Kerry Callenbach | On Finding and Thriving in Your Dream Graduate Role

Kerry Callenbach has worked in HR for over 18 years in professional services, banking, health, sports, and tech.

Graduate Theory Newsletter
https://www.graduatetheory.com/27-kerry-callenbach

All links in one place
https://linktr.ee/graduatetheory

Direct Links
https://www.graduatetheory.com
https://www.graduatetheory.com/buzzsprout
https://www.graduatetheory.com/instagram
https://www.graduatetheory.com/youtube

Content
00:00 Kerry Callenbach
00:19 Intro
01:26 Kerry having 20,000+ applications at Deloitte
03:33 How does the application process typically look?
06:48 How many people actually get to the final interview stage from the initial application process?
10:26 What steps can people take to improve their application?
14:47 Tailor Your Application
16:51 What Mistakes do Graduates make when applying for roles?
22:56 Traits of Successful Graduates
30:42 What would Kerry change about Graduate Programs?
34:38 Kerry's Advice for Graduates
38:24 Contact Kerry
39:24 Outro

Transcript

Kerry: 0:00

as a graduate or someone early near Korea, that your, your job is, is to learn right. And to learn from others. So I think being open and comfortable with feedback is also a really, really important one as well

James: 0:19

Hello, and welcome to graduate theory. Today's guest has worked in HR for over 18 years in professional services, banking, health, sports, and now tech she's a former nurse and professional athlete and passionate about developing people to be their best. Please welcome Carrie kallenbach.

Kerry: 0:43

hi, James water. What have intro? I was wondering whether you were really talking about maiden.

James: 0:48

No, it's amazing what you've managed to achieve. And certainly like you've had exposure in human resources across a wide number of domains and had some really interesting experiences that I'm excited to chat to you about today. A place I wanted to start was you were telling me before the episode, That you used to walk into Deloitte and you're in the Australia, like managing the work across australia and we had one year where you saved 20,000 applications for graduate positions. I'd love to just dive into this story. And then here you have crazy. That was and just all the aspects of this. Yeah, I'd love to hear, you know, what, what year was

Kerry: 1:26

What a great place to start. So I started I worked at Deloitte for, Just under 10 years or just story about around there and started being in graduate recruitment and, and sort of got to a point where I'm looking at from a national perspective for Deloitte Australia and I mean, big, full global consultancy. It was a phenomenal place to be able to get a really good grounding on graduate recruitment neoprene. Graduates play I guess, you know, in a work ecosystem and also some of the richness that you can get from being in, in be places like that, but being, be places like that does mean that it's got a great brand and a great reputation. So, you know, back then you'd be out at the craze that you knew you'd be out of. Um, University society events, and we could all meet in person still. I think that's starting to happen now and sorry, you would meet a lot of people along the way. And in that particular year, it was it was just a large intake year. I think. Bringing IIN. I want to say, I think it was around five or 600 vacationers and graduates across Australia. So that led to us, obviously having a really large number of applications as well. The Rawlings had changed as well recently with the international students, which meant that now we could actually look at international students. With visas as well, which we hadn't been able to do before. So yes, we received 20,000 just over 20,000 applications. And back then we had really strict timelines as well. We open and close applications. Screened them all by certain date, we try to honestly get them all done within three to four days. And then we would start our recruitment process with it, with the group assessments. So it was a team, any Thai team. They were a team of 12 of us and we would call'em up. Experienced interview is from each of the different service lines to come and help us screen or use applications. Sorry. Every single application gets looked at and rejected or.

James: 3:31

Yeah. wow.

Kerry: 3:32

So at the beginning of it.

James: 3:33

So suddenly, wow. That's pretty incredible. And then kind of, what does that look like? Because there are all these steps now kind of when you're applying, where you get to go through like the automated testing, like the video interview and that kind of stuff. So like, does, does everyone do those things or like how does it kind of work in terms of narrowing people down? Kind of, when did I start getting kind of okay. Getting the nose or.

