Mapping a Path Through Public Health with Dr. Erik Nelson

If theres one thing you should know about Dr. Eik Nelson, it’s that he likes to get uncomfortable (all in the name of science). This has lead him to pursue research in areas that are a bit on the messier side. Listen as he and Dr. Cougar Hall discuss the social determinants of disease, maps and spirituality.

Bio:

Dr. Nelson's research combines epidemiologic, statistical, and geospatial modeling techniques to identify where and why health disparities occur so that appropriate interventions can be developed to help overcome them. His research utilizes novel online recruitment techniques and Bayesian spatio-temporal models. His main areas of interest include health disparities, sexual health, screening, cancer prevention, environmental lead exposure, and social epidemiology. He has published over 50 peer-reviewed journal articles on a variety of public health issues such as human papillomavirus (HPV), HPV vaccination, lead exposure, violence, substance abuse, air pollution, and cognitive functioning.

Recorded, Edited & Produced by Averee Bates, Christy Gonzalez, Harper Xinyu Zhang, Madison McArthur, Kailey Hopkins, and Tanya Gale

Transcript

Erik Nelson

Cougar: [00:00:00] Dr. Eric Nelson. Thanks for joining us on the Y Health Podcast, my friend. 

Erik: Happy to be with you. 

Cougar: How are you doing?

Erik: Doing well.

Cougar: Now we have offices next door, but I guess we have to invite you on the podcast. We can actually get together and talk, huh? 

Right? 

Isn't that crazy? 

Erik: The world of academics. 

Cougar: Oh my heavens.

Will you just take a minute, introduce yourself, your background, your education, a little about. Your family where you've worked before, how did we get you here, is what I really want to know, right? 

Erik: Yeah. I'll, I'll make a long story short. I'm not supposed to be an academic

you know, my father's a physician. Grandfather was a physician. He always wanted one of his children. I'm one of eight to, uh, pick up the torch. And I was on that path until dad got involved in other things and was gonna retire, not have a practice, and I wouldn't work with him. So I said, now what? About that same time I was really interested in a little blonde girl and, um, she was going to school at BYU or so she told me in of high school and she came down south and, I asked her where by u was being naive and from Salt Lake and I followed her [00:01:00] down here and.

Uh, yeah, that's the rest is history with her. You know? Um, end up marrying that wonderful woman. Along the way, I did my undergraduate degree here at BYU in what was then I think called public health education. Now it's our health promotion degree. While I was in school, I made my way through by working at BMW in Pleasant Grove and in Murray at the time before the Pleasant Grove store was opened.

And I would. Get up early with my wife. She'd drive me into work, you know, 4, 4 30 in the morning it seemed, and then drop me off to work. I'd work all day, borrow a car from the shop, come down and go to class, go back to work till late. And that was life. I was gonna be a mechanic and tell Brad Nier, who's, uh, one of our former fa former faculty here and uh, now in one of the big offices up north on campus, he pulled me aside and said, you're good at this.

And kind of edged me along. And then I did a master's degree, subsequently at, um, university of Minnesota Twin Cities. And then while I was there, I again had a great mentor. I said, you're good at this, Eric. You shouldn't just give up. And so [00:02:00] I. I stuck with it and, did a PhD there as well. You know, in that, in that time I was really interested in the human papilloma virus or hpv, and, did my dissertation work on that.

Got interested in mapmaking, met Mario Shootman through some. Strange Pathways ended up in St. Louis University for a postdoc. Keep going with the history here. Yeah, I did, uh, two years of a postdoc in biostatistics and epidemiology. Really spatial epidemiology at St. Louis University with Mario. And then from there I took a, my first tenure track job at Indiana University in Bloomington and the School of Public Health.

Loved it there. Had a great community, great people, great minds that surrounded me, loved the campus love. the students I was teaching. And then, yeah, this job at BYU came up and it was kind of a outta left field, but felt right. And if I'm being honest, I applied for it and then forgot until Carl called me and said, Hey, do you want an interview?

And I [00:03:00] interviewed and, and that's when the fire started burning and it was probably time to change. And now I'm here. It's been two years. News faculty in the department and. And still trying to figure out what I'm doing here. 

Yeah. Well, we're 

Cougar: so glad to have you.

So what was the conversation like with your wife when you're like, uh, there's a job in Provo?

They've offered it to me. Did you convince her or was she already packing the car? 

Erik: No, I think it was definitely, um, some deep thought and meditation, right. And going through our, our decision making process where we both knew it was right. But it was a hard decision to still accept. Yeah. And even counseling with the kids.

