You're not doing that right... Post a video of yourself shooting your bow. I dare ya.

We've all seen it. Someone posts a video of them shooting their bow and the critiques (unsolicited) come flying in like mosquitos on opening weekend (definitely unsolicited). But lets say for a second that you have some questions about how you shoot your bow. You think that maybe you could make some changes and gain some better groups. Maybe even be able to shoot more often without having some kind of strange tinge in your elbow. Maybe you've been caught in the never ending onslaught of archery videos and you're thinking man I'm just doing everything wrong. Why do I even shoot a bow in the first place. Well today's episode is for that... ALL of THAT. Christian Williams from Archery Strong joins the guys on this episode to talk through some of the common woes that we've all faced in archery. He shares his experience from working with hundreds of archers with the word of encouragement of just keep shooting. Keep having fun. Keep getting out there and trying to beat yesterday. We hope you enjoy the podcast. Be sure to like the episode wherever you listen as that does help us out tremendously. 

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Transcript

Meet Christian Williams of Archery Strong

Speaker 1 1:19

and uh, all right, we are hot, we will get rolling. And here we go, all right. So we got christian williams on the podcast with us this morning and christian runs. Uh, archery strong and christian. I looked at it just a little while ago. Man, it's been, it's been, uh, it's been two years, almost to the date, since the last time you and I did a podcast together.

Speaker 2 1:46

Awesome, awesome.

Speaker 1 1:47

So I can't wait to hear about all the things about how your business has changed over the past two years and the things that you've learned and what you can share with us this morning. So, in case we've got people on here that have never heard of you before, or anything like that, tell us about who you are, what your story is and what you do.

Speaker 2 2:12

Absolutely. Yeah, let's dive into it. I'll try to provide the cliff notes here and that'll launch us into some good conversation. So my name is Christian Williams, I live in central Pennsylvania with my wonderful wife and I've got just the most amazing little blessing now of a little girl. Her name is River. She is almost 16 months old.

Speaker 2 2:40

So, I guess that's probably one of the biggest changes, john, since we last talked, and, man, she's just beyond my wildest dreams. So we've got a nice little family that we're growing here. I live in a rural area, like I said, in central Pennsylvania, with a little homestead, plenty of places to chase whitetails around us, and that's really what fueled or was a big part of what fueled me starting Archery Strong, which is the business that I run. That is focused on helping all types of archers and bow hunters relieve pain. If people have problems or pain, particularly in their upper body, that prevents them from shooting the way that they want to. We focus on preventing injury by helping make individuals stronger, more capable, more physically able, essentially just to get the most out of the body that God has given us and then to build performance, whether that looks like becoming more physically capable to shoot, to be able to go out and hunt, be able to serve our families.

Building Physical Training for Archers

Speaker 2 3:51

I really work with a wide variety of people, with a big focus, of course, on archery, but it really is banded to working with all kinds of different individuals for different goals, into working with all kinds of different individuals for different goals, ultimately leading towards getting the most out of this life that we were given when. When I started this, my main thought was man, I love archery, I love bow hunting, I love the different hobbies and physical activities that I do so much and I don't want those to either be hindered or taken away from me. So I essentially provide the physical training that helps meet the needs of these different individuals. So it's interesting, it's rewarding to get to work with different people and the ultimate purpose is just to be able to serve and help where I can and provide value where I can.

Speaker 1 4:48

All right, well, good deal. So remind me of your background, kind of how you got into this.

Speaker 2 4:55

Yeah, sure. So I, from teenage years, really dove headfirst into physical training. It was really an important outlet for me during a difficult divorce that my parents had and it was just something I clung to. So as I progressed into my teens and was really pouring into physical training, I also started to really pour into archery and the two had some commonalities and supported each other in different ways. And as I was continuing to grow with both of those areas of archery and physical training, I went to college for an exercise physiology degree.

Speaker 2 5:38

While I was in college I started working at a sports injury and sports performance clinic and I worked there for about five years and during that time as a side really a side idea I didn't really have any plans for it to be much of a business, but a side idea I just started to dive into different ways I could apply physical training to archery through my experience working with sports injury and sports performance. And Archery Strong was born and I really just started it again as kind of an interesting idea that I thought some people might have an interest in as well. And from there it grew and I offered some different programs and services and consulting and things of that nature for different programs and services and consulting and things of that nature. And here we are, about seven years later, where that idea has grown into something much more complex and involved than I anticipated.

Speaker 1 6:40

Yeah, it's really cool, man, to see how your business has evolved over this time I mean, even in the last two years, you know, since I've really been following you a lot closer. It's been really cool to kind of watch how that's gone and see the folks that you're able to help and everything. So I think it's a really cool thing. I really do so I want to get into it with you about so. Since the last time we've talked, what are some of the biggest things that you've learned with working with archers specifically?

Speaker 2 7:18

That's a great question. I would start that off by highlighting the uniqueness of the individual, and what I mean by that is everybody and this sounds overly simplistic, but I'll elaborate on it that everybody truly is different when it comes to our physical nature. And what I mean by that is, you know, we take something like archery that can be at first glance pretty straightforward. You know, you pick up a bow, you shoot a bow and you do it consistently. You try to do it well and learn more detail. Behind is the fact that you know we were all created with small individual differences, whether that's differences in how our bodies grew and developed, differences in our experience with maybe some injuries, maybe surgeries, maybe surgeries, maybe just some specific unique experiences that have really molded how our bodies function, how they perform. There are certainly differences in our physical ability in regards to different strength levels, ways that we move differently with patterns and positions, ways that our bodies are either mobile in certain ways or restricted in certain ways, and those differences really are important because they inform a lot of what we can do, should do, should not do in regards to archery, practicing for archery equipment and then training outside of archery as well. So you know, every time I take on a new client, or as I continue to work with clients that I've been working for a period of time with, I see those differences manifest in different ways. You know, as far as what they're doing with their shooting, what they need to modify or change with their equipment, how they can best support themselves with training, where we could compare it to some different contexts in the sense of you know, everybody eats a little bit differently, right? Some people find it's optimum for them to prioritize eating certain things over others or things they need to avoid. That would be one example, you know. Another example is how we either function in our jobs, our career function with our families. You know, all of us have these different strengths and weaknesses and details that really make up the uniqueness of us, that really make up the uniqueness of us.

