Quantifying Remote Work Impact: Kate Lister's Calculator and the Tech Behind Remote Work Savings - ep. 071

In our latest episode, hosts Rick Haney and Kaleem Clarkson enjoy a captivating conversation with the accomplished Kate Lister, Principal of Global Workplace Analytics. With nearly two decades of expertise, Kate has been at the forefront of helping employers shape, implement, and evaluate on-site, remote, and hybrid workplace strategies.

In this episode, Kate's remarkable journey comes to life, revealing surprising twists from her transition from banking to operating a vintage flight-seeing business with her husband. The challenges of her consulting days take center stage, intertwined with the creation of a groundbreaking calculator that vividly illustrates the substantial savings achievable through remote work. Kate's outstanding background and numerous media features add an extra layer of intrigue to her already impressive accomplishments. Discover how Kate Lister is making work, work better, and explore the exciting landscape of remote work with a seasoned expert at the helm.

Discussing her accomplishments, her calculator, a feat of complexity with over 600 calculations and 125 variables, steps into the spotlight. Its significance in quantifying the impact of remote work becomes evident, showcasing its monumental importance.

Witness her transformative approach to convincing companies about the benefits of remote work. Initially hesitant to engage with clients resisting remote work, Kate has evolved to focus on education backed by evidence. She emphasizes the critical role of measuring and articulating concerns accurately, guiding companies to concentrate on the right issues.

Three years ago an occurrence that easily captures the essence of Kate's journey took place, she received a call that seemed unbelievable. A testimony before the U.S. Senate Committee in 2020 became a reality, marked by its challenges and unexpected moments.

A unique and entertaining exploration of Kate Lister's journey and the intricacies of remote work, offering a delightful and informative experience for listeners, both before and during the pandemic. Tune in now to Remotely One for an enlightening adventure into the world of remote work!

Thank you for joining us this time Kate, it was awesome!

Learn more about Kate:

• Kate’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/klister/
• Global Workplace Analytics: https://globalworkplaceanalytics.com/
• Remote Work Savings Calculators: https://globalworkplaceanalytics.com/about_our_calculators

Transcript

Kaleem: 0:35

I have to tell you that before you got on, we're just going to be honest here. Like before you got on, I had to, you know, get this on. I had my shirt off, you know, I had some nakedness going on in the camera

Kate: 0:47

Oh, no! Oh,

Kaleem: 0:49

cause if you don't know this, Rick and I grew up together. We went to high school together. Yeah. Yeah. So he's seen me naked

Kate: 0:55

you were young together. You didn't actually grow up.

Kaleem: 0:58

Correct. Correct.

Rick: 0:59

I, I'm still a Toys R Us kid.

Kaleem: 1:02

Do you remember the jingle?

Rick: 1:04

Of course I do. I don't want to grow up, I'm a Toys R Us kid.

Kate: 1:09

Oh yeah, yeah, I'm

Rick: 1:10

I don't

Kate: 1:10

R Us kid, da da

Kaleem: 1:12

Well done. Yeah, so like, what happens is when you jump on, it takes a snapshot. So I can see,, like, my face and stuff. So when I hopped on, it was just me with no shirt on. I was like, yeah, I'm going to have to like exit out and come back in.

Kate: 1:30

heart.

Rick: 1:32

It's usually something dumb of me where I'm like, you know, reaching for the camera. Ha, ha,

Kaleem: 1:38

Yeah, absolutely.

Rick: 1:45

Welcome back to Remotely One. I am one of your amazing co hosts, Rick Haney, joined by an esteemed colleague, Kaleem Clarkson. Hey, Kaleem.

Kaleem: 1:55

sir.

Rick: 1:55

Hello. Ha. ha ha ha. ha

Kaleem: 2:00

I love esteemed

Rick: 2:02

Esteemed is the is an under What is the word? Under, uh

Kaleem: 2:05

statement.

Rick: 2:06

Understatement, for sure. You are, like, above steemed. You are, like, over esteemed.

Kaleem: 2:11

I am sweating. I put two undershirts on today for today's guests

Rick: 2:16

you moisturize?

Kaleem: 2:17

oh, yeah, look at me. I'm shining put my

Rick: 2:20

and shiny. Look at that sheen, everybody! Oh my gosh, look at this guy. It's crazy. Oh, wow. hey, everybody. Since you know how to find us, do us a huge favor. Go to ratethispodcast. com forward slash remotely one and just leave us a review. Again, ratethispodcast. com forward slash remotely one. If you could do that, we would be ever so thankful. Since 2015, Remotely One is one of the largest communities of remote work professionals. With over 3, 000 Slack members and 5, 000 email subscribers, it's free to join. So go check it out at remotelyone. com. And with that out of the way, Colleen, give us a tease or two about today's guest.

