Lisa Leong | On Moments of Truth and Pattern Discovery

Lisa Leong is an ABC Radio National broadcaster, media commentator and business consultant.

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Content
00:00 Lisa Leong
00:21 Journey from Law to Radio
10:38 Dealing with Pressures changing careers
15:51 Creating your Values
25:00 Biggest Learning from the book
31:54 Undervalued pieces from the book
38:32 A Failure that ended up being a success
44:31 Lisa's Advice for Graduates
46:59 Outro

Transcript

Lisa Leong: 0:00

So all those boxes of success, the promotion, the work life balance with the Olympic distance triathlon, it was like a, like a big mistake because I was in bed. I was bedridden

James Fricker: 0:21

of, um, your experience. Like I know your re most recent, um, episode on your podcast was like around changing careers and stuff. Um, and so your yourself, I'd love to touch on that with you, cuz going from like law into like radio and, and a bunch of the other stuff that you've done, um, you know, is quite a, an interesting one. So I'd love to just dive into that and hear about your experience

Lisa Leong: 0:44

Do you wanna hear about how I went from law to radio by the way, James, would you like to hear that one?

James Fricker: 0:52

Yes, I would love to hear that

Lisa Leong: 0:56

So I just followed the path that you do when you come out of uni and then. Everyone said I should try and get articles in a law firm. So I got my articles in a law firm, and then you blink. And seven years later still working as a lawyer and I was really enjoying it and it took me to London. So London picture the year, 2000. So we're all excited about, you know, the year 2000. Inter, you know, the internet was suddenly just absolutely booming. And in that internet, which is now called an internet bubble, um, we had a lot of money being splashed around. So I followed the money trail to London and I started doing some incredible transactions, um, in the boom of the. But then came the bust and all the people who were funding, um, this amazing movement, they kind of lost their money. And so I stopped really doing these huge transactions and as an, a technology and eCommerce lawyer, I kind of got pulled into a different area and this area was mergers and acquisitions. Which were still huge transactions, but the role of the technology lawyer is quite limited. So that was to review a due diligence. Um, all of the technology contracts filled these big companies just to make sure they're all up, up to scratch. What had involved in those days was sitting in an airless windowless office for hours a day, reviewing piles and piles of these document. So I basically slowly died inside as I was just reviewing these contracts, but a friend of mine said, Hey, have you ever thought about volunteering for hospital radio? The hospitals in London are so big. They have full blown radio stations for every single hospital. Yeah. And you get, so you, you volunteer, but you get trained up. So you do your flying time in other people's shows. So I did Monday night. Bingo. And then I read out all the, you know, like legs, 11 22, 2 little ducks quite. And every Monday night, you know, there I was anyway, I got my hours up and then you get training. So it was amazing. So they train you up in the panel. So I'd practice, you know, with my pens, I'd practice, you know, pulling up the fader and talking and then pulling down the fader and turning it off. And then I got my own show. And so it was Thursday night therapy with Lisa Leon and I'd interview people like you do. Just anyone who I found. Interesting. So I'd say to my friends, oh, can you come and talk about this? And, um, I started really like getting a lot of traction, I would say as a radio show, maybe cuz of the captive audience. Cause it was a hospital, but um, grew an audience I fell in love with it and then I thought. How do I turn this into a career? So this is the part that I'm, I am really curious about, which is, okay. So you've discovered that you love something. How do you actually turn it into a career? Now, looking back, what I did was. I didn't just leap. Actually, I did a whole load of little things to, as Dory Clark says, so she's a consultant and a coach and she says, optimize for interesting. Be very curious about this new thing. So looking back, I just kept on volunteering for different hospitals, with different radio stations. I got myself, um, onto other people's shows like in London. And then I also did a lot of research. I then, um, I just listen to hours and hours of radio analyzed it, read books, all of these things. And then I had a. And what this moment was is that I decided to write letters, attach it, my hospital radio show as a demo. And I sent them out to everyone everywhere. Now I know my strategy was spray and pray. It wasn't very

James Fricker: 5:16

Yeah.

