In this enlightening episode, Kaleem and Rick engage in a captivating conversation with the remarkable Mike Adams, the co-founder of Grain. Together, they embark on a voyage through Mike's diverse experiences encompassing remote work, entrepreneurship, and the ever-changing realm of work structures. With utmost transparency, Mike divulges his personal journey and the continuous evolution of his viewpoint regarding remote work.
Mike begins with an interesting paradox: despite leading a fully remote company, he initially disliked remote work. He expressed missing the energy, camaraderie, and seamless collaboration that in-person work provides. However, he also acknowledged the objective performance improvements his team experienced in a remote setup. This contrast between his personal preferences and his team's needs became a pivotal factor in his mindset. However, he highlights the shifting dynamics within his team as their personal preferences were evolving, serving as a driving force behind the changing work arrangements at Grain.
Responding to a question about advice for CEOs resistant to remote work, Mike underscores the significance of clear communication and expectation setting. He references companies like Notion and hedge funds, which were upfront about their return-to-office plans, eliminating ambiguity. Mike believes that many challenges faced by companies during remote work transitions stem from a lack of open dialogue and miscommunication.
Mike stresses the need for CEOs to engage in honest conversations with their teams, comprehend their preferences, and work towards a compromise. In his view, transparency and compromise are essential for a successful transition to new work arrangements, whether hybrid or fully remote. Our guest emphasizes the significance of trust, open communication, and a recognition of the changing work environment. Mike Adams' journey as an entrepreneur and evolving perspective on remote work serves as a valuable guide for organizations navigating the ever-changing landscape of work arrangements.
Tune in to this interesting interview and get invaluable insights into the challenges and dynamics of remote work, the importance of trust and clear communication, and the evolving landscape of work arrangements in the modern world. Definitely a must-listen for those navigating the remote work landscape!
Learn More About Mike:
In this enlightening episode, Kaleem and Rick engage in a captivating conversation with the remarkable Mike Adams, the co-founder of Grain. Together, they embark on a voyage through Mike's diverse experiences encompassing remote work, entrepreneurship, and the ever-changing realm of work structures. With utmost transparency, Mike divulges his personal journey and the continuous evolution of his viewpoint regarding remote work.
Mike begins with an interesting paradox: despite leading a fully remote company, he initially disliked remote work. He expressed missing the energy, camaraderie, and seamless collaboration that in-person work provides. However, he also acknowledged the objective performance improvements his team experienced in a remote setup. This contrast between his personal preferences and his team's needs became a pivotal factor in his mindset. However, he highlights the shifting dynamics within his team as their personal preferences were evolving, serving as a driving force behind the changing work arrangements at Grain.
Responding to a question about advice for CEOs resistant to remote work, Mike underscores the significance of clear communication and expectation setting. He references companies like Notion and hedge funds, which were upfront about their return-to-office plans, eliminating ambiguity. Mike believes that many challenges faced by companies during remote work transitions stem from a lack of open dialogue and miscommunication.
Mike stresses the need for CEOs to engage in honest conversations with their teams, comprehend their preferences, and work towards a compromise. In his view, transparency and compromise are essential for a successful transition to new work arrangements, whether hybrid or fully remote. Our guest emphasizes the significance of trust, open communication, and a recognition of the changing work environment. Mike Adams' journey as an entrepreneur and evolving perspective on remote work serves as a valuable guide for organizations navigating the ever-changing landscape of work arrangements.
Tune in to this interesting interview and get invaluable insights into the challenges and dynamics of remote work, the importance of trust and clear communication, and the evolving landscape of work arrangements in the modern world. Definitely a must-listen for those navigating the remote work landscape!
Learn More About Mike:
I've done one full Ironman. I competed in the Ironman World Championship, actually.
Kaleem:Wow. Wow.
Rick:We are way out of our league.
Kaleem:way out of a league, bro. And has competed in the what? Iron Man World Championship.
Mike:Yeah, there's a bit of a caveat to that that I didn't necessarily like, qualify or earn my spot, but I competed in it.