Are we gonna come here and do this? It was right in the height of the pandemic. So, you know, having done almost a year in my closet, my bedroom closet teaching online and trying to keep the kids out of my closet, anything sounded better than that universe. And so I think that probably played into some of our decision making, but also, uh, we definitely felt, um, how would I say it?

God's hand. Yeah. Yeah. [00:04:00] 

Cougar: Really cool. I think almost everyone we have, you know, all the faculty that we have on the podcast. Everyone has a story for how they got here, and they have felt that there's been some divine intervention. I know I have felt that way as well. So it's a special place. It's uh, it's different though.

It takes a little bit of time adjusting and getting used to it. Do you agree? 

Erik: Absolutely. You know, I, I, so growing up in Salt Lake, I'm, I was a diehard university Utah fan. Still am. Um, I love the University of Utah, and we could talk about that if you want and why. Um, so coming here to BYU and undergrad was a weird thing.

And also having, You know, a significant other down here. During that time, I didn't do the BYU experience, so I didn't get involved in a lot of the, the quirky things that are made fun of and rightfully so. Mm-hmm. And then coming back as faculty, now I'm seeing it almost for the first time and reliving it as if I were 18, and it's, it's been interesting.

Cougar: That's awesome. 

Well, I'm a U grad, so if you can imagine I got, I've got. Two degrees from the U and my name is Cougar, so, uh, they had all sorts of fun with me. It goes, it goes both ways, [00:05:00] doesn't it? Back and forth. Yes, absolutely. Mostly friendly and collegial for sure. So, uh, you mentioned HPV V and you, you, you came to the university as a prolific researcher?

Uh, from my perspective, for sure. It's a little intimidating actually when people are as productive as you both with, um, receiving grant funding, but also with producing, you know, Really solid peer reviewed papers. Tell us, uh, maybe we can take the first 10 minutes or so and talk about some of your research.

Do you wanna start with HPV and Yeah, sure. And I know, I know more recently you've been working, uh, with lead exposure and you've got some, some really personal insights to, pulmonary hypertension that I think we should talk about as well and Sure. I'm just gonna give you the green light, Eric. Just go for it, 

my friend.

Erik: That's a dangerous thing to do. Yeah. Yeah, so we can start kind of the, I guess the history and trajectory and how the pathway where I've, where I've come from. So when I was a master's student, I really got involved in the idea of I can make maps. And I was doing a lot of statistical training and thinking, well, this is really cool.

There's gotta be some stats behind the [00:06:00] maps. And sure enough, they had experts there who were showing me, yeah, there's this thing called spatial statistics and you can do cool things. And like any, um, rookie, I thought I can do this. And so I started trying to make some maps and realizing it was a lot harder and got in the deep dive and I said, well, I gotta do something simple.

What if I just mapped like, you know, pap smear rates across the state of Minnesota? And then that caught the eye of a professor said, well, what if you did HPV vaccine? Cool. And we said, okay. So we started kind of putting these things and juxtaposing them and saying, well, there's some areas where. Vaccine, uh, uptake and pap smear rates kind of go hand in hand.

They're both lower. They're both high. I wonder why that might be and that really pushed me into wanting to do PhD studies and thinking, yeah, I, I wanna look into this more. It's interesting and I think I've always gravitated towards the problems in our society that, um, intersect with health, but are about much more than health.

So the messy topics like hpv, why it's interesting [00:07:00] to me is it involves everything. You get people really uncomfortable quickly, which if people who know me, they know, I like to say things just to make you uncomfortable and, um, that's good. So you talk about sex, you talk about relationships, you talk about communities that might be very different from your beliefs, right?

So gay and bisexual and transgender, men and women and so forth. And then you bring in religiosity. Because now you've got religious beliefs that are centered around people's behavior and what, why they do what they do and why they don't do certain things. You, you put that also with, you know, racial differences and tendencies and history and all of that comes together in this mess.

And those seem to be the problems I go after because I think there's so much to explore and so much to learn from others. So in that realm of hpv, um, I was lucky again, to be paired with this amazing researcher and, and an even better person than researcher. Uh, Dr. Sini. Cool Singham. It took me like three years to learn how to say she's [00:08:00] last name, so I'm so glad I got it.

Um, Sini is an all-star in her own right. She, she's one who helps write the national guidelines for the, uh, the taskforce service and, and helps decide when women should get pap smears, when we should do HPV screening, and all of those good things that are important and. Kind of piggybacking on her work, I thought, again, how can I learn more about HPV uptake and what can we do about this?

