Raising Strong Boys and Strong Women: A Conversation with Ayugi Ntambwe-Kalala

 In this inspiring episode of Y Health, host Dr. Cougar Hall sits down with Ayugi Ntambwe-Kalala — public health professional, educator, and mother of three — to discuss her remarkable journey from a small fishing town in Kenya to her current role as Student Experience Coordinator in BYU’s Department of Public Health. 

Ayugi shares how her boldness and vision helped her build a global career spanning 31 countries, launch a menstrual health company in Kenya, and now mentor students as they turn classroom learning into meaningful public health careers. 

The conversation takes an especially heartfelt turn as Ayugi and Dr. Hall explore what it means to raise strong, compassionate sons and daughters in today’s world — and how society can better support both boys and girls to flourish together. 

Full of humor, honesty, and hope, this episode reminds us that strength and kindness can coexist, and that helping others grow often begins with the courage to “just go for it.” 

Recorded, Edited & Produced by Averee Bates, Christy Gonzalez, Harper Xinyu Zhang, Madison McArthur, Kailey Hopkins, and Tanya Gale

Transcript

Cougar: [00:00:00] Welcome to Y Health, a podcast brought to you by the BYU Public Health Department. I'm Dr. Cougar Hall, a professor here at Brigham Young University where the, you are a student parent, or BYU fan. This podcast will help you navigate the world of public health. Our podcast strives to help individuals receive accurate information regarding public health, so whether it's global or local, we will discuss how it pertains to you. 

Just kick back and relax as we talk about Y Health I, Ayugi Ntambwe-Kalala. Am I close on your last name? 

Ayugi: You are, yes. Right on. You did it. 

Cougar: Hi Ayugi. Thank you for joining the Y Health Podcast. 

Ayugi: Thank you for having me. I 

Cougar: have been looking forward to this discussion. You and I have had a couple discussions in the hallway in the last year. 

Yeah. Yes. So I have an idea of where this [00:01:00] conversation might go, and I'm really excited. 

Ayugi: Well, thank you. Thank you for having me and um, yeah, I'm excited to just get to chat with my friend. 

Cougar: Yeah, that's exactly what we're doing. So let's start though, 'cause our listeners don't know you and I don't know all of your background in education and all the things that have brought you here at this point at BYU. 

So will you share a little bit for us? 

Ayugi: Yeah, for sure. So, Ayugi Ntambwe-Kalala, I am 35 years old, all of 35, and I, um, am a mother of three children. I've got two boys and my girl, so my oldest is eight, well he's seven. He's turning eight in about a month, and we're saying eight because that's the topic in our house right now. 

About to get baptized is very excited. Um, and then we've got a five-year-old, a zuri who is, my goodness, my, my lesson in patience, my lesson in, you know, loving a feminist strong girl and trying to make sure that I don't crush her spirit while I'm also trying to [00:02:00] parent her. Yeah. So, and then I've got Kana, who is one and a half and is my little baby. 

Um, I was born and raised in Kenya. Small town called Kisumu. It's a fishing town. Uh, it's right on the shores of Lake Victoria, lake Victoria's about 15 minutes from my parents' farm where I grew up. And, um, it, it was just a fun, a fun upbringing. We would get fresh fish from the lake and go swimming and, um, you know, my, my little town is, we, we mostly know each other. 

And so just a, a cute little place. I moved from there when I was 18, um, and I went straight to Westminster in Salt Lake City. Um, I got my public health and economics degrees from there and I loved Westminster. It was a really fun experience for me. It was good 'cause it was a small, it's a smallest school. 

It so coming in internationally it was, it was really helpful for me to be in a setting where. I kind of knew most [00:03:00] people. Mm-hmm. Um, so came from Westminster, uh, graduated. I, I met my husband in my junior year. He had just come from his mission. He served his mission in Texas, so San Antonio. Austin. And he was, we laugh about this all the time 'cause he. 

He was just straight off his mission and was trying to convert everybody that he could. He was. And so, you know, when we first met, I was like, oh, you know what, we'd made good friends, but let's, let's not take it any further than that. Um, but we were really good friends for a year and then eventually decided that we actually wanted to explore more and, um, ended up getting married. 

I joined the church, uh, 12 years ago now. Uh, been married 11 years and, um, yeah, it's, it's been a wonderful journey. In the middle of all of that, I continued to pursue, um, a career and my education. So I started my career, um, originally in quality assurance and I quickly learned that that [00:04:00] was not the space for me because I would fall asleep in meetings. 

Oh no. And it was, it was so awful. 'cause it's very out of character for me. And, but that was my big sign that I needed to get out of there. So I did, and I moved more into the development space. The company I was working with at the time, usana, um, health Sciences in Salt Lake, um, had a foundation and they worked, um, specifically in food equity across the world. 

Mm-hmm. Um, including here in Utah. And, um, at the time they were trying to hire a president for the foundation. I was 23 years old and. I saw the posting and I said, you know what, I'm just gonna apply. And if you know me, you know that that is not out of character. I said, I'm gonna apply. You know, not, not because I'm, I want to, um, be the president right now, but it's something I would like to do in the future. 