Rick:Oh wow. That's even more courageous.
Mike:It took me nearly 14 hours, but I did finish.
Rick:Oh, wow. I need to know more about that.
Kaleem:yeah. Yeah. About the Ironman, competitions? So it's a combination of what?
Mike:A full Ironman distance is a 2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, and then a full marathon after all that. yeah. Oh yeah. All in one go.
Kaleem:This is all in,
Mike:Yeah. You start at the crack of dawn and you finish in the dark.
Rick:I would prefer at least a couple of months in between those events. But hey, that's just me.
Mike:Yeah, man. It was, uh, two years of training and uh, I loved every second of it except for the parts I didn't love
Rick:I loved all of it except for the parts that sucked.
Mike:exactly. I loved every bit of it except for the parts I hated.
Rick:Welcome back to Remotely Won. I am your co-host Rick Haney, joined by my esteemed colleague and co-host Kaleem Clarkson. What's going on man?
Kaleem:Oh, you're looking great today, baby. Look at those baby blue
Rick:Hey, look at him. Just look,
Kaleem:I mean, you look wonderful, man. We're just sitting in the studio. I can't complain, man. I can't complain. And And there's no leaf blowers, so we'll see. But I can't
Rick:we'll we'll
Kaleem:we'll see.
Rick:We'll find out. Hey everybody. Glad to have you back since you know how to find us now, do us a huge favor. Go to rate this podcast.com/remotely one. Just leave us a review. Again, that's rate this podcast.com/remotely one. If you could do that for us, we would be ever so thankful. Since 2015, remotely one is one of the largest communities of remote work professionals with over 3000 Slack members and 5,000 email subscribers. Holy shit. We're on the way, man.
Kaleem:We did it. We passed 3000.
Rick:It's free to join, so go ahead, check it out remotely. one.com. With that outta the way. Kaleem, give us a tease or two about today's guest.
Kaleem:Oh bro. Another moment where I'm nervous, you know, bubble got level nervous. Yes. You know, our guest today just done so many things. Cool person, but intimidating. I mean, look at him. Just, I'm nervous just looking at him in the camera. So let's see, some of the things our guest has done, just a few things to make me feel not so great about what I'm doing, but here we go. First off, he's a graduate of B Y U, so that he just, he just starts it
Rick:Boom. Right out of the gate.
Kaleem:right outta the gate. Yes. Guest, what's B'S mascot? Do they even have one?
Mike:So Cougars.
Kaleem:Go Cougars. you, you, um, he's been a guest lecturer at Stanford University. He is a former software engineer, turned entrepreneur three times. Rick. Three times,
Rick:three times founder,
Kaleem:yep. Yep. He is an avid fitness junkie. And he has participated in the Iron Man World Championship. Can you imagine that, bro? Can you
Rick:no. no. Actually I cannot, I don't even want to think about it.
Kaleem:guest, what was your time? Do you remember your time? Guest?
Mike:Just shy of 14 hours, which is not good. Let's be clear.
Kaleem:Yo. Yo,
Rick:No, it's great.
Mike:It finished?
Kaleem:It's pretty great. Rick, what do you think? That's 30 hours better than us probably.
Rick:Oh, at the very least. At the
Mike:Well, they give you, they gave you 17 hours to finish, so I had a little buffer at least.
Kaleem:That's amazing. That's amazing. Rick, our guest, he is the co-founder of Grain, which is an app where you can create highlights of your Zoom meetings. And they have raised, let's see, I think they've raised over 20 million in funding.
Rick:oh, we gotta hear more about this.
Kaleem:Yes.
Rick:amazing.
Kaleem:Listeners and viewers, please give a warm welcome to Mike Adams. Woo. Let's go. It's not Mike Green Kaleem. It's Mike Adams baby. Let's go.
Mike:One in the same. One in the same.
Kaleem:thanks for joining us, bro.
Mike:Yeah. Glad to be here.
Rick:Yeah, we, we appreciate you tolerating us already. So we're off to a great start.