Speaker 2 10:04

And again, those differences, just on a I guess, a first glance level, we say, okay, well, we know there are these differences, we see these differences, we learn the little details that make up each and every one of us. But what's really important is then taking that next step and saying, okay, what do these details mean for me? What do I need to do differently in my approach to archery in these different areas that we've talked about briefly or that I've continually interested by, impressed by and, I guess, realize that they are of great importance. So where that ultimately leads me a lot of times with people is, as I mentioned a second ago, working with them one-on-one individually as a client and trying to learn as much as I can about them and understand those details, and then guiding them along the right path for archery and training, while we take those details into account and use them to help us make decisions. The second big thing that I have, I guess, learned or more probably a better word is refined is whether we're talking about getting the most out of ourselves as archers in regards to performance or whether somebody is having a problem with pain, injury or performance.

Speaker 2 11:37

There's really five main categories that seem to primarily be the main categories that we have to look at to either maximize performance or solve a problem that someone might be having. The first is shooting form and technique. The second is what we would call load management, which means the draw weight we're shooting, the number of errors we're shooting, how often we're shooting. The third is function of the body. So that's when we get into the nitty gritty details of range of motion, strength, stability, past injuries, things of that nature. You know, kind of the functioning of the body, just like the functioning of a bow or a vehicle or a different machine.

Speaker 2 12:28

The fourth category is equipment, and that tends to be a little bit simpler, but it can be the type of bow you're shooting, it can be draw length, it can be the cams on a bow, the draw cycle on a bow if you're shooting a compound bow.

Speaker 2 12:44

And then the fifth is lifestyle factors, which is really all of the things outside of archery and exercise and training that can influence somebody as far as work-related things, lifestyle-related factors, that would pertain to the things that we're doing in daily life, again, anything outside of archery that, although they don't directly appear to be related to archery and exercise with our well-being in those areas, they can have big effects. A simple example would be if I'm working with somebody who's a heavy manual laborer, that's going to play a big role in what they're experiencing in archery, or can play a big role in what they're experiencing in archery and exercise. Or somebody who's a desk worker, you know, spending a lot of time in a sedentary position at a desk, that's definitely going to influence what's going on in archery and what needs to go on in exercise too. So those five categories pop up as really the main buckets that people normally fall into If, again, they're trying to maximize themselves as an archer or if we're trying to solve a problem in regards to archery exercise.

Speaker 1 14:01

Got it. So what I'm hearing is there's not one way to draw a bow.

Speaker 2 14:09

Yes, that's correct. Yeah, that is correct, man.

Speaker 1 14:13

I can't tell you how many times over the past almost decade. You know, we'll have somebody come in and they'll say that they, you know, watch such and such YouTube video and they want to figure out how to draw a bow like that, because they've been drawing a bow the wrong way their entire lives. And you know, I just try to encourage people not to jump off the cliff, you know, I mean it's obviously there's things that we want to do that will help prevent injury when drawing a bow, because you can put more strain on muscles than you should when you're doing that. But I mean, I'm not like you. So we work with people every day Well, this time of year, not necessarily every day, but most days and you know, sometimes we're teaching them how to shoot a bow for the very first time.

Proper Draw Technique and Form

Speaker 1 15:13

Sometimes we're working with somebody that's been shooting a bow for 20 years that has developed what I would refer to as bad habits, because they never really were taught what to do or what not to do, like. So we'll, we'll have, we'll have a guy come in, um, for instance, that, um, you know, we'll be setting a new bow up for them and they want us to put a peep in. They want to put a kisser on and they want to put a nose button on, and I'm like, good grief, you know. Okay, yeah, we can do all that. You know I'm not going to sit there and argue with them. We'll, we'll do it. You know that's they want all that stuff on their string, but it's like you know. So we have them, we sell them, we install them. It's a, it's a normal thing.

Speaker 1 16:21

But, um, and then we'll have, you know, like we had a guy come in a couple weeks ago and he's like he said man, I really feel like I'm not drawing my bow properly. And he drew his bow for us and you know, he really pulls hard across his chest, which is, you know, that's definitely putting some strain on some muscles. That could lead to some problems down the road. And that's what he was talking about. And I was like he said, what do I do? And I said man, listen, you shoot the best bow in the world to have this problem. He's like what are you talking about? I said you shoot a Matthews.

Speaker 4 16:58

I just knew you were going to say a Bowtech.

Speaker 1 17:00

Well, here's the thing If you're having a problem where you're wanting to change how you draw, the easiest way to kind of foster that change is to drop your poundage right. And I told him. I said, listen, take these 60-pound mods right here. Take three turns out of your limb bolts, Put these 60-pound mods on. It's still going to be your draw length, Everything's going to be the same. What in the world was that? Did a raccoon just attack you?

Speaker 2 17:31

no, did I have some noise on my end? Yeah, that was super loud. It sounded like a I'm not sure could have been a car coming by.

