Haynes D'Souza | On The Graduate Experience and Careers

Haynes is a Finance Manager at Airwallex. He has worked at Goldman Sachs JBWere and PWC, where he worked in Silicon Valley on billion-dollar deals like the Uber IPO and Airbnb transactions.

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Show Notes
00:00 #11 Haynes D'Souza
00:00 Intro
02:14 From Melbourne to Silicon Valley
06:42 Tall Poppy Syndrome in Australia
09:04 Lesson's from Covid in New York 
14:14 What makes a successful startup
18:01 The Importance of Timing for Your Startup
22:47 Upcoming Trends
31:06 Haynes' Favourite Failure
37:54 Questions to ask when moving roles
39:56 Your career is not linear
43:12 Finding Mentors in Australia
46:12 How to reach out to people
49:18 Haynes' Advice for Graduates
52:26 Charlie Munger's Lattice Theory
56:08 The Fancy Title Career Mistake
01:00:33 Outro

Transcript

James: 0:00

Hello, and welcome to graduate theory. Today's episode is a great episode. Today's episode. We go really deep and with someone that is really passionate about graduates and he's passionate about. You taking control and growing your career. On this episode, we speak about overseas travel, starting a side project while you're working full time, different cultures and how they work. We talk about all this different stuff relating to mentorship, ways to kind of plan and build out your career. There's so much value. In this episode, we covered so many different angles of so many different things. So this episode for me is one of my favorites. If you want to get this episode straight to your inbox, and if you want to read my insights and what I picked up from this episode, please go to graduate theory.com and subscribe to the newsletter on there. You're going to get my thoughts and different things that I picked up from the podcast. You'll also find more information about different things that we spoke about on the episode today. Without further ado, let's dive in. Hello, and welcome to graduate theory. My guest today graduated with a bachelor of commerce from the university of Melbourne. In 2015. He has worked at Goldman Sachs and PWC, where he worked in Silicon valley on billion dollar deals like the Uber IPO, since returning to Australia at the start of this year, my guest has started working as the Australia and New Zealand finance manager for Alex with his, he works as a mentor at VC firm Blackbird and a startup mentor at textbook benches. On top of all this, my guest runs his company, 87 advisory, where he helps small businesses perform financial due diligence over their M and a and venture capital process. So please welcome to the show. The highly accomplished Haines D'Souza.

Haynes: 1:58

Thanks, James. Thanks for having me on that was a very warm and generous introduction. So happy feel free to keep going. That, that was great.

James: 2:05

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you've done so much and it's going to be a great conversation today. I'm really excited to get into all the things that you've done in your career. And one thing, when I was researching you, one thing that really stuck out to me, it was this move that you made from Australia over to America and into Silicon valley. And I wanted to ask, was there a key moment that led to you making that decision to go to Silicon valley?

Haynes: 2:28

Sure. So, right before, right before I moved over to SFI, I did two, two years in Canberra. I worked at the Australian national audit office. And two years in Canberra, like I initially started very optimistic about sort of government. I wanted to learn how government works. I wanted to learn how the military worked. Spent a lot of time looking at consulting and audit projects for the military and also the department of finance. But then I got to the end of two years and I just wasn't, it wasn't being challenged. I felt like I was. I was in my mid twenties and I looked at, people 5, 10, 15 years sort of older than me. And I didn't really, find that. That trajectory was, was too challenging. And so I've always been a big believer, like I think all of these should, should go and work overseas. And so I reached out to a few networks at PWC where I worked in Melbourne for a bit and then said, look, I really want to go to San Francisco. People said, look, it's, it's a lot like Melbourne. The coffee scene is, is just as, just as good. It's just as expensive. Interestingly it was either that or Germany that, that was sort of the thing. And I, I sort of hated German food anyway. So I made the move across to San Francisco and was yeah, therefore for about two years. And that's sort of where I caught the tech bug. So worked on the Uber IPO and just met some amazing people and sort of work ethic of the entrepreneurial-ism and just changed my outlook on many things, not sort of just work-related, but sort of life more generally. And, you work overseas, you go there and you see folks that have gone to Harvard and Stanford and some of the elite universities and, and work in these amazing jobs. And you try to internalize some of those learnings and bring them back home. And that's sort of what I've tried to do. Sort of being with Alex right now and doing a whole bunch of mentoring and advisory work as well.

James: 4:11

Yeah. Yeah, That's really exciting. And were there any, are there any key, like you mentioned your value of connecting with the people that went to these like Ivy league unions, which is incredible, but are there any, what are the main lessons that you've taken from, connecting with those people and working on those projects? Is there anything that really sticks out to you as something that you've taken back?

Haynes: 4:29

Yeah, sure. Look, I think they like being in Australia, I think sort of growing up in Australia, we came to Australia when I was eight. And I grew up in the Northern suburbs of Melbourne and, for a long time, that was sort of the world on here, so the Northern suburbs of Melbourne, and then you, you meet other Aussies when you travel and you see that their perspectives are global, right. And your ability to make a difference is, is, is global. And so when, when I meet sort of folks in San Francisco, they're the MERS, the biggest takeaway for me is that, like don't be afraid of starting an idea or having a business that can have a global. Impact on things. And sometimes in Melbourne we can sort of get isolated room in Australia where we can get isolated being on this part of the world and, and sort of lose sight of what's going on in the states and Europe. But that's sort of, that's almost the emphasis of what I saw folks in San Francisco. They're like, look, there's a big problem. I'm going to try to fix it globally. And there is nothing that, you know and I'm going to, I'm not going to take no for an answer. So that, that relentless optimism, that relentless drive is what I saw in many Aussies in San Francisco. I, I many sort of, us folks out there as well and highly recommend all graduates all also the young adults to, to go over to the states experience it almost see that secret source of optimism, positivity relentless ambition, the drive to basically there's a problem I'm going to try to fix it. That, that, that grind, that hustle is sometimes w we lack that in Australia like, I'll give you a really good example, like you, you go there and you meet folks that have second or third jobs in our grads, they'll, there'll be a grad at sort of PWC. And then, on the side, they'll do tutoring or, there are nurse, but you know, on the side and on weekends and mine work sort of retail as well, which that's a concept of having second and third jobs is very foreign, at least in, in sort of the circles that I hang around in Australia. And it, it's not to say that's a positive because there are a whole bunch of sort of social issues that, that are there that forces people to be in that position, but just that grit and that determination and that positivity and that relentless drive is something that really stood out to me when I was there.

James: 6:42

Hmm. Yeah. that's really, that's interesting. It's, it's great to have that experience and take it back as well.