Kerry: 3:58

Really good question. And I think the digitalization of recruitment has become far more prevalent in the last couple of years with the introduction of things like video interviewing you know, you complete the, the, coding test before you, you we'll talk to you you know, all of those things and really what they are ultimately, it's a screening tool, right. It's, it's a way to filter candidates out. So every employer will look for something. Ron and the best way you can determine what are they looking for is two things. When you jump on the website, most, most, employee is a pretty transparent about what makes a good candidate. What makes someone successful in their company? Sorry..Have a look at things like values or principles as well because attributes and capabilities will be intrinsically tied back through behaviors to values or principles as well. So they're really good. Starting places to go. What does good look like? What are the things that they're going to be screening for or filtering for in an application? But ultimately it is that that will be using it to determine whether they take you through to the next step. So your first point is always your resume or your CV, right? I kind of say that's like your invitation to, to come into someone's house. Is, it, you, you pop it in the postbox and that's their determination. Hey, you know what I like what I see, I'd like to, I'd like to pursue this conversation. So the first thing I always say is, make sure you've got a CV. Some people still ask for cover letters. I hope we might move on for that, but make sure they, they they're tied back to the. The success factors or the values of the principles. Are you referring to them in your cover letter? Have you highlighted them or where you may have demonstrated them prior in, at university, at your work at your volunteer at church at sport, make sure that they are tied back into your application. Once you've got through that one, obviously then you'll then have your different. To what people look for. So whether it's a coding test, whether it's an interview whether it is you know, a inbox, tray, inbox, tray, exercise, they will. all then be filtering. Your application based upon your ability to perform or show attributes to a certain level. So for example, in a video interview, there'll be looking for communication skills. How do you think on your fate, how you know, or they might ask specific behavioral questions. so it's basically trying to shorten the all, you know, are you the, the time that they would spend to at a later point by looking in assessing those attributes earlier on Does that kind of help. So I think that the process will depend on the employer, right? But each stage is ultimately a filtering or a screening screening process for those attributes and capabilities, both technical and behavioral

James: 6:48

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And what's what kind of numbers, like, I'm just curious, like, would we, would we be talking about in terms of like how many people let's say percentages, maybe I getting positive video interview into them? Cause I'm guessing somebody, usually some kind of group assessment then, or like some kind of more personal experience once you've done Like that. Like how many people are kind of getting to that stage?

Kerry: 7:13

Yeah, that. was one of the most. so after questions or answers, I would get a lot on campus. And here's the reality E there is a number right. And it will be determined on how many places they have in the program. So for example, if I take the 20,001, don't quote me on these. Exactly. And I can't remember exactly how many they were, but we would take, I think, you know, I'll say 500 grads that year out of 20,000 applications would probably screen it down to about. And then from there we would get a phone screen and we would probably narrow that down to maybe seven, 600. Right. And then through there, you'd get the filtering process through there, So every stage is cutoff and how that's determined is generally from the prior year. So what happens your team will sit down and say, oh, okay, last year we took 10 graduates. We brought 20 people through the process cause we had a 50% decline rate. So knowing we have a 50% decline rate next year, we know we're going to have to bring at least 20 candidates through. If we got. get 10 graduate CCS. So it is actually all based upon decline rates from previous seeds.

James: 8:23

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I don't really like some people I know that are out there, like getting multiple offers and they'd have to decline these kinds of things. You know, often, often people are kind of the reverse of that, web. if I have to have one that I like, they get a yes at the end. But no, I certainly, that's definitely something to think about.

