Is Moses Obsolete? A Conversation with Zevi Slavin of Seekers of Unity

Welcome to the second episode of the fourth season of "Truths: Jewish Wisdom for Today" podcast (formerly Jewish Wisdom for Business and Life). In this episode, host Levi Brackman engages in a thoughtful conversation with Zevi Slevin, founder of the "Seekers of Unity" YouTube channel. Renowned for his insights on Jewish thought and philosophy and his series on Maimonides' teachings, Zevi deepens our understanding of Jewish philosophy and mysticism, exploring its intricate balance between orthodoxy and individual interpretation.

We delve into the complex interplay between personal belief and community belonging, highlighting the need for continual negotiation between personal values and communal norms. Our conversation takes us to the realms of Neo Hasidism, as we probe the boundaries of traditional Jewish communities, questioning orthodoxies and advocating for a more inclusive definition of being a Hasid.

Reflecting on the role of faith, community, and leadership, the conversation highlights the value of profound relationships within one's spiritual journey. We discuss how the journey of faith is not solitary but involves deep connections with peers, mentors, and spiritual leaders.

We also examine the ever-evolving nature of faith and religious institutions, underscoring the necessity for continual refreshment and renewal of faith. Our discourse further evolves into the pivotal role of religious leadership, a topic on which we hold different views. Zevi argues for a decentralized model, advocating empowered leadership where everyone channels their divine essence outwards, an egalitarianism where everyone has the potential to share immense wisdom and insight.

Levi, however, pointed out that this shift should not eliminate the possibility for extraordinary leaders to emerge from unexpected places.

Ultimately, this episode will inspire you to recognize the divine potential in everyone and empower ordinary people to do the extraordinary. So join us as we navigate this rich tapestry of Jewish wisdom, challenge traditional hierarchies, and encourage new forms of genius and leadership, fostering the belief that everyone can contribute significantly to the world.

Transcript

0:12

The Navy Franklin hip-width truths, Jewish wisdom for today. Thank you so much for joining us today, we have a real treat. I have a conversation with Zebbie Slevin and that conversation was relatively wide ranging. And he and I come from similar backgrounds have taken somewhat different paths, but he is the founder of seekers of unity. You should go and check out his YouTube channel seekers of unity. I found him because I was doing a Google search about my monities, the great medieval Jewish philosopher and his book, the guide to the perplexed. And. Is that B has this really wonderful series of lectures on that. You should go and check that out as well. But he and I had a conversation. We started off talking about my monities, who, everyone likes to co-op as their own. And we moved on from that talking about leadership and how each individual can be a leader in their own. Right. And whether it has really been a. Shift in the way you lead the ship should really be seen in today's day and age. I hope you enjoy the conversation, listening to it as much as I enjoyed having it. I hope that It will be. And inspiring. And enlightening podcast for you as always love your feedback. Let me know what you think, but no further ado here. I present you my conversation with savvy sloppy.

Levi Brackman: 1:35

I am here with Zevi Slavin, I found you by a Google search looking for something to do with the Marine V or the guy that perplexed and I came across your videos, seekers of Unity. And I just was incredibly impressed. I'm very grateful that you're out there and you're doing this work and you're teaching these teachings, this tremendous amount of need for people who are able to teach these things with clarity and with intellectual honesty. This is something that you're doing, and I'm grateful for that. I'm also grateful that you spending some time talking to me today. And we, my pleasure. We had a little bit of preamble conversation and we got into talking about the ram. And I was sharing with you everyone basically claims the Rambam as their own and read their own teaching into Maimonides why do you feel that, when you have someone like the Rambam, everyone needs to claim it has his own what? What do you think is going on

Zevi Slavin: 2:25

there? Yeah. It's funny, they say a joke that Ram in English that his, the English name. Is self indicative of the situation because he's my monies, right? Everyone wants to claim him as they run. No, he is mine. He is my monies. My monies. So everyone wants the monies. Everyone wants the Moses Ben Maiman and Maman Nas Far. It's a fascinating thing. There's a broad consensus that my monies is the greatest Jewish philosopher who ever lived. So if one is seeking to place themselves within a legitimate. Line of Jewish intellectual thought, and certainly people do that's important for people. They want to be, real Jews. Then their safe bet is to anchor themselves into Judaism's greatest philosopher Moses Maimonides. That certainly is a good case. I think there's also another component here, which is at Maimonides is one of the only Jewish philosophers to try and establish. A Jewish form of orthodoxy. Orthodoxy, not in the sense that we use the word today in Jewish circles, but in a technical, philosophical, exactly. Orthodoxy the correct doxology, the correct belief that a Drew must have based on early works in Thena. But Mamon establishes 13 principles of faith. And in one of the great ironies of Jewish intellectual history, my is accused of being a heretic. Precisely for trying to set criteria by which one can be accused of being a heretic. Like that itself was seen as here radical by leader, Jewish commentators and philosophers. But I think that this sort of record setting authority that mon hold both in his legal halachic work in the Michan Torah and in his philosophical work, the guide for the perplexed is a sense of that he's this towering he's known as the, the Great Eagle. And I think people want to, people who have any question. Of of what's true in Judaism. If they can just read themselves into Maimonides, then that establishes a lot of cred, a lot of street cred. So that's probably what's behind

Levi Brackman: 4:30

it. Inherent in that is this intellectual dishonesty, right?