Mike:It's, it, it's, uh, it's, it's a hot start and I'm loving it.
Rick:Oh, this is great. This is great. before we begin, I always have to know, like, you know, you've had an amazing career so far. You've done a lot of things. You've met with a lot of people. Do you recall. A certain moment or a period in time that you just kind of had this aha moment and you knew that you were gonna be doing what you're doing now.
Mike:I mean, I definitely remember being a teenager and thinking like, I don't want a boss. And my dad like built houses for a living and owned his own company. And, I have like a distinct memory of that when I was like 14. But, you know, I graduated from college and I got a boss. I got a job that came with a boss. And, I think in the end I've learned that that whole thing is just a myth. You always have a boss, whether it's an investor or your partners or whoever it is. Like there's always that idea of no boss is totally a myth, but. I've always kind of had that, I would say feeling that I wanted to create and build something that was from scratch and kind of uniquely mine or my idea. And, I feel like I started two companies with other people, that were really their idea. And then, that led me to kind of the insight that was grain, that kind of where I gotta be the founder, c e o on the third company I started. And so, It's been a quite the journey. You learn something along the way every time and you can't really predict it. It's a lot of zigs and zags, but I would say directionally unsurprising from just kind of like what I've always wanted it to be. So, it's a lot harder than I always thought it would be though. There's a lot less, glory and a lot more pain.
Rick:It's a grind, right?
Mike:Mm-hmm.
Kaleem:You've heard that so many times. So back to grain. Can you tell our listeners and viewers what is Grain specifically and how do you conceptualize the idea when did it hit you?
Mike:Yeah, totally. So Grain is a, a meeting, recording, transcription, and note taking service, um, increasingly powered by AI that you can actually program yourself. You can write your own prompts and create your own templates to get the AI to output the information from your meetings in the exact format you want, and then automatically synchronize it to the tools where you want it to go. So, what I just pitched is like probably three quarters of the way, you know, of what I thought it would be when I started it. But a lot has changed and we can talk about that. But the origin of the company, of where it came from was, in 2016, I co-founded a company called Mission U. We were the one of the very first like programming. We taught data analytics and actually did a lot of emotional intelligence. It's a one year alternative to college on income sharing agreements, and so, If you're familiar with, Lambda School that, recently changed their name to Bloom Tech, they kind of came up big about a year after we sold to WeWork. So, my whole premise was a recognition that if we were going to, you know, justify our venture scale, we'd raise like$12 million in funding from First Round Capital and great investors that we needed to provide an offering that scaled. And obviously education is not, you know, the a, especially when it's tied to outcomes. Because the company didn't make any money unless the student got a job and paid a portion of that income for three years. It has to work and it has to be good, but it's not necessarily scalable. And so because everything was happening in a Zoom classroom, I recognized that that was all unstructured data that could be leveraged and utilized to help us to try to, you know, reach this ambition of scaling. Ultimately we didn't reach the ambition of scaling. For various reasons, but the main one is this opportunity from WeWork, came up. And when that happened, I said, you know what? I think this software we've been building for ourselves to record and manage, it's actually Zoom did all the recording, but we would just like pull it off the a p i and we'd manage the access. And the content of those recordings, that that was going to be a need much bigger than the school that we had, you know, built it for. And so that's kind of where the idea of grain came from. We started it in 2018. I started it with my brother and a long time friend, um, of 10 years from San Francisco. I. And, uh, yeah, it's just, it's kind of grown and evolved a lot since then. It took us about a year to figure out exactly what the product was. We built a version through to raise money on it through that version of way started over again. And then I'd say we're now about three years into, you know, building on top of the foundation that is still currently the same core product.
Kaleem:Interesting. Interesting. So I invited you on the show, Mike, because a, I think we've presented a long time ago on a panel together. We had a couple cool conversations.
Mike:That was fun.
Kaleem:guy, and plus you got me motivated to get on that Strava app and get my ass going. So I haven't been on there lately, but, um,
Mike:Me neither.