Kerry: 8:44

And look, that's be a big accompanies. You smell the companies might be a little different, right? Smaller or medium size, just startups. They can be really different. They're they're much more I used someone we can work with. Right. And so the technical is important. Don't get me wrong. But when you've got a smaller team where you go a smaller company working closely with someone for eight, nine hours a day, you kind of want to know, You get along with them. Right. And, and I'm going to prefer my, my. My, my boss at at mantle group, Caroline Hinshaw has an airport test and her airport test is if you were stuck in an airport with that person for four hours, would you want to just get on the first plane home or you'd be like, cool. That's okay. I feel really, really great about it. And I think when you're getting to a small place, that airport test is super important. So the bigger companies will use pharma. I think it's sophisticated or advanced recruitment screening filtering, and make it can be brutal. I'll be really honest. You know, what I mean? it wouldn't get to the final point. It can come down to things such as attention to detail, grammar, spelling. On applications. I would always get applications where I would have, you know, applying to Deloitte, but I'd have one of the other big four brand names on it and that's like height. Right. We know you're applying everywhere. And and I think he'd be pretty silly to think that people aren't applying for multiple jobs, but ultimately if it then came down to two candidates, right. And both had performed exceptionally well through the. process, you do have to go what what's going to be to do. Right. And it kind of can come down. Unfortunately it can come down to really minor things like spelling and grammar and attention to detail.

James: 10:26

Yeah. I'd love to continue that kind of what CA what things can people do to Like having pet a chance to get to the end of sort of these processes, because you know, there is a lot of automation and things like that. Now, you know, what, like half the people kind of sit, like set themselves up through this process to have a better chance of getting into the end.

Kerry: 10:48

Yeah, I think that is such a good point. And, and, and I think throughout my time in, and we've spoken about as well and why I've sort of done things a little bit differently at managerial groupies. I think sometimes we get a tendency. When you look at how many roles you need to recruit or bring through is we forget to humanize the process, right? And, and it's brutal going through a recruitment. It's not nice. You have to you have to stand there and talk about yourself and. you know, put yourself up on a pedestal. And that's not easy for a lot of people to do. And it's not a natural thing. We're not natural at talking about ourselves to others to say how amazing we are. Right. It feels a bit funny. Sorry. I think a couple of things I would actually go my first one. Get comfortable with your own elevator pitch. Right? What is it? What is it why you so think about how you would talk about yourself and what you're really good at or what you're passionate about. You know, or you to, to somewhat, so practice your elevator pitch. The best people you can do it too. Quite honestly like your mom, your dad partner because they'll give you the most brutal feedback, right? They've got nothing to lose. You're still going to love them. Even if they say something cost. Sorry. I think that that would be my first point. The second one is see when you can, if possible. Humanized the process, go to events, go to meet ups, go to online seminars, try to meet people from the company to get a bit of feel for it. I honestly, every time we run a sort of campaign it I'll, I'll, get people from the business message me. Hi, I just met this person or this person reached out to me on LinkedIn. I had a really good chat with them. And and So you do you go, okay, great. Your Joe's recommended James. So I'm going to have a look for James his application now. So referral is always a really, really good thing. So reach out, go go chat with people from the company, go, to those events, go to those meet ups and see if you can introduce yourself. We'll get to get to chat with someone from the company. I think the third one is Tyler, your replication, right? Every company is different. Everyone is unique. And so really make sure that you represent that and you cover it up or your application that you've demonstrated. You've done some research about the company, right? That there's an alignment between what they do and what you want to do or where you want to work. Right. And I think that's really, really important. So for example you know, a bigger corporate company we'll have you traditional hierarchies and your structures and processes and policies in plights. If someone was to write about how policies and hierarchies is really important for them to advance their career and they applied to manual. It wouldn't work because we don't have any of those things. I don't have any HR policies. We have no performance reviews. We have no hierarchy. So you've got to tailor your application to represent one. You've done some research, but actually it also aligns to what you want to do. That's really, really important because we will look for those things. So those annoying stock standard questions you have to put on an application, they get. They get. read, because it helps us look to go, actually, you know what I can say that James actually is okay with a flat structure or actually I can say James is self-motivated. So he's not going to need KPIs in a performance review to, to guide him through. So there is things that are really, really. Ultimately at the end of the day I won't give absolute kudos to anyone who reaches out to me directly and says, can I chat? I've got a question I want to ask. And look, I'm not might not get back to you straight away. Follow up. Oh, wow. Right. Show you passion, show your DCS. And that would be my KTC elevate page. Go go out, meet people, humanize the process for you And them, right. And then yet tailor your application to reflect that you've done your research And then it does truly align with what you want to do and how you want to.