Kaleem: 3:02

Hmm. Today's guest is kind of been on my bucket list. So I am, I, I, I know I say I'm nervous every show, but this one, like I said, I put two shirts on Rick. I put two shirts on.

Rick: 3:14

That might not be

Kaleem: 3:15

yes. yes. So I'm going to tell you who my bucket list guests are. Right. Jack Nellis. So if you're out there and number two,

Rick: 3:23

Oh, can't see it just

Kaleem: 3:24

Can't say it. Can't say it.

Rick: 3:25

Pump the brakes. Pump the brakes.

Kaleem: 3:27

Pump the brakes. So Jack, if you're hearing this man, come on, get on the show, Jack. our guests today, Rick, they are originally from Philly, right? They're originally from Philly. So go Eagles and they're not afraid to walk at night. Basically. They're not afraid to walk at night. bUt I guess today currently resides in San Diego, California. So the sun, the perfect

Rick: 3:51

yes. That's Southern California.

Kaleem: 3:55

Haven't never been there. Maybe we can go there now that we know somebody. Uh, oh, our guest today, they were a former banker. Um, ooh, check this out. In 2020, our guest, they were one of only three witnesses. Invited to testify before the U. S. Senate committee regarding the post pandemic potential for remote work in government, Rick.

Rick: 4:21

That's big time.

Kaleem: 4:22

before the Senate? Come on, come on. Oh, this is my favorite, this is my favorite tidbit. They used to be a pilot that flew vintage open cockpit airplanes and they love to dress in character while they're doing it. So they're like, and

Rick: 4:39

Like Snoopy the Red Baron character? Or something more professional? I'm the flying ace up here, see?

Kaleem: 4:48

guess what's the oldest plane that you've ever flown?

Rick: 4:54

Wow.

Kaleem: 4:55

That shit still flies. It

Rick: 4:57

That's like my grandparents age.

Kaleem: 5:01

oH my gosh. Our guests today. They have been featured in New York Times, Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, Newsweek, and a dozen of others. They've appeared on NPR, The Today Show, CNBC Nightly News, Voice of America. Oh my gosh. I'm tired. Fox News and dozens of other TV, radio news programs. So just a few bro.

Rick: 5:21

no wonder you're all out of breath. I'm out of breath that. I mean, that is so impressive. And it doesn't even stop there.

Kaleem: 5:28

No, it doesn't stop there. Our guest today, they are the founder of global workplace analytics, which I believe was started in 2006, Rick. So a minute before this whole pandemic thing, like, and they're the founder of global workplace analytics, which is a research based consulting firm on workplace flexibility

Rick: 5:51

Mmm!

Kaleem: 5:53

listeners. Transcribed by https: otter. ai And viewers, please give a warm welcome to Kay go, baby! Let's go!

Rick: 6:06

show, Kate.

Kaleem: 6:07

Let's go! Oh

Kate: 6:09

Oh my

Kaleem: 6:10

going crazy! Oh, settle down,

Rick: 6:13

Everybody settle down. You in the front, sit down.

Kaleem: 6:15

Holy

Kate: 6:16

as the most incredible introduction ever.

Kaleem: 6:20

No, thank you. Oh my gosh.

Rick: 6:24

We are so happy that you could join us. This might put us on the map, Kaleem.

Kate: 6:28

Not sure where, but somewhere on the map.

Kaleem: 6:32

The remote work peak is where we're at,

Rick: 6:35

Yeah. Yeah. You can see us in a vintage airplane with a map with the red X's that, you know, like the old fashioned going across the ocean.

Kate: 6:45

Actually, that's one of the big problems in flying a vintage airplane, an open cockpit biplane. I mean, you've got a map, right? It's like, you know, this big, and it's all folded. It's very windy out there,

Rick: 6:56

Oh, can you imagine being the guy that loses grip on the map? What do you do then? OH SHIT!

Kaleem: 7:04

Where do we fly? Where do we fly next?

Rick: 7:10

Oh my gosh. Well, this is gonna be a fun episode, I can feel it already. Thanks for joining us, Kate. It's great to have you here.

Kate: 7:16

Great to be here.