And so if I can get an interview, I can see what they ask and then I can know how to prepare myself for the future. Um. Anyway, they were just so flabbergasted by the audacity that I [00:05:00] had to do that, that they said, you know what? We're gonna give her an interview. 

I love it. 

And so then I met, uh, I mean I ended up meeting with the HR president, meeting with the CEO, the president. 

Anyway, so they decided to carve out a role for me, um, as a program manager. And they created the role and I could kind of take it any direction they wanted to see what I would do, and they just wanted to have me in their pipeline. And so. Did that for about five years, grew in that. But while I was there, learned that I was, I had a natural, um, ability to, um, build strong relationships and get people to see a vision, um, and want to be a part of it. 

So I kind of moved closer and I, I was moved and I moved, um, closer into fundraising. For the organization and, uh, was pretty successful there. So I started to build my skillset, um, and right around the pandemic decided to take a little break from [00:06:00] that, which I, I really enjoyed it. I built programs in 31 countries and had a wonderful experience. 

One of my favorite programs was. We did in Indonesia where, um, there's this town that just had Indonesia in general, uh, struggles with stunted growth in children. And um, just the vitamin A is not very high in their natural diet. And so one of the projects that I worked on was, uh, looking at this village where we focused on, um, there were a few bright spots. 

So we looked at those and what they were doing and you know, there was this tree that had this fruit that. Um, majority of, of the people actually looked down on because it was considered what the, so this poor and then this poor, poor, right? And so they said this is what the poor, poor people eat. Um, but the poor, poor people were doing really well in terms of their growth. 

And so anyway, just kind of educating around that and we started to see better outcomes for the children over a couple years. So that was my favorite project. Um. But as the, uh, [00:07:00] worked at the foundation for five years and, um, then I, as the pandemic was coming on, I was actually, I was pregnant and I was completing my MBA, um, at the time. 

So I, I got an MBA and uh, got a nonprofit management certificate along with it and, um, yeah, so did that. The pandemic was coming, then I had the baby and we were all on lockdown. That was a lot. It was a lot. So, um, one of the things that I'd wanted to do, um, you know, from earlier on was to work on menstrual health in Kenya. 

And I had some ideas on a company that I wanted to build. And so it was just the opportune moment with the pandemic. My husband was working remotely. We had just had the baby. We were stuck inside. Um, politically it was not a great time for us to be around, and so we decided to leave and so we did. And we were in Kenya for about, um, a year and [00:08:00] a half following that, where I launched a menstrual health company, uh, providing, um, products, uh, sanitary products, and, um, doing a lot of education. 

Um, if you're familiar with menstrual health issues in the developing world, um, a lot of the times the products that are available are very poor quality, um, and actually end up causing more harm to, to the women there. Um, and anyway, so launched that company. We were there for about a year and a half, and then, and then the world opened back up and it was time to come back to the US and so, uh, we did that and that company is still running in Kenya. 

Um, and I sat on the board, um, for it, but we came back, uh, to the US and I, uh, continued my career. I worked with an organization that worked in vaccine equity and um, was the director of strategic partnerships for them, and worked very closely with the Gates Foundation, WHO, and other similar [00:09:00] organizations. 

And, um, I really enjoyed that. Um, however, with my growing family, um, there was a lot of travel involved in that, in that work. And so my family was growing and the kids, you know, just the, what they needed was changing. And so, um, I decided that I was going to transition out of that, um, so that I could be more present, um, and just travel less. 

Um, I, I was in some places where. There were some significant health risks, um, like, you know, a cholera outbreak in Malawi two weeks after I left. Mm. And thinking that, man, I, I could have brought that to my kids, you know? And, um, just seeing that perhaps it wasn't the time or season for me to be doing that, and who knows if I go back to it, but I, at that time, it was not right for me to continue. 

So. Um, came back, um, and started to think, okay, well what do I wanna do now? And, um, you know, fo definitely focus more time on, uh, my children and my, my family. Um, but [00:10:00] also I'm just one of those people that always feels like I have capacity, uh, for more. And so I, uh, then just started looking at higher education and I specifically started looking at the church education system, and that's how I came to BYU. 

Um, on a, uh, it was a, it is a part-time role and that has been really helpful because I'm able to be present for my family, um, in the ways that I need to while also doing meaningful work that, um, is really impactful. Um, here at BYUI work with, uh, students. I'm a students' experiences coordinator in the public health department. 

Um, and hopefully you've, you've met with me, and if you haven't, you should. Um. But yes, so I, I work with students and really the core of what I do is help you figure out how to turn your education into a career, how to launch your career. I think especially in the post COVID world, um, just the public health careers.[00:11:00] 

Have broadened even more if you can believe it. And, uh, the, the possibilities are endless. Uh, but also the preparation needed for those possibilities, um, is significant. And so, um, I get the privilege of helping students kind of figure out what part of that looks like outside of the, um, you know, textbook and, and their classroom preparation. 

Taking that into the real world. 

Cougar: I remember. My department chair after he interviewed you, he didn't gimme your name. He didn't gimme details. All he said was, I just interviewed a woman for a position here. She's overqualified, so I don't think we have a shot at actually getting her. Yeah. But she blows everyone else away. 

