27

Our you know, original design of BOA was to combat serving separation from that phenomena. So inside the core of boa is a material that has a little more stretch, and then we braid around that core material so that the angle of those, the braid angle, allows for that stretch to take place, you know, in the first five or 10 pounds, and then the braid starts to take over and hold the load. But when you use that serving material around a string and you serve it under tension, that little bit of stretch that's in that serving, you know, creates almost like a constricting grip around the string. And that's why we call it BOA, because it has this you know amount of energy that's actually gripping around the string due to the materials that we've selected in the construction of that braid.

Speaker 3 46:25

So, and our go ahead oh, go ahead, our bola material also.

Speaker 1 46:29

You know we're using specific coatings that are are meant for that serving, to hold to the string and then also to protect the fibers on the serving itself yeah, so that's what I was going to ask you, because I know that in working with it, it also has a coating on it as well, and it is not wax, um, but it but you can. You can tell that there's a coating on there, um, so that's what that's. What I was going to ask was what was it? Is it the same that's going on the bow string, or is it just similar to what's on the on the string material or kind of what? What does that look like?

Speaker 3 47:00

yeah, it's, uh, it's similar, but it's it's still, you know, decently different from the chemical side than what's on on the string itself.

Speaker 1 47:09

Yeah.

Speaker 3 47:11

Um, it's, it's got um. I don't want to disclose too much information on it, but it does give us. You know a benefit, uh, from servants as well, compared to you know some of the other products that are out there.

Speaker 1 47:24

Yeah Well, I can tell you this that some of the other products that are on the market, if we use those, specifically with a B99 material, we will have a lot of serving separation. It just will not grip that material at all, to the point that it makes it even harder to work with if you try to use that material. It makes it even harder to work with if you try to use that material with the boa. So what we serve with boa 14, that's what we do all of our in serving with and man it, just it, it. It grips extremely well.

Speaker 1 48:01

Um, so I've got I've got it on my current bow that I'm shooting and I've got about 2000 shots through that bow. It a matthews lift. Um, first time I've shot a matthews in in quite a few years and I'm enjoying the bow. Um shoots pretty good, um, but um, matthews bows are I mean, they're, they're known for where that mod comes around and and goes into the cable for it to cause serving separation right there. Yep, just simply, I mean, if for nothing else, just because of the abrasion, because you're doing that every single time you shoot. And I've got zero serving separation right there. You can see where the serving, you can see where that mod comes around and hits right there every time.

Speaker 1 48:51

But it's not. It hasn't affected the serving and I used the colored serving on purpose so I could see. You know it's one thing to to you know, see something on black serving. Um, I think I think black serving and natural string fibers are probably your two strongest materials. Um, because they they don't have anything on them, they're just. You know, it is what it is, whereas with your colored materials you know you're able to see, if nothing else, you're able to see it break down easier because you can see the discoloration happening and stuff like that. And I've been really impressed in how well that's held up. We had one guy that had a bow that he had, I want to say he had like 7,000 or 7,500 shots through it.

Speaker 2 49:41

Yeah, it was a lot.

Speaker 1 49:42

And when we built his string we used clear serving or white serving. That's what it looks like on the spool. It looks white. But when you put it on and then we can put some clarifying oil oil on it it just it, it makes it disappear, it takes on the color of whatever string. You know, we've, we've served and um, so let's say he had 7,000 shots through that thing. There was zero serving separation. Um, serving never got cut anywhere. Um, and that was on a title, a Matthews title 40.

Speaker 2 50:19

Uh, no, that was a 38, a 38. He got that the year before the 40 came out.

Speaker 1 50:23

Yeah, that's right, okay, and um so I mean it just it performed. And um, so I mean it just it performed. It performed really, really well. Um so that's, I mean we're, we're just, we're just a, we're a believer in the materials, all of it, the serving and the um and the actual, uh, string fibers. I think that it's just a, I think it's a phenomenal product. I really do.

Speaker 1 50:48

Awesome Good to hear Yep, so well anyway. So that I mean, is there any other product that you want to talk about? You've talked about the serving. You've talked about, obviously, about the string material. Um, how you guys got into it, how, how you so did, you did you start bloodline. Is that a company that you?

Speaker 3 51:05

started, Started it in 2014. Okay, so we've been around for a bit and we're you know, we're really gearing up to be around for quite a bit longer. We've put some, you know, big investment into some state of the art equipment that's going to help our quality even get better and production. So one of our limiting things is just our, our production capabilities. So that's that's really exciting to get to that next step and you know, we always have some new products coming down the pipeline that we're excited for as well.