Rick: 7:17

your Credentials are hugely impressive, and I'm a inspirational kind of guy. I love to hear about what inspires people, where they got their start. And I'm wondering in your case, you know, you've been doing this for so long. What was it that was your influence to get started in this business? And how did it take you from where you started to where you are now?

Kate: 7:38

Uh, pantyhose.

Rick: 7:41

Like, like a great pair of legs pantyhose? Or.

Kate: 7:45

Maybe.

Rick: 7:46

Okay.

Kaleem: 7:47

Okay. Okay. Let me guess. Let me guess. I'm sorry. with pantyhose.

Kate: 7:51

I hated them. I hate dressing up. I hate it. When I was a banker, it was like one of the worst parts was having to dress up. And so then when I was a barnstormer, you know, I got to wear a flight suit and, goggles and helmet and all kinds of cool stuff. we sold that business, it's like, Nope, not going to wear pantyhose again.

Kaleem: 8:09

what year is this Kate?

Kate: 8:10

2006. Almost 20 years ago.

Kaleem: 8:14

so pantyhose, you're like, I don't want to wear pantyhose again. Now I've never worn

Kate: 8:21

pinches at

Kaleem: 8:23

I may at some point, but from what I understand, it's like, it's a whole situation, right? Like he got,

Rick: 8:33

Hey, Joe Namath did it

Kaleem: 8:36

Hey, Hey, lots of people do it. So, You were frustrated with pantyhose. How and why or where did the concept of workplace flexibility or telework, probably at that time is what you called it. How did you even look that way?

Kate: 8:52

Yeah, I mean, to be honest, so we're running this vintage airplane business. We ran it for 16 years. I was a banker before that. And, I say we, my husband and I, we just didn't want to go back to real jobs. And so we started looking around for what kinds of work can you do at home. And we ran across all of the usual scams and, you know, all of the junk that was out there. It's still out there, I'm sure, but now there's at least some legitimate stuff. And so we went to John Wiley and Sons. We'd written a couple of books for them in the past. And asked them if we wanted to write a book about remote work. And we want it to be a business book to show organizations the benefits of allowing people to work flexibly. And they said, no, we don't think that businesses are going to be interested in that. so so they

Kaleem: 9:39

Wiley, take that Wiley. Come on, John Wiley. You know how popular that book would have been probably two years ago.

Rick: 9:46

Yeah.

Kate: 9:48

So they said, okay, write a consumer title. So we did. It was called Undress for Success.

Kaleem: 9:52

Oh,

Kate: 9:53

The Naked Truth About Making Money at Home.

Rick: 9:55

amazing.

Kate: 9:56

And the one thing we begged them was to not put bunny slippers on the cover. What was on the cover? Pink bunny slippers. I mean, we were trying to add legitimacy to working from home, right?

Rick: 10:07

deal breaker.

Kate: 10:09

And, it was really in researching that book, I mean, I've always been kind of a research nut and a numbers nut, that I realized nobody had made the C suite business case for this. Nobody had showed the senior executives that they could increase productivity, that they could reduce turnover, save money in real estate, reduce absenteeism, you know, any of those things. Nobody had really quantified it, and so I put together a model that showed a typical employer could save about 12, 000 per half time, hybrid, employee per year.

Kaleem: 10:43

For the book, you decided that you wanted to write the book. And again, this is roughly 2006 ish. So there weren't a ton of companies that were publicly talking about being remote or using telework at that time. So what did you do to write the book? Like, how did you find some data and find some examples. who did you reach out to, for

Kate: 11:08

Yeah, Census had some data at the time and the Bureau of Labor Statistics talked to some companies that were early adopters. Sun Microsystems was an early adopter. American Express was an early adopter. There were lots of companies that were trying this. In fact, call centers were one of the first kinds of organizations that went to this because they would move into a town, they'd do their population studies, and they'd say, okay, yeah, this place is going to have a lot of people that are likely to want to work in a call center. They move in. In a year, they exhaust the population of anybody that would ever want a call center job. And they have to pull up stakes and move somewhere else. And so they said there's got to be a better model. And so a number of companies went, found when they went to the remote work model, You know, they'd get like 4, 000 candidates for every job posting that they put out. Because people could do it from anywhere all over the world. And it was the kind of thing that you could do for an hour, and then stop, and then do for an hour. So it really appealed to a lot of people.

Rick: 12:10

That's incredible. Were you working remotely as you were writing this book, or did this predate your remote career?