James: 14:47

Yeah, I think that's so important. Like tailoring your application as well, because it can really separate. you. Yeah. Like if you're sending the same resume, for example, to all these different companies. Whereas if he had like I saw this thing recently and someone had like made a new resume using the colors of the company's better platform. So it was like a Spotify application and it had like the grain, you, know, in certain places and like that gray that's the dot Palo that's on Spotify as well. I liked that. That would just do one bonus for you, right? Because it shows that, Hey, you go

Kerry: 15:18

hundred percent. Yep. Hundred percent. If you can stand out And look, you know, the challenge you've got is as well, there's so many incredible resume templates, you know, on, on places like can for things. And they're all for free, right. And Microsoft in amazing templates, but guess what? They're also available to everyone else. Right. So if you're using that amazing tip, like I guarantee you, other people are using that tool. Do something really, really different. I I'm thinking back to a time where, I had someone apply for a role who sent their resume in, You know, kept reverses the box of chocolates and, and in each wrapper, Was an attribute that they thought they had, right? So you open up, um, so no chocolates inside dammit, But. inside was, you know, like good communicator. I'm a good communicator. And now we're applying for a role in, in education. And that emphasis was, teachers always get chocolates. If you, you keep your teacher a box of chocolates. And so her application was well, here's my box of chocolates to you. And I called her because I thought that was so clever. Right. It was different. It caught my attention. And I thought, this is someone I want to understand. I want to actually learn more about them because this is so creative. And is creativity important to where I was working here at was so let's chat.

James_1: 16:51

Yeah, that's cool. That's so cool. Um, what do you think are some mistakes that people make during this process? Like what are some things that you say that, uh, you know, people like it's maybe easy things, you know, you would you'd improve so much if you fixed this thing. Is there anything that comes to mind?

Kerry: 17:11

Yeah, that's a good question. I'm sort of thinking, reflecting back on, on kind of you know, the. The is to say, what are some common mistakes or common things that, I think all plays doctor that I think the big one would be is yet, I think we said, look, not tailoring the application. Right. Just wrong details, things like that. It's just take the time to do that. I think the second one would be, is not being prepared to have that conversation. Right. So if you put in a job application, Expect to be cold, right. I think you should just expect to be cold. And so sometimes people answer the farming and remember, that's your first impression with your employer? Right? It's It's a horrible one, but it is. It's your first impression to go? This is me. I'm the elevator pitch, so to speak. So be prepared to talk. Right. Because a lot of the time I you know, I read sometimes I would speak to people. Couldn't couldn't understand They're like, where have I applied for? What do you do again? Kind of thing. So it's not a great first impression to make, So always be prepared if once you press send, being ready to do elevator pitch to it, my boss on that, if you're not ready, Right. Maybe. Right. Having, you, know, report, I know I'm getting ready for fraud. I don't drink. So you, you, you study, right. And you're in intense exam prep, right. Just say I'm So sorry. I can't talk right? now. Is there a time that I can call you? That is totally okay to do. Don't worry. Don't panic, but, but being ready if you're not ready to be okay to say I'm not ready right now. Or, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm in the middle of something. So I think that would be my biggest advice is it's okay to say no, not now. The other one would be when you in the interview is or group assessment, particularly group assessment is you've got to control. Right. I, that was a number, one thing that used to always get people screened out is that they wouldn't contribute. Right. And so what we want to say in a group assessment style thing is you'll input your insight and your idea. Right. Whether they have brought a wrong doesn't necessarily matter because you don't get any assist for technical, It's more the behavioral, the team aspect, just you got to collaborate and, and contribute to that, It was a number one ways. And so that would be my peak one. I will say a tip on that one is often perhaps if I had someone who was really dominant in my group. Yep. You, you will. That will also happen in life, right? When you're coming into a team or you go to a client meeting, there's always someone who's a little bit more dominant or a little bit more votes in, in putting forward. So you deal with that. It might be a gate high look. That was a really great suggestion, James. Thanks for leading that. discussion. Right. You can still contribute in ways. So have I think about things such as input counteraction or recognition in group, all of those things you consider collaboration and contribution. I think the final one would been interview, be prepared, practice. Correct. Uh, Con I honestly can't emphasize this enough is to actually sit down and practice interviewing and talking about yourself and drawing upon examples from your life work uni sport, wherever. To reflect what you've done. Okay. Or how you've got particular skills or attributes and do your research about a company. I still, honestly, I think every single time we still, get people, I don't know what you do. I'm not sure exactly what, what, what that company does or what are the different things? The brands you've got, so research, right. You'll get a, you'll get an invite in your jar or you'll get advance notice if you've got to interview. be prepared to talk and be prepared to show what you know about that company as well.

