The Power of Cognitive Biases in Remote Work: Lessons from Dr. Gleb Tsipursky - ep. 079

Are you ready to unlock the secrets of remote work success and revolutionize your decision-making processes? Join hosts Rick Haney and Kaleem Clarkson as they welcome the acclaimed "Office Whisperer" and "Hybrid Expert" Dr. Gleb Tsipursky to the latest episode of Remotely One. As a behavioral scientist and the CEO of Disaster Avoidance Experts, Dr. Tsipursky brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to the table.

In this captivating episode, Gleb introduces the fascinating world of cognitive biases, shedding light on how these psychological phenomena impact decision-making. Through engaging examples like overindulging in cookies, he reveals how biases such as the status quo bias and functional fixedness can shape leadership and adaptation in remote work settings.

Drawing from his consulting work with the University of Southern California's Information Sciences Institute, Gleb tackles the challenges of retention and recruitment in academia head-on. He underscores the pivotal role of flexibility in work arrangements, showcasing its power in attracting and retaining top talent, surpassing even financial incentives. Gleb also delves into effective onboarding strategies tailored for remote employees, from insightful surveys to personalized mentoring programs.

Looking towards the future, Gleb predicts a continued ascent of remote work, driven by groundbreaking technological advancements such as generative AI and augmented reality. He urges listeners to discern between headline trends and the real-world dynamics of remote work, advocating for a deeper understanding of the forces shaping the modern workplace.

Gleb’s passion for navigating the complexities of remote work and cognitive biases shines through in this enlightening discussion. Gain invaluable insights into enhancing decision-making processes and cultivating thriving remote and hybrid work cultures.

Don't miss out on this dynamic exchange of ideas, humor, and practical advice—it's a masterclass in understanding human behavior in today's workplace. Tune in now and embark on a journey toward remote work excellence with Dr. Tsipursky as your guide!

Learn more about Gleb:

• Gleb’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-gleb-tsipursky/
• Wise Decision Maker Guide’s Newsletter: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/wise-decision-maker-guide-6618296709996961792/

Transcript

Gleb: 0:35

I'm signed up to have my head cryogenically frozen after I die.

Rick: 0:40

Oh, like Walt Disney.

Gleb: 0:42

Yeah, exactly.

Rick: 0:43

Amazing.

Kaleem: 0:44

We need to stick on this for a little bit. So is this just like, your head's going to be frozen.

Gleb: 0:50

Yeah, I'd love to see what the 22nd century is like, what the 23rd century is like, what the 24th century is like. And it's a very low scenario possibility. It's maybe something like 1 or 2 percent I estimate. But hey, you know, I'm dead. My money, you know, I'm happy for small, relatively small fraction of my money. That goes with my inheritance to be used for that purpose. So like, I don't care. It's not like I can, you know, blow that money on women and booze anyway, right?

Rick: 1:17

Well, it depends on what the afterlife looks like. If it's that good, you ain't coming back to this place, I can promise you that. Welcome back, everybody, to Remotely One. I am your co host, Rick Haney, joined by my esteemed colleague, Kaleem Clarkson. What's going on, brother? You

Kaleem: 1:38

Don't even know what to say right now, I don't even know what to say

Rick: 1:41

geeked up?

Kaleem: 1:42

I'm so geeked up.

Rick: 1:43

If there was ever an occasion to be geeked up, it would be today. Are you

Kaleem: 1:46

I'm trying not to stutter. I'm trying not to look our guests in the eye, like all sorts of things, all sorts of things, you know what I mean? Whew.

Rick: 1:53

You gotta play the role, brother. Play the role.

Kaleem: 1:55

I got the special shirt on Rick. I got the special shirt.

Rick: 2:00

Hey, listeners, viewers, since you know how to find us now, do us a huge favor. Go to ratethispodcast. com forward slash remotely one and just leave us a review. Very simple. Again, ratethispodcast. com forward slash remotely one. And if you could do that for us, we would be ever so joyous and thankful. Since 2015, Remotely One is one of the largest communities of remote work professionals with over 3, 000 Slack members and 5, 000 email subscribers. That's kind of a big deal.

Kaleem: 2:31

Five.

Rick: 2:31

5, 000. It's free to join, so go check it out at remotelyone. com. And with that out of the way, Kaleem, why don't you give us a tease or two about today's phenomenal guest.

Kaleem: 2:43

Okay. So I'm going to go fast because there's just so much shit to get to here. Okay. So first off, that's right. That's right. So first off, Rick, our guest grew up in the Ukraine, the Moldova region. So that's really interesting. He currently resides in Columbus, Ohio, which is the American heartland, the

Rick: 3:01

It is? I think it is.

Kaleem: 3:04

never knew that.