Lisa Leong: 5:16

I got lots of rejection letters. So I got like so many rejection letters, James. And even though, you know, I can now say it like, yeah, I got lots of rejection letters. I must say at the time. feel very good because it was me saying, oh, do you think there's something there? And everyone's saying, no, there's nothing here. and I thought, oh, what was I thinking? I've got a Bogan voice, you know, I'm crap. And I turned on myself and I lost a lot of confidence and I thought, oh, well, I'll just be a lawyer. Um, but then there was the turning point is to say, and it was an empathy. If I was a program director, who's making a big decision about the who I'm putting on air. What would my life be like really busy, to be honest. I don't think that they listen to my demo tape and maybe I could do something else to, um, have a conversation with them. So I found out that the program director for Liberty radio, one of the biggest radio stations in London, footprint wise, also presented. The weekend breakfast show by himself. so I basically decided to cold call him, but face to face, I took the first train out. It was sleeting, it was cold. And I went up to the door of Liberty, radio station unannounced. And in that moment, I decided to press that doorbell, press the door. He answered and I actually thought, oh, sh should I just run away? Cuz I got really scared because I thought, oh my God, he could actually call the police on me. This is ridiculous. And I just

James Fricker: 7:03

Mm.

Lisa Leong: 7:04

thought, what is the worst that can happen? The worst that can happen, call the police or just reject me again. And I thought, oh, well, you know, I've been rejected. Let's just give this a go. What if it works? So I said, hi, my name is Lisa Leon. I'm a radio DJ. Can I make you a cup of coffee this morning? Now mind you I'm 30 years old. You know, I'm not like 16 deciding to do this. Like I'm literally a corporate lawyer. Can I make you a cup of coffee? And he buzzed me in James

James Fricker: 7:39

Yeah,

Lisa Leong: 7:39

So I literally get buzzed in meeting a guy I've never met before. He doesn't know who I am and he lets me in. I go in, I walk. I find the kitchen. I make him a cup of coffee. He Becks me to come in to his studio and then I just sit down. I sit there, look at him and then he talks and I'm like, wow, this is cool. And then when he stops talking, puts on a song, he goes, okay, who are you? Tell me your story. So I'm chatting with this guy, you know, he's the dude. Right? And then, um, we, I leave and then next week, Ring the doorbell. Hi, it's Lisa Leon on the radio DJ here to make your morning cup of coffee. He lets me in and this time in the studio, he puts me on the air with him. So then I'm chatting with Tom on the radio. Um, and I did it every weekend. he was so sick of me. He gave me my own show. on Sundays. I pulled in my friend, Zoe Mack. We put on a radio show together on Liberty radio, largest footprint in London. And, and that really was one of my biggest breaks because to have that commercial radio, you know, um, experience. And so he, you know, sort of, um, helped me with that. I got a better demo tape together. And then that one got me into the Australian film, television and radio school with three rounds of interviews and, and the like, and then I resigned from my law firm because, um, I think I found out that 95% or a hundred percent of the radio, um, graduates from the Australian film, television and radio school get jobs. So that was enough for me to go, okay, I'm gonna do this. This is where I roll the dice. If I can get into afters, I will resign. So I resigned from my London job, and then I came back to Australia. So that pretty much set me on my radio path.

James Fricker: 9:48

Yeah. Wow. That's a pretty, super interesting story. A great story of, uh, like initiative and that kind of stuff too. Uh, cuz that's pretty hard, right. Go and rock up to the office and like, hi, I think that's quite bold

Lisa Leong: 10:01

yeah, I think micro acts have. Bravery. Um, James, I think because there's a lot of inertia isn't there. So especially when you are, um, gaining experience, you know, there's the, you just keep on going or do you pivot or what are those big career moments? What I call the moments of truth, where you do need micros of bravery in order to change something and understand that inertia's pretty strong. So every day can just roll onto another day. If you're not purposeful or, you know, intentional

James Fricker: 10:38

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's really cool. It's I wanna ask about like, about the move here in particular, like, um, you know, you, you've sort of, you're working at the law firm and then ready on the side for a bit. Like what do people kind of. Saying that cuz it's prob I mean, I guess it might be things like, that's kind of weird. Like why is she, like, doing stuff on a radio show while she's working here, like it's super random. Uh, and then going to like leave law fully as well to pursue radio is not like a, a classic. Thing that people do, right. It's quite, uh, it's quite out there. So how did you deal with kind of like, did you feel the sort of pressure there at all to sort of keep doing what you're doing and, and even that the case of like, you've invested so much time into, into law, kind of the pressure there where often, you know, we do things for a while and then it's like, oh, I, I guess I can't do anything else because I've spent so much time doing this one thing. I mean, how did, how did all of that kind of thought flow through your mind at that.