And at the time, uh, it was a new idea that maybe women could self sample, meaning they could use a a Q-tip and insert into their, into their body and check for human papillomavirus infection and run a test at home and not have to go through the, maybe the shame or disgrace or whatever other barrier might be between her and her physician.

, to see if she's infected and then do something about it. Mm-hmm. Get some treatment to help her. Very cool. And so this was a novel idea that was out there. Others had done it. We weren't the first, but we said we can do this. So I used this map making technology. I [00:09:00] used Facebook of all things, to recruit men and women to see if they'd had the vaccine across, uh, the Twin Cities area.

And then that turned in, well, let's find a subset of these women and see if they'd be willing to try the sampling method. We built the sampling kits. We built the, the protocol for, how would you test this at home and how make sure it all gets mailed and all that stuff. And then found out, hey, this is a really cool way to access, especially impoverished men and women who need this testing.

And, you know, that, that was the, essentially my dissertation. Um, and then after that I, I got really more interested in kind of the international aspect of that, of how could we then take this technology and do things in the other parts of the world. And, and that's still to be explored and to figure out when I have those answers.

So that's where my HPV line of work has gone. As far as the lead exposure stuff, this started as a postdoc. Again, it was one of those things that kind of got thrown into my face. I was across the hall from a, a brilliant man who had all of these, these data [00:10:00] points about lead exposure across, the St. Louis area. And he said, I have no idea what to do with them. And I said, Hey, I'm, I'm a postdoc. I got lots of time. Let's figure this out. Let's, and so he, I, I was thinking, you know, a big data set, a couple hundred observations, and he dropped something like 95,000 observations Wow. Of lead testing across this, this city that I'm new to and I don't know and understand and.

You know, learned a ton of skills along the way. Met a lot of cool people, um, including, council members and people in the community, other researchers, great minds, and, and started looking into how does lead, um, vary across geography and why does it vary across geography? And that may seem intuitive to some people, right?

You've got some plants and industries that, you know, put that out into the atmosphere and into the soil. , you've got old brown fields or places where, you know, there's nuclear sites or whatever they were that were there and contaminating, and then they've been abandoned. And [00:11:00] that's also usually the lowest, economic area.

It's where poor people tend to gravitate or maybe are forced to gravitate towards, and they end up being in these lead field environments. So with that work, with, with lead exposure, it started out as a cool data analysis project and then, I quickly saw how much more it was than just a data problem. It was, this is a people problem.

Yeah. And again, it crossed those messy lines of oh, race and religion and politics and love and relationships and kids eating dirt and you know, babies and trans placental transmission and all sorts of stuff. That was just eye-opening to me. and so I got involved in that and, you know, we did some cool projects, essentially mapping.

Where lead occurred in, across St. Louis. And we juxtapose that and, with various outcomes, some more proximal to, to kids being kids and some more distal and saying, we don't have the correct data to answer these questions, but let's just see [00:12:00] hypothetically if there's a relationship between a kid who's lead exposed and maybe some of their deviant behaviors that we know are associated with lead exposure, like, Pregnancy, like, sexually transmitted infections or like delinquency, psychopathy, some of the things that are known.

And so we did some of that work and have published some of that. And it's been really rewarding cuz of, again, the people I've met along the way and the life lessons, that work transitioned when I went to Indiana, did some more work there. It's kind of in a holding pattern as we figure out where we're going next, but I've been working with the, the NAACP.

 Doing some wonderful things, meeting incredible people who, who really understand the, the problem and who are in it for the right reasons. To help kids get a leg up and not have to drink Yeah. Water in, in their school pipes that is lead contaminated and trying to help those who already have been lead poisoned to get the help that they deserve in school, to be pulled aside and get speech therapy and to get cognitive and neurocognitive therapy [00:13:00] and just, just to be loved.

Yeah. And not left behind. So that's really where that work's, taken me. 

Cougar: So this is really cool. You, you're talking about the messiness of public health on both of these projects, HPV and lead, and, and you're talking, you know, it's, it's interesting if I, let me backtrack a little bit.

It's really cool. You're talking about the messiness of public health and we talk about the social determinants of health. And maybe for our listeners, I think the average, average individual is. Most of the time focused on individual determinants of health, how much sleep I get, if I'm prioritizing, you know, nutrition and physical activity.