Haynes: 6:48

Yeah. And you sort of wonder why, we, we don't really see that in Australia. And I was listening to this interesting podcast. This podcast episode called the Aussie startup playbook podcast. And I think that w one of the episodes there where they talk about, the tall poppy syndrome in Australia, and the fact that We, you always get pegged back a couple of notches in Australia. If you are saying to be working a little bit harder and going and taking that extra risk and you get your mind saying, it's a Friday night, I want you going out and why, while you still working, why are you working here, your tutoring gig, or why do you have your business? Or what, why do you have X, Y, Z just come out with the rest of it, whereas in the states is, especially in San Francisco, it is the norm, to just spend your weekends working on a on a side project, on a side hustle like that, that is seen as the norm. And maybe it is that sort of cultural difference where sort of in Australia, you know, being on the side of the world, being that lucky country where afford to, we, we can't afford to be a bit more chill about things which, I never really saw in San Francisco, it was sort of go, go, go, or at all times,

James: 7:47

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really interesting that cultural shift. And I've heard that as well about the tall poppy syndrome about, when, like you saying, when someone starts to do a bit more they people are kind of like, well, you shouldn't be trying so hard. Like just chill man. Like,

Haynes: 8:02

Exactly, exactly. Right. So, sort of interested to, to hear, in your social group here to Hayden's lack, H how many folks have a side hustle or like an e-commerce store or sort of a second source of lack, a side hustle that on, on top of this sort of nine to five,

James: 8:19

Yeah, yeah. I don't know really none that I can think of off the top of my head, I think. The most like hard working people. I know the ones that, maybe they work a few hours extra, like at their core or their job or whatever, maybe they work 10 hours a day or something. But Yeah. no many people have that thing that they're getting like off to work, then they're straight onto

Haynes: 8:38

Yeah, yeah,

James: 8:39

like clock out and like Netflix time

Haynes: 8:42

yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think one of my mentors back in, in SF, would tell me, look, everyone's got their nine to five, but then everyone's got their five to nine as well. W w which is something that sort of stuck with me and, and, it's something that oh, you know, yeah. Something, I encourage everyone. Those who can, should definitely look to, to at least learn another skill or the side hustle their way into something.

James: 9:04

Yeah. Cause, cause on that, your, you have your own side hustles and things that you do. You're obviously involved in a lot of things in the start world in Australia. Was there any kind of, and it's this whole belief that you happy now around having a up and how great that can be, did that stem from, this time in Silicon valley or was there a key moment that you will like, okay, these, this is, this kind of thing is going to be really beneficial for people

Haynes: 9:26

Yeah. Absolutely. So, I, I stayed in New York for awhile right in the middle of the COVID pandemic and stayed in sort of lower east side right in the, in the middle of COVID then, third for the Australian sort of listeners listening to this. I don't know if you guys remember, Cuomo, the governor coroner having his daily press conferences. And I was in, in Manhattan right in the middle of that. And I saw the impact that. COVID has on, on small businesses and that sort of stuck with me. Cause you know, you just picture this, you're sort of living in sort of Manhattan and you're surrounded by these like bodegas and delis and sort of family stores. And it's an immigrant families coming to America, putting the whole life savings into this tiny little grocery or deli COVID happens. The entire city is deserted. Everything stops. Yet you see these business owners still trying to make a living and that's. That visual stuck with me and a big part of what I, a big part of my values and what I've learned is, you, you should always try to out work and have that grit and determination to not just. Have your nine to five, but you know, have a business on the side. And that's really sort of stuck with me. I've seen, going back to New York and, and seeing these delis with these family businesses that were closing down, they, their kids, these, kids of immigrant folks would go to school or would have their day job or would come back and work in their parents sort of business and help them out with inventory, with marketing and all these sort of things. And, I sort of took a step back and said, look, I can do, my nine to five Masa, corporate job. I've worked with folks that have done that and that's certainly fine. Folks have kids and, and families and other commitments. And that's certainly cool, but I, I saw the level of grit and drive and determination there and I thought, yeah, That's really freaking amazing, right? Like we, I, I don't want to look back at the end of my career, for grads listening to this and young folks, we're probably going to work for about 40 to 50 years. I, I don't want to look back at the end of that same. I didn't take a risk. I didn't go out and build something and, and have something that will last post my career. I really want to have an impact. So that's, that's sort of the fuel that is in me to, to go look. Yeah. You've got your day job, but then, where else can I add value? Where else can I like what are the challenges and projects that I can take on? So that, that sort of visual or being in the lower east side, the city is deserted. You've got an immigrant family with a ton of debt paying a ton in the rent, still trying to make that work. That sort of grit not sort of stuck with me. The second part. I think in high school I had a really formative economic stager. I was sort of probably need 10 and 11 on, 16, 17 years old. Didn't really know what to do. I, I, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a pilot. Turns out you have to be good at physics and I suck at physics, so that was out the door. And then I had this his name is Lucas Benda and, I had him as my economics teacher and he explained the world to me in, in through markets like demand and supply. I thought this is really interesting. And has I spent more time learning economics and, and sort of learning how markets work. It became really clear to me the power of owning. You need to bait you know, just informal different forms of resources, capital, labor, natural sort of learning economics. And even through a university. The big thing that stuck with me is you want to be in a position where you're owning assets. And a big part of that was through, high school economics and, playing games like monopoly and realizing, looking at them. And if you own all the, all the properties that are monopoly and everyone's passing by and paying your rent, then you're in a, you're in a good spot. And so that's sort of stuck with me, right? It sounds really strange to say, but the ability of owning assets and building businesses and, and owning equity is something that stuck with me. So applying that now, You know, you work at a big bank or you work in an accounting firm, you're sort of an employee. And I wanted to see at least the hard work that I'm putting in result in a commercial and financial. So the impact for myself as an employee, you don't, you don't necessarily see that because, you're, you're getting a wage for working those 40 hour weeks. But you, you don't really see what the business is growing. How, how am I directly being compensated for that? And so a big part of that was, owning assets and having equity and, to extend that a bit more well, if I were to start a business or if I invest in other companies and have that almost a rich dad, poor dad mindset which everyone seems to read now that sort of, that would help. So those are probably the two things that kind of got me into this.

James: 14:02

Yeah, I think that's really killing. I think it's great that you're, your, you have that experience in those things that are driving you towards this, and then you're also helping people on their part to do this as well. I think it's really great. What are some, like, I'm not Sure. Have you seen people go through this kind of setup period where, they're creating that company and they want to turn it into something big. Are there any trends that you see in the people trying this? It perhaps makes them more likely to succeed than not.