And I'm like, oh no, don't, don't fire me to bring her on, is what I'm thinking. Self preservation, right? Yeah. But, and then later when he said, I actually think. I think we might get her like, it's like, oh man, that's a huge w for our department. And now to hear your entire [00:12:00] background and the skills and the work experience, um, whether it's from fundraising to, you know, your business degree and then of course starting a business and all of it's public health. 

Mm-hmm. That's, that's the common thread IU use. Yes. It's all common health. Excuse me. That's the common thread at Yogi is it's all public health. Mm-hmm. We are so lucky to have you. Our students are so lucky to have you here. Thank, thank you. Oh my goodness. 

Ayugi: And I'm, I feel very lucky to be here. You know, while I've been here, I decided to kind of pivot my whole. 

Plan my life plan. Yeah. By being in a higher ed environment. And now I'm getting my doctorate, so, 

Cougar: oh, here we go. What are you studying? 

Ayugi: I am studying education leadership. I am looking, um, I think there's the multiple things that I'm interested in. Um, the church is growing a lot in Sub-Saharan Africa, which is where I'm originally from. 

And so, um, as that happens, I see. That there's going to be some need, [00:13:00] uh, for lenses that perhaps speak to that part of the world, uh, within the church education system. And so I don't know exactly what that looks like, but um, he's told me to prepare and so that's what I'm doing right now. 

Cougar: I love it. Good for you. 

You must have, do you have 28 hours every day in your life? You must, I dunno how you, for this, I need, 

Ayugi: I need like 30 hours. 

Cougar: Oh my goodness. You. 

Ayugi: But my life runs on Asana. If you are familiar. It's a Yeah, 

Cougar: I am. I love it. Well, you're, you're such an impressive person and you've packed a lot into 35 years. And so thank you for that glorious introduction. 

Let's talk a little bit more about your role here at BYU as, um, student Experience Coordinator. 

Ayugi: Yep. 

Cougar: Did I get that right? 

Ayugi: Yes, you did, 

Cougar: because I, I, I wasn't totally sure of your title. I just know that I tell every student who contacts me Yeah. To contact you. So well that, 

Ayugi: that'll do too. Um, 

Cougar: so maybe tell us more about the opportunities. 

Some of these are formal [00:14:00] internships, but the students that I've pointed to you mm-hmm. And you've actually helped me take students to Ecuador. Uh, more recently, you helped me take, uh, a group of 12 amazing first generation college students to Costa Rica mm-hmm. For a 10 day experience, really building their resume out. 

Mm-hmm. Taking what they're learning in their classes and then going and, and observing and mm-hmm. And really, really. Uh, immersing themselves in different cultures and seeing different approaches to public health promotion to healthcare. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh, it really has benefited them, and it's also a ton of fun. 

Mm-hmm. Um, so those are, those are kind of the contact points that I've had with you and my students have had with you. Yeah. But I know we're just, that's just the tip of the iceberg. So give us a little more of what, what opportunities are there for students and how you're helping them. 

Ayugi: Yes, yes. Um, I'd love to do that. 

Um, so. About a year ago, we launched a whole new, you know, a whole new, I wanna say curriculum, but I don't know that that's [00:15:00] the right word. Um, but the whole idea was going from a traditional internship where we had students go into the health department that would then never return to the health Department postgraduation. 

Um, and we kind of revolutionized that into what we're calling an applied learning, um, experience for students. That includes a couple different things. Uh, under that there's mentored research where you work with a professor on a research project. It's an actual project that they're working on, and so you get that hands-on experience. 

I typically recommend that for students that are looking to go to graduate school because that really boosts their application, uh, but it also boosts their skillset. Um, and then, uh, we've got, uh, the traditional internship where you go in and, uh, we require that students, um, complete a certain number of hours of that. 

Um, and that's usually, I, I recommend that for students that are looking to launch their career right after graduation. Um, we have a study, study abroad option, which is what you're referencing, Cougar. [00:16:00] Um, and it is so cool because. I mean, you could just go many places in the world and get that experience. 

And, you know, typically I think it, it's open for all students, but specifically when students tell me that they're interested in global health, um, I usually will send them as say, you know, look at the study abroad opportunities, because that's one way to start to see that there's a big world out there and there's many ways to live, many ways to, you know, do health promotion and really practice public health. 

And so. I try to encourage students that are interested in that to, to go ahead with the study abroad. Um, and then we have a practicum option, and that is typically for students that are earlier on in their, in their college career and just kind of wanting to dip their foot in the water and see what this whole public health thing is. 

'cause you know, a lot of people don't really know what public health is in practice at the point where they're choosing their major. And so, um, with the practicum, we have this, um. Opportunity for students to go in where they're [00:17:00] not quite so advanced in their public health knowledge, but it does give them an idea of what this all could look like. 

Um, so those are the, those are the four, um, kind of, uh, categories of, of, uh, applied learning. And under all of those categories, we have funds that help support students and. I, you know, I always look at how much money is allocated by the department and by the college to these student experiences. And I am amazed because I don't, I don't think I've seen this anywhere else. 

And I could tell you that when I was a student, when I was a college student, I was poor. So maybe, maybe others aren't quite as poor, but. I would have done anything to have the amount of support that we have here on the BYU campus. And, um, I would try to take advantage of every opportunity. I was just, uh, you know, we were chatting earlier and I was just telling you Cougar, like I would, I would be gone every semester. 