If I'm managing my stress, if I'm, if I'm making sure I'm, I'm fostering relationships that will provide social support and allow me to, you know, provide social support to others. All these individual determinants of health, which, which are very important. And yet you get into the messiness of public health.

Now we're talking about the social determinants. These are socioeconomic or financial factors, access to finance. We're talking about [00:14:00] neighborhoods, we're talking about housing, right? We're talking about education. We're talking about nutrition, access to healthcare. And as you're talking, I'm thinking, man, the social determinants are coming to life here because you can see it's not a simple linear, oh, well, you just need to do A, B, and C and move on.

Right. If, if the problems that we're dealing with in public health were that easy, we would've moved on. But we, we have these, they j they just fester because of these various social determinants of health. And, and that's why we see massive disparities, uh, across sometimes gender lines, uh, almost always across race and eth ethnic lines.

Right. And so it's, it's so complex. I applaud you for just jumping into the arena and, uh, just. Putting on your boots and your gloves and saying, let's, I don't have the answers. Well, let's, let's work and let's collaborate. I, I've heard you three or four times collaborate with great people. And learn from them and be humble.

And so I just, I think [00:15:00] that's, that's the picture of an academic for me. Someone who walks into a situation and says, I don't know everything, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna get with the right people. I'm gonna read the right stuff, and I'm gonna start exploring some of these hypotheses and I'm gonna challenge some of my biases, some of the things that I thought were 

true and yeah.

Erik: Yeah. No, I totally agree. There's a lot of great thinkers out there. One of one I listened to recently was, Funny enough, a BYU speech, I think it was a forum by Liz Wiseman in, I think it was in 2016, and she talks exactly about that idea that the smartest people in the room are usually the ones who don't know.

And her usually in that uncomfortable space of, I've gotta figure this out and be curious and I've gotta stay true to my integrity and the things I've been trained, but willing and open to try something new. And I've found that. In academics, it's pretty common for a lot of us to close our door and to do our thing and say, I'm researching this topic and I am the expert on it, without realizing that topic is being approached from a lot of different angles and we're so [00:16:00] myopic and, and one-sided or short-sighted on it, rather than saying, you know what, my work could really benefit.

From someone from that population that I'm talking about, or someone who's lived this experience or someone who disagrees with what I'm proposing, because that's where the synergy happens. And you can also step back and say, well, I've, I've totally got this wrong. And in the world of epidemiology and biostatistics, it's all about how you measure things.

 If you measure things correctly, you're gonna feel really good at what you've done at the end of the day, and also that you've measured the right things. So it's one thing to measure something well, but it's another to measure the right things and have the people around you to say, these are the things you should be thinking about.

 So often I've had great people pull me aside and say, you're doing great things, but have you thought about this? And it's changed everything for me. Yeah, and that's true outside of the academic world as well, right? Yeah, it really is, isn't it? And, and when you're talking about as well, the. You know, the social determinants of health versus individual choice and [00:17:00] behavior, that's also a really sticking a big sticking point for a lot of people because, you know, we relate it to truths that we've been taught as children, at least those of us in the, in the church of Jesus Christ, of latterly saints, right?

That there are things to be acted upon and things to act, and this idea of moral agency and choice and freedom, those great American words, right? And sometimes I think we put too much weight on people's individual autonomy and agency. And other times we put way too much weight on the social determinants that we're a victim of our circumstances and like all things that have somehow become political, it's usually the right answers in the middle.

Yeah. And, and that, that's really the, the quest of my research as, as a social epidemiologist. If I were to classify myself, that's how I would do it. Is. What's, what, where is it? What does that line between individual and society and things that are placed upon me versus things I choose to find the best path for me and my [00:18:00] family?

Cougar: Yeah, I totally agree. There's so many false dichotomies where it's like, is it A or B? And sometimes the answer is yes. In doses it's A and B, and sometimes that, you know, the proportion will shift too, depending on other circumstances. I just, I, I love that. I, I'll be totally honest with you, I don't hear that.

Every day in public health. And so I applaud you for kind trying to find that balance between, hey, we each have individual responsibilities, but. The, the environment and the opportunities that we're given greatly impact our health outcomes and our life outcomes, if you will. So 

recognizing that. Yeah, and again, I think depending on the things that you're trying to solve and those messy issues you're after, sometimes you'll, you'll need to gravitate to the individual.

Sometimes you'll need to gravitate more to the ecological. And both of those are good in the right balance. Yeah. And. That is a really hard part, I think, especially for those who are saying, what is public health? [00:19:00] And now they have a, we have a spotlight on us. Right? You know, this covid 19 thing that everyone's talking about apparently happened.