Zevi Slavin: 4:35

It's only intellectually dishonest if it's being done dishonesty. I think. I think there may be many people who legitimately do find themselves within the holes of Harmons if, and so if they're being honest, they're being honest. They're being dishonest. They're being dishonest.

Levi Brackman: 4:48

No, but in that section of Maimonides, which maybe fits them, so there are parts of Maimonides, which you know, you can pick out. And say, yes, I identify with. And because he wrote so much, but, to, you don't have to claim the entire Maimonides for yourself. And people tend to do that. And I, it's the kind of, what I'm trying to say is more, not just about mys, but this broader kind of thing there, but people want to feel, I think you've ta you've hit the nail on the head then in many ways, that people want to feel authentic. And if they anchor themselves into something, they can, they feel they're authentic. So people might say, ed, it's interesting because you have Neo Hasidism. I saw you, you had a conversation with Arthur Green, who I've never met, but obviously know of and read Tormented Master many years ago. But he, you find the New York Citizenism and they anchor themselves in Hasid on the one hand. On the other hand, they're obviously not. Hasidim by the, in any kind of traditional sense. So is that a similar kind of concept and why can't we have it? Like, why can't I pick and choose and say, there's bits of this that I really like. There's bits of that I really like and become your own thing without having to say, I am a Neil Hasid.

Zevi Slavin: 6:03

I think it depends on what we mean here. I think in many ways people might see me as a neo in some way. And I think that when you say that they're not Sid, I think that's, I think that's a tricky thing to say. I think that first or Sid is not a new term. It's not just a term that begins in the 18th century as, the term, which goes back at least until second temple literature and goes back to the Bible itself. God has described Yeah. P yeah, P Pist. Is usually how it's translated. But more I think connected to the etymology of someone who does kindness. The says who is someone who does kindness towards the one who acquires them to, to God. So I, and I think the goes through, we, they're city ashkenaz and the city citizen term, for, I don't know why someone being hosted in the 13th century, in the 16th century and the second century is any more legitimate than someone being in Neo in the 21st century. The question is, what do we mean when we say that term? I'm just here, I'm trying to def I'm defending all of my neo friends say I don't want no throw

7:06

under

Levi Brackman: 7:06

the bus, and I don't mean to, no, I don't mean to throw them under the bus. I'm just trying to talk about this kind of concept of you mentioned about the rambam, and I'm piggybacking off that in order to anchor oneself into some kind of authenticity, one in some ways is not totally honest about what that is, that one's anchoring oneself and how one is different from that. But

Zevi Slavin: 7:28

what is it? Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. What is it to Beed, right? Toed means to be connected to the Buddha, the dharma, the sang to the rabbi to, to, that's what it means to be. So if you have hiss, if you have a connection, relationship with a rabbi biologically alive or otherwise, and you have a relationship with Terra, Sid with the words, the living words of Hasidism, and you have a Hasidic practice and you're in relationship with fellow. I, I think here's a good case we made that one is, and I think that people coming from a progressive liberal non-orthodox, Jewish space. There's no reason why they can't become since I, I think that focuses to propose some sort of new elitism where we have the measuring sticks of who can and can be, would be very antithetical to the spirit of 18th century ba, which is very much about embracing this simple Jew, the unlettered Jew. Who in their active piety, he saw them as great cinema. He saw them, he saw that the simplicity of the simple Jew reflected more perfectly the simplicity of God than the leaded scholar who was stuck in their, on their own ego. So I think if some, I think we should be a bit more flexible with these categories

Levi Brackman: 8:40

without a doubt. I I the idea is a lovely idea. I'm just, Talking about in practice when one goes around the world of the people who, if you go to, you know in, into some of the we want call inner city of Jerusalem, or you go to or Monroe, you went to an enclave, Hasidic enclave, and you ask them, what is, or you ask some of these rabbis. Some of the Hasidic leaders of today, what it means to be a Hasid. Then, you wouldn't hear that type of thing necessarily. And just a dimension of the Buddha might get you thrown onto their offices.

Zevi Slavin: 9:18

I I think, and I know people like this, that live in very, let's say black and white. Inner city forms of hu if you present to them, Jew, real or hypothetical, who makes a pious effort to work on themselves to conduct what we would call Aveda, inner work and worship, they spend time. Reciting to hiem or they, and, they express their Judaism in an authentic and pious way. They're connecting to the terror, the basta they're trying to practice as best they can in the lives. They live ways. I think if you asked them or if you asked, I think they would say, yeah, sounds like a chaa to me. I don't love these, I don't love these these demarcation. I don't think you need to be living in Williamsburg, a bar park or ish arm to be, I think you could be living. And wherever you are and you can connect us citizen this and be host. It's interesting that

Levi Brackman: 10:06

on the one hand, on the one hand you would say that you don't have to be, on the other hand, you want to be, in other words. So there's, I feel, I don't

Zevi Slavin: 10:14

wanna be living in Mahar. I could, I'm very close there, but I choose to be living where I am here. No, what,