Rick: 3:05

I always thought it had a weird title like the Bread Basket of America or something, but that fits too.

Kaleem: 3:12

Our guest has been a professional speaker for 26 years. Damn. And he's part of the National Speakers Association. He's been a member since 2017. He's a global best selling author with not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, but seven. Seven books. So you have to go on Amazon, buy them all, buy them all. He only agreed to come on the podcast today. If all of our guests bought every single book. So please go buy every book, every one of them. Our guests, Rick, I mean just, Oh my gosh, our

Rick: 3:45

Well, where did he go to school? I think you glossed over that one.

Kaleem: 3:49

Hmm. That's right. That's right. Our guests did go to school. Okay. Our guests. Our guests is not just. a bachelor. Our guest is doctor, but I'm not going to say his name, but he earned his doctorate of philosophy from UNC Chapel Hill. Good catch, Rick. We can't

Rick: 4:05

Yeah, that's right here in NC. I had to shout out to UNC, because that's where I live.

Kaleem: 4:09

tar heels

Rick: 4:10

Yes.

Kaleem: 4:12

our guest is a contributing columnist for fortune magazine. He's written a ton of articles on remote and hybrid work, but he's also been in other publications, featuring publications such as the Harvard business review USA today, fast company news week and time magazine. Just to name a few.

Rick: 4:30

Just a few publications. Minor publications.

Kaleem: 4:32

just minor, just minor. We'll call him doctor. Oh, not going to say it. I'm not going to say it. Let's see. a little tidbit that most people don't know about our guest is that he has signed up to have his head cryogenically frozen, bro. So he can be cloned or brought back from the dead in the future. I mean, I could just, if, if y'all

Rick: 4:55

question is going to be.

Kaleem: 4:56

seriously, if you all can see his face on the video, can you just imagine just his head, you know, frozen. That's hysterical. It's hysterical. Our guests, Rick, they're known as the office whisper in hybrid expert labeled by the New York times. Okay. So. You know, done a few things. Our guest today is the CEO of disaster avoidance experts whose clients include, you ready for the client list.

Rick: 5:20

I don't know if I am. Go for it.

Kaleem: 5:22

Yeah. Now, here we go. Our guests have done some shits. Aflac, LendingTree, IBM, Nationwide Insurance, World Wildlife Fund, Wells Fargo, and Xerox. Whoo. Listeners and viewers, please give a warm welcome to Gleb Saperski.

Rick: 5:55

Alright, people. Settle

Kaleem: 5:56

Down

Rick: 5:57

Down front. down. in front. Down in front. This is assembly.

Kaleem: 6:02

Dr. Gleb. Thank you for being on the show.

Gleb: 6:05

And thank you for inviting me. That was one of the most high energetic introductions I've ever had. So I'm really delighted to be on the show. Thank

Rick: 6:12

love it. Oh, I love people's reactions to those

Gleb: 6:16

your studio audience is really great.

Kaleem: 6:19

I mean, we can't get him to settle down, Dr. Gleb. And also, Rick, our goal is to like, you know, do our intro for someone like you at your next TED Talk. So, you know what, throw us in the budget, throw us in the budget,

Rick: 6:32

We

Gleb: 6:34

Excellent.

Kaleem: 6:35

How about that? How about

Rick: 6:36

oblige. We will happily oblige. Dr. Gleb Sapersky, thank you so much for joining us. I have so many questions, but You know, after that intro, something caught my attention right quick, and gotta know about this head freezing endeavor. I mean, is that like Walt Disney and Ted Williams and those guys? I mean, how does this work and how did you come about finding that?

Gleb: 6:58

Sure. So there's an organization called the Cryogenics Institute based in Michigan. And there's another one, uh, also based in Arizona, which basically provide the service of freezing your head, well, your whole body if you really want, but I really care about my head. So that in the very unlikely scenario that in the future, they can have better technology that extend your life. And can bring you back from the dead that they can actually do that because I'd love to see what the 22nd century is like, what the 23rd century is like, what the 24th century is like. And it's a very low scenario possibility. It's maybe something like 1 or 2 percent I estimate. But hey, you know, I'm dead. My money, you know, I'm happy for small, relatively small fraction of my money. That goes with my inheritance to be used for that purpose. So like, I don't care. It's not like I can, you know, blow that money on women and booze anyway, right?

Rick: 7:53

Well, it depends on what the afterlife looks like. If it's that good, you ain't coming back to this place, I can promise you that.

Kaleem: 7:58

they may have some, you know, people by then, you know what I mean?

Gleb: 8:01

I know, but you know, I can't take that money with me.

Rick: 8:04

yes. yes.