And, and with that, people are saying, well, your policies are crazy, or Your thought, or, or they apply labels to, to the whole group of us of you're, you're liberal or you're too conservative, or whatever the label is that's thrown upon us and. I think like any profession, you'll find a lot of us are actually more in the middle on things, and there's a few outliers who are loud and those who are in the middle are usually walking the right path.

Yeah. I call 

it the alt middle. Yeah. And I, and tell my wife all the time, you know, I feel like we're in the alt middle. We don't have a home or a tribe per se, but man, trying to ping pong back and forth and find what, what really feels right and what, uh, Yeah. What I think is the truth. 

Erik: So, absolutely. And, and seeking truth is not an easy thing, right?

And in this profession where we have a great responsibility to students and you know, I, I think every day of their parents, right? So they send their kids [00:20:00] that they've worked so hard to raise and they send them to us and, and hope that we are doing the right thing by telling them truth, no matter how hard or difficult those truths are.

And I think it's really important that we. Show students from all angles how things are, but also avoiding the angles that might not be the most, uh, verifiable. And so it's really in our best interest to stay in that middle and say, well, even if this is a politically charged topic, because our field has become that way, how do we make sure that we're giving important viewpoints, but from people who know what they're talking about?

Yeah. And so finding those right sources and finding that those right viewpoints. Um, to help people coalesce their own ambition and their own future of what's right is really important to me. 

Cougar: I love it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna force you to switch gears just a little bit. Eric, you're an open book. You're, you're really open and, and, you're comfortable being vulnerable, in so many ways.

And you have seven children and, You have a [00:21:00] personal interest at this point in pulmonary hypertension. Will you give us a little background on how that's impacted your family? It's gonna be tough. I know. I just really appreciate you sharing and I, I have to think there's gonna be a couple of takeaways, some actionable items for a listener somewhere.

Erik: Yeah, sure. Um, lemme gather myself for a second.

Hmm. I guess the, probably the, the place I'd start with at Cougar is, you asked how it has influenced me, I think was the word you used. It's changed everything. So when I think of my entire life, I think I was a, a good person maybe trying to do good things, and that was true. You know, I did the things that I was raised to do to be good to my neighbor, to be good to my parents, to honor my siblings, to try and love and show empathy. I did the things I was taught. I served a mission for our [00:22:00] church, the Church of Jesus Christ, latter of Saints with, with great ambition and great love and no regret. And through all of that, I, I think, I thought I was doing the right things.

 I didn't know I was doing the right things until my son was born. And, and again, that's where everything changed. Yeah. So, So Tate, our, our third, our third born is an amazing kid. He's the kid who probably wasn't supposed to survive. He's the kid who, has defied all odds and, and brightens everybody's day.

Everyone who knows him loves him and feels a deep connection with. With other, with community, and quite frankly, with, with our savior, he, he's really has this ability, like all kids I think, who have a really challenging path with disability. So, pulmonary hypertension in, in short clips and phrases is essentially high blood pressure in the lungs.

 and it leads to heart failure. So these kiddos who get it, essentially have a heart attack or a stroke or some other [00:23:00] cardiovascular event, and, and that's what takes 'em. It's extremely debilitating in that these kids, , have shortness of breath. They lose a lot of their motor control and ability in that they, you know, for example, using Tate as our Guinea pig here.

 They just can't do things. They can't walk upstairs, which seems pretty commonplace for most of us. He can't run, he can't do things that other children do. And it's a li it's a very hard thing to go through, especially for kids. Who have this because they just can't be a kid. Now for those of us who are older, we're probably gonna get this when we're older.

It's an old people disease, but for kids it's just, it's brutal. So, with Tate, you know, it's been an emotional topic for me my whole life. It's been something since he was diagnosed. I wanted to learn more about it, but I just kept putting it on the back burner cuz I, I couldn't do it. And I, I finally got over that barrier when I came here to BYU said, you know, that was the time.

Why not? And so in collaboration with his, uh, [00:24:00] physician at Indiana University and then in the, with the goal of, of training some students how to do some research, we, we've started to branch out and do some work in pulmonary hypertension, some basic work that just hasn't been done, some. A cross-sectional study looking at the prevalence of, of certain, side effects and symptoms that these kids have looking at the medicines they take and what those do to them.