Speaker 1 17:39

Oh, I don't know, it sounds like something attacked you. But anyway, um we, um, you know. I told him. I said just drop your poundage and work on, work on that draw cycle, work on that form as you're drawing with a lower poundage, and then start working your way back up. You know, I said I mean it's you're, you're obviously you're not going to have your same impact point. So don't, don't do that. And then go out to your 60-yard target and sling an arrow because you're going to put an arrow in the dirt.

Speaker 1 18:09

But, stand five yards in front of your target and just go out there and just draw and shoot, don't draw and let back down. I mean you can do that a few times if you want to. You can make that part of your process, but the biggest thing you want to do is go through the mechanics of the shot and do everything, get into your anchor, do every part of your shot at that lower poundage and force yourself to engage those muscles that you know you need to be engaging and start building those muscles up. Guys will come in and they'll see. So, dub, he's 16 years old. He'll turn 17 in August. Well, he could shoot a 90-pound bow. Go ahead, come on, give us a comment.

Speaker 3 18:54

Technically. Technically, I got 102,. Was it Like right here?

Speaker 1 19:01

But it was a 30-and-a-half drawing.

Speaker 3 19:02

I can't yeah, you were out of room, so yeah, and like two, was it like?

Speaker 1 19:03

right here, but it was a 30 and a half drawing. I can't. Yeah, you, just you were. You were out of room, so yeah, it's like well, I've seen you shoot a 97 pound bow before yeah it was. You know it was like a 29 inch draw and you had enough left in the tank to get it all the way back. Roll that camera yeah so.

Speaker 1 19:18

But the only reason he's able to do that is because he's got those bow muscles tuned up, because we shoot bows every single day yeah, I have a video from when I was 12, drawing 70 pounds yeah super embarrassing.

Speaker 3 19:30

I never showed to anybody because I'm like yanking on the phone but I mean so there's a lot to be said about.

Speaker 1 19:36

If you use the right muscle groups, you know you're you're gonna be able to shoot more. But I think the goal is not necessarily being able to shoot more poundage, but being able to do something right so you're not going to cause injury down the road.

Speaker 2 19:52

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 19:56

There's an argument for all kinds of stuff in archery.

Speaker 1 20:00

You know, about what your anchor point should be and all this kind of stuff. I mean, you could go on YouTube right now and find 50 videos that are well done, that are going to tell you different things to do as far as an anchor point goes, and I'll tell you guys. I mean, y'all have heard me here in the shop before. I don't care where somebody anchors, I do not care, I just want you to be able to do except if you anchor below the deload yeah, that was weird.

Speaker 1 20:30

But all I care about is you being able to do something that's repeatable. You know that's, that's what's going to be able, that's what's going to lend itself to accuracy is being able to do something that's repeatable. So I mean, I really don't care what it looks like, I, I don't care if you've got your thumb behind your neck, your knuckle in your ear, your knuckle below your ear, your thumb on your cheek. I really don't care, you know, I just want you to be able to get it. Was that a car going by?

Speaker 1 21:02

Yes, yeah, that thing, a car going by. Yes, yeah, that thing sounded like a F-14. Tom Cruise just buzzed the tower there.

Speaker 2 21:11

I'll change my position here, okay.

Speaker 4 21:14

Christian. This is Wes. Do you see a lot of injuries because people do not shoot their bow year-round? Because people do not shoot their bow year-round, so they take that bow out.

Speaker 2 21:25

You know, two weeks before deer season and they start yanking on it and now they got issues. Yeah, absolutely, and I'll go back to the comment that John just made about Dub. In regards to he said you know he able to shoot a a heavy bow and draw a heavy bow because he's got those specific muscles tuned up. And the reason why I'm highlighting that is because what we have to know and understand is that drawing a bow, uh, places very, a very unique and specific stress on the, the muscles that're using, meaning that if you're not shooting your bow for a period of time, those muscles are in tendons, connective tissue joints as well. All those structures are unadapting, meaning that they are no longer as equipped or prepared to handle those unique stresses and demands that the bow places on us. So what ends up happening is someone hasn't shot for a period of time and they'll just jump full force back into shooting their bow. You know they'll go out and they haven't shot for six months and they'll shoot 50 arrows because they're excited Now sometimes and some people can get away with that and they'll be just fine, but there's a solid portion of the population, especially those who are not physically active in any other realm, where that is, like you've heard, it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Speaker 2 23:02

Well, that's like putting a pile of brick on the camel's back where it's a sudden surge of stress and load on these different structures that, again, the shoulders no longer have an adaptation to handle very well, and that's what will spark an overload injury or an overuse injury. And that's what will spark an overload injury or an overuse injury Versus, if we're shooting consistently, we're keeping the muscles, connective tissue, joints, adapted and prepared to handle those stresses and loads of the bow. It's very similar. If anybody in this conversation right now, or anybody listening right now, is not a runner and you went out and tried to run a half marathon, because your muscles, joints, connective tissue, don't have any recent experience of doing that, you're going to be crushed, right, I mean, you're just going to be incredibly sore, you're going to develop aches, you might develop some sort of irritation that turns into something more chronic, because those structures, again, were not adapted and had no prior or recent experience.

Speaker 2 24:13

So the key there is hey, you know, some of us aren't going to shoot our bows year round. That's just the way it is with archers. The key, though, is to gradually reintroduce the bow to ourselves. So if I haven't shot for a while, go out, shoot a half dozen arrows, maybe a dozen arrows, see how that feels. If it goes okay, then the next time that's where I would encourage somebody to maybe shoot maybe 15 arrows, see how that goes and feels, then maybe shoot 18. And kind of that gradual re-exposure to these structures so that they're able to start adapting to that again, versus getting this sudden surge of picking up the bow and trying to shoot for an hour where we accumulate all these arrows and then again for some people not all, but some people that can really trigger some issues that I see pretty commonly.