Kaleem: 8:05

I have to admit, you are pretty handsome. So your head, that's pretty smart. It's pretty smart for you to freeze moneymaker, as we say.

Rick: 8:13

Yes. The million dollar smile, as they say.

Kaleem: 8:17

Yes.

Gleb: 8:17

That's right. Well, it costs much more to freeze my whole body. And you know, I only care really about my head.

Rick: 8:23

Oh.

Kaleem: 8:24

That's the best thing.

Rick: 8:25

makes perfect sense, makes perfect sense. Well. So again, thank you Dr. Gleb Sapersky for joining us. Um, I almost don't know where to start. Your resume and your experience is so incredibly impressive. But, I want to start off with your PhD specifically. It's worded as a behavioral science analysis of historical and contemporary societies. Have you always been curious about human behavior, and when did you decide to make a career out of it?

Gleb: 8:56

Absolutely. Yeah, I remember when I was a kid, I would be going to school and, you know, I'd be like in, I don't know, some class that's boring and I don't care about. And I'd be reading about historical contexts under the desk without the teacher looking at it because I was always fascinated with how people make decisions. How do you decide what you decide? Why do we make decisions that we do as individuals, but especially as groups? So that's been always fascinating for me. And so as I went into learning more, went to college and so on, that's what I really started to focus on. How do people make decisions? Why do we make the decisions that we do, especially as the situation changes? So these future of work situations like remote work, how do we make decisions around remote work, around hybrid work, around generative AI? All of these topics that are really hard for us to understand and where leaders, everyone makes mistakes because it's a new situation. It's different than it was. So I really want us to look at the historical context and the contemporary context, see how people make decisions and why we make decisions badly and how we can make decisions better.

Rick: 10:01

Oh, that's

Kaleem: 10:02

Do do you remember your first research project? I'm just curious, like, what was your first research project or one that you can remember that really confirmed what you're in the right spot?

Gleb: 10:11

sure. So my PhD research project, the one that you're referring to, that was looking at decision making of governments toward young people in the Soviet Union and in the United States in the 1950s. So it's comparing two very different ways of living, but still modern ways of living. And so that, I saw that, especially in the Soviet Union, the government, which had a much bigger role in young people's lives, was making some pretty bad decisions that resulted in very counterproductive backlash outcomes, where it tried to control their leisure time, and it tried to shape them and mold them, and young people really Had a strong negative reaction response to that. And so that really helped me realize that, hey, if you really try to force people to get them to conform to certain standards and norms, and not give them autonomy, not give them flexibility, and they don't engage, that causes a lot of problems. And so that's because of people's psychology. If we were perfectly rational robotic beings, then we would be following the directions of authorities and conforming to them, but we're not. And so that is something that very many leaders tend to fundamentally misunderstand about people.

Kaleem: 11:24

Interesting.

Rick: 11:25

I would say so. So, you know, a lot of your work, it deals specifically with cognitive bias, and In simple terms, I'm a simple guy, right? There's a lot of simple guys other than me that listen to the show. Yeah, I mean, my co host is pretty simple too, right? So, so in simple terms, for us and our audience who are a lot smarter than we are, how would you define cognitive bias, and more specifically, related to remote work? What role does cognitive bias play in the tension that surrounds returning to office?

Gleb: 12:01

So let's start with what cognitive bias is Now, do you remember a time when you You ate maybe a little bit more than you wanted to. There was a cookie in front of you, or lots of cookies, you know, Christmas season. There's, uh, somebody bakes cookies, and you're like, oh, I'll only have, like, you know, half a cookie. And then you're kind of triggered, you take the other half of the cookie. And then you take another one, and another one. Before you know it, you know, half the box is gone.

Kaleem: 12:26

And you're passed out. And you're

Gleb: 12:28

And you're passed out. with cookies all over, crumbs all over you. Right.

Kaleem: 12:31

even a little paranoid.

Gleb: 12:34

that's when you're coming off the sugar coma. Yes. That's right. And so why does that happen? Why do we make decisions that we look back on and later regret? So that is the one of the ways that we fall into what's called cognitive bias. Cognitive bias is when we do things that go against our goals. When we. Consciously or unconsciously are looking back. We're like, oh, that was a mistake. Why did I do that? I had all the information I needed to make the right decision like looking back or looking forward when you are facing that situation with a cookie in front of you You probably would only prefer to take one cookie That would be the ideal thing to do right but when we really think about ourselves in that situation We try to put ourselves and we actually put ourselves We take six cookies that we end up with that situation. And so that is an example of what's called the empathy gap. And the empathy gap is one of these dangerous judgment errors, cognitive biases, where we underestimate our future emotions. We feel that we are cool, calm, rational creatures, but in a state of Emotional arousal from the being triggered by the cookies in front of you. We do things that we later regret. And that's just one out of over a couple of hundred of these errors that we tend to make as human beings. You can take a look at the list of cognitive biases in Wikipedia. And that will give you 200 of these cognitive biases that we make mistakes about. My book, Never Go With Your Gut. That's a book about cognitive biases and how they cause us. That's bad problems in all sorts of professional situations where we make bad mistakes. But let's talk about how they apply to remote work. And that's my book called Return to the Office and Leading Hybrid and Remote Teams. It talks about how to not make these mistakes. One of the biggest problems available on Amazon. That's right. Thank you.