Kate: 12:17

Actually, when I left banking, I started another business helping business owners find financing and doing venture capital, and I did that from home. And then the, barnstorming business, the flight seeing business, we largely ran from home because it's such a cool business. Everybody wants to come out in the airport and just talk your ear off and tell you what they know and tell stories and listen to your stories. And, it actually is a business. We had to deal with the FAA, we had to deal with drug testing, we had 72 pilots over the 16 years that we ran it. I mean, it was a real business. And so we had to get off the airport to run it from home. And we enjoyed that. So there was that common thread since probably I was 32? Of working remotely and enjoying it.

Rick: 13:03

So it was kind of a progression. You went from working remotely with your vintage flight seeing company. Yeah, I love that word by the way, flight seeing, that's such a great term. I'd never heard that before. So you moved from, even though that was kind of a work from home endeavor, you progressed more toward the consulting side of things. What were some of the biggest challenges for the companies that you were consulting back then?

Kate: 13:32

that this was a good thing to do, I remember one of my first clients was a hospital system in San Diego. And, there was a lot of changes in the health care system and the insurance system. And as a result, they were really scaling up quickly. And they needed 400 people out of the building by year end.

Rick: 13:53

Uh huh.

Kate: 13:53

didn't have room for any more people. So they brought me in and you know, it was I think it was somebody in facilities that actually was the champion. She brought me in and we put together a meeting with the president and the head of real estate and the head of HR and the head of, technology and said, look, Here's the business case and I go through that whole progression of how you get to that 12, 000 savings a year. I mean, You and I know there's a lot of other qualitative benefits of hybrid and remote work. But when you're talking to the C suite, you're talking to the CFO. They like the language of money. And so that, you know, that was where we lead. I was sort of a chameleon. Whatever you want to throw at me, I can throw back hybrid work. You want to talk about sustainability, I'll throw you hybrid work. You want to talk about productivity, I'll throw you hybrid work. You want to talk about saving money, I'll throw you hybrid work. So, whatever it took to make the sale. And so, in that case, we helped them to get the people out of the building. We did a pilot. Lots of people were interested in doing it and within, six months, we had freed up a lot of space as a result of those people working from home. In fact, they were building a new building at the time, you know, multi, multi million dollar building. And when I had the head of real estate in the room, I said, you know, why are you building that building? Why don't you consider doing a wide scale remote work program for the people that you already have in this building and you may not even need it. And he looked over at his second and said, why can't we do that? And the guy's saying, no, we're too far along. And he's like, Why don't you look into that? And so they actually had them, you know, see if it was possible to reverse course on this new building. Ultimately they decided it was not, But they continued to embrace remote work.

Rick: 15:36

Wow.

Kaleem: 15:37

you said some things earlier about the calculator. I want to kind of go back to that because I feel like understanding the savings. What factors did you consider when trying to build in that calculator of savings? That's my first question. And then I guess the second part of the question is does the calculator still exist and have you had to update it?

Kate: 16:00

Again, I'm a little bit of a numbers, not

Rick: 16:02

Yeah.

Kate: 16:04

has a 600 calculations and 125 variables.

Kaleem: 16:08

Okay. Okay. Let's stop. How in the, I'm not gonna curse. I want to curse. How did you come up with 600 variables? Like, how did you do this?

Kate: 16:20

Only 125 variable, 600 calculations.

Kaleem: 16:23

Sorry, that is, yes, that's a big difference.

Rick: 16:26

it together. Kaleem.

Kaleem: 16:28

she could tell she said she knows research a little bit.

Kate: 16:32

right, so let's look at productivity, right? When somebody isn't working, either because they don't have the right resources or because they're constantly interrupted 15, 20 times a day, that takes away from their productivity. So if you're, if you take a typical salary, and in the U. S. I think the average is about 50, 000 a year, and you divide it out by minutes, you can quantify what that loss is in time. So You know, as it turns out, a company could pay for the entire office space for an employee for a year if they saved ten minutes a day as a result of working from home. And in reality, most employees then, and it turns out now, give back about half of the time they would have otherwise spent playing in traffic.

Kaleem: 17:19

right.

Kate: 17:20

You know, you get up. You pad into the office, you get your coffee, you kind of go to work somewhere along the way. You take a shower and you know, people work more and that has proven true during the pandemic as well. So that's productivity. So for that you need the average salary and that's going to change by city and you need the minutes per day that you're going to save. Looking at real estate, you need the average square footage per person, the cost per square foot of a typical office in a typical city.