I would [00:18:00] be on my way somewhere Cool to go. And do, you know, something, something that continues to build up my experience. Um, I've got a student right now who. She actually just emailed me last night. She's in Morocco and we know she we're talking about the couscous and just all these things that she's experiencing, but it's all under the umbrella of a public health internship and she's getting, you know, support. 

She's gotten a scholarship to do this. She's gonna be there all semester. And I mean, what an incredible opportunity to, to not only build yourself, 'cause I, I believe that any experience you have with travel really. It's not just the professional, it also opens up your mind to understand more about the world. 

Um, and anyway, so we have in an incredible amount of resources, and I want every student to know that and to apply for the funding. We always, we put our information in the, in the newsletter that goes out every, um, I believe it goes out every Tuesday. Um, I [00:19:00] think, and you know, we put out the information of how to apply and I want every student to apply because the funds are there and I don't like returning the funds to the department. 

Okay. So if you could just apply for the funds, that would be great because then I mean, you get an opportunity to experience something cool while building your resume for what life looks like post-graduation. 

Cougar: Yeah. Oh my goodness. As you're talking and, and I'm thinking the same thing, I, I, uh, as an undergrad, this just wasn't even part of my thought process. 

Mm-hmm. It was just, okay, what are the next 16 credit hours I need to get through? And then Okay, what's the next semester will look like? And just, it was this linear path. From, you know, enrolling in courses, paying tuition, and then graduating. Mm-hmm. And then I'll start to think about where I find a job. 

And I, what you're describing is a completely different model, which makes so much more sense to me, which is you're trying to help students build a career while [00:20:00] they're still in school. 

Ayugi: Mm-hmm. 

Cougar: And really to, to expedite this, you know, from learning in the classroom, to experiencing in the real world to making connections and networking. 

And then landing your job, like, it's just, it just makes so much more sense as you're speaking. I'm thinking of a couple students that I've worked with. One is years ago, and it was one of our undergrad students who wound up getting an MPH as well, so he, he stayed in the program, but a colleague and I had, we had been working with a nonprofit. 

Actually on the shores of Lake Victoria, but I think on the Tanzania side. 

Ayugi: Okay. 

Cougar: And I'm struggling to remember the name of the town. I think it might be called Buco. Bukoba. Okay. But I'm, I'm sure I'm botching that now that I say that out loud. But I have to say Lake Victoria is stunning. Yes. And for most of our listeners, they'll think of a lake. 

Yeah. But it's more like an ocean. It's it, it's like one of the Great Lakes. Yes. In the United States. Because I think we flew over it for hours. And I'm like, we're still over the lake. We're still over the [00:21:00] lake. Yes. But he. He was able to connect with this, this nonprofit, and the monies provided by BYU combined with the monies provided by the organization. 

Mm-hmm. He was able to spend his entire summer there. And then they offered him a job. Yes. I think he decided to go on and get a PhD as well. Yeah. But, but like that's how it works. Yes. Like you are a known entity. 'cause you've been working with them for months and they're like, why would we open up a search and hire a stranger? 

We know you, we know your skills. Yes. And you know us. Mm-hmm. It just. It's just seamless. It is. And, and then right now I'm thinking about a couple of students and you email me each semester and say, Hey, give me an update. And, and I love your emails 'cause you're like, do it in one sentence for don't, don't wordsmith this, just tell me what they're doing. 

Uh, but I have two students right now, one who's looking at going to dental school and one who she can't decide between, uh. An md, a traditional md or becoming a a, a PA or a [00:22:00] physician's assistant. But either way, and she's just gonna rock it. But I think the research we've been doing, my guess is that she may graduate. 

With an undergrad in probably a half a dozen publications, he's, he's probably not far behind. 

Ayugi: Wow. 

Cougar: And just as frame of reference, yeah. I finished a PhD and interviewed at BYU with no publications. Wow. And that really separates our undergrads as they apply for these professional schools. 

Ayugi: It does, 

Cougar: because they've all done lots of volunteering and so many of them have served missions and speak another language and have that. 

You know, that experience, which enriches their resume. Mm-hmm. But to also say, oh, and I've been working with Dr. So and so for the last two and a half years. Mm-hmm. And I have three or four publications. I've presented it to international conferences. 

Ayugi: How incredible. 

Cougar: So, and the funds that you're talking about Yeah. 

Make it possible. Make it possible to go to those international conferences. Yeah. Make it possible for me to pay them. Yeah. To be totally honest with the funds that are [00:23:00] provided. Mm-hmm. I think the students who went to Costa Rica this past summer. I'm not gonna ask you to share dollar amounts. It's probably inappropriate, but I'll be inappropriate. 

I think they got $800 from the department, and I think the college matched up to 600 and then, because most of them, uh, at least nine of the 12 were first gen college students. Once the college identified them as first gen college students. I think it paid for the entire program. Like I just, it, it kept getting better and better. 

I did, yeah. I didn't know all the resources. Yeah. And the first time I met with the students after they applied, I'm like, so you probably need this much money. So, you know, look at your budget or talk to your parents or this or that. And then at the end of the day I'm like, okay, so we're paying you to go on this experience. 

Ayugi: Yes. 