Speaker 4 25:12

Yeah, dub is fixing to turn 17. I'm 59 years old so I understand that lower poundage. I don't have to shoot 70, 80 pounds, that lower poundage, you know. I don't have to shoot 70, 80 pounds.

Speaker 2 25:28

I would rather be more comfortable in my shot process and shoot 60. Sure, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of value to that and listen.

Speaker 1 25:34

60 pounds will get it done oh yeah, I've killed.

Speaker 3 25:38

Oh yeah, not a lot of deer, but two deer with 60 pounds work just fine yeah yeah, the 70 pounds did perform better last season. I thought it did, but 60 pounds still killed deer. I do want to touch on one thing. I feel like people, when they go to let down, their muscles just completely relax and they just slam the bow forward.

Speaker 1 26:01

Yeah, it's not a controlled process usually yeah, I feel like that's a pretty.

Speaker 3 26:07

I feel like it plays a pretty big part in, you know, hunting and being, you know archery. Strong is being able to let down your bow smooth, because when you're in front, of a deer that walks behind a tree. You can't hold the bow back for any longer. You're gonna have to let down. I mean, if you're letting down and the arrow comes out of the bow.

Speaker 1 26:28

Seen that a million times or just bouncing all over the place, or whatever you're done yeah right that deer's gonna see you, hear you yeah so that's something.

Speaker 1 26:38

When we have somebody testing out, you know, test driving a new bow, and they'll kind of the way we do it is, or what we like to do is get them to shoot several different bows. You know from several different manufacturers, so they know what's new on the market. You know, because the reality is there's less than 5% of the archery of bow shooters that are buying a new bow every single year. You know so. So why the bow manufacturers keep, you know, launching a new bow every single year? I really, I really don't understand. But but anyway, yeah.

Speaker 1 27:16

Well, there's a lot to be said about becoming efficient with your manufacturing process, and when you're constantly trying to pick off low-hanging fruit, that's not very efficient. So, um, yeah, but anyway, like I said, that's a conversation for another time. But one of the things that I always encourage people to do. You know they're always just shooting the bow and you know they're closing their eyes while they're shooting because they're trying to feel the, you know, feel extra vibration, or feel what it feels like as they're releasing the shot or as they're drawing, or whatever. So I'll let them shoot a few times and then I encourage them to let down. And I mean you'd be. Maybe not, but you'd probably be surprised at how many people are like no, I don't want to let it down, I don't like letting it go down.

Speaker 1 28:05

It hurts my elbow when I do that or or whatever. But I mean, like what dub was saying, that is a real part of hunting, you know, is being able to let your bow down. You know. I mean we're trying to get within. We're trying to get within 30 yards of an animal that god has given some very unique and specific tools to stay alive. Right, absolutely so. That means so.

Speaker 1 28:32

So he gave him, he gave him four really unique things. Number one they are super fast and they can move extremely fast. We've all seen the videos where somebody shoots and the deer, you know, drops a foot and a half. You know, just because they heard something. And you know people will say they were jumping the string or what. I don't know what they were jumping at, but you know, regardless, they jumped and they and and you know, in a split second they hit the ground and load up those, those hams, and they disappear. You know, in a split second they hit the ground and load up those hams and they disappear, you know. So they're super fast, they have incredible vision, they have incredible hearing and they have uncanny smelling abilities. So those are the four tools that God gave to them to preserve their lives and be able to live and we're trying to beat all four of them at once.

Speaker 3 29:25

You know they're brown, and most of the stuff we hunt around is pine straw.

Speaker 1 29:29

Yeah, yeah, and their, their color is not the best, but but, but you know, you, you think about that. We're trying to beat all four of those highly tuned senses, you know, and we're we're doing it while moving a lot. You know, and we're we're doing it while moving a lot. You know, it's not like we're just taking a gun and sliding it over and pointing at them and pulling the trigger. That's not a knock against gun hunters. I want you hunting, I don't care how you hunt, I want you to, want you to get out there and do it. It's, it's, it's a wonderful thing to do it.

Speaker 1 30:00

You know, one of my favorite scriptures is from Acts 10, where it said rise, peter, kill and eat. That should be one of every hunter's favorite verses, but anyway, um, so, so we look at that and you know, encouraging them to, to go through the whole process of letting the bow down and seeing what it feels like and understanding. You know that there's a, there's a way to control that and some, some bows are easier to control than others. You know because of where the pressure is in that, um, in the cam design, of how it. You know how it pulls against you when you start letting pressure off and sometimes you know for um specifically, let's say, you have a, a bow, that's got a compound bow, that's got a 90 percent let off.

Speaker 1 30:53

Man, it feels like you're having to push the string forward yeah, and once and once you get that cam moving, like once you get past that let off, you go from what feels like zero to, you know, from zero to 70 really quick, essentially, is what's happening and uh, so being able to regain control of that really fast and and just allow that that string to to settle back down, um, is a challenge, and and most of the time when we get people to do that, they're like oh, I don't know if I like that 90% let off or not. You know, uh, which you know most most bows now, not all, but most bows. Now you're able to adjust that you know, right at the cam you can adjust between you know, either 85 to 75 or 90 to 70, or 90 to 80% let off or whatever. I know, like with the PSE bows, we can adjust it from a 90 to 80% let off, so you've got 90, 85, or 80.

Speaker 1 31:58

So I never encourage somebody to shoot a 90% let off bow. I think it, just while it may feel comfortable when you're in your back wall, I think it lends itself to pretty sloppy form. You get too relaxed in your back wall because you're not having to keep pressure on it, which can cause all kinds of issues which can cause all kinds of issues. So I always kind of advise against shooting such a great letoff. But anyway. So, christian, one of the other injuries that I've we've talked a lot about shoulders, because that is, and should be, the big muscle group that we're using when we're drawing a bow, and it's not just our drawing arm, it's also our bow arm right. We need to be able to lock that arm out and have something nice and firm to be able to draw against. So that matters too. But I see people hurting their elbows shooting a bow.