Lisa Leong: 11:38

In a way, James, I think it's easier now. Um, when we think about bringing our whole selves to work and people understanding that, you know, we don't have to be a certain. Um, very narrow sense of the worker. And the reason why I say this is when we started doing remote working and obviously seeing into people's, you know, houses. That was one way in which we learned a bit more about each person as a whole person. The second thing is because of the internet and socials, you know, I can see that. You have different hobbies or past times you might have a side business or a side hustle that I can see, you know, as a graduate. Right. And so that is all a part of you. Now, back in the day, I would say that we had a very, you know, professional sense. So this is the nineties and we all sort of had a professional persona. I was kind of lucky. I, I joined a law firm in, um, That absolutely saw me as just kind of being me. And so I was like all singing or dancing, even in my when I was a casual, uh, worker and then, uh, at this law firm. And then when I became, did my articles, I mean, there was no, they absolutely knew that I was a lawyer, but I also, you know, I would host or chair their section meeting. And I would have like a little boom box where I would play intro music and I would put out two lounge chairs and I would say, come and sit on my hot seat. And I would do it like a TV show basically. So, you know, like I, I think they knew and they truly supported that. And I think it's really important because a nurturing environment, which says, oh, that's Lisa. She's singing to the clients again.

James Fricker: 13:33

Mm

Lisa Leong: 13:34

right. So I never hid it. Um, they were really supportive and same with like my law firm in London. They were like, wow, that's unreal. You know, you're becoming a radio DJ. Nobody has ever resigned to become a radio DJ

James Fricker: 13:49

Yeah.

Lisa Leong: 13:51

they were awesome. So I think, I think if you are honest about it and authentic, Then people, you know, will be your greatest supporters. And I feel like the work environment is definitely, um, you know, able to see that we all come in different shape sizes and, you know, and in different modes. And it's all really, um, really important. Now I think the work for each individual is to see every day as lab day. And every day is an opportunity to learn a bit more about yourself, particularly your superpowers and your values. So superpowers are your strengths, which are unique to you. And the more you play to those strengths, those superpowers, the more helpful you are at work. The happier you are, the more likely you'll be in flow and therefore doing your best work, that's really important for you and for the organization that you belong to, because then you'll be your best self, right. And you'll be doing unreal work. Um, the other part about value. So this is the idea of understanding. How you wanna be in the world? Who do you wanna be in the world? So, you know, I had a few little, um, mishaps with my health. So health became one of my most important values over and above everything else. And then connection, curiosity, freedom. Like I'm just someone who needs to be quite free autonomous. So whenever it is, my life is bumped up against. Value or I'm not playing to a superpower, like bad things happen, everyone. So it's, you know, you wanna kind of do the work on understanding yourself and therefore you can bring your best self to work.

James Fricker: 15:47

Mm.

Lisa Leong: 15:48

How is that? How's that resonating with you, James?

James Fricker: 15:51

No. No, definitely. Definitely. I think one thing I've been thinking about recently is like this idea of like values and like your, uh, understanding kind of what yours are. I mean, and has that ever been like a formal process that you sort of went through where you were kind of like, okay, I'm gonna write down things that I value and like really have a deep think about it or has it just been something that's kind of evolved and now you just have realized, oh, these are things our value. I mean, yeah. What does that look like?

Lisa Leong: 16:16

a bit of both. So I think it started off just understanding just a bit of. a, when I feel like aligned to an organization what's happening there. Um, so there's a specific exercise. It's like the values solicitation process. And, um, so in seriously in, because I wrote this book, um, recently.

James Fricker: 16:39

mm.