Haynes: 14:32

Sure. Yeah, I think there's, I'd say three things. In what I've seen recently, at least in Australia of folks starting their businesses and whether that takes off or not. I think one is this circle of competence. You are more likely to succeed in your business if the business that you're in falls within an area that you're either really competent in or really passionate about. It's no secret that being a business owner is, is tough and you're working weekends, you're working long hours. If you're either not really, really competent or have a team that's really competent, or you're not really passionate about what you're doing and then forget about it because you will be found out and, your short term sort of interest and enthusiasm lasts a couple of weeks or a couple of months. And then, you sort of, you, you find it very difficult start. So that's one, I think the second thing is it's all about I call it structural shifts. You, you, you want to have a business. Has tailwinds, structural and economic tailwinds. There's no point now making in 2021 making sort of Kodak cameras right, because they're just, no one's going to buy them. Similarly, you, you want to be having solving a problem, but also doing it in a way that, is commercially viable and there are structural tailwinds behind this. So there's a really good website called trends that I R w w where they actually show you what people are Googling. There was a show you what, on a retail side, like what, what are people interested in? Where, where are the conversations happening? Where are the structural sort of forces in the economy? Where, where are they shifting it? And what direction are the wind blowing? And you want to have a business that is almost going downstream as opposed to fighting.

James: 16:09

um,

Haynes: 16:09

So a couple of really good examples on this that I've seen recently is I was advising a company yesterday where, two founders are building a business very similar to Mr. Yum. Mr. Yam is an Australian sort of a it's like a technology company. That's helping restaurants take their menus online and ability to order by a QR codes and make reservations digitally. And that's such a big sort of problem right now, right? So everyone is going into restaurants, they have QR codes and, th there is a structural shift and movement into using technology in restaurants. And so these guys are starting a business to take advantage of that. And they basically it's so much easier because they've got this massive structural tailwind behind them, as opposed to doing something that is going against the wind. So I hope that sort of, that analogy makes sense, Capital understanding and capitalizing structural shifts. Right now. And probably the third thing is, is sort of resources, but sort of capital resources and people. Again, sort of depending on what your business is as an have capital intensive or how technical it is, you've got, you've got to have the right people the right skills, the right financing, the right liquidity, liquidity survive, in, in startup world, we talk about zero to one, one to 10, 10 to a hundred. And each of those have different requirements from a resourcing perspective and undefined resources. People and financial and, and so in each of those, you have to sort of figure out, well, exactly what are the key skills I need to go from zero to one, 10 to a hundred the zero to one, one to 10, 10 to 100. What other skills do I need? Where am I lacking? And then sort of going from there. So those are probably the three things that I, that I see that sort of determine if something grows or not. In, in, in very sort of high level terms,

James: 18:01

Yeah. Yeah. I think those are really, really great pieces of advice. And I totally resonate with that. What you were saying about the tailwinds and things like that, because if you look at almost any company, really the timing of when they came out with their product is one of the most important things in their success. And that they're always writing some kind of underlying trend. Like even if it's something like Google and Facebook and things like that, they're, they're all riding, the, just like the growth of the internet

Haynes: 18:29

Sure. Yeah,

James: 18:30

that's Yeah, And even like, let's say someone starts a YouTube channel, like being early. On YouTube. It, even if you're, not even that good at YouTube at being early in riding the trend of it, as, just as an example, it's going to be a massive factor, even maybe more so than your actual skill in doing it. So, yeah, I totally agree with

Haynes: 18:48

yeah, absolutely. And just to go through a few examples, extend this a little bit. It'd be like, let's, let's play, let's have a hypothetical here with the Tim Ferriss podcast to be as popular today. Right. Has it is right now if it started today, right. Because right now there's a multi, there's so many podcasts. Right. And the Tim Ferriss show is probably the one that one of the most popular ones out there. Now he was one of the first sort of productivity performance coach sort of type podcasts. I probably guessed that if he started that now it probably won't be as successful had, in, in sort of four or five years that, and what it has been right now, I think he was one of the first people to do it and do it well. You also look at, a lot of, sort of social media companies a lot of tech companies where the timing is, right. You can be too early, you can be too late. Just finding that structural tail. And having that momentum where it all sort of comes together, all your ducks are in line. I think that's, yeah, some of it's skill and some of it's just luck, timing the right place, right time.

James: 19:53

Yeah. I think that's, that's really cool. And it's a good point about the about Tim Ferriss, because there's even a book that he, he spoken about. It's called the 22 immutable laws of marketing, I think. And one of the things in there is about almost creating your own category or creating your own niche and things like that. And that's the same idea where like, we'll create our own. Yeah. It will be the first podcast talking about productivity, which is almost what he did. And then he's able to ride the trend of podcasts becoming popular, and then that's enabled, as well as like his, his own growth, growing as is normally when you're also writing. Underlying trend as well growing. So like, I've even seen as this note no taking software, I use code obsidian and it's this is nice way similar to the notion in many ways, but I started using it like in March last year and it was quite early on and there are certain people in there that were starting to do tutorials and things like that. And it's the growth of that community has really enabled the growth of their own brand. Like probably more so than them actually improving and just growing it if the community was at the same, like the same level. So

Haynes: 21:00

Yeah, it's sort of another example just to add to that is look at some of the early YouTubers, right? So I remember sort of Casey Neistat, Mr. Bass, all these really famous folks right now started, probably want to say five to 10 years ago if Casey Neistat started today. It's so competitive now that I don't think he would be where he's at. If he started sort of right now look at talk, the, the Dameliai sisters, right. If they jumped on Tik TOK now, would they be as successful as what, what they would have been recently? I know it's, it's an interesting hypothetical it's sort of the point of you, timing is everything when, when starting a business. Yeah, so it, it's interesting to view businesses from a. From from what is a problem and how we can solve it to, how, what are underlying social trends that we can piggyback off of and sort of ride that wave and nothing lasts forever. Right. So, it'll be interesting to see what some of the Aussie sort of tech companies especially your Atlassian, NGO, your canvas, how, how they ride that wave and, and, and a big part of that is also pivoting. Once you realize, look, you you're in your first wave and that's sort of that that growth is starting to slow down, where can I pivot and switch to next? And sometimes you'll find the pivot can be more successful than the original push as well. Good examples of this. So right now, apple, I feel like it is mid pivot where, they were computing company, but now they're sort of pivoting into more of a services company with, with the whole bunch of products that have right now, so Twitter is another good one. If folks like Google's success, the company pivots yeah. Sort of just realizing that sometimes structural tailwinds change and sometimes it's on your company to, to shift along with that. And not be sort of resistant to that change.