Levi Brackman: 10:18

what I mean is that what I mean to say is that and I think I understand this in from an emotional perspective, right? In other words, the idea to want to be considered part of the community of Hasidim, on the other hand, recognizing that. A lot of the mayor, let's use Mayor Sham as an example. And I think I've lost a lot of my audience right now discussing this, but I think that what happens is, and I think, but there's a broader point here, which I wanna make, which I think is important, that if people bear with me, right? And that is that on the one hand you want to be a, there's a detention. On the one hand there's a wonderful thing to be part of that. It's, there's not just a tradition, there's also a community and there's warmth and there's real love between people, et cetera, which exists there, which does one doesn't get outside of these faith communities, if you like. On the one hand, the other hand, when one takes the orthodoxies of those communities and one scrutinize them, It becomes challenging to put one's hand up and say, yes, I, I can actually fully be on board with every part of it. So the tension is, on the one hand, I can't be fully on board. If you went to Mayor Sharon and you spoke to those people, what does it mean to actually be a told iron host or you went, any, you spit in the blank, right? You would find that's gonna be really hard for me. I actually can't do that. On the other hand, I don't I like all these other things associated with it, right? So I'm gonna find a way and that is the way which. That wisdom of how to figure that tension out and live in that tension, I'm really interested in because I think I think that most thinking people and the people who listen to my podcast, I would think are thinking people they, in some way or other have that kind of tension in their life, right? There's something which is. They look around and they say, everyone's like this, and there's this, everyone, I don't care whether you are, Republican or Democrat, you name it the ism. And there's something, there's parts of it that the thinking person can't really fully buy into on the one hand. On the other hand, they don't want to be completely outside of the camp entirely because and then living in that tension without, with being intellectually honest about it, without saying, oh, actually my monies agrees with me.

Zevi Slavin: 12:33

I think that's where, the Neo is playing in, cuz Neo is saying we don't accept many of the, so societal and political stances and others that are taken. So there's a space to, to individuate and differentiate while remaining part of something broader and there's a space to create new communities. Within the rubric of those communities that, that do feel closer aligned. I think, it's always an interesting sort of concentric process and journey where we always we, we want to and need to be in community with others. As an evolutionary, past to not being in community yet. Being in community inevitably means Some sort of denial, repression or, absence of our individuality. You cannot be fully individualistic and fully. Communal those things stand in opposition. They there, there has to be a compromise and a give and take there. And I think that a lot of life is negotiating those, that exact equation of where can I, in which communities can I feel and be in a way, both part of the community and also allowed to be myself. And I think we changed through life and I think, Ma relationship is no different. When we enter into a marriage, we're doing something communal. We're doing something communal, both in a broader sense, and we're doing something with another person. There's something social that we're engaging in and we're doing that as changing people. And I think that's constantly a paradox, which we're negotiating and it's really universally true. It's really true for anyone. And it happens to be, it can come to the fore in. In more traditional societies where belonging to a community is very apparent and very necessary and very obvious in the way one dresses and eats and speaks. And we live in a very interesting moment in Jewish history where for really the first time in Jewish history, we have the possibility of being a modern Jew outside of community. And now those modern Jews who. Who have, for the first time in human history, the chance to be free human individuals without having to abandon their Judaism or become Christians or Muslims or whatnot. They're now looking for ways to re-engage freely with Jewish forms of community. I think this is a fascinating moment. That's what I see as happening in, in those spaces. And I see that whether it's someone who's trying to join the community that identifies with Maimonides or with the Han or with Isaac Luria or, with other faith traditions. I think there's something very profoundly human about that.

Levi Brackman: 14:54

What brings to mind is, fear and tramline. I dunno if you read the book where you have, which talks about the AAA or, the Kiki God, San Ki Yeah, Kiki, God. So the, this idea of being able to transcend, as the unique individual being able to transcend even, a relationship with God, but. And this is that man of faith, which is almost impossible to get to, because at some point you need all these other people and to stand outside of that is, is incredibly challenging and like you've mentioned, so on the one hand, but navigating that to, in today's world, is part of the challenge that we're talking about here, it's challenging. There's a, that there's a new community which is now looking like in, in that sense is be, is outside of community, but then coming back into community as these single individuals coming back together in some sense?

Zevi Slavin: 15:46

Yeah. I think it's a voluntary attempt to ReadUP community and community is in some sense always I. As we're saying is a relinquishing of our volunteerism. It's letting go of our capacity to of our agency in some sense, by definition. I think, listen, I think we've valorized this to quote another title, this Lonely Man of Faith. I don't love the sound of it. I'd love, I'd much rather be a non lonely man of faith I'd much rather be with no offense at all. Where you're just using these titles flippantly with Greatest of Respects. To, to, of course those who know who we're speaking about. Yeah. I'd rather, I'd much rather be a man of faith who's not alone. There's this great line which asks. What was the achievement? What was the accomplishment of Hasidism? What was the UF tool? What was, what did Sid do in the world? And which is funny cuz it's a acidic question asked internally, which mirrors the academic question of what is the innovation of Hasidism after hundreds of years of Kabbalah. And the answers that CDIs gives mirrors the academic answers in some interesting ways. And sodis answers in a somewhat tongue in cheek way that forks. The rabbi was lonely and the qid were lonely, which is a funny answer cause we think that it's citizenism, which gives us the Rabbi and Chaid. We know from contemporary academia that's not the case. So the answer actually the humor works academically, historically. So before SDIs, the rabbi was cha, the rabbi was lonely. The cha k were lonely. After the qid, the rabbi is no longer lonely and the cinnamon no longer lonely. And there's something about that the pla speaks about the journey of the soul through life as the flight of the alone to the alone, right? We speak about how in the mad we speak God in Abraham, that God is y God is the singular in his universe. And Abraham is singular. He's the ivory, he's the one which is ly, and God falls in love with this and what? And Judaism is a love relationship between two lonely people between God and Abraham. And the co and the Covenant which continues through their children with, tumultuous one. So I think that there's something about not being a lonely man of faith, but being a man of faith, being a Sid who's in relationship with other, who's in relationship with the rabbi and those are very profound relationships. There's, so they joke, which I think has said with some seriousness that the reason why King Solomon writes the song of songs about too, Lovers to young lovers. It's cuz he didn't have the metaphor of the Rabbi Hasid, which obviously is a greater love. So I think that these when we look at the mystical traditions, we think that they offer monasticism and solitude and isolation and contemplation. But what they really offer is deep relationship. Yeah, there's a relationship with one's teacher, with one's with one's master, with one's. In, in the east with one's, there's a emai, who's the disciple, and as sensei who's the leader. These are very profound relationships to have. To have mentors in this journey of life, to have peers in the journey of life. Yeah, and I think that what we're seeing today is people who either have fallen out of a more traditional form of what we would today call orthodoxy or what's referred to as orthodoxy, or people that are coming, as we're saying from unaffiliate, less affiliated places are looking. They're deeply in need of that deep human need of community, of relationship, of love.