 We looked at the effects of, you know, the social, distancing for these kids during covid 19 and, and some other projects in the work with that. So for me, you know, going back in, tying that to my other research, this is the messy middle. Again, it, it's emotion, it's love, it's, um, Vulnerable people, and it's a lot of social stuff that people can't see.

Well, how does this affect a parent? How does this affect a younger sibling? How does it affect an older sibling who might, you know, not saying this about my own children, but might feel differently, or that that kid's more loved or something. I, I think these are real things that families grapple with.

Cougar: I'm really touched that you'll share that. I'm, [00:25:00] I'm wondering maybe there's a, a place here where we coalesce each of these topics. Do you have, you're a great father, you come from a large family. You have a large family.

Do you, is there anything, it doesn't need to be H P V or, or lead or, Pulmonary hypertension specific, but you have, is there one or two things that, uh, you could share with a listener related to parenting health? Maybe, maybe if you've put on your public health, your public health education cap, and you promote, you passionately promote a health behavior.

Erik: Yeah. Um, I, you know, two things initially come to mind, so I'll do the lighter one first, maybe the, the harder one second. Sure. The first is that, You know, the, everything I've read, everything I've observed in parents that I admire, um, including my own, my in-laws, friends, people that I see, that I say, I really want to be like them.

I, I see how their kids are turning out, and I see the strength of those relationships, you know, as we're all relational beings. That's what it's about. [00:26:00] The thing that I see is that the people I want to emulate provide an incredible amount of stability for their family, and stability doesn't look the same for everybody.

But it does look the same for a kid that knows they have a safe space and a place to be, that they have food on the table, that they have arms that will surround them with love unconditionally, regardless of their choices. And that's what I'm craving and seeking. I don't achieve it by any means. But we're working at it and I think that's, that's my, the thing I think about parenting.

Everyone's got their different ways and their different styles and personalities to, to grapple with, but. And, and each child is definitely the same, but I think that's the common denominator is, is that they want stability. They crave just knowing who they are and who their identity is and that you support it.

The heavier thing I would say in parenting is, it may seem foreign to some, but probably those who would, who dare venture on this podcast and listen to us this long, um, is a [00:27:00] spiritual component. And, and this is the heavier one, you know, my whole life has been. Uh, you know, my adult life at least, has been dictated by following what we call the Holy Ghost of the Spirit.

So I, I went, you know, I, I shared lightly my history of my education, so forth. The reason I went to grad school is because I had a really strong impression that I was supposed to, and I was gonna go to big league school on the East coast that everybody looks at. I won't name it. Um, and as I was saying no to the University of Minnesota, the Holy Ghost, I, I thought he was in the room with me.

He said, you're supposed to go there. I remember turning to my wife and saying, did you hear that we're supposed to go to Minnesota? And she said, what are you talking about? And you know, you fast forward and we're at Minnesota and the story with Tate that I was just, yeah, generally alluding to why were we in Minnesota?

It was for Tate because Tate was born. And there, his condition was caught, in an ultrasound from a curious new technician who had just trained on this and was looking [00:28:00] for things in the heart. So she did a little extra search, so his condition was caught early rather than at bedside. He was born to the hospital where the surgery he needed was pioneered.

So for me it was no coincidence. Right? Yeah. You follow that to. You know, if I'm being honest, at that time I thought I was gonna try and get a job here at byu. I interviewed, I didn't get it. You guys hired Dr. Crandle as you should have, and I felt heartbroken. And the truth is, I think heavenly father was opening a path for me to go to St.

Louis. And again, to meet Mario, who has been in all instances, a father figure to me, love that man. Yeah. and while we were in St. Louis, the holy, you know, why are we here? The Holy Ghost told me to go and work with Mario and you know, I didn't know what Mario even was about. I just had interviewed with him.

I thought he was a good guy. I'll go with him. And while there, the Holy Ghost, uh, you know, had prompted us to go and we get there and that's when we learned that to add [00:29:00] pulmonary hypertension again from a curious physician, and again, who was really expert in treating it. And then you've fast forward, why would we go to Indiana?

Of all the places that I could have got a job? Well, it was because we felt prompted to go to Indiana and we met Michael Johansen, who's the world's greatest physician, , hands down. And that's where Tate's got the best care. He's received all the stuff that he needs to, to survive. And then you say, well, things were going great there.

Why would you leave it, Eric? And, and I don't know, other than the Holy Ghost said so. So tying that back to parenting, I think you have to prepare for the unexpected and you have to have daily consecrated deliberate effort to, to find God and he will guide your path for good. That's his promise. That's his covenant promise.