James: 22:47

Are there any trends that you see at the moment that you think, yeah, we're almost right at the side of like, similar to how we were talking about the internet and different communities and things like that. What do you think about the start of at the moment and what kind of things would you, would you almost bet on, you know, to be popular, let's say in five years.

Haynes: 23:06

Right. I think let's, let's shorten that. Let's see where we've come from first in, in the last six to 12 months. And, and then sort of like, let's draw, extend that out for the next few years or so. So at least in Australia and also globally, we've been in lockdowns, for as long as I can remember, I want to say sort of two years. And everyone is, is working from home. Everyone's 80 from harm. Everyone's waking up from harm. Everyone's doing zoom calls now. I think there are, there's a fundamental change in the way people interact. And I don't think that we are going back to where we were previously, at least not to that same level. I think there is a greater, so in terms of like consumer behavior, I think there has been a structural shift and a greater acceptance for eating a car from getting your groceries delivered at harm working out at harm. And so that's my one sort of takeaway is that we are more comfortable now to use technology, to, to get things delivered and work sort of remotely. I think the second big takeaway is, is that I've seen so many people now start up e-commerce stores, Shopify stores start blogs and blogs and kick talk. And w w the, the second shift that I've seen in the last sort of two years people are going away from content consumption to content generation. Like, I think it's a lot more acceptable now for people to create content regarding like, whether it's a Tik, TOK websites, YouTube, podcasts, whatever. I think that's becoming more socially acceptable. So those sort of the two big trends I've seen recently. I now, so when I think when I, when I think ahead, yeah. How, how, how will this play out in the next five to 10 years? So if you're I, I, I love tech companies. I, I really believe in the power of technology to disrupt, dinosaur industries, but if you're. In the space where you're helping people take what was previously a outdoor function and you can help bring that indoors or, or even better do it remotely. I think there, there is a structural tailwind there. So what do I mean by that? So if your, a company that that's facilitating or enabling, food delivery remote working remote, like tele communications as well. I think that's a structural tailwind there that that's a place where I think we will not go back to old ways of working because I think that's just fundamentally changed. So the, the winners of this are probably, your companies like zoom. The companies like Peloton the losers of this, commercial real estate Like I'd hate to be CVRE right now. And like, it's, it's interesting to see how that will or will work in, in the next, five or 10 years. So I, yeah, definitely think if you're, if you're starting a company where you're helping people to be more remote and helping them live their best lives in a geographically agnostic way, then I think that's, you're, you're onto something there. I think that's that principle. The second principle is, SARC that we've seen, that people are now being content creators as and that's being okay and that's being encouraged. Well, if you're selling a business where you're helping people, you're advising people in terms of their marketing, their content creation whether it's data analytics and how to improve understanding their audience metrics. I think that's a big push there that a big structural tailwind that, you can sort of piggyback off in that, and it is now starting to become quite a congested space. Like there, there are a lot of folks there that are, sort of social media consultants and, it's a very congested space, but I think that, even if you look at YouTube, for example, you get certainly nations in whether it's, some, some examples in a property or, animals, or are the sort of nations which were previously, no one really logged, them buying a house, but now, I'm seeing so much of that. And, and, sort of figure out a way where you can be part of that that space. I, I know what the answer is right now, but that, that is definitely a structural tailwind. It is becoming now more socially acceptable to be content creators, as opposed to just content consumers. So that's another thing I think another shift that I've seen recently is again, going, touching back to what we talked about previously of people having multiple jobs. I really think that the future. Folks the, the future work model, I don't think it's necessarily five days a week, nine to five. I think that w COVID and lockdowns have shown that what people can actually get work done when, when they're not in the office. And sometimes not even when it's nine to five folks are in different time zones. I remember when I was in in the states, COVID hit a lot of people left San Francisco, New York, and decided to go to Midtown cities. It's hard to go to Hawaii and Latin America, and I still got their work done. But the point I'm trying to make is this, this nine to five, you've got to be in the office. Culture, I think is, is yeah, I don't think we'll have that anymore. So what does that mean going forward and what are the tailwinds? It means that I think a couple of things, one, I think people are more likely to take on second and third jobs. Whether it's, I'm going to work this job. And our four days a week, another job, one day a week, and another job, another half a day, a week, or I'm going to work three jobs. And I'm going to try to work part-time and all three. And it's going to be five days a week, or leveraging sites like Fiverr and air Tasker, and being in that gig economy space where I'm not really an employee, but I'm still, I'm still working and, and I'm being part of the gig economy space. So I think that's, that's another sort of takeaway that I've seen the last two years that I still think we'll stick around for the next five or 10 years. And that will be a structural tailwind. So in terms of starting a business in this space, it's, I think gig economy and understanding, well, okay, so you're a contractor. What what are the skills that I have. And what are the gaps that are added out there that I can plug in and, and work on it. So, for example, if you're an engineer, I can not take on freelance engineering, gigs if you're a visual creator or visual artists in, in, in Columbia, CA can I take on a few tasks that, are in the U S or Australia and get paid in dollars, but, again, living in pesos, for example. So I think you'll see a lot of that coming through in the next few years. So yeah, I definitely think it's not a good place to be if you're a commercial real estate. Cause I think folks just working remotely and things are becoming very location agnostic. So I think those are some of the structural tailwinds that I was sort of talking about there as well. And I think, and, and just sort of, another point I'd like to add. Yeah. I think companies that are realizing the power of users' data. And I think my suspicion is a lot of these sort of large tech companies big structural tailwind that I'm seeing is that they're realizing, they're realizing that customer data is really valid. And then in acknowledging that they've decided to almost build platforms, I think, if you have a business where you are a platform where you're connecting, but buyers and sellers or your, yeah, you're a platform where you're providing multiple products and services that are both interconnected in different ways, but you're a platform that, and having that moat, I think that is a structural shift that I'm seeing where companies are now going well, how can I be a marketplace? How can I be a platform? And you'll see a lot of these companies where you'll see a lot of investor pitch decks, where they talk about we're a platform. We connect buyers and sellers. We rely on network benefits or we, we want to build a suite of products, not just sort of one. But we want to build a suite of products and try to get fill in that, that. Gap from from sort of a low to all the way to, the nth degree. I think adding that sort of another change that I'm seeing.

James: 30:56

Hmm. Yeah. I think it's really exciting. All these things we've got to look forward to in the future. And some of those are, Yeah, I'm really excited to, for those to come to fruition. I want to take this conversation into more of your career and things. Now I'm curious if there's a particular failure that you've had in your career that you would say, okay, that's my favorite failure. That's one that allowed me to do, or, really, having that experience led me to, to greater things. Was there any failures that almost are your favorites?