Kaleem: 17:48

Okay.

Kate: 17:49

you need the average number of days that somebody's absent. And you've got to multiply that out by, if they're only doing it half time, because that was the assumption. And quite frankly, I've always been in favor of the hybrid model. That we didn't, we never called it that. But, on average, the people who worked from home, historically, have worked from home half of the time. And guess what? Right now we're finding that people that are working from home are working from home two to three days a week. That's half time. And so yes, I actually remembered your second question. I put that calculator online I think it was in 2010 and made it free, available to anybody. and have had thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people using it. It's still there. In fact, the U. S. Government Accountability Office came to me at one point because Congress had charged them with finding tools to quantify the impact of telework in government. And they looked around and they found mine and said, we want to check this out and I gave them a peek behind the curtains, I showed them all the variables. I showed them all the research, typically I would have here's why you're going to save money in productivity or why you're going to increase productivity. Here's the 10 research studies that prove it. And here's the 10 companies that have done it. And so for each of those things, I had that background to show. I've got a database of over 7, 000 documents that I've collected over the years. Anything I can put my eyeballs on that has to do with, hybrid work and flexibility and employee wellness and stress and, office design and, you know, all those kinds of things. And so I showed them that as well. And ours was the only, tool that they recommended in their report to Congress. And they said that it was. Comprehensive and thoroughly researched.

Kaleem: 21:44

You hear that you hear that audience you hear that audience. There's a tool out there. So I don't want to hear any BS about We don't know the calculation of savings for remote employees that is BS people You got a calculator right here.

Kate: 21:59

yeah,

Kaleem: 21:59

Global I was going to say workforce analytics.

Kate: 22:07

Oh,

Rick: 22:08

the engine was running folks, but there was no one behind the wheel.

Kate: 22:13

Global workplace analytics. Yeah. And it's got not just the employer savings but employee savings and what they save a year in food purchased out, in transit, in serendipity purchases, all thoroughly researched and also what the environment can potentially save.

Rick: 22:32

Wow.

Kate: 22:33

In fact, we figured out that, if everyone who had a compatible job, which at that time I think was about 42 percent of the U. S. workforce, worked from home half of the time, it would be the equivalent of taking the entire New York State workforce off the road

Rick: 22:48

unbelievable. That is impressive.

Kate: 22:51

Yeah. Unfortunately, it didn't prove true in the pandemic

Rick: 22:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Kate: 22:56

went up.

Rick: 22:57

yeah. You mentioned a few minutes ago about the government and I've been dying to ask this question about your, having testified to the U. S. Senate Committee. What was that experience like, and what ultimately happened with it? What did they find as a result of your testimony?

Kate: 23:16

yeah. So I guess this was early 2020. So it wasn't long after the pandemic started and there were some senators that were interested in continuing it. They had been before the pandemic. In fact, the federal government has had on its books Since 2000, a, regulation that said every employee is to work from home to the maximum extent possible. Since 2000. And that was put in place because of bird flu.

Rick: 23:42

Oh,

Kate: 23:43

They feared a pandemic and they needed to understand that, their people could work remotely if they needed to. It was a continuity of operations, disaster preparedness planning tool.

Kaleem: 23:54

So they call you, they want you to testify.

Kate: 23:58

yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, I didn't believe him. My husband said that this is a senator or something on the line. It's like, nah,

Rick: 24:08

Yeah.

Kate: 24:09

you're you're pulling my leg. Yeah. Yes. That sort of got it started and and they wanted me to come to Washington to do it. Okay. This is like 2 months into the pandemic. They want me to get on an airplane and fly from San Diego to Washington to talk about why we should work from home.

Rick: 24:28

It would have had a profound effect if it had just had a Zoom call, but that's just my opinion.

Kate: 24:32

Well, we did, you know, actually all three of the witnesses, did it via Zoom.

Kaleem: 24:36

Oh wow.

Kate: 24:38

Preparing it was insane. You have exactly five minutes, and they bring in the hook and pull you off stage. And as it turns out, they don't even do that. The senators interrupt you and ask questions in the middle of it. And so that had to be precisely timed, and then you had to submit a written testimony as well, which was different from the verbal testimony. But I didn't know that until 20 minutes before I went on that morning. I thought I was just going to deliver my written testimony. And in the pre call, right? That morning, they said, Oh no! Oh no, you can't Do that! So I had to make it up on the fly.