And, call it what you may, but I believe in it fully, and I, I've experienced it Foley to know that that's how it works for me. 

Cougar: Oh my goodness. I'm so glad I asked that questionnaire and I'm so glad that you [00:30:00] are indeed an open book and are willing to. To go there and to share those really personal, uh, experiences that you've had 

with the spirit. 

There's just so faith promoting and inspiring. So I know I've been blessed from your, your willingness to share, and I'm certain our listeners needed to hear that. I've taken a lot of your time. It feels like we should just end there because I don't know, I don't know how you're gonna, you're gonna build off of that.

That was so touching. Let me ask, and I always ask this, I, I'm curious to know what you're reading right now, what you're listening to right now. What's inspiring you? How are you staying curious? How are you approaching learning with humility? Uh, we all need to be lifelong learners as, as soon as we think we're done and we know everything, man, we've cut off.

I don't know if we've cut off the spirit entirely, but we've, we've cut off the opportunity for new learning, which so often comes through the Holy 

Erik: Spirit, that's for sure. Yeah, definitely. I think a part of us kind of dies [00:31:00] when we stop seeking, right? Yeah. Yeah. What am I reading? . Really, this comes from a conversation I have with my brother-in-law and just a little background about him. He's a really interesting guy. He's traveled the world and it's taken his own time to find his way. And someone I really admire and has been a friend all along the way.

 He ended up marrying a, a black woman from South Africa. And being an interracial couple has been an interesting path for them, and I won't go into that, other than to say, I've asked some questions about, well, how do you understand your, your wife's experiences? How do you help navigate that with her?

What have been your experiences, uh, as you, uh, walk through this world? And the advice from him was, well, why don't you find out for yourself and like any great educator, you know that you actually learned the most by great questions. Right? And he asked that great question. And I said, well, what do you mean?

He said, well, how would you find out more about. Her perspective, where would you go again, with [00:32:00] questions and, and through this conversation, essentially it came to, oh, I should be reading from voices from that community to better understand. And so that's really where my reading list comes from. I, I knew you'd ask a question like this, so I was trying to think, what have I read lately that.

Is not maybe student papers or things that I'm doing for my research. So one that I've been really interested in. One thing, one topic I've been trying to wrap my head around is the black experience in the us. You know, we've had some interesting movements in our country and there are a lot of feelings one way or another, and I didn't know what my feelings were on these issues and how to.

To be a part of a solution rather than to perpetuate, poor feelings. This is true both inside of our faith community and outside of it, and where we walk as global citizens. And so I've been reading controversial books on purpose because they raised controversial. I wanna to know what's in that, what, what, what is it that's, You know, kind of pricking people.

So [00:33:00] I've read work books like Between the World and Me by Coats. Mm-hmm. Interesting. Book, right? To gain some perspective on what it's like to be a black father. , I read Michelle Obama's memoir. I'm Becoming, again, an interesting thing. Not that I agree with everything in these books, but I, I learned a lot.

I'm more on the medical profession, A Black Man in a White Coat by Damien Tweedy. I've read some old stuff by w e b Dub Boy, the Philadelphia Negro. Great book. Great insight. Still true. You know, at our time, I've really been interested in the latter day saint perspective as well, cuz again, this is the world that we live in. 

And so I, I came across a collection of essays by Birch, I think she's the editor, it's called My Lord, he calls me. It's a series of short essays. I really like this one cuz they're two, three page essays of people's experiences and so I can read 'em, in between things. But if I'm honest, my, my real reading, Cougar comes mostly from the New Testament and from the Book of Mormon.

They're the most correct of any books that I've come across. They give me the most insight into my, [00:34:00] my myself, my parenting, my uh, academic pursuits, my mentoring of students, my love for self. So I read there deeper and find more meaning as I'm connecting to these other sources, so that, that's what I spend my time doing.

Cougar: Oh my goodness, I love it. I'm gonna get emotional now. You're, you're amazing, Eric. And, uh, you know, you, you're still, I'm sure you're anxious to find out exactly why the spirit's brought you here, why, why you moved your family across the country, uh, to come back to Utah and Utah County and be at byu. I can tell you though, as a.

As a dad who has three kids studying at byu, I'm thankful you're here and I'm thankful that you're not the only one that, is really good at your field. Really knowledgeable, well prepared. You have the research skills to advance, uh, your research agenda and to improve the world, but you're also able to teach students at [00:35:00] byu.