Lisa Leong: 16:40

There's a whole chapter on values. And we found, you know, one of the world's experts, Greta Bradman, who happens to live in Melbourne in Australia, and she's a, uh, psychologist. She's also a classically trained soprano, um, a. Beautiful woman and a beautiful soul. And she's done a lot of meta research bringing together all of the research on values and she shared her process with us and did it on us, did on us. And so there actually a list of values because it's quite hard to pull it out of the ether. So she has a. Say 50 or so values and you just really go through it and you just mark the ones that you think, oh, this is jumping out. Yes. And this, and then crossing out the ones that are no, definitely. No. And you get a really good sense then you'll have like 30 or 20. Uh, and then from there, you know, you just go through a process of whittling it down. You probably want about. Um, and then you wanna really try and make it unique to you as well. So, you know, mine is curiosity. What does that actually mean for me though? So, you know, curious about people, um, I even ideas will come from a particular person and then I'll be interested in why did this particular person get driven to go deeper on these ideas? So for me, it's all about people. Um, So that's the values process, uh, and, and, and it's really worthwhile doing it formally, but also it might change through time. Cause I would say that hedonism was a value of mine. when I was like about 20, you know, I was just like, follow the fun. Where's the fun, like, and that was fine. I don't really regret that. Um, and, and actually freedom has always been there. So, you know, I've traveled a.

James Fricker: 18:43

Mm, nice. No, that's super cool. It's, it's interesting to hear that, cuz I think, yeah, once you have your kind of values mapped out, then it makes making decisions and like, you know, your decision, like. Moving from, from law to radio. For example, those decisions, I feel become easier once you have this kind of idea of like, what are the things I think are important and how can I sort of map those onto things I'm doing day to day?

Lisa Leong: 19:09

I've got another, do you want another, um, exercise, James.

James Fricker: 19:13

Yeah, Yeah, of course.

Lisa Leong: 19:15

Okay. So another useful one and, you know, sort of keep this up your sleeve and, and do it periodically is something that I came up with in the year 2000 when I was thinking about, oh, what am I gonna do next? And. I thought that I'd created this, I called it the happiness graph. I've since found out that it's a very well known exercise, but it's called the lifeline exercise and in the book, um, it's called the life flow exercise. So. Um, think of a graph and you've got like the horizontal line and you've got the vertical line and the vertical line is just like subjective levels of happiness or, um, sense of, you know, yay. And then on the horizontal line it's time and you go back as far as you can remember, and then you go to today and you're mapping out your life in terms of the highs and low. The peaks and the troughs of your life. So in childhood, you might have had a really amazing moment in your childhood that you remember. So that's a peak and then something, you know, you went to uni, you didn't have great first year, so that's a trough. And then you do you just seriously, subjectively just do this graph. So you got highs and lows and then for every peak. You go, what made this a peak experience? Who was I surrounded by? What was I doing? You know, what's the environment and then you do the troughs. Ooh, okay. This, this was a trough because of what, what was I doing? Who was I with? And then you take a step back and you're trying to see if there's a trend. What made these peak experience, so, so that you can be more intentional about building in maybe some more consistent peaks troughs happen in life. Sometimes you just can't plan to not have them. You'll have like, it's an ebb and flow of life. But just, you know, rather than going blindly into accidentally hitting a trough every time, Ugh, that's that learning, you know, everyday lab day, you don't repeat the same experiment, right. That where, you know what the, the answer is, it's a negative result. It's a experiment, fail. And example of this is, um, he, uh, a peak experience for me, 1999. Um, one of the banks. Your bank actually, uh, was creating this amazing division. And it was like we were creating internet banking basically. And I got asked to go on second comment to be the lead lawyer. The only lawyer for this division, it was a peak experience, all sorts of diverse creatives coming together to create something that nobody has ever created before. I was in heaven. Um, I have been doing long hours in the law firm. I got to five o'clock and everyone came up to my desk and they're like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm working. And they're like, stop working. Let's go to the pub. And so we went down to the pub. And just had like the best time together. And so what I was valued for was the quality of my work, not the quantity. So that was a learning and just the best people, all really different people. So we had financeers and we had, um, advertising people and marketing people were just like project managers and I just loved it. So that was.