Cougar: And not that we're wasting these dollars. Mm-hmm. We kind of are, when students don't apply, 

Ayugi: we when they don't apply. And I think from our [00:24:00] perspective, it's an investment in the students. Yeah. You know? And so what a missed opportunity. If someone's saying, I wanna invest in you, I wanna invest in you. 

And you know, you just kind of let it go. What a missed opportunity. Yeah. Um, it just, uh, as you were sharing that, I just thought of a, a group of students that went to Japan. Recently they went to Dr. Thon and they went to present their work. Um, and I mean, they got all these awards and, you know, we were able to support their going and attending this conference where they, um, presented their work, um, through their experiential learning funding. 

What an experience because they're going to put that on their resumes. And if I am somebody that's looking at, you know, environmental health, and I see the students has presented at this, you know, world renowned, um, uh, organization, I mean, yes, they stand out, they are going to get my attention over a student that doesn't have that. 

So, I mean, it's a real [00:25:00] opportunity for students to set themselves apart and BYU is investing. The students to allow them that opportunity. 

Cougar: Yeah. It, it builds so much confidence in the student too. I've, I've just seen these students I've worked with, they're a deer in the headlights at first, and then after a year or two just look in their eye. 

It's a little bit like you applying to be the, the CEO or the president and you're like, I'm 23, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna learn what I don't know. And um. You start to see that confidence in them and they see themselves as material as like, yeah. 

Ayugi: Isn't that such a beautiful process? 

Cougar: I'm ready for medical school. 

Yeah. I'm ready to just apply for a job that maybe, maybe I shouldn't, but I'm, I've got that confidence. 

Ayugi: Yes. Well, and, and I have material to speak about. 

Cougar: Yeah. 

Ayugi: You know, things that I've done, I've, I've accomplished, I've tried, I've failed, but I tried. 

Cougar: Yeah. You just gotta go. I mean, you are the perfect example of full send and that's the kind, [00:26:00] that's what my college students will call it. 

Like full send. You just go for it. Like I'm just, 

Ayugi: oh, is that part of the lingo these days? Yeah. Full send. 

Cougar: So Ayugi, you are the, the poster girl for full send. It's like, yeah, I'm just going for it. Like, let someone tell me No, that's fine. 

Ayugi: That's fine. And I always tell, I always tell my students, and this happens with students that are, um, applying for internships all the time because it just takes some time to land the perfect internship. 

And so, you know, you'll have some that maybe are applying for a couple months and they get discouraged and I always tell them, you know what, pick up the phone. Pick, pick 10 companies or 10 organizations that you are interested, that pick 10 organizations that you are interested in. And pick up the phone, call them, ask to talk to the HR person and tell them about you. 

Introduce yourself. Tell them what you bring to the table, and tell them you'd love to work with them in whatever semester it is. And you know, I always tell students the worst thing they're going to tell you is no, and that won't kill you. You'll just call the next one. Yeah. [00:27:00] You know? 

Cougar: Yeah. And if you don't call the answer's No. 

So. Exactly. Yeah. It can, it can only go up. It's all good. Let's talk about. And let's, let's just hit the rewind button here. You and I Ayugi, 'cause I think it was probably in July and the hallways were pretty quiet at that time. And we ran into each other and I think, uh, I had shared a book with you and you were giving me a book report essentially, and I definitely gave you an a plus for the book report. 

Uh, the book was called Of Boys and Men, and I think the author's name is Richard Reeves. I actually stumbled upon a presentation that he made at a national education conference when I was preparing for a class last winter. And, uh, he mentioned the book that was coming out shortly, so I pre-ordered it and it's a really quick read. 

Mm-hmm. If people are interested, and of course he's, if you want to go and he's on a million podcasts at this point, if you want kind of, uh. You know, the, the protein shake [00:28:00] version of the book. You can just hear him talk for an hour or so on a podcast. But the book was terrific. Um, I handed it to you, a feminist who's raising two young boys. 

Mm-hmm. 

Ayugi: And a strong-minded girl. 

Cougar: Yes. Yeah. To say the least, right? Mm-hmm. And I, I really enjoyed your perspective. So let, let's visit that a little bit and maybe to launch things. Uh, there's a quote from Richard Reeves that I'll share with you. Um, and I've essentially said the same thing many, many times. 

Um, in talking about my own marriage that I have a, I'm married to a strong woman, which I love, but she, it doesn't serve her for me to play small. 

Ayugi: Mm-hmm. 

Cougar: That she wants a strong husband. And together in strength, we lead our family together. In strength, we make decisions together in strength, we support each other. 

Mm-hmm. So I've, I've, I've thought about this concept so many times, but this quote [00:29:00] just, it just says it so much better than I've ever said it. He says a quote, A world of floundering men is unlikely to be a world of flourishing women. So there's our little starting point. We can jump off from there, but yes. 

Your, your thoughts on the book, your thoughts, uh, in raising two young boys mm-hmm. In your marriage. Mm-hmm. Just, just how, how this works and what, what is the future? What are the concerns you have, but what is the future for boys right now? 

Ayugi: Oh, this topic. It's one of my favorite topics to think about, to talk about right now. 