Kaleem: 25:16

Do you remember the question that they asked you to respond to?

Kate: 25:20

Oh, a lot of questions. Like, evidence do you have that people will be more productive? Do you think managers are equipped to manage people working remotely? What are the downsides? The, the senators that were in favor of it, sort of prompting me for what are the other upsides. Have you seen companies that have done it? And in my testimony, which is also free, available on our website. And I've submitted another one since. It was a written testimony. It, or just about all the statistics you could ever want for remote work.

Kaleem: 25:51

interesting.

Kate: 25:52

So just go to our white paper page and download everything you want.

Kaleem: 25:56

there's a ton of white papers on there too.

Rick: 25:58

Oh, yeah.

Kate: 25:59

Uh. So it was. intimidating,

Kaleem: 26:02

Yeah.

Rick: 26:03

I'm sure it was. I can't imagine what it's like You know, and the reason I ask is because we know in this country sometimes our politicians are not exactly on the ball with a lot of things. So, I think one guy a couple years ago said that the internet was a series of tubes in which physical information was sent through. It was the Zuckerberg interview when he testified. So,

Kate: 26:26

no.

Rick: 26:27

so were there any moments during your testimony when I don't know, somebody thought that it was like a remote that you held in your hand to search for jobs.

Kaleem: 26:36

Everyone's sitting in their underwear, right, Kate? Everyone's sitting in their underwear. How can they work in their underwear,

Kate: 26:41

Well, yeah, you get that all the time, but there was this big old senator and he was leaning back in his chair and he says, I think they're just sitting on the sofa and they're eating bonbons and they're doing their laundry. That's what I think.

Rick: 26:56

Well, at least he gave them credit enough to do their laundry. That's what he thinks of most Americans.

Kate: 27:02

But I mean, okay, so what's the problem with that? Do they get their job done? You know, this has been the problem since the beginning, is that employers simply don't trust their employees to work untethered, and they don't know how to manage by results.

Rick: 27:13

exactly

Kate: 27:14

Martha Johnson, who was the head of the USGSA when they were doing a big experiment in government, this has to be ten years ago or more. But they were taking a downtown Washington building, that historic building that was designed for 2000 people and implementing telework at the same time. And the way they designed it, nobody had assigned seat. And, you know, through telework, you would just come in when you needed to and work at home when you didn't, or work at a telework center. And they were able to convert that building to house 4, 500 people instead of 2, 000. And Martha had a line that I just love. Telework doesn't create management problems, it reveals them. And I think that what we saw in the pandemic is, the pandemic and working from home didn't create the problems, but it revealed that managers aren't managing by results, which we knew already. The, uh managing by backs of heads is equivalent to babysitting as far as I'm concerned. Not to mention the highest time viewership of porn is during working hours prior to the pandemic. So,

Rick: 28:20

Of course.

Kate: 28:21

that tells you a lot about whether or not that management by work, working

Kaleem: 28:24

Jeez.

Kate: 28:25

working. ha.

Kaleem: 28:26

Awfully risky to be on X. com

Rick: 28:30

And risque, I might

Kaleem: 28:31

risque, AKA Twitter while you're at work. X. com.

Rick: 28:36

this brings up a really valid point. In a way, you kind of already answered this, but I was hoping to dive a little bit deeper. Before, when you first started out, you, your consulting role was basically Convincing companies about the benefits of remote work, and then the pandemic hits, and this buzzword just explodes, and it's something that everyone is having to deal with. Can you talk a little bit about the differences between pre pandemic, you know, convincing companies, and now post pandemic, where everybody is looking for remote work? are some of the challenges you face now versus then?

Kate: 29:14

Yeah. 2020 and 2021 practically killed me.

Kaleem: 29:19

Really?

Kate: 29:19

I was just so busy with companies wanting advice on how to manage this. I mean, we were sort of in denial. I guess for the first year at least. And even beyond that, I think companies have been in triage mode. We're going to go back, we're going to go back, we're going to go back. And so we've never really changed the practices and the processes to support remote and hybrid work. Which, by the way, also support on site work, better support on site work. Yeah I equate it to, you know, when you first got cell phones, only using them at the house. Or when we first got smartphones, only using them to make phone calls. I think still that's what most companies are doing. But in that first several years, the companies that realized, Hey, this is working pretty well. This is a pretty good thing. How do we optimize it? That's where I got involved is. You know, how do we get leadership on board? How do we get them aligned? And then How do we do the change management and, the training and all that's needed to optimize the practice? How do we decide, what's our policy going to be? Just getting them to that point. A lot of companies, heck, didn't even announce it until, what, two, three months ago? But those early companies You know, they really gained a lot of, I think, loyalty among their employees because they came out and they said, Okay, this is what we're going to do and we're going to put in place that you're going to have the tools that you need, tell us what you need, we're going to do the training, we're going to do this thing right. So, that was pretty much what I did for the first couple of years and then the last year has been how do we get them to come back? That's always the first question I've gotten in the last year.