James Fricker: 22:58

Mm,

Lisa Leong: 22:58

Trough. Remember when I was in the airless windowless office by myself effectively. So getting a theme here, people creating new things, peak trough by myself. Now this is where it's useful. I get into radio like, and this is about curiosity, communicating unreal. But this amazing job that I got. Capital city, radio, commercial radio, everyone wanted this job. Everyone I kind of was like a Z list, celebrity celebrity in, uh, in this place, seemingly having it all. I used to do six hour stints on the air and then come out and then kind of cry. And then I look back and I go, why am I so unhappy? Oh, Six hours by myself in an airless windowless office, talking to myself because there was no, like, not a lot of interactivity. Of course there's no human beings when you do weekend breakfast for six hours. Um, and so I was like, oh, I've made a terrible mistake. so then I just, I, you know, and then I applied for the ABC. Where you can work with producers, you interview guests that come into the studio with you. Can you see how that was a, like a learning that I needed to have that bit of objectivity to see? Oh no, of it's not about the industry actually. It's about the environment.

James Fricker: 24:40

Mm, that's really interesting. That's quite an

Lisa Leong: 24:43

So there you go. The life flow,

James Fricker: 24:45

yeah. that's a good exercise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I'll have to go, go away and do those things. Um, that's pretty interesting. Well, we've spoken about your book a little bit already. Um, and I'd love to kind of dive into this a little bit more. Um, and perhaps you could, uh, like what has been your sort of biggest learning from perhaps not even the book, but you know, the podcast you have or the, the show that you run is the same name. And I, I guess, like, you've been doing it for a while now. What has been like the, the biggest learning or biggest learning. From from doing this whole thing.

Lisa Leong: 25:25

When we, um, we'd been going along for a little while doing the podcast and it's broadcast as well on radio national, this working life. And we always set out to ask, you know, with curiosity, why do we work the way we work? How might we work differently? Um, How might we be more human at work as well? That was kind of underpinning a lot of our questions, James. And before COVID, you know, we'd ask these questions about, say remote working, and there was always, you know, a mix of answers, but mainly the gist was it'll never work or it just is the way it is. Like, why question it through COVID. Obviously remote working became our big global experiment. And we found that yes, we could, but you know, of course each has its pros and cons, which we're only learning about now, but we are more willing to ask that question. Why do we work the way we work? How might we work differently? How do we become more human at work? And so suddenly we get this zeitgeist de traction, you know, and we're all in it together. I call us a squat of explorers. So nobody's the expert. Um, you know, we are there, you've got a bit of data there, James. It's different from my data points, but together we can kind of piece together, Hey, what's happening? Right. So then my value of curiosity gets completely ignited. So suddenly this work life, the podcast and the show, um, being broadcast, you know, people are really along for the ride with us. It's helpful, you know, we're, we're asking the questions at the right times, I think for people. And so it's super rewarding, exciting, um, humbling. And then, you know, then I got a, a LinkedIn message from Arwin summers from hard grant saying, have you ever thought about, you know, a. until that time, I'd actually been, um, talking to a friend who's a publisher about, you know, is there a book in this working life, but probably before, COVID, it hadn't really formed for us. So Arwin asking the question at the right time. I thought, you know what? I think there is a book here because I was starting to get emails from people saying, oh, you know, I'm just kinda dunno what to do about my own career. Kind of been in the job for 20 years. I don't know what to do or I'm starting off and I don't really know how to make these choices in such a crazy chaotic environment. And so the book kind of formed itself in this question of how do you navigate your career? In times of uncertainty, careers are no longer linear. You don't just lock in and, and bunker down and go deeper and deeper and deeper into your E. So then, um, remember that learning. So the learning from the peak is don't go alone. Lisa Leon on don't sit in an airless windowless office, you know, by yourself. So I thought, oh, writing a book. had luckily been collaborating with a wonderful ABC journal, digital editor, legend, Monique Ross. And I had noticed that she was an amazing writer. And so I cheekily asked her one day, come on, have you ever thought about writing a book? you seem to love writing? And she said, mm. And I said, will you like to write a book with me?

James Fricker: 29:18

Yeah.

Lisa Leong: 29:19

said, yes, You know, and not only was it collaborating with Mon, which was like the most delightful thing on the planet, but also with Arwin our editor. And then we actually created a soundtrack for a book. So we got to work with a musician, little green. To, and then her manager and my husband, he did a video clip for the cause we released like an LP for the book. Isn't that crazy. So we just kind of started collecting people and then we had, yeah. Um, you know, just everyone who's involved with the book, which is everyone. Um, so many people, but all became part of our squad of explorers and you know, so I, you know, I think. It was, don't get obsessed about the output as well. You know, you can get really fixated on the output. Oh, you know, will this book, you know, what will the finished product be? But I said, you know, to Mon, Hey, let's enjoy. And then let's find joy in every moment. And so even the writing. Like it was joyous. Like, you know, we'd get our little thing and we'd come up with ideas together, then we'd get down. And then even the parts where we're like, oh, does that work? We tried to make it like more like curiosity, ah, that, that chapter as a fail let's just try again, but it was fine. I was fine for Mon you might need to interview her and say, if she also enjoy the process,