Um, I think anyone that knows me would classify me as no less than a feminist. Um, and just based on, you know, kind of the path that I've taken, um, I, I am, I am a strong woman who believes in my abilities and my capacity and, um. You know, I, I've gotten the support that I need to get here. It's [00:30:00] not, you know, not, not by myself. 

It has been with support. Um, and I'm a mother and I think that my thoughts on this, on this topic, perhaps 10 years ago would've been different, um, than, uh, they are now raising two boys and my girl. It's interesting because I, I'm so grateful for the opportunity to raise these boys that are so sweet and so kind, and. 

As I think about what the world is going to look like for them, I, I mean, just what you said, you know, that, that quote, it brings it in so well, we have to have flourishing young boys, young men, and, you know, eventually grown men. Um, but I, I, I love that quote a lot. I think the feminist movement, am I allowed to just give my opinions here? 

Yeah, of course. Okay. Um. The feminist movement was well intended. I, I think it was necessary, um, for some things to [00:31:00] change at that time, and it did, and it has continued to do what it was meant to do in supporting women opening up more doors for women. Uh, but I think the unintended consequence of the feminist movement and that focus on it was that men's health got neglected. 

Um, now. I say this knowing that this is kind of a dicey subject. Um, there are many feelings on it. Um, but I also want to preface that I am, like I said, a feminist with the best of them. And I wholeheartedly believe that women are capable and, um, you know, really should have the opportunities to go and be and do whatever it is that their hearts, their desires, their talents allow them to do. 

Um, but I. In a world where I'm a mother raising two young boys, um, I'm married to a strong man myself, and I just see that it's very, it's very unfortunate that this lack of investment in the health and [00:32:00] upbringing of young boys and young men, um, is leading us to this place where. I mean, there, there's, I, I forget the exact statistic, but one of my neighbors was sharing it with me and they were looking at the number of young men that are, um, living in their parents' basements and, uh, are unemployed, um, actually in the US over the last year or something. 

And it was remarkably high. I have to go back and look at that number, but it was remarkably high. And you know, on one hand it's like, okay, yeah, that's their, this agency. Right? But on the other hand, there's well. If we don't invest the right resources and time in preparing these young men to grow into. 

You know, grown strong men that are able to handle a strong woman, then it's a disservice to society because those men, young men sitting in their parents' basements, I mean, look, I mean, from an economical standpoint alone 

mm-hmm. 

That's a net loss. You know, those are people that could be productive in society, um, that could be moving society [00:33:00] forward that are suddenly taken outta the game. 

What a shame it is to not, you know, not, not invest and use that resource. 'cause it, they are a resource, you know? Um, but not only that, I, I see it and, you know, we were talking earlier about, uh, one of my girlfriends that I saw posting something, and it was a statistic on, you know, how young men are lagging behind and. 

She was sort of celebrating it and saying, oh yes, let's keep going girls. And I understand the sentiment of that. Um, I, I get the sentiment, but you know, I challenged this friend and I said, you know, at the end of the day you have, and this friend has a daughter. And I said, you know, you have a daughter. And so how does it serve your daughter when these men are just struggling? 

From a basic safety perspective, we do know that, you know, men that are not doing well there, there's a rise in [00:34:00] violence when that happens and it's frustration, it's a, the root is frustration. Mm-hmm. And that's, it's not to excuse that behavior 'cause violence is never acceptable, but it's also to step back and look at the bigger picture and understand that there, there are root causes to things. 

And if we. Don't invest in both genders. Both sexes, and we actually as a society, it's a net loss for society. Um, I could say all so many things about this topic, but um. Really at the core of it for me is that we have to kind of step back, see what's been done, which has been successful with the feminist movement, see, analyze what the unintended consequences have been, and then formulate a plan to fix it. 

Because if we don't fix it, I don't think we're heading the right direction. I mean, look at. This past election and seeing how young men voted and the statistics on young men and how, how they made their choices. And [00:35:00] you know, there's been analysis done on why they made those choices that they did. And I mean, it's really going back to a lot of hopelessness. 

Mm-hmm. Um, and I think anyone that acts from a place of hopelessness is not acting in the best interest of themselves and others. 

Cougar: Yeah. You, you are so articulate. I really, and I, I think that you're a hundred percent consistent with the sentiment that, that Richard Reeves communicates in the book. He's so clear. 

The whole first chapter, he clearly states, Hey, the work in helping girls and women is not over. And there's, there's still much to do. We've come a long way, and he is like, and. We're not there yet. Mm-hmm. But while we're engaged in that essential work, we do need to take one eye and look at the boys and we're, 'cause we're not serving the women in the way that we're educating and [00:36:00] preparing our boys for adult roles. 

And there's so many different factors. He really focuses on education. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm with my students right now reading The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Het and. There's a whole chapter on boys. Um, he really points to video games. Mm-hmm. Uh, and a loss of community. Mm-hmm. Like. In real life, face-to-face community. 

Yes. Um, he points to safety him so, uh, you know, well-intended parents who are overprotecting their boys mm-hmm. They're not having the experiences that they need to have. Mm-hmm. As far as group dynamics, as far as taking risks and falling off of swings and, you know, 

Ayugi: and that, that one's a tough one. 

Cougar: Taking care of, you know, skinned up knees. 