Rick: 14:26

book?

Gleb: 14:27

This is my most recent book. Yep.

Rick: 14:28

Sorry for the interruption.

Gleb: 14:30

No, no, no. Thank you. I appreciate that. So one of the biggest problems is called the status quo bias. Now, what's that about? Well, we need to understand the role of these cognitive biases. Where do they come from? Like, why are they there? It seems like it wouldn't be helpful for us to have them, right? Like, why did evolution put them in? Well, the reason it put them in is that we're not really wired for the modern environment. We're not wired to engage with each other as small squares. On the video conference screen, for example. That's not what we're wired for. We're wired for the ancient savannah environment, when we lived in small tribes of 50 people to 150 people. In ancestral savannah, we had that fight or flight response. It was better to jump out of a hundred shadows than to get eaten by a saber toothed tiger. And it was better for us to be tribal. and care only about our tribal members and be hostile to all those who are not. And also in that environment, it was a very precarious environment. So if there were any changes, that was a bad thing. And we should be anxious in that environment if the situation changed because we're likely to be killed if the situation changed. So we have a predilection to go toward the status quo. To push back toward what is we sealed and feel comfortable with. And when you think about a leader who has been successful for 20 30 40 years. working in the office, managing the office, they are used to management by walking around. They know how to succeed in that environment. They know what that's like. And that is not the situation that is optimal in remote work, obviously, but they're comfortable with that scenario. They know how to do that. And so even if remote work Might be the best thing for the bottom line. Might be the best thing for the business. Might be the best thing for the employees. Might be the best thing for the customers. It feels like it's not the best thing to the leader. And so they make a lot of mistakes. around what to do with remote work and how to have the return to office. That's kind of like one scenario. Now, so that's the status quo bias. I'll give you another one. And another one is called functional fixedness. That's kind of like the hammer nail syndrome. You might have heard of that. When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Well, when you learn how to lead in the office, when you learn how to manage people in the office, how to collaborate in the office, You tend to apply those methodologies to remote work. That's kind of the natural, intuitive thing, right? But it doesn't work in remote settings in many ways. It fails. You need to rethink the ways you collaborate, the ways you lead, the ways you manage your team. And when leaders try to apply those old methodologies, even if they are willing to work remotely, they see that, oh, what I'm doing is not working, well, then I need to bring everyone back to the office because I don't know how to do things in this new environment. So not only do they have the status quo bias, they feel successful in the office environment. They're anxious about the remote environment, but even when they try, many don't succeed. And so then they're trying to bring everyone back to the office. So those are just two out of many cognitive biases that apply to remote work.

Kaleem: 17:27

That's really, really interesting. So

Rick: 17:29

Very insightful.

Kaleem: 17:30

Yeah, I love hearing it from a Psychology background too, because cognitive bias is really fascinating in itself and we all have some of these, you know, we can't, we need to be aware of those. So kind of, you know, doubling down on what you said there. Sometimes it's challenging to work with these leaders.

Gleb: 17:52

Mm-Hmm.

Kaleem: 17:52

hard to get through those biases. So you consulted with the university of Southern California's information sciences Institute and another doctor, Dr. Craig Knobloch, the executive director there, he gave you a really interesting video testimonial. So congratulations. It was great. But in that testimonial, he talked about how they. Um, I'm really interested as a fellow consultant. What information did you provide to Craig? That inspired him to kind of look at his biases. And consider something different. How did you get through? Because there's so many of us that read your stuff and I reference your stuff all the time. It and data just always doesn't, it doesn't always connect. So how did you manage that, relationship? How did you address those?