Kaleem:we'll get back on there, Mike. We'll get back on there. 2024, I'm, I'm gonna do it, the reason why I invited you on the show is, you know, you publicly, have said like, you know, you aren't a big fan of remote work and in May of 2022, You posted it on LinkedIn and I wanna just quote what you posted, a little, a little snippet from your post. And actually before I read that, do you remember like, it's got nine over 9,000 comments. I read, um, like over 300 shares. Any chance, you know how many impressions you got?
Mike:it's like nearly 2 million, which is just kind of wild that these ramblings in my brain got that many eyeballs.
Rick:insane.
Kaleem:2 million impressions. You hear that listeners? So share your feelings, share your thoughts.'cause people wanna listen. So I'm gonna quote what you posted in May of 22. And I quote confession. I lead a fully remote company but hate fully remote work. I miss the same energy. The comradery, the ease of collaboration, and I especially miss the casual taco truck combos. But I can also see objectively our team is better fully remote. The way my team works best isn't about what's best for me. Holy shit.
Rick:statement. That is a powerful statement.
Kaleem:Not one piece of news coverage, enough coverage, obviously on the post. I feel like this post should be in every single CEO's freaking notebook, handbook, whatever they're gonna read. It should, especially that last sentence, the way my team works best isn't about what's best for me. Can you first tell us what motivated you to make and post that message, Mike?
Mike:I mean, a lot of the best writing I've read or done myself is just an act of creative exploration to explore an idea,
Kaleem:Hmm.
Mike:and I knew that that lead statement of I lead a fully remote company, but hatefully remote work is just true. And I needed to figure out exactly like why and what to do about it. And so it was in the act of kind of writing this post that I kind of really figured that out. I would say I didn't lead, when I wrote those first words and explored this problem, I didn't actually know that that was going to be the conclusion and the kind of bullet point I takeaway of the post. I really didn't, I had kind of figured that out as in the act of writing it. And it was really this kind of act of exploration for me about like, what's going on in my brain and in my world, and then what does that actually mean for the company? And what was crazy is after I posted that, that word hate about fully remote work, the word hate didn't really apply that much anymore.'cause I'd kind of. Of sorted it out and I figured it out and made peace with it in a way that it was like, you know what? Like I don't prefer it, you know, but I ultimately can embrace that there are the benefits that outweigh the negatives. For this moment and this environment, I'm not committed to being a fully remote company forever, but certainly our engineering team will stay fully remote forever. And I would say that it was in the act of kind of like writing and exploring it, that we've been able to, I would say, be a better remote team because it's embraced that it is, you know, the best for this team at this time. And, I am ultimately glad that I'd spent the time to ride it all out.'cause I don't, I, I think otherwise it would've just kind of been this garble of thoughts and emotion in my head.
Rick:Sure.
Kaleem:So. When you were writing the Post, you were doing a self, evaluation, kind of like a self-reflection in a way. And when you read the post, you talk about the challenges that you personally had. Could you just talk about, like, as you were writing, could you talk about the challenges that you were personally having, and then what was it that was the light bulb that said, whoa, whoa, wait. I'm having this challenge, and I think you even added some statistics in there about what your team wants. So can you talk a little bit about what you were feeling and then what was it? Was it the data? Like what was it that made you say, Hey look, I'm gonna do what they want to do, not what I want them to do.