Levi Brackman: 18:59

It's interesting because I think that what has happened when I look at it is like in, in some ways I think theism, which you were talking about, which started with the Basta, has come full cycle and needs to rebirth in some kind of ways. And it's a bit like what happens when you have the, and if you ever read a 1984 or animal farm, you find that if you read like Solomon Lyman, I dunno if you've ever read Solomon Lyman back what really went on in the house of the market, this was, it was much more you had it was, a bunch of guys getting together and having the master was somewhat of a peer and a master together, right? Where. When that becomes like an institution, then it, and then it takes on all the properties of the institution, it becomes a lot less attractive. But then to re at some point it will come full circle because you still need that. That human, as you mentioned, I think you're absolutely right. Humans still need that and want that. And there are people who are by very nature, just head and shoulders above the rest of us. You find that you, if you come across someone who's like Maimonides, you should hang out with that guy and not let go. You don't learn as much as you can from him and so I, and, but there are plenty of my, these wannabes who are nothing like my, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that, To be able to recreate that, but by why does one have to do it? I'm, and I'm trying to figure out why one has to do it in a way in which one still has to, I guess you're saying to have some kind of authenticity. You still have to anchor it into that, which came from before while being able to change it. And I think in some ways Judaism has done this very well throughout the centuries. We've always been able to. Change things and talk new and Kala exists because it was able to, like you seekers of unity, you were able to find from the outside, right? All these other things, which you're like, Hey, this is also my tradition. Of course, right? Because a lot of that influenced our tradition and found its way into our tradition. My Mons says that he's gonna quote people and not mention who he quotes it from, because people, they're just not gonna get accept it cuz they're gonna say how could he quote that person? But Judaism is replete with all this outside. Yeah. Yeah. I think this in some way, burdened by it. Yeah.

Zevi Slavin: 21:14

I think this is an inevitable part of religion and religiosity. Yeah. There's there's a great insight which I learned in dialogue with some local Bahai. Scholars where they told me that there's a con, there's a formulation or articulation within the bajai faith of the seasons of faith itself. That a religion bahais a relatively young religion, that a religion goes through the seasons as nature does, through, through its summer. So through its spring where it's beginning to blossom, it's summer when it's in full and autumn, it begins to die down the winter. Finally, it re it seems like it's dead until that cycle can go again. And it's a very, it's a very, I think, very mature. Self-awareness that religion itself goes through a lifecycle, the lifecycle of religion, and I think this is inevitable. Religiosity, if we think about the great prophets of the Bible, The men and women who were consumed by the spirit of God, they were they had what, literally the enthusiasm of the God, filled them with the Holy Spirit, the kodesh. And in that encounter of divinity, of reality, they came back and they were, sometimes they were considered murmuring. They were bumbling idiots. And they were called crazy maim. But sometimes they came and they spoke the truths that changed the face of history. They spoke the truths of the 10 commandments. They spoke the truths of being kindness to the marginalizing, the oppressed. This, these were not ideas which had any purchase before them. And but what happens in that process to take that enthusiasm, to take that, that, that wild. I would even say that wild Ian religious spirit and put it into a system of religion that can hold, that can become legal codes, that can guide civilizations. That to take the Napoleon sp the Napoleon spirit, it has to be, it has to be institutionalized, it has to be ritualized and institutionalizing it. Is both the way that it can be kept, but also the thing which is gonna kill it. And what happens is that leads to the winter of religion. And then you need to res springing. You need a spring. And that's why the prophets keep coming and they keep saying what you were taught back then. You guys are missing the point. The prophets, we read these prophets for god's sake. We read the Torah. Of Isaiah on yo Kipper where he says, I don't want your sacrifices. I don't even want your Shabbat, I want you to be kind to the widow, the, or often the stranger, the abused. And that message and it, for me, these are the mystics. We're reen encountering the spirit of fresh. And that's what the basta is. And it's known, it's, of course that's gonna happen again because the buss words. Which are words of fire, which he does not put into writing as many great mistakes do not cause they cannot, his students put them into writing, and that is the beginning of their perpetuation and the beginning of their death. And it's our responsibility to constantly reengage with the spirit and to bring those words back to life. That's a great line from ti. The Muslim scholar and author who says that the role of literature. One of the most read authors today, the role of literature and music and art and poetry, is to capture that ineffable. Spirit of religiosity of the mystical and put it, give it form and give it language so that it can not just be a fleeting experience, but it can last in words and in images, but then that has to be, we have to throw that out and do it again. Moses comes down the mountain and he shatters the 10 commandments. He shatters the first set of the, because he's, and according to the sages cause He's trying to tell us that these worlds are simply words of stone. It's the spirit of God that burns inside of them that matters. And that's the great revelation, the great challenge of religion. So it's no surprise that we need a new Basta. Yeah. And