James Fricker: 30:54

Yeah. at the interrogation. You can be in separate

Lisa Leong: 30:57

Yeah, that's right. Lisa had a great time. Did you? No,

James Fricker: 31:00

Yeah.

Lisa Leong: 31:02

it was terrible.

James Fricker: 31:06

Oh, that's amazing. Um, I wonder like, yeah, I'm glad it certainly looks really good and I haven't got around to reading it, but I definitely will. Cause I think it's, it's relevant for

Lisa Leong: 31:16

yay.

James Fricker: 31:17

like people in my audience and certainly put a lot of hard work and effort into it. And, um, it seems like it's been received really well, uh, by everyone. Fantastic job. Um, but I wanna ask as well. So some of the things that you like so, so there it is folks who are watching, amazing. Um, like, so some of the lessons that are in there and then lessons that you, that you have, like on the podcast as well. Are there any of those that you think people will like underappreciate or they, they undervalue, or you wish like more people would be interested in. Like you think this area is like really cool and important, but like, it doesn't get a reception perhaps that you think it, it should. Is there anything there?

Lisa Leong: 32:02

Uh, just a funny one is that, um, when I started, my producer was very intrigued by the fact that I'm a bio hacker. Do you know this term, James?

James Fricker: 32:19

I, I have heard about the stuff like this. Right. Is it like you it's like the person that eats, like all this like foreign, green food it's it's like some herbs from like some Eaton

Lisa Leong: 32:31

Yeah. Yeah. New

James Fricker: 32:33

Um, that kind

Lisa Leong: 32:34

yeah. So use science and technology science and technology to hack your body. Right. and I was doing a lot of bio hacking because I was traveling a lot. Before COVID and I would just do long haul, like a lot. So traveling to the us or traveling to New Zealand, I think it was nearly once a week to New Zealand. And though, you know, air travel just takes it out of your body. So I would an example of some biohacking is that I would shine light through this device, into my ears. Which, um, cuz there are photoreceptors on your brain that you can get through your ear canal and that would help me with jet lag. So I would shine it, you know, when I was meant to be awake, for example. Um, so that's one example. Another example, an extreme one is cryotherapy it's about minus 170 degrees and you go into a chamber as new as possible. for like three minutes. And it kind of recharges your body. Um, so that's another example. So we did this series on me presenting my bio hacks to scientists and they assess whether or not I'm crazy and whether it's worth doing so that was really fun. So, you know, and we, we get to do really fun things on the show. So we do serious topics. Um, absolutely. And. But we also get to have quite a lot of fun in the show as well. So that was one of the things that I got to do, um, on this working life. Um, I think maybe one of the best career, um, ones was this one about portfolio careers. So James a portfolio career. I mean, it absolutely helped me understand what my career is is that instead of seeing yourself as I have my main career, and this is a side hustle, so, you know, at one stage I had a consultancy. ABC was my side hustle. Um, this week in life was my side hustle. You actually see a portfolio career like portfolios that you have when you're an, in an. You know, you diversify portfolio, but it all kind of makes sense together. So, um, every part of my career, cuz at the moment I do, you know, my ABC Sunday show, I've got this working life as well on radio national. I, uh, coach CEOs, executives, I, um, like facilit. Off sites, um, for organizations that could look a little bit like a hodgepodge or, which is my main thing, which is my side hustle, who am I, whereas a portfolio career is a really nice way of managing a whole career, but seeing it as being all additive and working together in harmony, and that's kind of the approach. Story Clark, who I interviewed on the show to. And she's the one who introduced me to the term, um, portfolio career. She actually came up with it because she was heavily reliant on one arm of her career, I think in her early days and, you know, lost her job. And so she was like, oh, that's too many eggs in one basket. And certainly when you're a freelancer, you know, having. Diversified portfolio means that yes, if a COVID in, you know, happens and you know, I can't travel anymore, you know, do I have other aspects of my career that can help me sort of survive through that? Um, cuz that definitely happened to me. So I had to think about, okay, so what are other things that I can be doing here? Or I can just take a mini holiday for a little

James Fricker: 36:38

Yeah. yeah, that's cool. That, that's a, yeah, it's certainly an interesting way of putting, like, um, I've had that word mentioned, but it's interesting how you can sort of frame even your things that just framing it differently perhaps makes it sound, uh,

Lisa Leong: 36:53

Mm.