James_1: 21:02

Yeah, certainly that the preparation is great. And I think even with sign with the resume, tailoring it to. The company, and it's important to understand if you're getting to that stage, you know, what are the company's values? Like? You know, you've got to know show a little bit of interest in

Kerry: 21:21

The thing I'm going to say, ease. And I get so nervous in interviews, right? It's a superficial. Environment and interview, right? It's like, place stand here for an hour and tell me how amazing you are. Right. It's we don't do that every day. So nerves and feeling uncomfortable, I think are all really normal feelings, right? When you go into an interview, but remember it's also a two way conversation. Right. So they're there to say, Hey, is this person someone I want to work with? And ultimately it's also an opportunity for you to determine is, are they people, I want to hang out with eight hours of my life every day. right? It's a two way kind of thing. I think spend some time in non interview chat. Right. So that's really important that, walk to the interview room, or when you log on for a virtual interview. Be comfortable to have some of those icebreaker discussions, things like, You know, Hey, how's it going? how's your week been? What's been keeping you busy. Have you got planned for the Easter weekend? All of those conversations points are actually relationship building conversation starters, right. And that's really really important whether you work in consulting, whether you work in a product company. The being able to converse and communicate with others and build rapport. Relationships is really important. So the orange underestimate the importance and the impact that having where the chat conversation starters is in an intense.

James_1: 22:56

Uh, cool. I think that's, yeah, that's cool. Certainly. Um, I want to talk a bit more about now about, you know, if you're a graduate, you you've, uh, you've gone through this process and they actually inside the company and kind of what things you can do, you know, to, to do well and have a good experience once you're actually in there. I wonder if there's certain things. And graduates that you've saying perhaps some go on to do like really cool stuff and really thrive in that environment. What are some traits and some things that people like that tend to do.