Levi Brackman: 24:41

but how, then do you, and so the challenge is that it's absolute cla I have absolute clarity in that, that is needed. As a matter of fact, one of my big disappointments is being part of Habad, was I beg people, you gotta find, you can't, there needs to be a new leader here. You can't have. It, you need to have, find somehow within yourselves, the courage to appoint someone new because this continuing the way, this way just won't have, it's just not, at some point, you need an ability to, and I don't, you can, reform is the wrong word because then you are saying it's all wrong. It's all bad. Part of the thesis of this podcast is that there are truths and part of the idea is that somehow Judaism has always managed to have that. Think about I talking about, right? We learned the whole in dmi we learned about the wayward wife and it's it's unbelievable what you know, the laws regarding of this wayward wife. You parade around Jerusalem, you rip off her clothes and you, and then she dies. It's terrible death. And at the end of it, there's this kind of one line which says basically, it's no longer relevant today. So there's this kind of, we're gonna talk about it, we're gonna explain it, we're gonna expound upon it. But it's no longer relevant. In other words, we can have profound respect for the tradition that we come from and still say at the same time that's no longer relevant. And I think that I see a lot of struggle with that kind of concept in the modern day, not just in Judaism, but in, not just in religion, but also I see it also in, for example, the Constitution of the United States. There's we struggle with this ability to be able to respectfully say, that's in the past and it got us to where we are today, and therefore we respect it. The tearing down of the statues, for example. Why do you need to tear them down? In other words, there's a way, there's a way of saying this is no longer relevant, but it's still, and I think a lot of people struggle with that. And how do you, how does more, and in a world where everyone's struggling with that, how do you get beyond that?

Zevi Slavin: 26:41

Yeah. So I agree with most of what you said there, Leah, besides for one thing, which is that I don't think that the solution is to create, is to elect a new Reba, a new leader. I think that the, I think that I think that the, I think that the Reba the leader of the Chabad. Mystical Messianic movement leaving no successor is very intentional. I think it's painfully obvious that, and I'll just say what the thesis here is and for those that want to ask me about it, I can explain more in person why I think this is painfully obvious. I think that the paradigm of leadership that had existed from Moses till the era was not a paradigm of leadership that was. Capable or possible of moving us from our contemporary paradigm of exile to a state of redemption from Galo Toula. And I think that what had to what must happen is a absolute decentralization. A deconstruction of leadership, an idea, which goes back to the prophet Jeremiah, where, which says that no man shall teach their brother, know the Lord for they shall all know me in those days. In those days, which refers to the es, the eschatological the end of days. I think the point here is that in order for, in order to move out of our current paradigm, which we solely need to into a messianic and redemptive paradigm. We need to each be that leader. We need to each be that rabbi. And I think that's what the Rabbi wanted from us. And I think there's many instances where this is repeated throughout the Rabbi's teachings and earlier. And I think that is, that's scar electing a new rabbi is

Levi Brackman: 28:26

is we've gone down a little bit of a rabbit hole. Because that, that I mean it's interesting what I didn't really mean, like I. Because I don't see the Rabbi as being anywhere close to Moses or in that tradition. I assume him just being a rabbi of his community and then a community without a rabbi or without a leader is a problem. I. What you're saying basically is that they should elect one. They just, we should be smaller within

Zevi Slavin: 28:52

smaller communities. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that no one should be elected. I think we have all been elected to be our own leaders, to stand up in our own lives and to be lights to those around us. Jonathan Sacks famously in his eulogy of Bob Travis, said that the Reba was a unique leader because he didn't create followers, he created leaders. And I think that Theba. I think that we disappoint the Rabbi when we point the finger to others and say, Hey, why didn't you lead us? The rabbi said, I asked you. I chose you to lead me. There's a famous line at the Rabbi.

Levi Brackman: 29:20

Yes. It's kind of semantics, right? Because in other words, humans, as humans, if you find that person who is, who can be a mentor to you, and as you mentioned, someone who you know, can be your master and teach you that which you don't know and guide you. In ways that you haven't yet experienced because you're either young or you haven't developed that far. I can take you to their next level One needs that thing in one's life, right? If people who don't have that and don't have that kind of relationship with others could end up, and an inauthentic person who's leading is a problem. But to actually find someone who's authentic like that, and it's very hard to find that. Then that is incredibly valuable and no one would say that one shouldn't have that in one's life.

Zevi Slavin: 30:00

I'm not, God forbid, I'm not protesting against the role of having teachers and mentors in my life, right? I think that we need to just rethink and deconstruct those binaries, I think, and I think that already begins in the now, which says that I learned much from my teachers. More for my peers, but most of all for my students, which makes my students, my teachers, which begins as the beginning of the statement. It's like this zen rabbinic coan in some sense. Yeah. And I think that we live in a day and age where that is becoming evident within the tradition. One is taught to have a ash, to have someone who can positively influence them in a direction towards God. Yeah. Based also on the same set of mission of set upon yourself, someone to teach you, but it's very clear within the acidic world practice that. The relationship between SBI MacCall can be reversed. So A can be the SBI B, but B can also be the SBI A, but that's what,

Levi Brackman: 30:51

that's what existed back in the day at almost at the time of the market. In other words, and that's what we're saying. Then it institutionalized, it became this thing where this.