Speaker 1 51:43

Yeah, for sure I'll be excited to see some of those as they as they start coming out.

Speaker 3 51:49

Yeah, the other big one is the that we released this last year was the uh speed knocks. Yep, those uh, they're called fast brass but the the big uh benefit to them is it's easier on the string builder's hands to install them. So that's a product that's doing really well. We're excited to, you know, provide that benefit. One of the things for the string builders is if they're squeezing those brass knocks every day, you know, for years on end, they can start to wear and tear on them a little bit.

Speaker 3 52:23

So that was kind of the driver behind that product was trying to get something that's a little less force required to crimp it on right, yeah, yeah, and something that won't break when you crimp it exactly so, these ones, you can put them in a vice and squish them as hard as you want, and and they're flat, and they don't uh crack oh, wow, okay so that makes it, you know, a safer product too out there. If those, if this speed sacks or speed knots ever broke or cracked, you know that that could fly off and injure somebody yeah, if they, if they break they're, they're coming off.

Speaker 1 53:01

I mean that heat shrink that goes on around them. That's merely an aesthetic thing, you know, because it looks better to have heat shrink over the top of it than it does to just have this piece of brass hanging on your string and so if it breaks and you shoot your bow, it's coming off of there. And yeah, you don't want to get hit with one of those things.

Speaker 3 53:24

No.

Speaker 1 53:26

By any means. It'd be like getting hit with a bullet or something with a five stack, you know I mean that they weigh about 40, 42 grains or so, so you definitely wouldn't would want to get hit with that. Well, so you got some new products coming. We'll be excited to see that. Um, we've talked about all the products that you guys got going. Now, kind of what, what you? What got you into the market?

Speaker 1 53:49

Where the, where the name came from, where the tagline came from, from your grandma and the power in the blood, the, the hymn she used to sing and and play on the piano and everything. So, in in every podcast we do, we always there's always a vertical portion of it. You know where we talk about. You know it's so easy for us to talk about the horizontal part. You know that we're we're going to talk about everything that we can see and feel and touch. Right, that's what we're dealing with on a daily basis. But there's a bigger part to life. There's a vertical connection that we get to have with God, the creator of everything. Creator of everything. And you opened the podcast saying that you spent your childhood with missionary parents in Venezuela. So tell us about that.

Speaker 3 54:42

So, for me, venezuela was just like my home and, you know, I still kind of have those memories and feelings of growing up down there. You know, I still kind of have those memories and feelings of growing up down there. But, you know, I got to experience not only like the Latin American culture, but also, uh, out in the you know, the native Americans who lived out in the jungles of Venezuela. I got to visit there and, uh, you know, see that culture as well. Um so so my dad was a teacher at a missionary school, so I got to, you know, grow up with all these missionary kids and sometimes they would invite us, you know, back to their homes out in the jungles and, uh, got to see some really cool things.

Speaker 3 55:24

And uh, uh, one of our really old pictures on our Instagram there's a picture of, you know, a jaguar that the Indians had killed and that was a really cool experience to get to see, you know, this jaguar that had been killed and just a lot of different animals. I was, as a kid, was, was, you know, obsessed with animals and lizards and reptiles and insects, and that was the place to be, uh, no doubt, for a kid like that. Yeah, it was? It was basically, uh, living in heaven, almost well, a stark contrast from minnesota exactly.

Speaker 3 56:05

Yeah, I remember right when I moved back here, so we didn't have chipmunks down there but like the first week I was back here, I caught a chipmunk and it bit me and, uh, I was only like 10 years old but, uh, it bit me and I was kind of shocked and I flung it and it just died instantly, which is really strange.

Speaker 3 56:25

But I remember just, uh, you know, trying to catch everything when I was little, uh, but I also, you know, growing up in those environments, got to see God move in some really awesome ways and, you know, people's lives changed, uh, and then now, you know, fast forwarding, you know, venezuela is kind of fully falling apart as a country. Yeah, and it's interesting, kids that have, like I grew up with on my street, are now, you know, living pretty nearby in chicago, or so it's kind of been neat, after you know, 30 years or more, um, seeing some of these people, uh, which is, you know, just a trip man that wild. Yeah, just to think that we were like we're my parents, really just let us run free when we were little, and the kids that we were playing with are now here. It's just, you know, the world's smaller than you think.