James Fricker: 36:54

like. Yeah, more comforting, I guess if you, if you frame it in terms of portfolio and, and, and looking at like the ways that things intersect and, and like can, like each thing sort of incre gets more value because of the other things that you're sort of doing at the same time. Um,

Lisa Leong: 37:11

I think that's important rather than destructive. So thinking that there's a tension there, trying to see it as well. If I learn more. So even, um, between my ABC radio shows, one's a live broadcast show. That's ABC radio Melbourne on Sundays from 10 till 12, and then this working life highly produced weekly radio national show. When I, um, do my live radio broadcasting, rather than it sort of seeing like its intention with the other, it really helps me. With the way I present this working life, you know, being more conversational, um, even just, you know, listening better. Um, you know, I think it all for me is additive. And then when I do work in corporates, of course, that helps me with this working life because I'm with real people in the real world, it's like being in the wilderness of work. And then I can, or coaching executives, I can sort of go, oh, that's what they're thinking and feeling. That is the zeitgeist at the moment, you know? And so, you know, very often in this working life, I'm like, okay, this is a, this is happening in the world of work. Let's um, do outtake on it. So that's what happens. It's like we gotta do this show. Yeah.

James Fricker: 38:32

Yeah. That's cool. no, I like that a lot. I like that a lot. Um, one thing I wanna ask more general question for. But I wonder if there's been a time in your life, um, perhaps a failure that, or something didn't go to plan, but, uh, and at the time it seemed like it didn't go to plan, but, uh, it ended up being a success like later on or something that at the time seemed like the world was crashing down and it didn't go the way you'd expected, but later on, it actually worked out for the best. Um, I wonder if there's any examples

Lisa Leong: 39:05

I've got so many. Uh so I seem to trip up a lot, James. So always learning, always learning.

James Fricker: 39:13

Yeah.

Lisa Leong: 39:14

one of the, one of the ones which might be relevant to you is that I. Was doing really well in this kind of client relationship, business development role. And so I kept on it being promoted and it was really exciting until I got promoted to like, I just couldn't say no to this amazing, uh, role. And it was to head up business development in Asia for a large organization. And it was like, oh, how sexy and fun is that? So with my husband and with my little daughter at the time, she would've been four or five, uh, we went over and moved to Hong Kong. So because I was covering all of Asia, I was flying around a lot, um, you know, sort of gallivanting around, uh, had a team of 18 amazing team, cross cultural and. So I was really busy and we're trying to do something pretty special. So calendar was full email box full. Lots of responsibility, absolutely loving it. High powered. Uh, also I thought, and then, um, I thought, oh, work life balance. I'll train for an Olympic distance triathlon So I was like running and I was like swimming and I was cycling and then I was working and then I didn't really feel stressed, but I was certainly waking up at three. With a lot in my head. And so I would do hours of work and then I'd kind of have an little nap and then I would go to work for the rest of the day and flying around, went on a holiday with some friends, no surprise. My body just completely, you know, when I'm, when you've been too much in adrenaline and all the adrenaline seeps away on a holiday. And then your body actually says, actually, I'm. Bang. So I get shingles, which I had no idea what it was, but it was, I thought it was like a medieval disease shingles. Oh.

James Fricker: 41:13

Yeah.

Lisa Leong: 41:14

Um, so it's like a bad thing. Rashi thing that happens, but mine, um, got complicated and I got secondary nerve damage and it's called post Neuria and. GP said whatever you do. Don't Google post heed neur. So I went home and I Googled it.

James Fricker: 41:36

Yeah.