Kerry: 23:32

Yeah. that's a really, it's a really good question. I think my first bicep, I literally, I think last week I had multiple conversations and I will have a few of our future. Hopefully put up their hands are being SED carry, Around Right. I think you put so much pressure on yourself to perform well. Right. And do really Well, And you want to do really well. Right. But being kind to yourself, John put too much pressure, eats. It. Got to be a really hard, slow grind when you first started. People tend to go really fast. Right? Cause you want to make the gloom pressure and You want to keep, you build a reputation. you want to show that you great. right. So you go really hard, right. Things kind of keep going up on a projector like that. Right. What happens if we keep going by you come down Right. Emotionally exhausted, physically exhausted. Right. So brain doesn't work at the same level. Right. So I think first got to be really kind to yourself. I think people who recognize that it's a learning. It's where people who do really well is that they understand that they're there to learn and they're curious and open to learning, right? So they know that it's not going to be, I'm going to be day one, straight out at a client, or, you know, in the back end of a non test environment. Those are the ones that. understand that Observing for a while It's really important part of that So that curiosity is the second one people who would genuinely curious, well, why don't we do things like that, you know? Is there a particular reason. It ha it happens this way, et cetera. So showing curiosity to understand is also a really, really important trait and those who do, do, really, well, because it also shows interest in others and other things. And that's actually a really important part of building a relationship and building trust with others. So those people who do show curiosity, tend to also build relationships quicker as well. I think the other one would be, What I say, I've say curiosity, Said kindness to yourself. Very, very important. I think the other one is, Openness to feedback. So an actual willingness to go, how can I be better? So that course mindset, really, if you're thinking about it, Is going I want some fade back to understand how am I going? What am I doing? Well, What could I be doing? differently? And that can be really tricky. I think when you're a grad, because you open yourself up to feel vulnerable. What if I'm not doing a good job? right? What if it's not. But as, as a graduate or someone early near Korea, that your your job is, is, to learn right. And to learn from others. So I think being open and comfortable with feedback is also a really, really important one as well. And that will most like build your level of, I guess, comfort and safety in going it's okay. if I don't know everything is. And then I think the final one would be, Particularly if you're in a bigger company or is understanding what that journey looks like. What does good look like? You know, a lot of places have so many amazing career paths already mapped out, right. Or if you're an associate level, these are sort of the attributes of the capabilities that make good. Right. Have a look at theories, understand them, take some time to understand what does that mean? If it is showing. You worry, a willingness to collaborate with others, spend some time to go. Okay. What does that look like in real life? It doesn't mean I'm contributing in meetings. It doesn't mean that I offer to take the minutes. Right. And so I think if you can understand those and either 3d manager, a people guide or HR, understand what that looks like in a small company, if you're in a startup say or. Small to me, they might not have all of those sort of processes or frameworks in plates, actually sit down and maybe ask someone who, you know, what does good look like? Who's someone who's. Right. What do they do that makes them awesome at this company? Right. And so get an understanding of what are the things that. you could be doing was showing to, to help that, because I think once you've done that it's really, really important. I I think if you know that then it helps you set some expectations around your own expectations as well. So they would be probably my key key points. Around it, the probably the only other one is I'm going to be really honest and say, it is people who have you want to do everything right? It's so they want to do everything without really understanding, going through. First they want the breadth without getting the depth. And I think that's, that's great. Right? You can learn, You can learn lots of, lots of different things, but as you progress throughout your career, at some point, you're going to have to be able to go deep in some topics. Right. And so. Right. They, patient is ESE can absolutely learn lots of different things, but also recognizing that going deeper in some particular topics or contents or specialist areas is also really, really important as you progress throughout your career.

James_1: 28:41

Yeah, I totally agree that. Definitely. And yeah, I liked what you said there about like a role model or someone that's like, you know, a few steps ahead kind of what are the things that they do well, and trying to model that, because I think, you know, often it's hard to find, well, it's, it's what you make, right? An Asian organization. Like the people that are doing well, probably slightly different. There's certain traits that they have. you can't just Google, Like you know how to succeed at this company, right? like it's a bit more complicated. So I think something like that, where you saying, Hey, this, this is someone who I really aspire to be like with someone that you know, is in the role that I'm aspiring to have, you know, one of the things that they do and really trying to get. Like improving skills. I think that's a great way of doing it

Kerry: 29:22

and he's right. And I think that's the, I said, think about how you learned best as well. So we, um, we do these individualized learning plans at Metro group for our grads and one of the, um, I'm the white name, the person, but we've put in there is. That wouldn't be more comfortable around a client. Right. And so within that learning plan, what we've done is we've recognized three people within their brand who will send testing at the client side. Right. You know, leading stand-ups do we, they're going to shutter them for awake H right. Because to sit there they're real observational learners. So they learn by watching. Cause then they'll emulate it right. Doing that will bring. Far more richness to their learning and actually heisting that the opportunity to be good with clients rather than making them sit down and read a book or do a course on, you know, great customer service. Sorry. I think being able to recognize where someone's really good and go and shadow or go and sit down and go, you know, How do you, how did you deal with that? Why is that important? Why did you do that with the client? You know, um, why did you talk to them that way? Or why did you present it that way? We'll bring you absolute practical experience to.