Speaker 2 33:03

And.

Speaker 1 33:03

I know I mentioned that when you know somebody said, well, I don't like letting down, it hurts my elbow or whatever. Um, yeah, what, what is causing that? From uh, from, uh, you know, from your perspective, you're looking at it from uh, from an anatomical standpoint of what's going on in the elbow. You know, I've, I've had people, um, I've had people refer to it. Almost the way they describe it it it sounds like tennis elbow. So so what's going on there? And and I know what caused that with that guy, he he had uh, well, no, there was a couple guys that had this issue. One of them, I know he had not been shooting and he went out and shot like 50 times one afternoon and man, it ripped his arm. I mean, he was so sore to the point that I'm pretty sure he got like a tennis elbow brace that he was wearing around. So what's going on there when you start having that pain right there?

Speaker 2 34:02

Yeah, that's a good question. Like you said, the shoulders, you know, are the primary mover, the primary place where action is taking place in the draw. That's where most of the movement occurs. But those elbows are kind of secondary, almost like a middleman, essentially a connection between the majority of your body and then out to the bow. Those elbows serve as a middleman and the best way to think about the issues you're talking about in the elbow is to picture a bucket, and what I mean by that is a bucket as you're picturing. It can hold a specified amount of water and if we try to fill that bucket with too much water, of course the bucket overflows. The bucket has a capacity. The bucket does not function well if its capacity is surpassed or overloaded.

Speaker 2 35:06

The elbows and, more specifically, the connective tissue, the tendons in the elbow are the same way, in the sense that when somebody has elbow pain, elbow soreness, elbow discomfort related to artery, the vast majority of those cases are a result of those tendons and connective tissue in the elbow becoming overwhelmed or overloaded by too much stress, too much load, too much repetition, just like that metaphor of the bucket. Now, the draw elbow is different than the bow arm elbow. The draw elbow has two main factors that can, and often do, overwhelm the connective tissue and the tendons of the we have to bend the elbow. That's part of the movement where some of the forearm muscles and some of the upper arm muscles, like the bicep, are allowing us to bend that elbow, which is a part of what allows us to draw that bow. Now, the repetitive bending of that elbow to draw can often start to overwhelm and overload those tissues in the elbow.

Speaker 2 36:26

The second, and often the bigger cause is the gripping of the release. What we have to remember is that every time we're drawing a bow, we are depending on the type of release we're shooting. Every time we draw a bow, we are holding, let's say, the draw weight's 70 pounds. We're holding 70 pounds or so in the finger, in a couple of fingers. If you're shooting, maybe a three-finger thumb button, maybe you're shooting a three-finger, four-finger hinge, maybe you're shooting a two-finger back tension release. And the reason why that's important is because we have to understand that everything we do with our hand affects the elbow. As you guys are sitting there, anybody who's sitting there listening, if you make a fist and then you extend your fingers, make a fist, extend your fingers, you're going to see all the muscles up near the elbow light up. Why is that? Because most, or a lot of those muscles originate up at the elbow, meaning that's their anchor point, and then they run down the forearm into the hand. So as we draw and repeatedly draw and hold that bow, with the release, those tissues and tendons of the elbow are under constant stress, constant load.

Speaker 2 37:57

Now there's a lot of different factors into who's going to be susceptible to those elbow issues and muscles of the elbow, so to speak. Then that's what triggers some of this inflammation, this discomfort, this soreness, just like the example of the gentleman you described, who wasn't shooting, picked up his bow, shot a bunch. Well, that's a clear-cut, perfect example of overflowing that bucket, so to speak. Clear-cut, perfect example of overflowing that bucket, so to speak. But that's an acute example, meaning here now, right at this very session. A lot of times it can be chronic. Where it's, you know, over a period of time, that bucket's getting overflowed, those tendons are getting overwhelmed. Now the same thing can happen in the bow arm elbow, but it's a little bit different. The same thing can happen in the bow arm elbow, but it's a little bit different, a little bit more nuanced in the bow arm elbow because we do not have the same bending of the elbow that we have in the draw arm. That causes problems on the draw arm. Rather, we have kind of the opposite. Whether somebody shoots with a fully straight elbow, somebody shoots with a slight bend, regardless. Sometimes too much time under tension in that stress and sometimes that elbow will not tolerate that, will not handle that and the bucket will be overflowed, so to speak.

Speaker 2 39:30

Another component to that can be the grip that an individual is using and not related to.

Speaker 2 39:39

You know they're holding it in a way that's not going to make them accurate.

Speaker 2 39:42

We're not concerned with that in regards to this issue. What we're more so looking at is sometimes people will grip a bow in a way where their wrist is in full extension, where that's if you have your hand out in front of you and you pull your knuckles back towards yourself, you're going to see those muscles light up on the forearm running up into your elbow. And if somebody is excessive or exacerbates that wrist extension when they are gripping and holding their bow same idea. Gripping and holding their bow same idea. Those muscles, tendons and tissues are under repetitive, continual stress and at a certain point it can overwhelm them beyond what they're willing to handle, which starts the irritation, some inflammation, some aggravation of those structures as well. So it's a little bit different from draw elbow to blow arm elbow, but the concept remains the same that it is an overwhelming and an overloading of those tissues beyond what they're willing to handle, just like overflowing a bucket beyond what it is willing to handle and beyond the capacity it has.

Speaker 1 40:57

Got it.