Haynes: 31:29

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I've got several James, I've got several. I, I'm trying to think of what, the, the one that's sort of had the biggest impact. I joined PWC when, when I was 18 PWC Australia. I was a trainee. I applied when I was in high school. I barely knew to be honest, I barely knew what PWC was in high school. I just sort of applied. Cause I know, I think I came across a website and they were, they were looking for folks and I thought I'll apply and see what sort of happens. And I was sort of lucky enough to, to join as a trainee and I was there for the, just under two years. And then, some of the, I think my biggest sort of feedback that I had was, that was my first job and sort of understanding how to communicate. Caught in a corporate way. I deal with clients in sort of corporate way. I had some really sort of strong feedback on, on, what Haynes this is. This is how you should think about dealing with clients and this, this is how you sort of put together a memo or the, in, in the audit world, this is how you put together a work paper. I mean, this is sort of how your, you deal with client relationships, all that was new to me, I was sort of end of first year uni that I started and was all new to me. And, I think the, the biggest sort of failure I had at that point, or it wasn't so much failure, but, just having. A lot of really constructive feedback, which you never really get in high school or at university, because a lot of that feedback is just academic. You've got an essay you got to test, did you do well or not? And how could you have improved, but sort of in the corporate workplace. And this was my first job. And, I had some really really like constructive, but really strong sort of feedback on, if you're in a meeting, they use us, this is sort of how you go about dealing with clients. So, if this is a client problem, this is how you should go about sort of fixing it. If you're sort of putting together a, an audit work paper, it gets very technical. No one really showed me how, how, the corporate world works. It's, it's an interesting sort of skillset at that point. This is how you put together audit work paper, this is how you interpret and apply accounting standards and, and just sort of feedback along the way that was it, it showed me a couple of things. It showed me one that We do it, like just generally, like, I, we do a really poor job of teaching folks and getting them workplace already and job ready. Right. And you go from high school to university and then, bang you're in work and you're wearing an oversized suit, in a and you're in meetings that you don't really know what's going on. But I think that sort of initial sort of training and, and I, yeah, I, I think that I'm sure it's got a lot better now, but you know, that transition from high school straight into the workplace, that was a very steep transition for me. And I probably made a ton of mistakes in there as well. The second thing I learned was that audit was probably not, and still is not for me. I was an audit there and one of my first clients was a listed fund in a listed fund manager. It was an infrastructure infrastructure fund Hastings fund management. That was my first client there. And I think we quickly realized pretty early on that audit was not what I wanted to do. For the next 40 years I had this sort of misconception when I first joined was that, your first job is basically what you'll be doing for the next 40 years and your career is linear, but you know what, that's not the case. And at that point I realized, you know what, audit, it's not for me. I didn't wake up every morning, say, this, this is what I want to do for the rest of my career. I wanted something a bit more engaging. It has a post to retrospective work and working for clients. I felt like I wanted to build my own thing. I want to do my own thing. And that was sort of the, the thing that I learned, but yeah, sort of biggest failure was, during sort of it wasn't sort of one sort of thing, but it was just. How to, how to think and how to communicate in a corporate way with sort of keeping your clients sort of first. I think that was a big takeaway. For me. But yeah, along the way, I've made so many mistakes. Like, I, I was, I think I was telling you this before, but you know, I remember the one time I was my first client one of my senior consultants told me to print, print a few files and print a few documents. And I was like, yeah. Okay, fine. It's probably like my first week of joining PWC, I'll go print some stuff. And walk around to the printers were, or, these massive corporate printers on, and I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. These massive printers I was used to having just a. Sort of printer at home. And so I knew how that worked. And then I remember the senior telling me go print. This stuff has to be color double-sided and give me a whole bunch of stuff. I'm like, yes, yes, yes. I've got this. How hard can it be print some papers? And I'm done. I walk into the printers and I was just intimidated by this massive thing. It was like you needed to have a cart to swipe in, in, in and, and use the printer. And it was, it was just nuts. And so I spent 45 minutes in the printer room, just trying to figure out how the sprinter works. And I was like, what am I doing? I can't print this. And it's taken me 45 minutes. Like, what does a senior consultant to think of me? I'm done this is not going to work. But yeah, I think, she came, she was like, what is Haynes doing? Why is he taking this long to print a few pieces of paper? And I think she sort of helped me out at the end, but that was sort of a big realization that there are, there's so much that I don't know. And I should. Be open and honest and say, look, I don't know how to do this thing. You just help me out. I don't think I'm the only one in this situation. I think there are a lot of grads listening to this, whether they're like, okay, I've got these really dumb, silly questions that I should know how to do, but I don't, because I've never experienced this before. Like my advice is just, suck it up and ask for help. It doesn't matter how silly it is. Yeah, that, that was an interesting experience.

James: 36:46

Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's great advice too. And asking those questions and even getting in the habit of some people have told me, and it asked those questions earlier so that when, you're six months into it, and you're

Haynes: 36:58

yeah,

James: 36:58

asked, they assume that you know what you're doing by that point. So it becomes difficult, even more difficult than to ask. So

Haynes: 37:05

yeah,

James: 37:05

added to get them out.

Haynes: 37:08

Yeah. I always encourage people to ask questions upfront and early because the last, that's, that's much easier. And that that's a better outcome than waiting, right. Till the end. And then figuring out of, sorry, I didn't know this. And so I've just wasted all my time, spinning my wheels. Like that's, that's something I advise all my teams and all my mentees just, be up front, just own your areas that you need help with because we were all, we were all grads at one point, so, you think about some of the most inspirational and intimidating folks that you might've worked with and just realize, look, everyone was an intern. Everyone was a grad, we've all been there. We sort of overthink things sometimes. Right. So yeah, just to remove that away and just be sort of direct in, in seeking help.

James: 37:51

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's really cool. Speaking of questions and asking questions. You've like, you're saying you've moved around a little bit, eh, even finding out all that wasn't for you and things like that. Are there any questions that you, that you ask when you're moving roles and when you're in some way you don't want to go and you're looking for somewhere else to go, what kind of questions would you ask people to get ready to move into something that you might prefer?