Mike:You know, it's been interesting and it's, and I would say it's still true, right? So like the things I disliked about Remote, work as forced by Covid when you like, couldn't be in person. still dislike, to this day, like I still, they're, they're challenges. I think most people dislike them. You know, I list them out in the post. And circumstances change to where, when I wrote that post, it was 11 months ago. I was working right here every day, and now I get on a plane and fly to Provo, Utah where my business partner Jeff is, and we're hiring two people that are gonna come into an office two days a week, three days a week. I'm probably gonna hire two or three more people that are gonna come into an office and we're going to like reestablish a, I would say. Uh, kind of a hybrid situation to where our engineering team will always stay full of remote. It was fully remote well before Covid. You know, most of our engineers are in Europe and African time zones, so we have a, I would say a very spread remote team. But the thing that a lot of it is that it's changed in terms of that, that core premise of what I said in the post about what the team wants. What the team wants has been changing and that is what's driving this change and it's not me dictating that it has to be a certain way in order for you to work here. It's been interesting as we've hired new folks into roles, they want to come into the office. They don't wanna come in every day. They want to come in, you know, two, maybe three days a week. And those who don't want to or can't, that's fine. Right? It's established, there's trust and it, and it works. And so it's been really interesting to kind of use that premise of like, what does the team want? What is best for everybody. Not just what's best for me. I know what's best for me. It's not just that I can like, you know, be there and overseer and look over. I think that we've overcome that in terms of the, the, the, um, it's just baked into the trust of how we operate. But it's, for me, I just know I'm happier. I'm more charismatic, I'm more interested, I'm more energetic. There's just like a psychological boost that I get from being around people. So I get on a plane and I fly to, where the people are and it works great. You know, it's definitely tougher on my wife than it is on me. and there's kind of this like, feeling of like, we could move if it becomes, too bad. But, we make it work And that's where our team is at now. And I think that that's the conversation that's not really happening.'cause it's very dictated. And I think that's the thing that got the reaction to the post is it's what the c e o wants, it's what the executive team wants. And I still, even though things are changing for us, I still believe that it's being driven by this realization I had in writing that post that it's like, what's best for the team now? And it's not necessarily exactly what the c e o, you know, or the executives want it to be.
Kaleem:geez.
Rick:I mean, honestly, you pretty much just answered my follow-up question to that. But say I'm a, I'm A C E O, who is extremely resistant to remote work, and I want everybody, I want asses and chairs. I want everybody here where I can see them. Based on your individual growth and your experience, is there any particular advice you would give to me as a fellow, c e o?
Mike:You know, I was at Notion HQ yesterday. I. And I was talking to one of the people on the growth team that I've known for a few years. I actually met him in a, uh, I don't know if you remember or ever took a, a Lyft line. I don't think they do'em anymore. But you'd like share a Lyft or an Uber with other people if you're like, kind of going long haul. So
Kaleem:it cheaper.
Mike:yeah, it's cheaper. And so I shared a lift with this person and, that's how I, I met him and he's awesome. And so he works at Notion Now and I was over at their HQ just catching up with him, and I really respected the way that Notion's handled it. Ultimately, from the very beginning, their c e o Ivan said, this is a temporary thing. We are coming back into the office. And I think that's really the problem that people are having now is that lack of clarity. Upfront. I have another friend, um, uh, is my brother-in-law who works at a hedge fund, and they were extremely clear. We are coming back into the office. We are coming back into the office. I think where the tension is, is when there was that ambiguity because the employees have been able to make a clear and conscious choice in the time since. Of like, I am, you know, going to, there, there is an expectation here associated with this job of, of me going back into an office.'cause that's the way that it was before. And I think like for Grain, for example, I didn't set that expectation of us going back to the office. It was implied. And that, that's the thing I had to sort out. And I think that's the work that a lot of leaders need to do is to take some ownership, accountability. Like, did you set that clear expectation upfront? That we are going back to be this way.'cause that's how it was before and that's the way that it has to be for this company because that's the way that it could dictate. Then that makes it a lot easier. Frankly. That makes it clear and I'd say a lot more fair. And from my understanding of the conversation yesterday, notion has basically everybody goes into an office at least three days a week in one of the various locations around the world. They have 600 employees. But I think that the real challenge is these companies where it's left ambiguous. Or where it was like kind of baked in and almost an expectation that they'd be fully remote and now they've switched. And that's a really, really tough thing to do. And I think that if that's what you're going to do, I think that the key has to be an honest conversation about what is preferred by the c e o or the leadership and then what is preferred by the workforce and the people. And find an actual, like, have an open conversation, find an actual compromise. And frankly, that's where we've landed with gran. And I feel really good about it because it's been this kind of, I vocalize that need after that post of like, I don't like remote work. I don't like working in my house five days a week, especially in the summertime when my kids are home. They went back to school on Tuesday. And I'm a much like happier work from home employee as a result. But like it just has to be a dialogue. And I think that's the resistance and that's the feeling and that's the frustration and the root of it that's happening I think in this conversation is this. Lack of conversation and there's a certain company size where that becomes a lot more difficult and I get it, but I do think it's really rooted in a lack of clear communication and expectation setting up front that people are frustrated about.