Gleb: 18:54

So the main thing is to find out what is Craig's problem, or what is the leader's biggest challenge? What do they want to solve for? He's the leader of the Information Sciences Institute. That's an artificial intelligence and cyber security and other information technology researchers. So they have a lot of researchers. These are people who are very, very expert in their field. And who can be very successful at companies like Amazon, like Google, like Facebook and so on, Meta, what it's called now, right? They can be very successful at those companies. And they regularly get poached by these companies from the Information Sciences Institute. And so that's a big problem for Craig, that they get poached. And because, of course, the Information Sciences Institute, it's a research institute, they can't afford to pay them nearly as much. As they would get paid at a place like OpenAI, or Anthropic, or any of these like institutions. I mean, they pay millions for artificial intelligence researchers. I mean, this is not going to be something that an educational institution can do. And so, how do you solve the problem of retention, retaining these people, and recruitment? Because you need to recruit new people, of course, into the institute. And so that was a fundamental problem that was Crucial for Craig. And so when I talked to him when during our initial meeting, I told him about how, Hey, Facebook, Google, they're all getting their staff into the office. Apple. They're all getting their staff into the office for three days a week, right? If you do that, you'll just be the same as them. But if you give your staff more flexibility, let's see. And we'll go in depth into what that means. If you give your staff more flexibility, if you allow them to come to the office in a way that's most conducive to them being productive, in a way that's most conducive to them collaborating and getting their work done, while still getting their life done, then they will be much more likely to stay at the Institute, and you will also recruit talented new researchers. who are willing to trade off flexibility for the amount of money that they would get. And so that was a message that really resonated with Craig and other leaders of the Institute. And that's something that helped them get into the project. Now, the other thing that really resonated with Craig was that he didn't know how to manage people in a hybrid setting. And you might recall from the testimonial that Craig said that, oh, you know, Gleb had all of these ideas. Dr. Gleb had all of these ideas about how to manage people in a hybrid setting much more effectively, we didn't know how to do it. And so this other thing that I showed him that, hey, there are a lot of techniques and tools for how to manage people in that hybrid setting. So solving that functional fixedness. The first was solving the. status quo bias, because I showed him that he would be more successful if he didn't go with the status quo. The second thing was the functional fixedness, that I could solve the inability, the lack of skills around how to manage people in a hybrid setting effectively. So knowing that, hey, both of these problems are solvable. And that it would get him what he wants, which is the retention, recruitment and also productivity, engagement, morale for effective management of people. That's what helped get Craig over the hump of doing something different and engaging in that consulting project.

22:29

We'll be right back after these words. 2020 was no joke. It changed the game for everyone. Workplace flexibility is no longer a perk, but an expectation. In fact, a recent study showed that a flexible schedule is more important than salary. Yeah, you heard that right? Employees want choices over cash. If you're a startup or a small business that doesn't have a remote work strategy, stop what you're doing right now and complete our free tree assessment at blendmeinc. com. Since 2013, BlendMe Inc. Has been helping small businesses improve the remote employee experience. Let's stay local, but compete global. Visit us at blendmeinc. com. That's blendmeinc. com. Ever wonder how certain ads catch your attention or get stuck in your head? It's because the person voicing it knows how to tell the story. Maybe they're telling you to stumble over to Sullivan St. Patrick's day for green beers, Irish car bombs, and con beef all freaking day. Don't miss the deal of a lifetime this President's Day at Callahan Ford. Savings like these should be unconstitutional. Or maybe Come wash away your troubles here at Cooters Car Wash. We ain't no soap opry, but you'll be singing high praises. Hoo wee, Cooters! Or, here at Brooks Brothers Mortuary, we put the fun in funeral. Everyone is just dying to join us. Alright, well that's a bit much, but for you, I'll do it. I'm Rick Haney, and if you're a business owner looking for a creative voice in your marketing, look no further. I'll tell your story the way you want it told. Follow along at Remotely We Are One, or visit my website at rickhaney. me for more information. And now, back to the show.

Kaleem: 24:36

Wow. Wow.

Rick: 24:38

mean, flexibility is, we keep saying it almost every time, Kaleem. Flexibility is the number one thing.

Kaleem: 24:44

It's king.

Rick: 24:45

it is king. It's, it's better than money.

Kaleem: 24:47

yeah. And the fact that you use recruiting and retainment as the major value propositions of implementing a more flexible, you know, working arrangement. I feel like most companies can understand that, you know, like, you brought it towards the problem that he was having and you're like, Hey, look, I mean, you could go about this one of two ways. You can continue the way you're going, or you could, or you can make a change. So I'm not really interesting about that part.