Speaker 4 40:59

Christian. We've talked a lot about elbows and shoulders and wrists. What is your core body strength? What role does that play in having good form when I shoot my bow?

Speaker 2 41:16

Your question was related to the core, as in like the center of the body.

Speaker 4 41:20

Correct.

Speaker 2 41:22

Sure. So the core, or the word I just used there, the center, is exactly what it sounds, in the sense that, just like the core or the frame of our truck or the riser of a bow, the core, the center of the body, is what everything else operates off of. So if you think about the riser of a bow, that is meant to be the stable, solid centerpiece that then the cams operate off of the cables, the string, you know, even the sight and stabilizers are obviously attached to it. So we need that solid centerpiece to be essentially a foundation. And that's a good comparison in my mind to what we need to see for the archer, where the core of the body is what the draw arm is operating off of. So a simple way to think about it is maybe, if there's a metaphor that some people like to use, If you picture trying to fire a cannon out of a canoe, right, Since that canoe is not solid, it's not stable. When you fire that cannon, uh, it's going to cause a big problem because there's no foundation there, right? Similarly to the archer, we're, we're, we're drawing that bow, we're, we're pressing into that bow, we're pulling're drawing that bow, we're pressing into that bow, we're pulling against that bow. All of this needs to be executed on a solid foundation, so not a canoe. Instead we want to put that cannon on a concrete flap so that it has something solid, stable again to operate off of.

Speaker 2 43:12

So the main purpose of the core for the Archer is a braced, stable, solid foundation. Now that is largely related to, we'll say, down into the hip and what we would traditionally think about as the core, like the midsection to the lower back. That's a big part of this solid, stable foundation. The lower back, that's a big part of this solid, stable foundation. But then on top of that, what we'd say like the upper half of the torso, the upper half of the back, there's some range of motion that needs to occur there, which is what we call the thoracic spine. So there's obviously a need for movement as well on top of the solid foundation. Otherwise we would be like a tin man trying to draw a bow. So there's, I think, a solid, stable foundation throughout midsection, lower back, core, hips, and then on top of that we have some range of motion through the upper half of the spine. That then encourages, fosters and allows the scapulas, the shoulder girdle, shoulder joints and arms to move and function the way that they need to.

Speaker 4 44:25

I was just thinking from a bow hunting standpoint. You know, if I'm in a tree and I'm 18, 20 foot tall up in that tree and that deer comes walking by and he walks by at five yards, now I have to put myself in that bent over position to draw the bow, yep, yep, yep.

Speaker 2 44:49

So that's where we utilize what we call a hinge at the hip, a hinge meaning, uh, like a door hinge or the binding of a book, where we are creating a hinge between the lower body and the spine and torso.

Speaker 2 45:07

Because, as you guys probably know, and some of us have seen, we don't want to just be rounding forward and kind of leaving our legs, our spine where it's at and just kind of dropping our arms and angling down.

Speaker 2 45:23

We want to, at an equal rate, sit our hips back or shift our hips back while our shoulders lean forward and maintain that T position forward and maintain that T position so that, whether I'm standing upright or whether I'm hinging to make that five-yard shot, the spine and the arms are as close to a T as possible.

Speaker 2 45:46

And the only way to maintain or manage that is by hinging and offsetting the hip, where I mentioned sitting the hip back, because the spine sits on top of the hip and that's the bottom part of the T, so as hips sit back, torso leans forward, maintaining that T position than what most people realize. If you're truly making a steep shot, where you're really going to be folding quite a bit at the hips and it's challenging to do so. That's another added layer of complexity that involves different types of strength and stability throughout the midsection to be able to hold and maintain that position and execute a shot from that position. The midsection to be able to hold and maintain that position and execute a shot from that position. But definitely add some more challenges and some more involvement throughout the we'll say, lower two-thirds of the body. For sure.

Speaker 4 46:47

And I think that's where a lot of archers make the mistake in practicing. I mean, everybody can make a 30-yard shot standing on the ground, shooting at a target flat. They don't practice from an elevated position.

Speaker 2 47:00

Right, right, absolutely. Yeah, you have to practice the way that you're going to play, and if you're somebody who primarily hunts from elevation, you are definitely missing out if you're not incorporating that, uh, at least a little bit uh from, or at least a little bit before the season starts. Uh, you know, I I think that once you get proficient with that I don't think it necessarily has to be like in every practice session type of thing, uh, but it's definitely, as an old coach once said to me, it's definitely a groove that you want to grease or a gear that you want to grease, in the sense that, uh, it really is a unique skill to shoot well from, from elevation, to at least to do it well and to do it consistently too. Um, so I I think that, to your point there, it's a big bonus, or really I should say a necessity, to practice from elevation at least for a portion of your practice before the season starts, if you are going to largely be hunting from elevation once your season starts.

Speaker 3 48:14

Yeah, I think one of the most difficult shots you can make on a deer is like when it's right under you. I had somebody come in the other day. He missed a deer because it was so close and he didn't know what to do. So he just put the pin where he wanted to hit and missed it.

Speaker 2 48:30

Yeah, yeah, In my opinion, if somebody's hunting from elevation, there's absolutely such a thing as too close. As far as you know, I don't in my mind. If I'm hunting from elevation, I don't want that deer to be as close as possible. I want that deer to be, you know, somewhere between 10 and 25 yards. 10 and 20 yards, ideally, Absolutely, Because closer than that is definitely more difficult and a worse shot opportunity than something being out at 20, 25, 30.

Speaker 1 49:07

Yeah, yeah, it can be a challenge making that shot at five steps, there's no question about that. So when does your whitetail season come in up there, christian?