Speaker 1 57:21

Yeah, yeah, I would. I would agree with that in a in a in a big way. So that that's really cool that you said that you got to. You got to see god work in a lot of, a lot of cool ways down there. So your parents were both your parents. Were they both teaching at this school, or was it just your dad that was teaching, or yeah, my mom taught too and they did.

Speaker 3 57:43

My mom had like, uh like a neighborhood kind of like bible Bible study for kids that are like uh kind of like a small Bible camp, those kinds of things quite a bit for in the neighborhoods. Yeah, and my dad would preach at churches on the weekends. But one cool story or it's it's not cool, it's kind of crazy Wild story was, uh, I think you'll like this one that one night we were driving home late at night and uh, you know, venezuela, we were really close to colombia and at the time there was a lot of drug traffic and stuff happening yeah and it sounded like so.

Speaker 3 58:22

As we were driving, someone darted out of the woods they're out of the weeds, kind of these tall weeds and my dad ran them over with our jeep wagon here and, uh, I remember in the car I remember like my dad had hit the brakes and stuff and I kind of flew around in the car a little bit oh yeah, because we didn't wear seat belts yeah, but what was happening was someone was someone yeah, I don't think I did have a seat belt someone was chasing uh that that guy guy with a gun, so that guy was just running for his life, and they ended up being inside of some sort of drug cartel situation.

Speaker 3 58:58

Oh my gosh, and my dad ended up getting arrested for this whole thing and you know, part of that's probably because he's, you know, an American guy. Who knows if they thought what the full story is, why he got arrested. But so he was in jail for quite a while and I remember going to visit him in jail and after a couple of weeks, uh, the cool part how God kind of worked in that story was a few people that worked in that jail ended up getting saved.

Speaker 3 59:29

Um, just from talking with my dad, uh over that time period and they, they saw other people come and, like you know, drop food off for everyone at the jail. Um, so they, their reasoning for why he was arrested was to protect him from the cartel until, like, stuff settled down, kind of what they took, what they told people, but I'm not sure if it was, you know, originally. We're going to try to get some money out of this or something, right, right? Um, so that was a really cool, you know, wild experience. In the end it resulted in, you know, a lot of, uh, a lot of benefit to to really seeing God move and change some people's lives.

Speaker 1 1:00:08

Yeah, yeah, that was fun. There's a lot of stories in the Bible about somebody being in jail. It's like in the Bible if you wanted to find Paul, if you went to a city where you thought Paul was going to be, go to the jail. That's probably where he is right. Yep, yep, exactly.

Speaker 3 1:00:27

I mean that guy good grief, man.

Speaker 1 1:00:30

What's some crazy stories. Well, yeah, that. So what? Were you like eight at the time or something?

Speaker 3 1:00:34

I know you said you guys yeah, I was, I was, I think when that happened, I was probably like seven or eight somewhere there yeah, just burned on your memory, though, one of those things that's never gonna go yeah yeah, it was crazy.

Speaker 1 1:00:48

That's wild. You know all so. So we talk about your parents being missionaries and and you know they they obviously had a distinct calling on their life that they needed to go and and and um move, you know, from Minnesota or wherever you guys called home when, when they, when they, when they um struck out on this missionary journey and they go down to Venezuela and they're doing this. So obviously they're leaning in to what the Lord is telling them and the direction of the Holy Spirit and everything. And I'll actually be teaching on Sunday about how we interact with the Holy Spirit and how crucial and critical it is that we know how to discern how the Holy Spirit is directing us. And so let's fast forward to today. You know how it looked 30 years ago, 34 years ago, whatever that was back in Venezuela. You know how it looked to your parents ago, whatever that was back in Venezuela. You know how it looked to your parents. And then now let's look at it and contrast our lives today and how it looks for us.

Speaker 1 1:01:57

How do we discern the leading of the Holy Spirit from a bad burrito that we ate last night? Right, we get up, and let's say, we got up this morning and we're like man. I had this dream and I just feel led to do this. Well, we need to be able to discern from okay, I ate something I shouldn't have eaten after 9 o'clock last night. So that's probably where that dream came from. Think the old Cosby show when he would have a sandwich too late in the day and he would start having these crazy dreams. You know these skits that they would play out or whatever. Um, but how do we discern that and how? How crucial is that in our lives today? Right? So what are, what are some things that you do in your life now to discern those things?