Zevi Slavin: 30:59

So what I'm saying is right. So what I'm saying is that we shouldn't abandon the need for teachers, but we should realize that we are all teachers and we should realize that we are all authentic humans and we all have something which is incredibly authentic and unique, which only we can give. And when we stand in our own, it's terrifying to admit that to ourselves. But when we stand in our own power and our own divine voice and share that and encourage those around us to share as well, we can move away from a paradigm where we. Relinquish our spiritual responsibility to the leader, the master, the teacher, the guide, the figure, the prophet, and we can take that responsibility in our own hands. And from that place of responsibility, we can respond to the call of the hour and the call of the hour. Is to no longer follow, but to lead. And in that we're of course following because there's, there's no king without a flock. There's no shepherd.

Levi Brackman: 31:50

How's that flock? Everyone's, how does that and no followers

Zevi Slavin: 31:54

because, and because we all become simultaneously followers and leaders, we, we enter into a reciprocal relationship. With our, with those around us where we can both open ourselves up to wisdom. The mission says the mission, which is a favorite of mine, says who is wise One who learns from every person. Yeah. So we reciprocally open ourselves up to be students of everyone, which is one of the great messages of the zohar that every wagon driver and we would say into contemporary jogger, bus driver and taxi driver and street cleaner. Is a potential fund of infinite divine wisdom if only you have the eyes and ears to hear it and see it. And at the same time, we can step into roles of sharing that which we have, which may be even scarier to open not just our eyes and ears, but open our mouths and share the truths that burn inside of us. And we all have them. And I think that it's a deconstruction of that binary opposition. Cause any istic opposition is almost inherently, I. A form of exilic gallo tea, a form of bondage in our thinking. And we have to move beyond those boundaries, beyond those binaries and dichotomies here too.

Levi Brackman: 33:04

Interesting. No, I mean there's this, there's no doubt that a new paradigm of that type of the old paradigm never have worked. I completely see that.

Zevi Slavin: 33:15

And you can't use all tools to build new productions, right? We need a, we need new tools. And look what's happening today. Look at the people. The, in order to have taught philosophy in the past or to taught any wisdom, you needed degrees, you needed certifications, you needed the access to them. You needed to be in the right class to, to have that, you needed the funds. It means today we live in a world where you, and I know as we're doing right now, that the gods are asleep at the doors and anyone. Is allowed to share, anyone's allowed to teach, anyone's allowed to show up and put up their hand. That's the reality. Yeah.

Levi Brackman: 33:44

And I we're doing it and I don't think that they should have ever rebuilt that hierarchy. In other words, that wasn't what I thought. But if that person exists. And I think in every generation there are people who are just head and shoulders by the others. And if you're not open to that existing, you won't be able to see it. In other words, if you think that there's, that, that type of in that only exists once people who are, really head and shoulders that my mono type figure. That Moses is like person. If you think that person can't exist, today's day and age, you will be blind to them. When they show up, you won't know that they are there because you think they don't exist. And my fundamental belief is that those people do exist. And when they show up, you need to be ready to, to keep quiet. Listen,

Zevi Slavin: 34:27

What was what? Let's think about that for a sec for a second. Who was Moses? What was Moses? Moses, I. Was not. He was not particularly gifted. In, in many areas we don't know that he was a man of particular stature or standing. He was certainly not a talented orator and speaker. He says himself that he's a else sai, he's a person who whose lips eloquent are blemished. And he's in eloquent. He asked, God, please don't send me I'm not a prophet of, I can't be a mouthpiece for you. He's a foreigner. He's a person who grows up in some ways an orphan. He's an immigrant for most of his adult life. Moses is not someone who would be welcome in most of today's polite society. The reason why God chooses Moses is for pretty much. Two things as far as I can tell. One of them is that Moses has a fierce sense of justice, and when he sees a slave being beaten, he doesn't just stand back and let it happen. He doesn't go and talk about why it's wrong. He goes and he does something about it, and he begins his act. He begins his career as a liberator. As a, as someone who can save people by doing it when he sees injustice he's a person with a fierce moral compass and with the courage to stand up and take action when he sees injustice, firstly. Secondly, he's a person with a profound sense of love and mercy and compassion, even on astray sheep, which is the final act which makes God elect him reluctantly. On Moses behalf for his mission, which changes the face of human history. Moses sees a stray sheep running away from the flock, and he goes, and he runs after her to carry it back and to bring it back to its mother. It's this combination of a fierce, brave, moral compass with the softness to to cradle the sheep in one's bosom, to bring it back to their mother. It's that combination of heart and strength of soul, which makes Moses who he is now. We don't, if we're looking for the professors, if we're looking for the R readers, if we're looking for the wealthy, if we're looking for the people endowed with charisma, where we may be looking in the wrong place. And I think that the, I think that the moseses that we're looking for may pass us every day a thousand times in the street or even in the mirror, right? No, without

Levi Brackman: 36:48

a doubt. That's what made Moses originally in. Moses, but when the Jews came across him, in other words, when he started to become a leader, this was a person who then was able to channel the divine. In a way in which and obviously I never met Moses, but we're still talking about him today, right? And the TAUs mosha, the teachings of Moses, have made. The greatest profound impact on humanity, probably more than anybody else. And so the point is there's some, there's something going on there. Of course, the kindness needs to be there, but what I'm saying is there's something else going on there, which is if you think that doesn't exist today, you might not find it. That's what I'm saying. In other words, like if you don't have the ability to realize that I am not the leader, I might have, I do have something to give. We all have something to offer other people.