Kaleem:You know, you mentioned something earlier that's fascinating where you're talking about trust. Trust is really important here. The challenges that I'm noticing, so let's just talk about a company that, that wasn't very clear about what was gonna happen. You work for about a year and a half and you're still productive, right? Things are still happening, but, you know, the c e O says, Hey, we're going back to the. Office actually, let's just make, pretend that it's a situation when they said, yes, we are coming back after the pandemic, and they were very clear. How do you kind of, engage in trusting your employer when you've proven over a year that we're productive? And then when they say, well, we're bringing back to the office, there is nothing. That supports, or you don't even articulate the reasons why.
Mike:Mm.
Kaleem:To me, that seems like that's where a lot of a, you know, yes, there's tension on both sides, but to me that's where the, the real heavy tension is. So what would you kind of advise to leaders that are just gonna say, Hey, we're coming back to the office. I told you before, I don't care how productive you were. What would you kind of advise in that situation? Like, how do you manage that? You know?
Mike:You know, I think, I have two comments. One is that most companies I've seen that have, they're in the, in the crossfire of the conversation. I would, number one, recognize how the situation is different now than it was before.'cause it probably is,'cause even what I'm talking about with like notion, for example, I believe they were like five days a week in person before, and now they're like two, maybe three. That's a fundamental shift from the way that it was before. And so there is a recognition and a lot of times it's like, man, I, but I really liked it being fully, or I have to like relocate or whatever it may be like there is more flexibility now than there was before in most cases. So if that is the case, I would. It's easy for us to, you know, have this kind of like loss aversion and feel like re-anchor to like whatever it is that we want. But I think it is important to remember how different it is from before, if at all. And in most cases I think it is different than before. So that can just like, help psychologically with a worker to recognize that they do have that freedom and they do have that more trust than there was before. And we actually are in a net, net better place off. So that's number one. Number two I would say is like, There might just be a mismatch and that can be a catalyst to move on. I know a lot of companies are using the return to office as a forcing function to get people to quit instead of laying them off. I think it's, disingenuous. I don't support that. I personally don't want to lead that way. We haven't done that at Grain. I won't do that at Grain. And that's probably a big part of the feeling of frustration, rightfully so on the employee side because it's kind of a disingenuous, it's not kind of, it's expl explicitly a disingenuous reason, but I think it's important to recognize that that is the signal that the company is sending about the action they actually want to take. And it might not necessarily be what the surface of it looks like. And so as an employee, you always have. That agency and that Right. To recognize that you can, you know, take your talents to Southeasts as, as LeBron says, you know, like there is, there, it, it's it that empowerment, just like an employer can choose, you know, what happens from the employee relationship. The employee has that same right. And we do live in a new and open world and you might love those coworkers or those relationships, but maybe it's been two years, three years, four years. And most employees usually stay at a company between, you know, 18 to 24 months. And so it could just be one of those, you know, catalysts for change to find that environment that is actually, you know, going to be more conductive to what you as an employee wants. And so I think that ultimately this return to office is kind of a catalyst for change. And I think most of the time change is good. And I think the emotion that comes up with it is that kind of, I don't know, that disingenuousness or that unfairness or whatever else it may be, and I've learned through 10 years of therapy that a lot of times you just kind of have to like talk it out and really understand what's happening and then you can process. And a lot of times those emotions go away and you can end up having a mindset to where it's like, You know, kind of viewed as an opportunity and a good thing. And I think that that's true from both the employer and the employee side when it's, done Right. And there's honest communication about the reasons.