Speaker 3 1:02:45

Yeah. So I think when you, when you're like discerning the Holy spirit, there's a couple of things that I think are important. One of the big ones is that you know if you're hearing the Holy Spirit speak to you, it should align with also what's in the Bible. It shouldn't be, you know, something that is off base or isn't following God's word. So that's one way to kind of check it. Does this, you know, make sense to what also is kind of taught in the Bible or how Jesus taught people? Hopefully it should align with that and you know, if it doesn't align with what's in the scripture, it's probably not from the Holy.

Speaker 1 1:03:26

Spirit, exactly Yep, so it needs to be consistent with scripture.

Speaker 3 1:03:35

I think that's a perfect litmus test. Right, all right, what else, yep? So another one is you know, sometimes you can get, get a word from the Holy Spirit, but it's nice to have you know another, you know fellow fellow Christian. Also come and confirm that you know fellow Christian. Also come and confirm that you know this is also a word that they're getting. So if you can have you know people in your you know Christian fellowship also in agreement, I think it's also a big benefit to that.

Speaker 2 1:04:04

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:04:04

So what I'm hearing is needs to be consistent with scripture and Christianity. This, this faith that we all live by, is not an individual sport. Exactly, it's pretty important that we, that we live in community, that we have people that we're, that we have people that we're willing to, you know, share something like that with, because sometimes you can share something like that with somebody and they're like, oh my gosh, man, this guy, this guy's nuts, you know what, what is, what is what's up with Mark, you know? And, uh, or what's up with John? Why is he? What's he, what's he been up to? Why is he thinking that, uh, that that God's talking to him and telling him that he needs to do something? Um, so I think, I think you hit the nail on the head, man.

Speaker 1 1:04:51

You, you've got to have, you've got to have, golly people in your life that, um, that number one you can share stuff with that are not immediately going to go to okay, you're crazy, you know you had a weird fever dream or something, or you're being sensational about something and number two that are willing to say, ok, well, let's, let's pray through this, let's look at, let's look at scripture and see how this lines up with scripture. Because the truth is, you know, we read all three scripture where God's spirit would would be on someone you know, like, like, look at the story of Moses. So Moses led the nation of Israel out of captivity. Um, and what God had called him to do was too big for Moses to do. There was no way Moses could do that. And then the things that God called David to do there was no way David could accomplish the things that God wanted him to accomplish outside of his will. I mean, it was just, it was impossible for him to do it under his own strength.

Discerning the Holy Spirit's Leading

Speaker 1 1:06:07

Or the story of Samson. You know, obviously, the things that he did. There was no way his strength came from the Lord. It wasn't his hair that gave him strength, it was his consecration, it was his commitment to the Lord and the Holy Spirit being on him. So I think that those things are important and things that they were important back then and they're still important today and we just need to be mindful of that. We need to be intentional about our walk with the Lord. The way that we carry ourselves, the way that we behave, the way that we speak, the way that we do things All of that carries eternal importance. But, yeah, well, man, listen, I appreciate you sharing that story. Um, it was really cool. Hate that your dad got put in prison, but you know, it sounds like he was sent. He was sent there on a mission and uh, there was uh kind of like Jonah and the whale right.

Speaker 3 1:07:07

Yeah, that's how it worked out. It's uh, I mean, it kind of blew my mind that that could happen. And see those, you know, a good result from a bad situation, which was really cool, something bad because I don't know about you.

Speaker 1 1:07:26

Uh, I face bad stuff all the time and sometimes it's because of my own poor choices. You know bad decisions I've made, even though I try not to make bad choices. You know, I make two or 300 choices a day and, man, sometimes I get to the end of the day and look at it and I'm like there's only a handful of those decisions that I made that were really good. You know, sometimes more, sometimes less, but yeah, I think it's important for us to reflect on that and make sure that we're doing things the way that we're called to. But anyway, all right, dude, well, listen, we'll wrap it up. Thank you so much for hopping on the podcast with us, talking through this, sharing with us more about Bloodline and the materials that you guys use, the technology that you've put into it, the effort that you've put into it, the new products that are coming out. We'll all be excited to see that and I hope everybody listening really enjoys the podcast and we'll catch you next time.

Speaker 3 1:08:29

Yeah, thanks so much, John. I really appreciate you and your team over there.

Speaker 1 1:08:33

Yeah, absolutely man.