Zevi Slavin: 37:36

Humility. Humility is the other he has, by moses. Moses is, the Bible says he's enough mic that he's the most humble. Which is extraordinary thing to say, but I, that,

Levi Brackman: 37:46

that the fear I have is if you all want to be teachers, and then we say that paradigm of leadership is no longer here. What I think is that we might then close ourselves off from that possibility of those people. Cause I think they do exist. They have to exist.

Zevi Slavin: 38:04

I, I wanna reverse what you're saying here a little, if you'll let me. Sure. I think that those people exist all around us, and I think that when we create. Some sort of elitist criteria of who can or can't be a teacher or a leader or a redeemer. We preclude the possibility of those people ever entering our lives and our realities. And I think that when we allow ourselves to envision a world where everyone has the capacity to speak the word of God and to have that fire burn through them, then we open up a space where. Where those teachers will arise. It's not by raising the criteria that we will come to or by having some sort of bar of entry that will come to produce the teacher worthy of name. But it's precisely by empowering who we would ordinary consider ordinary people to do the extraordinary. It's Moses himself. Who tells the two brothers Elda de Medad, when they begin to prophesy in a camp after the raffle to select the elders of Israel, that Moses, they, Joshua, the Moses the hank the Sideman. And Moses comes and tells him that they're prophesizing and Moses needs to do something about it. Cuz they're gonna challenge his authority. Moses, the reigning prophet and Moses says, God forbid that I should silence them. And he says the most beautiful words of true humble leadership, which is me. If only hava. We would say in modern pollens. In modern juddaism hava, if only all of the people would prophesize cuz the spirit of God rest in all of them. And that is, that's the spirit, I think. And I, and that's what Moses teaches us. The spirit of God rests inside of all of us. It's the Torah of Moses, which teaches us that when God dwells in the people, he dwells in, in each one of them, to deny the indwelling, the divine in every human. Because we have some sort of expectation of who might be a leader, might be a teacher. Is, I think is antithetical to, to what Moses came to teach us, to what Moses came to encourage during his lifetime. No,

Levi Brackman: 40:05

no doubt. I'm not denying it at all. It's just, it's a matter of degree is what I'm saying. Without a doubt, we should all see ourselves as teachers. I'm combined that I do bind into that 100%. But I also recognize that. When I was in university and in England, actually getting a first is pretty hard. And in America, everyone gets as right. In England, it's actually relatively hard. And the professor used to say, you have to leave room for the Einsteins, everyone can be great students, but there's only one. There's only one Einstein. And I don't mean, I don't wanna get into whether theory of relativity and whether, but I, but the point I'm trying to make is there, there are people whom, what you call right there, the head and shoulders above everybody else, and there has to be room for those people, and they don't show up every day. Those people, 3, 4, 5 stand deviations from the mean.

Zevi Slavin: 40:54

You know what the irony is though? The irony is that Einstein, as was such a poor student in school. I know. That's why I didn't, it was a bad example that they would've told him, you're no Einstein, right? Throughout his matriculation and education, he would've been held to, to, to prior standards of what it meant to be in Einstein. We would've had no Einstein. It's only cause somehow we got a lucky break where he was allowed to express his own unique creative genius. Yeah. That, that we're able to be even talking about him. I think. I think that it's precisely. The opening up of these capacities that will allow these people to emerge and I think so.

Levi Brackman: 41:29

You do admit that though, there is such a thing then because you what my, there is such a thing. You said the paradigm with leadership has changed. Whereas what I'm trying to say, Pains to try and express is that there has to be people five stand deviations. That by definition being five stand deviations from the mean you're talking about. It's incredibly rare. It can't be everybody. I'll tell you what, and cause you know there's a bell curve, right? The way it works statistically, there's a bell curve and we're all within three stand, two, two stand deviations. Six 7% mean two stand deviations of the mean, et cetera, et cetera. And we get way into the tails, right? Those people are becoming incredibly rare incredibly rare, but I

Zevi Slavin: 42:07

statistically they exist. Yeah. Yeah. So I think on the muddle that you're presenting, what you're saying is correct, but I disagree with the muddle, I disagree with the criteria by which we're establishing the X and y axi of these bell curves and deviations. I approach reality from the point of view of the metaphysics, of classicism, of mysticism as I was taught it, and as I've come to appreciate it as an adult as well. In that paradigm, as well as I do that, that we are in possession of a part of the infinite. And you know as well that part of the infinite by the. By the rules of mathematics is infinite itself, as says that, that when you take a hold of that, which is essential, you're taking a hold of the entire essence. And I think that we have to think about new paradigms of what does it mean to have a leader? Does it mean, and this is very problematic of where are we setting our targets and expectations. If we're looking for someone who is going to be the most brilliant entrepreneur and he's gonna know how to. Cut costs the most and how to make sure that workers get paid the least and how to take our work overseas and pollute the planet in the process where and I have to say that is part of the modern goal of education and the criteria of success in today's planet. And I think we need to radically rethink what it means to be a leader and a teacher to be stand, to be deep, degrees of deviation off the norm. I think we need people that are off the charts when it comes to their empathy and their presence and their capacity to listen and their capacity to show up and hold space and their they're to be lovers I think we need new forms of genius. This is a religious genius. And I think and I truly believe that every human created in the image of God as Genesis one tells us, has the capacity to do that if only we believe that they can and believe that we can.