Kaleem:That was interesting because for me, I think it's a pretty simple answer for leaders. Just tell the truth. like it's not about the culture'cause you weren't measuring the culture before. It's not about any of the reasons that people are talking about. Just say why you want that to be. If you're like, I want to be able to see my employees and I want to be able to see that they're working. Say it. If you have a really expensive office that you just built Salesforce, Salesforce, right? And you just spent a billion dollars on it, and you have stock shareholders, and you have all these things, these external pressures that are, you know, requiring you to take more advantage of your investment because hey, no one wants to see their commercial investment drop. Say that shit, man. Just say it like, be honest. Don't be like, oh, well, we just think it's better, especially when you don't have data on it. So for me, I just kind of feel like it's not that complicated where all adults just come out and say why the reason is versus trying to do all this backtrack and shit, you know what I mean? It just doesn't feel, it doesn't feel genuine. Right. Like Salesforce buys Slack, Slack's huge from being remote. They, and then they're just like, everybody come back to the office. We're done with the, you know, Slack future form. Just say why, you know, say the reason. So I just kind of feel like, um, There's just too much fluff in these returns, you know?
Rick:Yeah, I mean one thing that has come up several times in the last several moments is knowing what the employees want. So I'm just curious, has grain taken any specific steps to make sure that the employees are happy with the remote employee experience and if not, what have you done to address those concerns?
Mike:There's a distinction as well between what people want and what's actually best. Right. And to kale's point, that coercion or that manipulation of being told what's best for me and when I don't agree is what is so off-putting for folks, it's like, no, it's not best for me'cause I have to pick up my kids. I have to do X and Y and Z and I have a bigger life than work, et cetera. And so it's not best. So ultimately it comes down to a conversation. Like there has to be a conversation that has to be a two-way street. And that takes time. And the larger the company, the harder it is to understand the individual circumstances of what's best for everybody. So you have to create, you know, proxies for that surveys and ultimately you're not going to like, come to a conclusion. It's impossible. The larger the company gets to get to a conclusion of what's best for everybody. But that's how a lot of organizations in society work of what's best for, you know, we use this proxy of the majority or as many people as possible, or the maximal amount. And I think that that's probably the best that can be done. But I. Even if as an employee, I don't necessarily get what's best for me or what I think I want, if I've had a honest, genuine conversation and I feel like there's been a dialogue and that there's been a process that feels like reasonable and fair and democratic, that like I actually have a voice, then I can deal with an outcome that's different than what I want or what's even best for me because it wasn't. Dictated to me. It wasn't done in spite of me and in spite of what I think is best. And I feel like in corporate environments it's so easy and I have the luxury of having a small team. We only have 25 people. So like it's easy to have conversations left with everybody and a lot of times the, I you don't even have to have the conversation.'cause I'm not asking, you know, the majority of our team is, half of our team is engineers that work and live remotely in like completely different time zones. And there's just no world in which I'd ever dream for to require them to like, you know, move to the us. And, but I do think that like the core there is just that recognition that it doesn't necessarily have to be what's best for everybody. There just has to be a recognition of like, participation and communication around these deeds. And then I think a lot of those individual things can be accounted for once that conversation has taken place. But it was just the blanket mandate. That's what. I think leaves people with a bitter taste in their mouth. And I think, unfortunately, at least from my casual observation, that's the majority of the communication I'm seeing. But again, a lot of times these are huge companies and it, it becomes more difficult to do it that ideal way the larger the company gets.