Kaleem: 30:53

So now you're in this space where before, You know, you've seen Nick out there doing his research thing. Shout out. Dr. Bloom, but like before the pandemic, right? You had all those stats, right? Like less and now you see you saw the huge increase, right? And now we're kind of dipping back down, but everyone has experienced remote work now mostly for even if you didn't get an opportunity to work remotely. There's a good chance that you interacted with somebody who was working remotely. So, are you still kind of, you know, in that place of, I feel like we need to convince people still, and you're still kind of taking that on or, and I heard you say, people are asking you, how do we get people back into the office? So where are you kind of putting your company as far as like what you will do and what you don't. I'm not going to do like, like, how do you make that decision? Cause we won't, a blend and we kind of followed a lot of your work. Shout out to global workplace analytics. I got it. And you know, we've referenced your stuff. We give you shout outs all the time. But the first thing that we decided when we started in 13 was we don't want to be the convincing agency because it's just, I mean, you know, the effort and how much time it takes. So where do you kind of see your priorities now? Like someone comes to you and says, how do I get people back into the office? Are you willing to take that consulting job on?

Kate: 32:19

first I was not,

Kaleem: 32:21

Interesting.

Kate: 32:22

then I realized that there's still an education that needs to happen, and I just don't think the employers are going to win. And so what I feel my role is, is to ask them why. Why do you want to get your people back? And typically it's because we're losing productivity our culture is declining, it's impeding innovation, and engagement is lower. And they say, really? Do you have data that shows that? And they never do. And then I show them the research, that says, no, it's not true. Right? And so it's getting them to measure. If you say that your culture's declining, How are you measuring that? What does that mean? And very often it's just the CEO's own bias and personality. I got to interview the, head of HR for Netflix the morning after Reed Hastings, announced that, no good will ever come out of remote work. Right. Before that little pre conversation, I said, can I ask you about that? I mean, is that, Fair game. And she said, yeah, she said, I mean, bottom line is he thought everybody felt like he did. Everybody wanted to be back in the office. Everybody loved this environment. And it just wasn't true, and they could show him surveys and show him that 90 percent wanted to continue to work from home. And, he just had a closed mind on it. So, I show them the evidence, I give them the examples, and then I show them, there's plenty of things to be worried about but those are the wrong things. And so let's focus on what the right things that you should be worrying

Kaleem: 33:50

That's fascinating. I never once thought about like why you would want to take on a client that's saying no. And I was on a podcast recently and they just said, what can we do to further this movement or this new, not a new way, but this way of work that people want. And you said, you just said something that just really hit hard and it's, The employers are not going to win this battle over time. So you're taking it upon yourself to go out and help those employers because they're not going to win and you have all the research to show it. So instead of saying, I'm not even going to help, which help you, which I'm embarrassed that's what we say. But, you're going the opposite way and saying, no, I need to actually work with those peoples that don't understand so that we can move this forward. It's

Kate: 34:40

Well, they pay me, so that helps.

Kaleem: 34:41

Well, of course.

Rick: 34:45

That's the bottom line, folks.

Kaleem: 34:46

me the money. Damn it. Show me the money. Show me the money. I'm rich bitch. The

Rick: 34:56

Oh my gosh.

Kaleem: 34:57

the show that makes sense but kudos to you for doing That

Rick: 35:00

That is amazing. Kate, do us a favor. Can you share with us, uh, a comical or even an inspiring moment have had during your remote career?

Kate: 35:12

Well, I hope it doesn't inspire. laughs laughs. Oh, I'm not sure you do. I'm pretty sure I don't want you there with me. Okay, so I'm running late for a call. I'm making the bed, actually changing the sheet on the bed. You know how you pull the corner of the mattress up to get the damn sheet around the, corner?

Kaleem: 35:35

Yes. Yep.

Kate: 35:37

making the bed. You've made beds, right? Um,

Kaleem: 35:39

Yeah. Mama said, make that bed. I made beds for show.