Levi Brackman: 44:03

No, the parts in which we agree are much, are, I think are much, much more than parts. We don't agree. But I think when you have someone who's. The rarest thing is having people who are three or four, five sand deviations from the mean in multiples of these different arenas, right in love. Inability to have compassion in the ability to have intel intelligence, inability to have to channel the divine. We all have it, if, to use acidic phrase, we have Tim, right? Uhhuh and so someone who has who's able to manifest all of that to, to its greatest degree. By definition, that's going to be incredibly rare. And all I'm trying to say is like my fear, I love what you're saying because it's so empowering and I think, one of the things I tell people that, the, when you talking about the and especially has this kind of the, which basically means that you, the ability for the humans to have an impact and a change effect, a change in the divine. You have this idea that the Bar mitzvah boy, who's turns 13 he says this discourse, which everyone, no one really understands what it is except for you're basically telling him, which is a completely new concept. I don't find, I think this is kabad does this, and I always tell, ask people, do you know really what this kid's saying? Because he's actually, his fi at the highest level. Oh, it's just from Midrash. No. This is a complete novel reading of a midrash, to say that this little kid basically has power over God it's unbelievably empowering, right? And you tell a 13 year old that it's it's mind blowing. And so in other words, your message and this message is unbelievably empowering and I love it. The only thing I'm trying to say here is that it might have a downside to it which means that, you're basically saying that if everyone's the leader, then no one's the leader. In other words, if everyone can be forced down, deviation from the mean, and you just move the bell curve down the line, right? In other words, and that, that's my fear here. And you cut yourself off to that ability to find that. I don't even know if it's a person, cuz I don't know if maybe it's the next AI who knows what it is, right? That thing which, which can bring the next quantum leap and to us as humans in, in our lives. And so everything I love about you're saying empowering nature of what you're saying is incredible. And I find it personally inspiring and I'm grateful for you for sharing it.

Zevi Slavin: 46:24

I think the next, I think the next quantum leap. And we may not agree here, which is beautiful as well. I'd be very glad to dis to disagree with brothers and friends and lovers. I think that the next great leap forward comes in recognizing this truth, which is that you, lavy are the most rare thing to have ever existed and the proof is in the pudding cause God. The nature, the universe, cosmos, whatever you wanna call it, chose to manifest you as you in your particularity and or I'm using volitional language here. People will have to take that creatively if it's uncomfortable with them. But the fact that you are means that. That, that you must be, and that you must fully step into that which you are and into the uniqueness, which you are. Moses has been a central figure in this conversation, so I'll make reference to him one more time, which is that when we think about the prophecy of Moses, which myON is and other central figure in the conversation, Cole's, based on what we have in the sages and in the Bible, the greatest of all prophets, the greatest prophecy and he. Goes to great lengths to explain why his prophecy is categorically other than every other gradation of prophecy. And we typically understand that to mean that Moses is the greatest prophet because he was so humble as we're saying he's the most humble of people and he was so able to fully vacate himself that God speaks, literally says the tongue went through his lips that he could say the words. I'm the Lord God who took you out of Egypt. I will give rain in its proper time because there's no more eye, there's no more ego. There's just pure godliness shining through this empty vessel or container, which, which was once Moses and the acidic teachers say no, on the contrary, That Moses was so Moses, he was so himself. He's he was so capable of embracing the particularity through which God manifested as Moses, that when Moses spoke, it was Moses speaking fully himself, therefore, fully divine, fully God, fully human to use. Some neighboring theological terminology. It's not an absence of Moses that allows God to speak, but it's a full presence of Moses. And I think when you lavy and when whoever's listening can find that in themselves where their full beauty and their full divinity can come through, we're all. We're all infinite standards of deviation away from mean and that I'm not gonna back down from this cause I really

Levi Brackman: 48:49

No, it's just the statistical impossibility, but that's fine. It's very empowering.

Zevi Slavin: 48:56

We're at a certain point. We have to move beyond statistics as well.

Levi Brackman: 49:00

Yeah. And so look, this has been a wonderful opportunity for me to have this conversation. I really appreciate your time. Appreciate what you're doing out there, and I hope our listeners. Also are able to appreciate, I know this is a lockstep change from what conversations I've had in the past. But I think people will appreciate it. I think, this podcast, I call it truths. There are truths here, not just one truth. Truth is not found in the Bible at all except for as equated with Ed. So the idea of the truth, empirical truth is not something which I believe. That religion at all, especially ancient religion has ever traded in. It's not a concept which I think religion talks about. It's a very modern idea that this has the truth. Which is one the, but there are loads of truths within, actually within the Torah itself. The Torah is a book of truths rather than the truth. And that's why I like to that's why I've called this podcast Truths. But I think within what we both said, there are truths there. Truth is in the fact that people should feel very empowered, and I have feeling very empowered by this conversation. Find the divinity from within us and allow that to emerge forth, I think is a wonderful idea. Thank you for sharing that. On the other hand, I would say leave room, if it's Moses on my monies and he shows up just. Lavy, but I'm very grateful for your time

Zevi Slavin: 50:19

and thank you. It's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure being here with you and conversing and disagreeing. It's been very pleasurable and I'm very grateful for making the time and for to be able to encounter. And I hope you get to sit down and post some time in the near future. God willing. Yeah. Next time you're in here even.

Levi Brackman: 50:33

Alright. Looking forward to it. Thank you very much.

Zevi Slavin: 50:36

My greatest pleasure.