Speaker 2 49:23

It comes in October. I believe it's October 4th this year. It's the first Saturday in October, that is for the majority of Pennsylvania. Typically every year I go and do some suburban whitetail hunting down around Pittsburgh, which opens mid-September, so it's kind of like a nice little way to kick my season off a little bit earlier. Yeah.

Speaker 3 49:51

So what's that like?

Speaker 1 49:52

doing some suburban hunting in Pittsburgh. Tell me what that's like Doing some suburban hunting in.

Speaker 2 49:57

Pittsburgh. Tell me what that's like. Well, I hunt I guess what I'd say on the outskirts of Pittsburgh. It's a lot of fun. It's very different.

Speaker 2 50:08

One of the main things I like about it is that the deer densities are much higher in the sense that, due to the development of different areas into housing and to commercial-type property, the woodlots and just the areas that deer can inhabit have been constricted, which of course forces the deer to be more dense in the areas where they're able to inhabit and it can present some exciting hunts in the sense of deer numbers and opportunities.

Speaker 2 50:48

So that is obviously an enjoyable thing when you get to see a good number of deer when you're hunting. The other thing that I like is, versus what I hunt in around here in central Pennsylvania, you are really. You are really or I should say the deer are really influenced by their travel, is influenced by man-made structures and man-made types of landscapes, in the sense that you know they might be really navigating around fences and between housing developments and skirting around golf courses and different things like that, where those types of structures and landscapes you know really almost forced here to travel a certain way. So instead of maybe trying to read the landscape, for topography or, you know, changes in agriculture versus timber or different types of edges that you might in a more rural setting, those more suburban type settings. You're really having to take into account how man has altered the landscape and then in turn how that affects deer movement and deer behavior too. So it's definitely a unique, unique challenge, but a fun one christian.

Speaker 2 52:20

I'm sure you've seen the seek one, guys that hunt here in atlanta I was up there this weekend and I'll tell you, your mouth just salivates when you're riding around looking at those places.

Speaker 4 52:30

I stayed with a buddy of mine. He's got like 1.5 acres and then that behind his house opens up to, you know, 30 or 40 acres of nothing but white oak trees and creek bottoms, and you just oh yeah oh, I'd love to sit up here for a little while yeah, yeah, exactly that's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 52:52

So what? What are the like in that area that you're hunting outside of pittsburgh? Are there, you know? Are there pretty big bucks there, or is it just a target rich environment that you enjoy going to hunt at and get a few weeks head?

Speaker 2 53:08

start I'm strictly and solely going to basically jumpstart on essentially acquiring meat for the year, where I set a goal for myself each year as far as the amount of meat that I feel my family and I will need to sustain us.

Speaker 2 53:34

Through the year we were able to pretty much entirely feed our family in regards to meat off of venison that I hunt and then I also raise meat chickens here on our homestead. So my main goal you know 90% of it is related to that meat acquirement. Main goal you know 90 of it is is related to that meat requirement and, um, going down a little bit early, a couple weeks before the main pennsylvania season starts, is an opportunity to uh just capitalize on that and kind of get that going. However, uh, related to your question about, um, bigger deer, bigger bucks, uh, yeah, actually, believe it, it or not, according to the record books and the data there, allegheny County, which is the county that Pittsburgh resides in, largely the center of, has the most record books bucks throughout history in that suburban urban county and I think the reason for that is because, number one, you can't rifle hunt in that county because of the development there.

Speaker 2 54:45

So of course, when you can't rifle hunt, not only do you have fewer people in the woods but you also have less effective means to control the population.

Speaker 2 54:56

But then, in addition to that, you know as kind of backwards as it seems sometimes a lot of times in those suburban and urban areas, because it can be difficult to either find places to hunt or maybe the opportunities don't lend themselves to hunting, based on land ownership or layout of the land.

Speaker 2 55:19

I think there's a lot of pockets in those types of areas where deer can essentially grow old and stay safe, provided that they don't get killed in a vehicle accident. So I think between those two things there are a lot of very impressive deer that come out of that county and I think really sometimes just access and finding and getting a place to hunt is the hardest part to be able to pursue that. But it's a really neat example of how whitetails can and do thrive in a variety of different habitats and landscapes and they're, you know, really one of those animals that have largely benefited from human intrusion and human manipulation of the landscape. You know animals like them coyotes, canadian geese. You know there's a couple of those select few animals the whitetails are one of them that, just due to the different things we've done, they are flourishing in these different types of places and it's neat to be able to see them have that adaptability and place their area around pittsburgh like that yeah, that's pretty cool.

Consistent Practice Tips for Success

Speaker 1 56:42

So our season in georgia comes in on september 13th, so we've got less than 90 days for everybody to get ready to uh, to get out and get after it. What advice would you give to people? So I know you already, you know, ease yourself back into it. So let's say we've got, we've got somebody listening right now that hasn't shot their bow since January. All right, yeah, first off, shame on you. We know who you are, we know who you are. Don't wait another.

Speaker 1 57:12

You know, 75 days before you shoot, pull your bow out and out. And you know, let's bring it in, let's go through it, make sure things are good. You know what wasn't working right last year and you know, I promise you putting your bow in the case and sliding it under the bed or hanging it in your gun cabinet, it it hasn't healed since January. All right, if something was wrong, it's still wrong. So let's get it in here and let's get it fixed. But from that standpoint, what are some things that you would encourage people to do, knowing we've got 80-something days until the season opens.