Yes. It's really tough as a parent. I've been there, 

Ayugi: but it's an important part of their development. Yeah. Really building up their confidence to know that yes, I can run. I mean, my, my son Kasai, he's, he's the one that's about to turn eight. Mm-hmm. He [00:37:00] loves to climb trees and it terrifies me every time. 

This last summer, I told myself that, you know what, I was not going to stop him. I was just gonna let him go until it was absolutely too dangerous. But, um. It's a beautiful process to see his confidence every time, kind of build up and build up and build up more. You could go further and further up and, you know, I mean, my, my heart was like all the way. 

It was. My heart dropped every time he did it, but it was something that I wanted to do. The other thing that we did this last summer was, uh, learn how to walk into a restaurant and order by himself. And I didn't need to go in. I could not believe how anxious that made me the anxious generation. Right? 

Cougar: Yeah. 

Ayugi: But I couldn't believe how anxious that made me, but he felt so, and I could see it in his face. He was so proud of himself. And I think those are little building blocks, the little building blocks for young men, I think for everyone. But in [00:38:00] this case, as we're focusing on the young men, they're building blocks that help them build their confidence to know that they can do, and we just need more of that. 

We need to let. Let boys be boys. I, this is not politically correct, but I, I am kind of going back to, you know, I'm, I'm kind of going back to the old ideas of saying, you know, let boys be boys. Let them run outside. Let them, let them get it out. They need it. You know, I think, um, and this is kind of going a little bit away from our conversation on this, but, you know, I, I forget what author it was that was suggesting. 

That perhaps young boys need to start school about a year, um, later than young girls. And just the, the, the needs are different. The preparedness is different. And that's not to say that one is better or stronger than the other, but it is to say that developmentally, biologically there are some needs that young boys have that young girls don't. 

And and young girls have their [00:39:00] needs that, you know, the young boys don't. And so if we. If we were to invest in those specific needs, I think in the end, it serves society so much more to have well adjusted and capable young men and young women, um, than to, you know, leave one behind and, uh, yeah, 

Cougar: yeah, no, that, that's a topic in the book. 

Uh, starting boys 12 to 18 months later in school. Um, just, just from a cognitive development standpoint, it appears they're not quite ready to sit in a desk and to, to learn how to read at that point. Mm-hmm. But some more experiential learning. Mm-hmm. Uh, it probably if you, if you can. Have them do things outside and interacting and with a group and team building, and then wait a year to 18 months and then sit 'em in that desk. 

Ayugi: Mm-hmm. 

Cougar: Now they're ready. So instead we're just, teachers are frustrated, parents are frustrated. And the student, the young boy is frustrated. Yeah. 'cause we're just, we're just a [00:40:00] little too early on some of that. 

Ayugi: A little too early this, 

Cougar: and then there's this, this approach to education that we have in the United States, which we're, we don't see this in Western Europe and in Scandinavia, but it's, uh, it's the same track K through 12 for everyone. 

Mm-hmm. And I, I appreciate that we've adjusted and we've focused on helping. Our daughters helping them realize, no, you're good at math too. Mm-hmm. And you can interest STEM field too. Mm-hmm. And we've, we've, we've made the adjustments and there's, there's still work to do as Richard Reeves points out. Yes. 

But we've made some adjustments that have actually really paid off. Might we look at, uh, returning to a vocational school setting? I know when I was in high school in the eighties, our school district, which is a very large school district outside of Seattle, we did have a vocational school and then we kinda went away from that across the country. 

We went away from that because, uh, that's, that's demeaning to boys and men and we need them to go [00:41:00] into STEM as well. And so it. More opportunities as a, as a recovering high school teacher, we need more opportunities, more avenues. We should increase all of those options. 

Ayugi: Yeah. So I, I wonder if that could start even earlier. 

Um, so like my son, Kasai, we were out of the country at the time when he started going to school, but we did a Waldorf system and the whole idea behind it is really inter learning through interacting with nature. And so he was in the mud, he was, I mean, they were. Monkey bar, they were just kind of going, running wild, to say the least. 

And you know, something like, um, as they, you know, at, at the school, it was new to me, but they didn't focus on reading and writing up until the second grade. And the reason that they did that was they, they felt that developmentally students would actually pick that up much faster at that age because they were prepared for it. 

And so I asked, so what are you gonna do to prepare them? And so they did sewing. All the kids, [00:42:00] the boys and the girls would sew. And the idea was that it would develop the muscles in their hands to get them ready to write. And I thought that was remarkable. And I don't know, to me it's just like, that is education. 

That is, they did all the things they needed to do to be prepared. And you know, I, I see the results of that. 'cause my son's a second grader and he's doing fourth grade level math. He's. I mean, he, he's excelling. Um, and I really credit that method because we didn't rush him into anything. It was just, um, you know, kind of playing in nature and figuring out how to relate with people, with others, you know, how to play with others. 

Oh, that kid doesn't like when I put the mud on him. That's an important thing to know. Boundaries, you know, you learn about personal space. But, um, anyway, I could, I could talk, this is another, um. Soapbox of mine about just the education system. Um, but I think that there's ways still that. Even with a different education system [00:43:00] that we could create those opportunities for, um, young boys in particular, since we're focusing on them right now. 