Haynes: 38:17

Yeah. I think that's a really good question because you don't really know what something's like and unless you've, I think you've experienced it, you can, maybe there's a couple of things you can ask folks that are in that role or folks in that company before you join and say, look, w what is the career trajectory? Like? What's the co is the company growing? What's the culture? Like, why is this role opened as someone left? If so, why did they leave? What, what's the, what, what, what's the message that, what's the vision that some of the key founders and executives have These are all some of your almost investigative questions that you're asking to figure out something is the right fit for you. And, I think one of the things that's really important to think about when you're interviewing for jobs is, they're interviewing you as much as you're interviewing them. And so like, I understand what the culture is like understanding. Do folks go out at the end of the week, to have dinner at work or is it, everyone does their own thing, do to folks appreciate you asking for help or is it more independent? Is it a co is a big team? Is it a small team? What does career progression look like where, where do folks that work in this role end up in five or 10 years time? Those questions I'd ask and I think about. When I'm joined air wall X before I accepted the role, I I was sort of lucky. I knew a couple of people there that, that already worked there and I reached out to them. And I said, look, I'm, I'm interviewing what's the culture, like, do enjoy working there. What are your hours like? Cause you'll get the HR sort of spiel. Right. But you really want to figure out what's going on. So, my advice is just reach out to folks that work there. If you've got mutual connections on LinkedIn, especially and just understand, where is the company growing and if you were in this role for the next five years, where would you end up? And what are the skills that you want. And one thing, James, I'd probably wrap this with, with this context of your career is not linear and this is sort of touching back on what I said previously. When, when I first started, I, I thought a career is linear. It's this linear trajectory. You go from grad to, analyst to a senior analyst to to a manager. And it's not like that. I hate to break it to, to everyone. It's it definitely doesn't work like that. I think of it almost as a rollercoaster where, there are times where you, there are phases where you will go linear, but then, you might pivot into another company or you might change roles. You might change careers. You might have a family, you might have kids, you might take some time off and you might take a couple of steps sideways. You might skip a couple of steps, the point I'm trying to make, it's not linear. And, and I think career counselors do a disservice to everyone by telling folks that, okay, this is the job you want. And this is a linear path to get to that. I don't necessarily think that's the case. It, it's more about experience developing your experiences and your skillsets, and, if you want to be an a, audit partner yes. It might seem linear, but you know, a lot of folks now are working in industry for a couple of years, and then coming back, if you want to be a CFO, it's, there's different ways of going about it. You've got the banking road, you've got sort of the, the controller role, but the VP way of going about it or the FP and a way of going about it. So, I especially sort of type a personalities. They're just about to enter into the workforce. They see things as linear. I, my strong advice is to not see it that way. You will have kids at some point or travel or you'll take some time off to, to go do your own thing or set up your own business. And that's okay. And, and that's sort of the, I was telling my sister this the other day, actually, and she's applying for grad jobs right now. It's, it's like, it's, it's not linear. You're allowed to not know exactly what you want. It's okay to try different things and, and, almost sort of sample different jobs and see what you like and see what you don't like. I'm a big fan of just reaching out to folks in the jobs that you aspire to get and picking their brain over coffee or reserve and say, look, I, this is why I want, this is why I'm interested in the role. I wanna understand what your day to day is. This is why I think I would be a good fit, but I like before I invest my time and, and, and some of my career, I want to understand if this is the right fit for me. And you'll find that you'll avoid making a whole load of mistakes. If you go down this sort of coffee chat sort of approach to understanding what a career is all about there's that that's one sort of way of going about it. I spoke to another friend of mine food decided to do a master's, you worked in investment banking. Didn't realize that you didn't really want to do that longterm. His passion was engineering, so he did his master's in engineering and through the course of doing his master's program, he realized, yeah, this, this is, this is actually what I want to do. It, it validated to him what his interests and passions are and, and sort of confirm that, yes, this is what he wants to do. For, for foreseeable future. And now, yeah, he's sort of working sort of in data analytics and sort of computer science and he really enjoys that. So that's another option, taking the post-grad study of.

James: 43:12

Yeah. I like that a lot. I like that a lot. I think those questions, especially that one you mentioned would be there's so much you mentioned there, but that, that question about where it is. If I get this role, where do I end up where the people that had done this previously go, I think that's really great question. And I think what you were saying about sitting down with people for coffee, I think is really important too. Especially if they're, you don't necessarily have to know them before reaching out either. And I think that's likely something that you've done too is, reaching out to people who work there, maybe like you said, you have just mutual connections with them. Lots of people, especially like we'll just happily sit down. Even if it's nowadays you can just tee up a half an hour call like very easily. And most people will slightly go into their schedule, like, really easily. So yeah, I think that's really great advice.

Haynes: 43:57

yeah. It is amazing. It sort of amazes me how little that happens. Australia, right? Where w. Students or young grads sort of reaching out to folks and asking for a copy, like coffee to pick their brains like that it surprises me how little that happens. In the states they don't, it's, it's almost a regular thing. You'll get your alumni or, other folks just reaching out to you and it happens almost every other day. Whereas here, I don't know, it's I don't think that's caught on yet. I also think like, in the states there's a stronger a like, college alumni culture. So, if you went to a certain university, you will actively reach out to all of the folks that went to that university regardless of where they are now and sort of reach out, introduce yourself to them. Whereas in Australia it doesn't really happen. It might be because, there are just fewer universities in Australia compared to the states. And people don't really have that sort of Not patriotism, but like, feeling of like belonging for the university is that other thing that sort of happens in Australia, right. Yeah, but definitely, if you're a young student listening to this and then you'll like, look I, I looked, I'm applying to this company and there, there are folks there that I've mutual connections with, or have gone to the same university that I've gone to, flick them an email worst case. Like they just leave you on red. And that's it, like they don't respond, but that's the worst case you haven't lost anything. The, the best case scenario is that you have a really engaging conversation with them and, whether they steer you towards the role or away from it you'll learn something about the role that you probably wouldn't have known about, and in save you potentially a mistake. So yeah, I think that's something that I strongly advise people to.

James: 45:38

Yeah. Yeah. I totally green. It's. Okay. Really cool. Even from that perspective of reaching out for a lot, certain roles that you want to do, or even just mentorship in that if you want to improve at the current role you're doing as well. I think that's really big. And Yeah, I think like, because it is so underutilized, like you said in Australia, and I agree that like, many people done this, instead of doing this, there's so much more value to get out of it because the people you are reaching out to don't usually get things like this and that they're more than happy to help. So I think it's important that you utilize that while it's still something that is uncommon.