Kate: 35:43

So, I've got it balanced up on my knee, and my knee slips, and it hits the corner of the, end table, which is glass topped. And it hurts like the diggings. So I go and I get an ice pack out of the freezer. I wrap it around my leg. I think this is actually, this is about 20 minutes before the call and you know, I'm getting ready for the call and I take the thing off my leg and my leg is now crunchy. Like you push on it, you know, the skin is crunchy.

Kaleem: 36:10

Oh, it's the worst.

Kate: 36:13

of course, I look it up online. It's Frostbite. It's like, okay, what do they do for Frostbite? And, you know, they soak it in hot water. So, I go and I run the tub and I get in the tub. And, this is the part where I really didn't want you there.

Kaleem: 36:25

I understand that. That's okay.

Kate: 36:27

And I, get on my call. And everything's

Kaleem: 36:30

Whoa. in the tub?

Kate: 36:32

Yes, yes, yes.

Rick: 36:33

Okay.

Kaleem: 36:34

I'm gonna bathe in my bubbles and get on the call. And what year is this? What year is this too?

Kate: 36:40

Oh gosh, that was about 10 years ago.

Kaleem: 36:42

Okay, so the tech isn't as quick and easy, okay.

Kate: 36:46

no, no, no. Um,

Rick: 36:48

has an antenna.

Kate: 36:49

yes, exactly. And, okay, call's going fine, you know, everything's fine. And then I realize that the bubbles are going to come on, the jet is going to come on in 45 minutes. Because it, it comes on by itself and, you know, cleans itself out. And it's really loud.

Rick: 37:09

Uh huh.

Kate: 37:11

And so I'm thinking, yes, 40 minutes into this call. How do I end the call? Because you can't turn it off. It comes on automatically.

Kaleem: 37:18

Okay, okay.

Kate: 37:19

Do I fess up here or what? As it turned out, it was a woman I was on the call with. And it was my first call, first time I'd met her. And I said, look. I just have to be honest here. It's going to get noisy.

Rick: 37:38

You did the right thing, though.

Kaleem: 37:40

I mean, okay, it's gonna get noisy. Is that all you said?

Kate: 37:44

Well, you know, then I, uh, I told her why quickly so that I would still beat the, uh, The tub is in the office, by the way. It's a hot tub.

Kaleem: 37:55

It's a hot tub. So what happened? Oh,

Rick: 37:58

Wheeeeee!

Kate: 38:00

It, yeah, my, my, my leg was fine and Everything worked out fine. I got to be good friends with the woman that was,

Kaleem: 38:07

That is so great. Oh I mean it would have been kind of hilarious if I happened to just bust open the door and be like, oh, excuse me You know, I didn't, I didn't, I'm here for the call,

Kate: 38:21

Yeah, right.

Kaleem: 38:22

bath, this is the first bubble bath story we've heard Rick. That's hilarious.

Kate: 38:26

Probably the last.

Rick: 38:29

Oh, man. Thank you for sharing that. That was a great story.

Kaleem: 38:33

Yes.

Rick: 38:33

listeners find you?

Kate: 38:35

Oh, thank you for asking.

Kaleem: 38:37

Yes.

Kate: 38:40

GlobalWorkplaceAnalytics. com And we've got lots of free resources. We have over the years made it a point to make as much as we can available for free.

Kaleem: 38:49

okay, what about your socials? Where do You hang out on the social, media webs?

Kate: 38:53

Oh, I was, I thought you were asking my social security number. Um, yes, I'm very active on LinkedIn, a little less active on, Twitter. Not active on Facebook because it makes me depressed that everybody else is having much more fun than I

Kaleem: 39:06

Yeah, I get that. I get that. Well, thank you so much, Kate, for coming on the show. I couldn't believe it when I was looking through the list and I saw, I was like, Oh my gosh, I've never, we've never sent the invite. It's you've been on my bucket list. You're a huge inspiration to my partner and I, who we decided to build a consultancy. And, you know, we were on your website for so many hours in 2000. 12 in 2013. I just want the audience to listen to what Kate had to say today. She's an OG in this remote workspace, a pre pandemic remote professional, og. So again, I just had to gush a little bit at the end right there. So just thank you so much and we definitely can't wait to meet you in person at some point.

Kate: 39:52

Yeah. Thanks, Kelly. Thanks, Rick.

Kaleem: 39:55

Awesome.