Lisa Leong: 41:37

like horror stories of people who never went back to work. Never cause it's nerve damage. It's like searing pain. I was on seven different painkillers. Couldn't hug. My daughter couldn't hug my husband. I would just cry. And so anyway, I was crying and I was like, oh my God, I've stuffed up. So all those boxes of success, the promotion, the work life balance with the Olympic distance triathlon, it was like a, like a big mistake because I was in bed. I was bedridden. And so I actually managed to recover a friend suggested, um, meditation. Of which I'd said before, like why would I do that? But I did John Kabat sinces, uh, program called mindfulness based stress reduction. It's scientifically, um, from Massachusetts hospital scientifically, um, I guess tested, and

James Fricker: 42:43

Mm.

Lisa Leong: 42:43

it was hard, but you know what, it was really helpful for managing pain and then for managing stress and then for better, um, Sense of presence. And what presence gives you is my brother said, you're so much nicer now. that was one thing. And then just to be there with another and to actually be present and focusing, uh, and then this idea of that was when I actually became like a bio hacker health, first person, James. Um, so I would've. Quite old by then, like 40 took me a while. I'm like a really slow learner. Um, so I was 40 and I was maybe 30 something. I can't remember. I actually have no sense of time, 30 something say, uh, but then I was like, right. Health is so important. If you don't have health, you've got nothing. Like bedridden is not good. So then I was like, okay, what does it look like to. Have health first for me. And so that's when you know, morning routine and, um, a lot of my other practices. So even though I have freedom as a value, I am still disciplined and structure actually gives you freedom.

James Fricker: 44:03

Mm.

Lisa Leong: 44:04

It's like the right amount of freedom, you know?

James Fricker: 44:09

Yeah. There's like the, I don't know if you've like familiar with Joco willing, but, um, he has like this saying it's like

Lisa Leong: 44:15

Commando, right?

James Fricker: 44:16

I think he might even have, yeah, that's right. Yeah. He's like a, I've forgotten

Lisa Leong: 44:21

I don't have it tattooed on my chest though. Like he does

James Fricker: 44:23

Yeah. one day. We'll get there. we need more discipline.

Lisa Leong: 44:30

day.

James Fricker: 44:31

Yeah, amazing. Well, I've got one more question for you, Lisa. Uh, and that is around, um, you know, Careers and young people more generally is a question. I ask all the guests that come on the show. And that is if you could, like, if, if someone was kind of graduating university again, heading out into the world, uh, and you had the chance to give them some advice, knowing the things that you know now and the things that you've been through, what, what is some advice that you would give someone at that stage?

Lisa Leong: 45:02

Uh, never listen to someone who gives you advice without asking some questions. First is my piece of advice. Isn't that a head spin.

James Fricker: 45:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa Leong: 45:14

Um, uh, the, the other one is, you know, don't put too much pressure on yourself. I think you find the right pathway, James, whatever road you take at the fork at that time. And I feel like, you know, there's a lot of pressure make the right decision. Like it kind of all comes out in the wash at the end of the day. And remember that if you make a misstep. So if you. Accept a position that you absolutely hate then tick well done. You've just learned something about what you don't want next time. right. So take the pressure off you're okay. Um, if every day is lab day, you are fine. Um, so that's one thing, um, as well.

James Fricker: 45:59

Hmm, fantastic. I think that's a good attitude to have every day's lab day, uh, and you know, experiment a bit and try and get closer to the things that give you energy that are the highs like you mentioned, and try and steer away from, uh, the, the, uh, lows where possible. If people wanna find out more about yourself and like connect with. Where's the best place for them to go.

Lisa Leong: 46:22

So the best place is LinkedIn. And I think I'm under Lisa S. Leon. So you can find me on LinkedIn and it's a really good place for anyone with a career. So I'd encourage you just to start off a basic LinkedIn page if you haven't already. Uh, and then, uh, you can also follow me on Instagram as well. So that's. Lisa ESLE and you'll see me there on Instagram. They're the best places you can, um, connect with me and, uh, write to me there.

James Fricker: 46:51

Amazing. no. Yeah. Thanks so much, Lisa, for coming on, it's been very, very entertaining and ency chat.

Lisa Leong: 46:58

Thank you, James.

James: 47:06

thanks for listening to this episode I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you want to get my takeaways, the things that I learned from this episode, please go to graduate theory.com/subscribe, where you can get my takeaways and all the information about each episode, straight to your inbox. Thanks so much for listening again today, and we're looking forward to seeing you next week.