Haynes: 46:12

yeah, absolutely. And I can't think of a better way to differentiate. From, the pool of graduates. And I, and probably grudges crowds, don't none of this, but when you're applying for a job, like your one in thousands of applicants and it's just unrealistic for people to, go through thousands of applications. So to the extent that you can and you can differentiate yourself that's, that's a huge plus. I think there was a Tim Ferris podcast sort of about this and about networking and how do I approach people, but he sort of talks about it more from a entrepreneurial perspective. But I think the principles still apply. Like you have to be very careful about just cold, cold emailing, cold, reaching out to people and saying, can I pick your brain? Because folks are generally busy. And you have to be sort of conscious of their time and their calendars. I think you've got to sort of structure that. I look for two things. One is, is this person legitimate? If I say yes, will they actually take this seriously? And will they show up on time? Do they, what do they have a past sort of background, whether tertiary or work experience to, to validate their interest you know, is personal legitimate. So that's sort of number one. And the second thing is, what is this person looking to get out of this. D what do they mean by just pick my brain? Is it just, you just want to have a coffee chat and get a referral out of me? Or do you genuinely have a specific question that you, you would like me to help you out with? So I think when actually structuring this, not gonna elaborate on this a little bit more, but when you are called reaching out to people, be very clear on what it is you actually want to get out of it. I think you have to be sort of wary of people's times. And that's something to think about as well. So, if you are looking for referrals, I look, I, I want to learn more about the role, what some of the challenges are. And, and then, if you're happy with this, can you refer me to someone? Or if your, if you have a specific question, actually like let them know. I think just being efficient in this is, is the name of.

James: 48:04

Yeah. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And I think, being genuine is, is so important. And I think too, like you were saying, being specific with the ask as well is it's something that I try and do when I'm asking people to come on the podcast as well, which is a good exercise for this kind of thing where, you know, leading with some kind of value or something that's going on with their life. And then maybe some context as to why you're reaching out to them. And then then finishing with things that you specifically want to have the conversation about, I think is really important. And even it just shows that you've gone to more effort to investigate them and what they're about and what they do and things like that because. If they, it's almost like if you put in low effort and they say yes, then like they've almost agreed to, that's kind of the bar that they'll accept to speak to people. And so people don't want to set that so low that they're going to say yes to anyone. That's like, yeah. Hey, can I speak to you? Do you know what I mean? They're going to set up a bit higher. So like are only speak to people that actually genuinely interested in what they're doing. So I think that's so important.

Haynes: 49:03

Yeah, absolutely. And know, you have to put yourself in their shoes, right? Yeah. Well, when you've got sort of a tight sort of schedule, you want to make it impactful. And the best way to do that, just being clear on what your objectives are and what you want to get out of it. Yeah,

James: 49:18

yeah. Great. Well, I've got one last question for you Hayes. We've covered so much in this, in this conversation, a lot of value here, but I want to ask one more and it's a question I ask all the guests and it's about if you were gr I graduated. Maybe let's say starting next year, you're about to start your grad role. What is some advice or maybe one piece of advice that you would give yourself?

Haynes: 49:39

Oh, that is a good question. I would say I think broad just, just, I would, I'll tell myself that, it's important to keep my own personal interests and hobbies and not lose them. When, when going into a Gregg sort of role I think that the person's, I'm getting a grad job. I think it's well documented and there's enough resources out there. But I think what we don't talk about is the importance of keeping your own personality and your, your own hobbies. Hasn't joined your, your sort of big company, right? I think it's so easy. And I've seen this so many times when your, you go through a university, you've got all these hobbies and interests and passions, and then you enter the workforce and then it's all consuming, right? It's nine to five, but it's not really nine to five. Right? It's, it depends on what role you work for and what company you work for, but you'll be doing long hours. You'll find that you'll sometimes work in weekends and miss birthdays and dinners. My, looking back at it, my thing is you want to keep your passions and interests and hobbies with your, for as long as you can. I, I don't let your work life basically take over your whole life. Because it's easy to do that. There, there is always work. There will always be work. But you know, if you're into sport or gym or dancing or teaching or mentoring, or have a business or whatever, whatever it is that gives you that joy and satisfaction in your life you need to keep that because you'll realize that there are times when. Isn't great. And whether you've had a tough week or you it's, you're really stressed you do rely on your personal hobbies and interests to basically pick you up from that for a lot of people, it's their relationships with their partner or your faith or working out in the gym. The, the crazier work gets the more important those parts of your life become to keep you grounded and keep you sane. If you do get to a point where your work is all encompassing and there's nothing else you burn out very quickly, you'll also look back and realize that all you've done is work and we've got nothing else to show for it. So my, my advice or fall is optimistic. 21 year old grads is keep your hobbies, keep your interests, KP passions. What I have have worked to be around that Yeah, as opposed to just having work be the only thing that you have in life. It also makes you so much more interesting knowledgeable and the more senior you go of the year, like you, relationships become super important in a workplace. And you'll draw on those experiences, traveling or having a business or working out you'll draw on those parts of your life in order to build those relationships in the workplace, the more senior you get. So that's, that's something I'd probably recommend. There were a couple of set of principles that I'd like to sort of cover as well, I think, one of the things that sort of stuck with me is like Charlie Munger's mental models, I'm a big, big fan of Charlie manga. And for folks that don't know who he is he's sort of the almost the second in charge at Berkshire. So it helps out the Warren buffet and just one of the smartest people you'll ever meet. And he's got this interesting mental model called like, the lattice theory. And I think this is really relevant for grads and, and folks listening to the show and a lot of series all about, what are the developing nations in one area, but also working on developing experience and skill sets and another area that it's totally unrelated. Right? And you put those together and you find where the overlap. And it's in that overlap where you'll have a lot of growth. So what do I mean by this? So for example, and this is a really good case for entrepreneurs as well. So if you're an accountant, but you're also interested in dance and the arts, figure out what the overlaps are between that, can I be a financial advisor for a creative dance company or we'll figure out what, what the overlaps are, and you'll find a ton of opportunities in those overlaps, if you're an engineer but also are into design figure out what overlaps exist between those indices. And sort of dive in there if you're a builder, but also, I really into cars, figure out what the overlaps are between that and dive into that. So it's almost like I call it the ladder story. It's this mental model of figuring out exactly what am I, current skills and interests and passions, and also try to develop sort of something else. That's totally unrelated. Also develop that skills and expertise in that area. And over time, you'll figure out that the overlap in those seemingly unrelated areas you'll find a lot of growth and opportunities in there as well. So a really good example, I sort of picked this up from this YouTube called. I'm not, I'm sure you've probably heard of him. I feel like a lot of people have, this, this is a YouTuber that combines, med and like being a medical student and being an entrepreneur. And he's able to combine these seemingly unrelated things and, and do so well because he's in a space that there aren't many people right now. Right? So the ability to combine two or three different niches and find what's the overlapping area, what and see if we can be in that space, you'll find that you're the only one there. And you'll, you'll do really well. So I'm not sure if that sort of makes sense, but that's, that's a mental model that stuck with me for a while.