Gleb: 25:14

But you have to understand really what his specific problem is. Just the general statement of, like, giving numbers. Yes, we know that there were academic studies, which is very credible, showing that, You get 33 percent better retention of programmers, software programmers, if they have a flexible setting, like a hybrid setting versus five days a week in the office, that's great. Like we have that setting, but if you need to actually talk to the leader and say, who are you competing against? Look at their situation. Look at your situation. Look at how much better you can be. And what you can offer employees and tangibly do that. You can go right now. You can go to the Information Sciences Institute. You can go to the join us section, and you could see the flexible work policy outlined there publicly, and they're using that. And that's really helpful for them to recruit people in a way that, you know, obviously Apple can't because they're making people go to the office three days a week. And so you need to make it tangible and real and point out who are the real competitors, what they would gain, what the organization would gain from this more flexible approach. And of course, you need the other piece as well. It's not simply the retention of recruitment. It's also helping people know. That, hey, there are a lot of techniques that you can use to manage people in a hybrid setting to solve the problem of like, well, theoretically, it would be good for retention recruitment, but I don't know how to manage people in these settings, so I'm just going to go with what I know, because I don't know how to do anything else, like, even if it's better for retention recruitment. So you have to solve both problems at once, the status quo problem and the functional fixedness problem.

Rick: 26:51

Wow. Fascinating. I think, in my opinion anyway. Effective management, since we're talking about management. Effective management starts with effective onboarding, which Dr. Knobloch specifically mentioned you helped him with. So, what were some of the common challenges that you've seen with remote onboarding, and can you mention anything specific that they implemented at USC?

Gleb: 27:17

Sure, happy to. And this is something that I work with craig Knobloch. I worked with Atlassian on how to get their junior staff addressed. This is a common problem. Lots of companies have this challenge. So what you want to do when you're thinking about onboarding in remote settings is to understand what are people's actual challenges. What do they not have?

Rick: 27:41

Okay.

Gleb: 27:41

one is technology and the tech stack and the hardware and the office furniture in their home offices. So that's something important that they don't have. So what we did was we did a thorough survey of what kind of technology, hardware, what kind of the office furniture were actually being used. So this was in the fall off 2021. And a lot of their staff already purchased furniture already purchased some technology for themselves. So we did some surveys of their staff to see. Okay, what are you actually using? What's beneficial for you? What are some best practices that we can take? From the kind of technology and furniture that you already have for yourself. And then we compile the list of technology and furniture. That would be a really good setup for new people and for anyone. And then we made it available. We said, we'd get that technology for you. We'd get that furniture for you. If the technology is hard to set up, we'd have someone from the university come to help you set it up. If it's the furniture is hard to set up, like a standing desk, somebody wants. We're going to have someone come and help you set up the standing desk so they're actually paying and providing that technology. And the nice thing about having a standardized list of technology is that the IT from the Information Sciences Institute can actually support them if they need to fix any aspects of technology. So that's kind of on the one hand, like, and that's something that a lot of companies just don't do. They only provide a laptop. And that's fundamentally insufficient. You need good video, you need good audio. You need all this other tech stuff that depends on whatever you need for them. They had two monitors, for example, because of the kind of stuff that they were using. You need standing desks, many other things that are very important for people who are working remotely. So that's kind of one. The second is connections inside the company. I mean, and I'm not talking here, but you need to figure out how to onboard people by training them. Having policy documents. One of the fundamental things about remote work is that it's different than in person work in that you need to have a lot more things written down. So you need to have more written down structure, policies, processes. And so we had a lot more writing down. It's something I like to call the clarity canvas. It's where each team writes down, what are your goals, short term, medium term? What are your structures, policies, roles in the team? How do you collaborate together? What are the expectations for communication? For using which tools, how often you communicate, so that is going to be an important aspect of things. Another is going to be a personal user manual, where each person, because it's hard to get to know other people when you're working remotely, so each person shares a personal user manual about themselves, what they like, what they don't like, how they like to collaborate together, how they like to communicate, when they like to work. So that people who are especially new can pull up the personal user manuals of all existing employees with whom they need to collaborate and start working with them more effectively. And so they develop their own personal user manual and other people can work with them effectively. So that's another thing that's It's quite valuable. And the third area is mentoring. So you need mentors, people who would help you. So at least two mentors, one person from your own team. So who can help you with your team's dynamics, with your actual stuff that you need to get done with what the team culture looks like. And then somebody from another part of the organization, because one of the biggest challenges for remote workers is forming ties across the organization. And that compared to people who are working in the office. So somebody whose goal it is to help you form ties, introduce you to other people across the organization, who it will be helpful for you to know, and helping you with broader organizational culture and career development across the organization. So having those two mentors, not one mentor, but two mentors on whom you can rely and having a structured mentoring program where if you don't happen to not fit, Your personality wise with your initial mentors, they can find different mentor. They can give coaching to you how to get mentored They can evaluate the program how it's going Change up your mentors over time so that you meet new people fresh people So having that structured mentoring program is very very valuable So those are the three aspects that I would say would be especially important that are distinct For onboarding, I'm not going into all the other aspects of onboarding that are going to be similar to in person onboarding. I'm going to the ones that are different and that need to be taken care of. If you want to have successful onboarding experiences for remote workers.