Kaleem:Yeah, you absolutely hit it on the head. You know, the conversation sounds a lot different when you're like a, everyone must return to the office starting on Monday, four days a week, versus, hey, We collected this data, we've had town halls. Here's the data. X percentage of you want to work remotely, X percentage of you don't. Um, hey, we've heard you, but unfortunately we just built this brand new building, right? And you know, we are a leader. In our community and downtown is depending on us some way, you know, and we want to have that vibrant energy and we want that vibrant energy to be available for our new workers. So that's why we're asking people to come into the office. That sounds way different than you're coming into the office five days a week, you know? So you're absolutely right. The conversation and then, you know, having some sort of not necessarily Yeah. Data, but then a, a purpose like, we're doing this because not, we're just doing this. So anyway, I I appreciate that answer, man. I'm right
Rick:Mm, very insightful. So Mike. Could you do us a favor and share with us a story that you found inspirational, comical, even something that happened while you were working remotely that you'll absolutely never forget?
Mike:Okay, so I have a grain clip'cause we create a highlight clips for this story. Um, I was actually in our empty office when this happened. I was, needed to get out my house and San Francisco is, you know, 20. I don't live in San Francisco area even anymore, but, This is in a month and a half before I moved. So I'm up in the office by myself. Everybody else is fully remote and we're having our like, leadership meeting and in the middle of the leadership meeting. Um, it just had started and we're just kind of, you know, just small talk, catching up. And in the, you know, one of the squares in the Zoom, our head of engineering just literally blip disappeared. He was there, he kind of like, we didn't really notice that he froze and then all of a sudden everything else is the same and he was gone. And so then the rest of us were all like, what in the world like just happened? Because normally like someone stands up or they like disconnect and their video goes off. But instead it was like the video was still go there. But he was gone. It was like he teleported. And so we, we, we, uh, were just kind of observing that, laughing at that. And then he walked back into the room, you know, from wherever he teleported to, and he said that the reason he teleported was because his Roomba. Knocked his hero wifi out of socket and we all just had kind of a like technological laugh moment that the reason why he teleported and his wifi went out was because a robot knocked out, you know, his internet. And we just all thought that that was really funny. And it ended up becoming like a grain clip that's like 45 seconds long that is constantly shared in our slack as like a funny moment in grain history. And you know, I tweeted it out and then it got a pretty good reaction. But I'll, uh, I'll, I'll link it to you so you can share it in the show notes. But,
Rick:do.
Mike:it was just, it's just kind of fun and, and, and the fact that we like, had had a recording of it,'cause we record everything, helped kind of like codify it into like grain fork lore and make it into something that otherwise would've just been a moment. But because we had it recorded and we could watch it back, it ended up being kind of like funny and hilarious and something we re revisit now.
Kaleem:Oh wow. Damn that iRobot, the robots are taking over
Mike:Yeah, It was just like the most, it was just the most, like, work from home in 2020. Whatever thing ever is. My Roomba knocked my ear out, so I, uh, sorry about that.
Rick:Oh my gosh. That's, That's, amazing.
Kaleem:That is great.
Rick:So where can our listeners and viewers find you, Mike?
Mike:so I, uh, tweet, when I am able, I haven't been tweeting a lot lately, but I'm actually gonna start doing a little bit more as, uh,
Kaleem:Are you sure? Are you sure you're not X-ing You sure not. You're not X-ing.
Mike:I'm Xing. Yeah, that's, uh, inappropriate Kaleen.
Rick:We will leave that where it stands.
Kaleem:I'm, Xing. I'm Xing. Now what a.
Mike:Yeah. Honey. Uh, that X site, um, I don't know about that. Um,
Rick:Yeah.
Mike:No. So I'm on X or whatever you wanna call it, uh, Michael Glen a, and then, I post on LinkedIn as well. And then, I'm just mike@grain.co grain.com. If you ever want to, uh, shoot me an email, grain.co will work too.
Rick:Cool. Cool. Well, you've been, uh, extremely insightful. Thank you for tolerating our nonsense for the better part of this hour. We appreciate you and, uh, hopefully you can join us again soon.
Mike:I would love to.
Kaleem:I'll see you on that Strava, Mike. I'll talk to you.
Mike:I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm on it. You've inspired me.
Kaleem:24. I'm gonna be there.
Mike:It sounds good. Thanks y'all.
Kaleem:Peace.