James_1: 30:42

Yeah, no, definitely. I think that's really cool. And I think that's really cool what you guys are doing with that as well. Like the personal learning plans and all that kind of stuff. And I'd love to ask as well, you're someone that's quite innovative or in the HR space and trying to do things a bit differently, trying to like, see what kind of ways we can improve kind of the more traditional graduate experience, you know, what are some things that you'd like to see you know, change or, you know, what direction do you want us to pet in with this? Is there any things that you like I'd love to see change or, you know, in this area with respect to grad

Kerry_1: 31:18

programs?

Kerry: 31:19

Oh, gosh, how much time have we got? Okay. I think, um, for me, I think it's just taking a moment to recognize, um, that they're adults, you know, I think sometimes we forget that, um, you know, you, when, when students, um, You know, if we talk about students. Yeah. When students finish, they're actually, they're probably been adults for three or four years already, legally right. Turned 18 when they joined uni. But I think sometimes we forget and we removed that autonomy or that opportunity for them to behave like adults by labeling them as grads and bringing them in as such. So we removed the right for them to have that contribution or input, um, into their own. Um, and so I think it would be just to take a moment and reflect on all the richness and diversity that people bring into a role and studies. Just one of them, Brian. Studies one pathway into a career, but perhaps people have been working, um, you know, very, um, through it. And they've developed an enhanced, all these amazing skills. Um, perhaps they self taught and, and, and I think the rise of, um, online learning and, um, you know, Um, ha has contributed to a wealth of information that people have acquired by themselves, not through traditional educational pathways. So I think it would be to recognize that they are adults and provide them the opportunity to contribute to that as well. Um, I think that the second one would be, um, don't just think about opportunities rather than pigeonhole. Right. Is there an opportunity to expand out of that? Right. So you might've studied commerce at uni and you mentioned in accounting, right? That doesn't mean that you can only be an accountant. What are some of the skills that accountants bring and it's things such as attention to detail, ability to problem solve? Right. So look at the skills behind a course, rather than label the person to what they started. I think would be a really, really great one. And you know what the U S still brilliantly, right? In the us, you don't get recruited by your degree. Um, you know, that you've studied something and then they look at that and I really wish, um, and I would have hoped that we'd moved on from that, but we still tend to do that here in Australia. Um, I think the other one would be to really focus on building. Human skills. I don't like the word soft skills, human skills, um, and, and do a much more emphasis on that because they're the skills that actually enable someone to be successful. Right. I don't think in my whole career I ever, when, you know, you were sitting at the table doing promotions and seller reviews going, oh, wow. Um, what, but, but James studied at the university of Melbourne, so he, uh, he should get promoted, right? No one ever talks about that. Once you're in a job, it's actually based upon how you are performing. Right. And are you aligned to the way that we work and the culture and the attributes, right. So let's focus on building those human skills that we then look at in a second. Um, throughout someone's career and, and really talk with him early in the Korea, enabled them to be really grown and harnessed early and then support them later.

James: 34:38

One of the things that, like, I know we're sort of running out of time now, it's unfortunate because I'd love to chat to you. Um, but one of the questions I ask all the guests that I have on the show is, and maybe you can take this in a, in a different direction, given, given your experience with lots of graduates. But the question I ask is, you know, if you had to restart. And then one, the quote, back to when you were first starting out, what kind of things would you do differently? Or what things would you tell yourself if you were in that environment? Again?