Kaleem: 32:36

Yeah, I love the cohort thing. In higher ed, we had faculty learning communities for the first faculty who got hired that year and they stayed together over Two years actually not just one year two years and it was a really great way For you to kind of build some sort of community with other new employees, you know, you'd have varying ages varying departments. So I love that idea. I think Cohorts and mentoring are really really important. Moving on to like a lot of the research there has been a good amount of research lately on remote work. We've had both Dr. Nick bloom and Dr. Kelly Moynihan on the show. They talked about their studies. A lot of studies around productivity and the future of the gig economy. But there are just so many people out there that are saying. You know, remote work is dead. Remote work is dying. The numbers are lower than they ever have been. But in a recent flex index, research study, they actually showed something a little opposite of what most people are saying. They showed something, like, in January of 23, there are X amount of people that had flexibility. And now later in the year, it's the more people are offering flexible work arrangements than they were in the same year. So you've been doing this a while, right? Obviously the pandemic expedited a lot of things for you. And lots of us here in your opinion, Where do you think all this is heading? I mean, I know everyone

Gleb: 34:10

Mhm.

Kaleem: 34:11

you to tell a future. We have to ask you the question, you know? Where do you think this is heading?

Gleb: 34:15

So I think first I want to talk about what we're seeing. So we're indeed seeing right now that more people are returning to the office, although it's kind of a very small amount of increase over the course of the year. I think, for example, the castle systems barometer last a year ago was around maybe about 50 percent of office occupancy. The latest numbers are like 51. 5%. So very, very small increase, but there isn't Notable, even though a small increase in office occupancy. And so we do see that there's somewhat of an increase, but this increase, that means that there are still tons of people who are spending time working remotely full time or part time in a, meaning in a hybrid modality. And productivity wise as Nick Blum probably told you. We've been seeing that remote work is going to be more productive for individual work, but less productive for collaborative work. And so that is a challenge for remote work. So unless you manage people effectively, the typical thing is that you don't know how to manage people effectively. That's why individual work is fine, but collaborative work is not so fine. And so you can develop effective techniques for managing and collaborating in the remote settings, but it's quite a bit harder to do. And so we haven't yet fully figured all of that out. And most managers just try to use office based methods. That's the functional fixedness. Whereas if you look at purely at hybrid work, That's purely more productive than there There is absolutely no reason for remote capable workers to work in the office full time. Hybrid work is going to be better from a perspective of retention, recruitment, morale, engagement, productivity, all of these other factors. Now. What we're going to see in the future is we're going to see better and better technologies, and I'm already seeing that. So, for example, one of the biggest challenges for remote work is innovation, and I'm sure you've heard that. There's been studies showing that innovation is lower for remote work. And that happens because people are unable to collaborate together as effectively using old school methods. Now, I was working with a client of a technology service provider. That indeed, was having some challenges with innovation. They weren't coming up with stuff as quickly. They were thinking of like, well, they had an office space. It was 120 people company. It is 120 people company. They had office space of about 1. 2 million that they were paying per year. So 1. 2 million per year. And they were thinking, do we give up this office space? Do we not? They were seeing that their productivity is great. The collaboration is quite good. But their innovation is lower than it was. And so I worked with them to address the innovation problem. And what we used was generative AI. And so what's generative AI is problematic from the perspective of hallucinations, right? They come up with the bullshit all the time. But, you know, it's good because it has some good ideas. It's really good for generating lots of ideas. And some of those ideas, like I said, are Not going to be helpful, but lots of them. And honestly, the brainstorming session, you'll see a lot of bullshit as well. Right? And so if you use generative AI for brainstorming, for generating ideas, that's very helpful. So one person, instead of having like six people in the room, one person can just work with generative AI. to brainstorm lots of ideas, and then they can bring those ideas. They can filter some of them. They'll then they'll bring those ideas to a remote meeting with their colleagues and filtering, evaluating ideas is much easier in the remote meeting than actually brainstorming ideas. And so they figured out that like, Oh, well that works. We can just have people brainstorm ideas and then bring ideas and then we'll just evaluate them in the remote meeting. We don't need to go to the office to brainstorm ideas that's not necessary. And so they let go of their office space and they decided that if they want to get together, they'll only use flex space. And so they saved 1. 2 million and they solved the problem of innovation. Now their innovation is actually back to the, what it was before the start of the pandemic. And so that is how technology is facilitating easier and easier remote work. And of course, generative AI is helpful in many other ways. So for example, if companies are training it on their data, and you're able to extract data from the company's records in a way that you would have previously had to go to an employee who was by you in the cubicle and ask them some questions, which is harder to do in remote work because it takes some time and there's friction. But if you can use generative AI to do that makes things much easier. So you're already seeing remote work becoming easier and easier through better technology. And of course, generative AI is only going to get better and better. And we're having other technology, like augmented reality glasses coming from Meta, coming from Apple, we're seeing virtual reality getting better. But I think generative AI especially is right now making remote work better. So given that technology is making remote work easier and easier, well, you know what happens to people who stand against technology? They don't really succeed.