James: 54:56

Yeah, no, I liked that a lot enough. I've heard that even we've spoken about Tim Ferriss a few times today, but I've heard him describe that as well. And there's a guy called Scott Adams. I don't know if you've heard of him, but he talks about this too, where it's like the stacking of things. And like you've said, Yeah, the crossover between things allows you to be, if you're the best, like if you're a good accountant and a good public speaker, for example, then maybe you're a really good public speaker, a public speaker about accounting stuff.

Haynes: 55:25

yeah, Yeah,

James: 55:26

And then you can at once, as soon as you stack on like two or three of those, you can become really good at. And one of the best few people at that kind of niche thing, that there won't be many people who are also good at that thing.

Haynes: 55:37

Yeah. I, I, I always give this advice for, a lot of my friends are sort of creatives, whether you're a musician or you're a chef you're in that creative industry, if you can find another Skill set that your you don't have to be an expert in, but remotely proficient see where the overlaps are and see if we can be in that overlapping space, because you'll find that you'll be there. There are not many people in that space. And yeah, you'll find a lot of opportunities there. So I encourage sort of grads to think about that as well. The, the other sort of point I wanted to discuss quickly is, I, I see a lot of, sort of, this misconception about working for fancy companies and fancy titles. I think there's a, and that's naturally not folks want to work for large companies are very prestigious and, and, with fancy titles, my advice is to do a 180 and veer away from that. I think you're better off working for really competent managers, really inspirational people has opposed to the, biggest. The biggest consulting company where your you know, like a small cog in a big, bigger sort of ecosystem. And, I think that's, and that's not to say that you won't learn anything with joining the big banks or joining big consulting companies. You'll get a fantastic grounding and understanding how businesses work. But my, if I'm an intern or if I'm a person about to start my first grad job, I would place more emphasis on the person I'm working for. And the role and the skills and experience I will get as a purse to the name. When my CV, I, I am part of the early work community which is a slack group of like Ozzy founders and, and folks working in startup companies and startup companies most do. Right. And so if you work at one of these startup companies and you go to a dinner party, like, oh, I'm, I'm head of growth at this startup. No, one's going to know what the company is, but that's okay. Right. You're learning a lot. You're, you're building all these skills. You're, you're better off at least sort of has a grad and early in your career learning as much as you can being challenged in as many ways as possible as opposed to working sort of in large. So in my view, anyway, working in a large company where you're doing the same thing repeatedly over and over and over again, Sure it might sound great on your CV. But I'm a big believer in, in developing your skills and having really interesting experiences. And I, my view is that you generally get that in smaller companies and in startups where you're working on a million things at once, sure. You're an engineer, but you're, for example, you might be a software engineer, but you know, in a startup with 10 people, you're helping out with product design, you're helping out with go to market strategy. You're wearing multiple hats. And I think that's where you get a lot of growth. When I joined anabolics we were a series C company. I sort of joined as a finance manager, but I did a whole bunch of stuff on tax on, on go-to market, on, on audit, on financial control, on budgeting, on, on FP and a, on like a whole bunch of stuff that you wouldn't necessarily see at a bigger company. Cause all at a bigger company, you'd have each person looking at each of them. Things individually. So yeah, I connected to that, find someone that inspires you and go work for that person. So if, if you want to go in a certain profession and there's someone that's absolutely killing it and is super competent that you admire and respect, reach out to them and say, look, can I shadow you for a week? And I can I work in your team? And, and see if we can make that happen. I really feel strongly about folks should be, stay clear away from working at a company, just for the name on the CV, but working at a company for the skills and experiences that you'll develop along the way.

James: 59:17

Yeah. I like that a lot. And I think there's something we've spoken to, I've spoken to people about on the podcast previously about, generalization and specialization and a lot of the things I've read and in people online or different things like forums and stuff that I've read a lot of the people that you become more, like successful are those people that have the general. Background. And then they become like, they're almost a general, a generalized specialist, right? So they start off being a generalist and then they work to become a specialist in one of those areas, but they can still do like the whole they're really still quite broad.

Haynes: 59:55

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's, I, I, the, the mental model on this, I think it's called the T theory where you want to be a generalist sort of broad, but you want to sort of specialize. So go deep down in one area and sort of touching back on what we previously sled. If you can sort of go deep down one area or two areas and find where, where that overlap is between. Then you've got opportunities there that, you'll that not many people will have because not many people are in those overlapping areas. So yeah, I mean, that's, that's something that's worked well for me. And it's something that, yeah. Hopefully I can encourage people to do this something similar.

James: 1:00:33

Yeah, I think that's great advice, certainly. And I think some of these things we've spoken about today through the whole podcast around, mentoring, these kinds of mental models, generalization going overseas, seeking opportunities, finding the right boss or things like that are really fundamental things for a grad to know as they begin their career and really things that will save you a lot of time and a lot of headache, if you can, be conscious of them and hear them and then apply them early in your career to, see you're on the right path as you begin your career. So yeah, there's so much value in here. Hanes. Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

Haynes: 1:01:04

Sure. No worries, James. This was great. Happy to be back on. And if anyone has any questions, feel free to shoot me a LinkedIn DM or find me@haynesateightysevenadvisory.com. 87 is the number 87. The name of my sort of advisor business. So yeah, feel free to reach out to me. I'm always happy to, to help.

James: 1:01:22

great. Yeah. And we'll have those links to all hands, his staff and his contact details and everything in the show notes. So, yeah. Thanks so much again, hands becoming old and yeah, we'll see you around.

Haynes: 1:01:31

Awesome. Thanks James. Talk to you soon.

James: 1:01:39

Thanks so much for listening to that episode with Hanes D'Souza I think he is so, so passionate about graduates and about graduate careers. And we covered so much in that episode and so many little nuggets that just, you know, CA can really make a big difference in your life and make a big difference in your career. If you want to find out more about Hanes. Follow the links in the description. And if you want to find out more about this episode and might take aways, if you want to see them go graduate theory.com and find the link to this episode, the link will also be in the show notes. And if you want to get this kind of information, if you want to get my takeaways and different episodes straight to your inbox, please consider subscribing to the newsletter. Alternatively, whatever podcast platform you listening, or you can also subscribe there, listening and sharing this episode really help grow the podcast. So I would really appreciate it. If you could share this episode with a friend and get the good message out there. Thanks so much again for listening today. And I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.