Kerry: 35:11

Yeah. Oh, I so know this. Um, and I noticed because there's a career change in myself multiple times. It can feel really, really overwhelming when you start something. Right. Um, our education system is designed to go. You go to. Primary school, high school, university job. Right. And so if you don't follow that pathway, you go, I must've done something wrong or I haven't succeeded as, as, as to the point that I should have. Right. And I had that myself, you know, I finished my sport and then we need to nursing and realized that I didn't actually want to do nursing. So what do I do? And you, you can kind of have a little bit of an identity crisis around that. My advice would be, it is okay to not know what you want to do. It is totally okay. Your life is not over your life is just beginning, right? It's you're just at a fork in the road where you need to choose. So I would say be okay if you don't know, and also if you'd go into a role or a company and it doesn't feel right, right. You're not being your best self. I'd stay, honestly, don't stay. Um, if you were giving up eight, nine, sometimes 10 hours of your life to a company, right? Um, you want to enjoy being there. You want to actually go, Hey, I'm really excited to get up to work today. I'm excited to, you know, go hang out with my colleagues. And if you don't feel like that, just take a moment to pause and say, why not? Where am I not feeling fulfilled? Right. Can, is there something about the role? Is there something about the way that their culture is with WorkKeys? Um, and if you don't like it don't stay, um, it's too many hours of your life to spend somewhere where you're not getting fulfilled.

James: 36:58

Totally. Absolutely great. Especially when you're young, you know, that's the time to. Take some risks go out and find that thing that you do really, really want to do. I think it's so important. Um, you know, that you don't say somebody that you can't see yourself, you know, for at least some length of time, right. If you can't see yourself bad, then then it's time to decide and take that leap and go do something else.

Kerry: 37:22

exactly. You know, I think this is old and I'm, I'm not going to cite correctly, but there's an old adage about, you know, you can have friends for a reason, a season or last time, right. So maybe Korea, right? Sometimes you got to do a job for a reason, right? It's maybe because I just need some money right now, or I've just graduated, I'm going for whatever I can. Um, you know, maybe it's seasonal. Maybe it's actually, you know what, I'm just going to do this for three to five years to work out what my next step is or where I want to go next. Or maybe it's super lucky and you've worked out what that is right early on. And so there's your vocation, you passionate about it. And you know, this is what you want to do. All of those things. Um, and I think that's a really, really important thing to know if things right now are not as they want as you want them to be. They're feeling hard wood, all of that is okay. Right. Um, focus on what you do. Love talk to people, build your networks, um, and, and start to set yourself up to align yourself to where, where you happy. Um, and, and where you feel like you, you can be.

James_1: 38:24

Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, thanks so much. But the chatting today, Kay, it's been really, really interesting to hear your experiences and kind of this whole grad process. Thanks so much for your time today. Um, if people want to find out more about yourself, if they want to connect with you further, where's the best place for them to do that?

Kerry: 38:42

Oh, I'd love to, well, first before I want to say thank you so much for inviting me on James. I've really loved our chat. Um, if people want to write chat, um, they are so welcome to send me a message on LinkedIn, um, or they can send a, an email to me, um, at, um, mantle group. It's just Kerry dot Callan pocket mantle group.com that I knew and I've left.

James_1: 39:05

Fantastic mobile, leave your details in the show notes, wherever people are watching, so they can find out more about yourself. But yeah, thanks so much for coming on today, Carrie, and all the best with everything that's gone on at mantle group. It's really exciting what you're doing, and I hope that this year and, and, um, you know, things continue to go out.

Kerry: 39:21

thanks so much, James. Appreciate again.

James: 39:30

Thanks for listening to this episode I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want to get my takeaways, the things that I learned from this episode, please go to graduate theory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode, straight to your inbox. Thanks so much for listening again today, and we're looking forward to seeing you next week.