Um, you know, let let them run. Let them go, let them, you know, and I think also the play with their fathers is really important. Let them have that as if the father's in the home, let them have that. I, I understand that there's situations where that's not a possibility and um, you know, the hope is that there's somebody in the family that steps up. 

I think elder. Oh, president Oaks now, um, spoke about that last conference and he talked about his grandfather. And you know what a blessing it is to have all these figures in society that can step up to the plate when, when needed. Um, but all those things are really important I think for, uh, getting boys to be well adjusted. 

And I, I, I, I'm careful in this conversation to, to note that it's not that we're forgetting about the girls. Um, it's just that right now. The house that's burning right now that we're looking at is the [00:44:00] boys. And yes. Do we wanna save all the houses? Absolutely. But the fire's right there, and we need to put out that fire before the house crashes down. 

Cougar: Oh, amen. It, it's, it's not a zero sum game. We're gonna continue to help our daughters and also look at the unique needs, uh, and the unique challenges that boys are facing right now, um, and strong parenting. And I, I love that you brought up, sometimes you don't have that, that female or male role model in the home. 

Mm-hmm. But extended family community, this is where we go back to the old adage, it takes a village. Yeah. Uh, the research on what we used to call at risk students, students that we would write off by the eighth or ninth grade because there are three, three grade levels behind on reading, starting to experiment with drugs and like. 

All, you know, skipping school, all, all sorts of challenges. Um, the research on that is pretty clear [00:45:00] now that we've been writing kids off a little too early. And if I think back to some of the kids I grew up with and I was like, oh my goodness, why are they not coming to school where the ninth grade, they've dropped out, or they're drinking alcohol or they're doing this, or. 

Now I look at those guys, you can find 'em on social media that that's one of the benefits of social media. They're doing great. Mm-hmm. Like we give up on people a little too soon as parents, as educators, maybe as society. So to hang in there, but I think I, what I hear you explaining is there might be some levers that we can pull early on. 

Talking early childhood education. Mm-hmm. And maybe some approaches to parenting and how we talk. We've changed how we talk to our daughters and we can change a little bit how we talk to our sons as well and have expectations. Mm-hmm. That, that, you know, I want you to be a rough and tumble boy and go outside and work off that energy. 

Mm-hmm. But we're also gonna talk about how you speak to your mom. 

Ayugi: Yes. 

Cougar: And how you respect girls and how you [00:46:00] prioritize. Actually doing your homework and reading and being kind and thoughtful and like all of that is doable. Mm-hmm. It is strong parenting. 

Ayugi: Yeah. 

Cougar: And, and the impact, the influence of the village, I think is tremendous. 

It gives me hope even though I feel like we're in, like you said, the house is on fire right now. 

Ayugi: The house is on fire, but it doesn't mean that we can't put out the fire. 

Cougar: I'm hopeful we can,, 

Ayugi: we can put out the fire. And I always tell my son, you know, we, we do affirmations every morning and I say, you are strong and you are gentle. 

Because those two can exist together and I need them to, we as a society need those two exist together. We want strong men and we want thoughtful, kind men as well. And you know, one doesn't need to, to kind of trump the other. 

Cougar: Yeah. Brings us full circle. Mm-hmm. That's what every strong woman wants in a partner, and that's what every strong man deserves. 

And a partner to as a strong woman. 

Ayugi: Yes. I love that. Yeah. 

Cougar: Oh my goodness. 

Ayugi: One of my favorite conversations. I, I love talking about this stuff. 

Cougar: This is great stuff. [00:47:00] I, this is exactly what I was hoping we'd be able to do. Um, we're up against it on time and I I would love to bring you back 'cause there's so much more we could talk about. 

You are the perfect example of a strong woman who's raising strong. Compassionate and thoughtful boys 

Ayugi: and married to one. And yes, I would not, 

Cougar: your husband's amazing, 

Ayugi: would not be able to do anything I do without his support. Not amazing. You know, I'm in class and he's making dinner and it's, and he goes out to board meetings and he does great there, and I'm like, this is, this is great. 

I mean, and we're figuring it out, you know? Yeah. Because a lot of this stuff has not been modeled. I, I don't think it's been long enough for it to be modeled, and so we're figuring it out. I think. It's important for young couples to know it's okay to be figuring it out, and sometimes you stumble and you'll fall a little bit, but you just get back up and you figure out what works for both of you to be strong together. 

Cougar: Love it. One day at a time, you keep [00:48:00] checking in with each other, and sometimes you have to say no to additional opportunities. I, I like the way you said it. It was at that time of my life, it wasn't the right thing to do. Doesn't mean it's not ever gonna be the right thing to do, but timing is everything. 

And there's such a give and take. Yes. In a partnership, in a family. And um, yeah. Thank you for modeling all of that for our students. 

Ayugi: Oh, well thank you. Amazing. Thank you for the opportunity to, to be here today and to. Get to have a good conversation. 

Cougar: Well, our listeners are gonna want more. I know that. So, uh, we'll, we'll call you back, get you on the schedule again. 

But thank you Ayugi, thanks for, uh, this discussion today and all the best. 

Ayugi: Thank you. Thanks for having me. 

Cougar: Thank you for joining us today. Catch us on our next episode, and don't forget to subscribe to Future Y Health episodes.