Speaker 2 57:56

Yeah, I think the most helpful thing that I could share and encourage people to do is to create create a way that is accessible and has the fewest barriers to entry, to shooting consistently. And what I mean by that is if you have to drive to a range to shoot, if you have to pull your bow out from under your bed and walk downstairs and walk a couple hundred yards outside to go shoot, or whatever it may be that has has some some obstacles to you shooting consistently. Find and create a way to work around that, because that, that, I think, is a lot of the times. Why people wait so long to shoot or don't shoot more consistently is because there's too many, too many barriers, too many obstacles that lead them to end up saying, yeah, I just don't shoot more consistently is because there's too many, too many barriers, too many obstacles that lead them to end up saying, yeah, I just don't feel like messing with that, I don't have time for that. And it may be something as simple as putting a target in your basement and shooting from five yards away, or putting a target in your garage and just blank bailing. You know, shoot, shoot, just just shoot a couple of arrows, three arrows, uh, from from a couple of yards away, uh, they're. They're in almost all all cases, a little bit is better than none. You know, even if somebody wants to shoot one arrow a day in their spare bedroom, just to pick up their bow, feel that, find their anchor point, go through a smooth, controlled, conscious release, um, any way, you can do it.

Speaker 2 59:43

For me myself, I've got a, I've got a small barn here on my property that's, uh, around 45 feet in length, um, and it's it's just, uh, you know, maybe maybe 40 yards from my house. So a lot of times I'll just leave my bow hanging up in there. That way, you know, when I go out to take care of the chickens or I go out for a short walk and work break, whatever it might be, pick up my bow, shoot an arrow or two, and I've got a little bit of repetition. So that's going to look different for everybody. The key is to understand that, again, a little bit is better than nothing and there's no shooting that is not valuable, meaning that any shooting you can do is valuable, whether it's one arrow, whether it's 30 arrows, whether it's two yards. Valuable whether it's one arrow, whether it's 30 arrows, whether it's two yards away, whether it's 50 yards away, any amount of shooting can be valuable if you treat it that way and approach it that way.

Speaker 2 1:00:47

But the key is creating an opportunity for yourself to shoot if you truly want to do it. You know, and that's um, that that's something that you kind of just have to, uh kind of have to have a talk with yourself. You know, about if, if I really want to make this work there, there's always a way to make it work. I've, I've had clients again targets in a spare bedroom, targets in a hallway, uh, whatever it might be, even if it's just blank bailing to put all the excuses and reasons why you shouldn't do it, reasons why it won't work aside, as long as it's safe with 99% of the time you can make it safe then that removal of the barriers to entry and start shooting and consistently shoot can be worked around. And then that's where the door opens to you know, hey, shoot frequently, get yourself on a schedule, start with just a few arrows, gradually build yourself up.

Speaker 2 1:01:53

You know, all those concepts and details are good and important, but none of them matter if somebody looks at their bow, looks at the clock and says you know, I don't have the time, I don't have the energy. We have to find a way to work around that if you truly want to be more consistent, because I know I've talked to a lot of people that they say you know, man, I live in an apartment and I have to drive to the range. I can only get there once a week. Hey, shoot, like I said, target wherever you can put it, that's safe, even a couple yards away. There's always a way to work around it. Or 99% of the time there is. And that's going to open up that huge, wide door for you to be able to do consistently, do frequently, door for you to be able to do consistently, do frequently, start to build your mental processes, your physical ability back. And that method of making sure or actively creating an opportunity to do so is the first step and arguably the most important step.

Speaker 1 1:02:53

Yeah, yeah. So I'm a huge proponent of cold shots, so I don't care. I mean, okay, yeah, it's, it's great if you get to go out and shoot 50 times or if you can go and and shoot for an entire afternoon or whatever. But when you're in a hunting situation you're you're counting on one shot most of the time. You know it's. It's.

Speaker 1 1:03:19

It's not that often that we get follow-up shots, especially hunting whitetail and yeah, so I'm a big proponent of cold shots. Which means three shot groups in my mind is uh, is you know those are, those are. That's something that I use for myself, you know, to see. Okay, and my arrows are numbered right, so I'll shoot three shots and I'll go and pull them and I'll see how I did on all three of them, and sometimes my first shot's the best one, sometimes my first shot's the worst one in the three-shot group, sometimes my first shot's the worst one in the three-shot group. But I'm doing that consistently at 60 yards um throughout the week to get to that point where you know I am very comfortable with what my process is and everything, and and I I'm not going to say never, but I could almost say I'm never, ever going to take a 60-yard shot on a whitetail?

Speaker 1 1:04:20

Why Right? That's why I'm not saying never. I mean it could happen, you know. I mean everything could be just right and perfect and I could send one. But you know, when it's time for me to take that 20-yard shot, it's going to be a chip shot. You know, when it's time for me to take that 20-yard shot, it's going to be a chip shot. You know it's going to mean nothing to it. I'm not even going to have to think about it.

Speaker 3 1:04:41

Unless you hit a tree with your arm.

Speaker 1 1:04:43

Yeah, yeah, that has happened, but anyway, all right, man Well, christian, we really appreciate you jumping on with us. You know, talking through some of the stuff that you've learned over the course of having this business going and the opportunity that you've had to help people, I know there are some things that you've said this morning that are going to help some folks that are going to listen to this, and if you don't hear anything else that we say today, just listen. We encourage you to get out and shoot. Get out there and shoot your bow and put in the time to to, um, you know, to enjoy your hobby. You know, part of part of the, the gift of hunting, is the preparation, in my opinion, you know it's, it's a fellowship with other, with friends that you get to go hunting with. With that you get to tell stories to. Whether they're completely truthful or not is always, you know, up up for discussion, but, um, the whole, the whole thing is, is part of it. So, get out there and, uh, get out there and shoot your bow, right, don't?

Speaker 2 1:05:52

y'all agree I don't have three people with me here I agree you agree okay?

Speaker 1 1:05:58

good, all right, I'm gonna kill it.