Kaleem: 39:17

Come on.

Gleb: 39:18

given, Yeah. yeah, exactly, exactly. So given that, I think that over time, while we will still see in the near future a short term rise in people going to the office, in the longer term, within the next several years, there will be an increase in remote work just because it's easier and easier. Also, going back to the flex index that you mentioned before, We know that younger companies have much more flexibility than traditional companies. And so as those companies grow, that's going to be another tendency that will help more people work remotely more of the time.

Kaleem: 39:56

so don't read the headlines people don't just read the headlines and just but I mean don't just read it dig into it.

Rick: 40:03

The headlines are written to make people click, and there's a reason for that.

Kaleem: 40:07

right. We're not talking, you're not seeing headlines about the 10 new startups that got funding last month that are a hundred percent remote. Like all of these statistics that are coming out are all about the big school companies. So yeah, don't,

Rick: 40:20

Yeah.

Kaleem: 40:20

victim. Don't fall

Rick: 40:21

Yeah. So, Dr. Gleb, could you be so kind as to share with us A comical or inspiring moment you have had while working remotely?

Gleb: 40:32

Sure. Happy to. So if you look behind me, you'll see weights and that's because one of the things I do is I work out between breaks during meetings. And so then I was doing a doing meeting with somebody else and you know, they're kind of visible and they're like, Oh, is that weights behind you? Oh, and they're like, I'm like, yeah, sure. I moved over. I showed them the weights and they're like, and then they moved over and there were weights right behind them, behind them. And they apparently like were doing the same thing. Like during breaks between meetings, there's like, Oh, you know, I'll take like five minutes. Do some exercises, so it's like, Oh, we kind of bonded over that. So that was a really cool thing. And I think that's something that is really important for remote work, because we know that people tend to move around less and tend to exercise less in remote work. So you need to deliberately build in certain ways that you can address that problem or associated with lower physical activity with remote work. So I built it in by just making it super easy for myself to do exercises while working remotely. And he did the same thing. And I'm like, that's great that, that like, you know, we're both solving the problem in that way.

Kaleem: 41:38

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, Dr. Gleb, were you both basically shaking the thing, exercising with the weights, just shaking the, what's that thing called? Is that Is back there What's that called The sake weights The Shake wheight

Rick: 41:51

Heh. Yeah

Gleb: 41:52

No,

Kaleem: 41:59

can't work, can it, Dr. Gleb? Have you seen it? The shake weight? You know what I'm talking about? Oh my gosh. Oh shit. You got to definitely Google that after this. It's like a dumbbell that's on like a, uh, like a spring

Rick: 42:12

Yeah.

Kaleem: 42:12

you shake it and it just shakes your whole body. It's like, you're getting so jacked with the shake.

Rick: 42:17

Except you're not. You just look like an

Gleb: 42:19

No, that's silly. That's silly. I mean, uh, this is like no pain, no gain. Your muscles need to, like the way that your muscles actually improve is because they have micro tears And then they need to build up.

Kaleem: 42:31

That's awesome.

Rick: 42:32

So, Dr. Gleb, where can our listeners and viewers find you? What's the best place you can be found?

Gleb: 42:37

Sure. So you can find my books easily on Amazon, just Dr. Gleb Sapursky. You'll find my books, Return to the Office and Leading Hybrid and Remote Teams. It's the most relevant for remote work for myself. You can go to disaster avoidance experts that come and there's a contact form. Happy to chat to anyone. So disaster avoidance experts that come contact form and then, of course, I'm easily available on LinkedIn. I have a lot of articles, lots of followers, so just connect with me there and tell me that you saw me on remotely one or you heard me on the remotely one. If, uh, you don't tell me that, I will not accept your connection request because I get a lot of random spam. So, just make sure that you tell me that you saw me or heard me on Remote Day 1 and then I'll accept your connection request. And there will be parties on LinkedIn.

Kaleem: 43:22

Yes,

Rick: 43:23

Oh my gosh!

Kaleem: 43:24

you! He's throwing in the callback! Oh, thank you so much,

Rick: 43:29

yes. I know I speak for Kaleem as well when I say this is going to be a gemstone of the, RemotelyOne's program. You have so much intelligence and experience behind you and I'm going to listen to this episode frequently because there's just so much here. Thank you.

Gleb: 43:43

This was fun.

Kaleem: 43:44

All right. Well, we'll talk to you later, man. Peace.