With the spirit and make sure that everything you teach is what we say bathed in the light of the restored gospel. That is why we come to byu, both as students and as faculty. So I'm so thankful for that. Sorry if I get emotional there, but 

Erik: No, that's absolutely what it's about, right? I mean, you know, I've, I've been enough places to scene when to see when someone walks into the room that their ego doesn't fit with them.

And it, it, it sucks like a vampire, all of the energy out of the room, and it sucks, uh, inquiry and, and seeking of truth. And I, I felt that from other people. But the people I admire in our world, and I've seen a lot of this here at BYU and other places, um, are the people who come in and build you up.

They're the ones who aren't seeking the awards, but tend to earn those awards. Because their entire goal is to collaborate and lift and build other people, not for their own notoriety, but to help people get to what they're trying to get to. And that's kind of my same mantra or goal here at byu. [00:36:00] Lift these students and get them into the best grad programs, the best jobs.

I don't, I don't need an award. I don't need any of that. Cause at the end of the day, I, I'll be able to get a nice thank you from someone that I've built a relationship and I love and, and that's the true paycheck of this field. Yeah. 

Cougar: Well, I really appreciate it and all my perspective changed once my kids were here.

Yeah. And uh, then I had much more gratitude for the mission of this university and for the faculty and the staff and the administrators that. And make sure it happens. So, oh my goodness, my friend and my neighbor. Thank you. Thanks for joining the White Health Podcast. We're gonna ask you to be back on the show here in about 24 hours, whatever.

Erik: Sounds good. before we, can I share something before we end? Maybe, yeah, please. I maybe if it's worthwhile, bring it in. If not, that's fine. 

This is for you Cougar. Oh, for me. I know. Maybe not even for the podcast, but. This is how I operate, so get used to it. Okay. So I mentioned I've been reading a lot in the New Testament. That's part of our Come Follow Me curriculum. Yeah. That's partly what's spawning it. But I've, [00:37:00] I've found Jesus to be different than what I thought he was when I was younger.

You know, he, he was this Zeus with lightning bolts that was so inaccessible when I was younger, and now he's, he's a friend. I see 'em everywhere. I see him in my kids, I see 'em in my colleagues, I see 'em in students. I see a lot of things. in, in one Peter 29, it uses this crazy word peculiar and I used to think that was directed as kind of hateful towards people.

Yeah. Who, who tried to follow the Savior disciples. I've really tried to study this word and it's, it's led me down a path that I thought was worth sharing with you. So, One is that this word peculiar doesn't mean what we think it means. I, you know, in our connotation, we say peculiar, I think we think strange, unique, weird, odd, odd, um, that kid and, and nerd, whatever label you want to throw, that, that puts someone out of the group.

But it's actually interesting when you study what this word [00:38:00] means, and especially in first Peter, two verse nine. It, it talks about the Greek meaning of this word being purchased or preserved. And if you look at the Hebrew word, I, I don't dare pronounce it, but it's something like se that means to be a special possession or a property.

And if you look at Jewish history, that also means a charm that supersedes logic. So as he's calling us, his peculiar people, he's calling us. Purchased. Yeah. He's calling us something that, a charm that supersedes logic. He's calling us his beautiful special possession. And that's what it means to be peculiar or unique.

And so when I think of that, I say, sign me up. You've had Carl Hanson on here. Yeah. You've had others on here who've talked about mental health and other things, and. When we're struggling, we seem to look for any way to be peculiar in that former connotation of, I need to be different. I need to stand out, look at my hair color, look at my piercings.

Look at my tattoos, [00:39:00] anything to get attention. Cuz these are people who need to be loved and the true way to be unique. There's only one way. There's only one path to happiness. And that's coming back to him. Yeah. To be peculiar in that you let him purchase you, you let him allow you to be his special property and possession his loved child.

Who is a charm that supersedes logic and that's what his love feels like. And so I guess why I'm sharing this, I'm sure there's a lot of people who are hurting who might be listening to this and to know they're not alone. Yeah. Yeah. 

Cougar: Oh, Eric, next level. Everything you say is next level. I really appreciate it.

Yeah. I appreciate your preparation for the podcast to put some thought into what's most important, uh, what, what will. What can you and I say that will most bless the lives of listeners and give them a little insight into what we're trying to do here in the Department of Public Health? Cause that's why we're doing this.

Absolutely. Thank, thank you my 

Erik: friend. [00:40:00] Thank you. Great to be with you. So appreciate it.