Be free from the fear of conflict with Jerry Fu: Resilience in Life and Leadership Episode 026

Stephanie talks with Jerry Fu about the importance of positive conflict resolution.

Jerry is a conflict resolution coach for Asian-American leaders. He started coaching in 2017 to help other Asian-American professionals deal with the challenges they encounter at work, with their families, and within themselves.
Prior to starting his coaching business, Jerry worked as a pharmacist and began facilitating leadership workshops in 2012. Today, Jerry offers a range of coaching services, which includes individual coaching, group workshops, and keynote presentations. To contact him, visit his coaching website at https://www.adaptingleaders.com. In his free time, Jerry enjoys travel, trying new restaurants, and lots and lots of salsa dancing.

https://www.adaptingleaders.com/

Everyone has resilience, but what does that mean and how to we use it in life and leadership? Join Stephanie Olson, expert in resiliency and trauma, every week as she talks to other experts living lives of resilience. Stephanie also shares her own stories of addictions, disordered eating, domestic and sexual violence, abandonment, and trauma; and shares the everyday struggles and joys of everyday life. As a wife, mom, and CEO she gives commentaries, and, sometimes a few rants, to shed light on what makes a person resilient. So, if you have experienced adversity in life in any way, and you want to learn how to better lead your family, your workplace, and, well, your life, this podcast is for you!

https://stephanieolson.com

Transcript

Stephanie Olson: 0:03

Welcome to resilience in life and leadership with your host Stephanie Olson. Hello, and welcome to resilience in life and leadership. And I'm so excited to have Jerry foo with me today. Jerry is a conflict resolution coach who helps Asian American leaders advance in their career and life journeys. Having taken on several pharmacy leadership roles, Jerry started coaching in 2017. To help other Asian American professionals deal with the conflict they encounter at work with their culture and within themselves. Now, prior to starting his coaching business, Jerry served as a pharmacist and began facilitating leadership workshops in 2012. And today, Jerry offers a range of coaching services, which including individual coaching group workshops, and Keynote presentations, he has appeared on over 60 podcasts, and plans to appear in plenty more. And to learn more about him and we will repeat this you can go to adapting leaders.com welcome Jerry to the podcast. So glad you're here.

Jerry Fu: 1:15

Thanks for having me.

Stephanie Olson: 1:16

Absolutely. So now, conflict resolution, none of us really need that we don't really deal in conflicts on a day to day basis, right? Oh, my goodness. It's not a thing. So tell me how you got into conflict resolution. Pharmacy seems kind of straightforward. So with conflict resolution, how did you start that?

Jerry Fu: 1:41

Well, I mean, ironically, it started in my pharmacy career, which I'm happy to elaborate on. So basically, right. Conflict was not a fun subject growing up because being Asian American, right, it's, we're meant to be conflict averse, or at least that's the default, where they say, hey, just keep it to yourself. Don't vent your frustrations. It's not worth like, if you you might lose the relationship, or you might lose whatever benefit you get from the relationship if you upset them. So just don't say anything if they upset you. Yeah, right. And then compound this with retail pharmacy job I started in where customer service wasn't, hey, let's work through something. It is no, like, if they're upset, you did something wrong, and you placate them. So we don't lose their business. Right. And so just double layered like aversion and just taking the path of least resistance. Even though you hated yourself going home, you wondered, when am I going to have a spine to actually stand up for myself when things are difficult. And so when I transitioned out of that retail job, I managed to leverage my network to get a teaching jobs through a pharmacy consulting company, which is what I used it for. I had a really add mentality of well, as long as I tell my boss, as long as I have a really good story as to why didn't get the job done. They should understand doesn't work. And so yeah, you know, my boss upset with me and my

Stephanie Olson: 3:07

It doesn't. conflict diversion. And I'm just like, I don't want to hear her upset with me already. So I'm just going to disengage. And eventually, after 11 months, the company said, Nope, we've had enough doesn't matter what's going on over there. We paid you do a job. If you're not going to get done. You need to go and it was my fault. Like I like I said, right. I wasn't in this mentality of hey, can you do a job? Find a way to do it? It is? Oh, well, you know, surely there's a reason I couldn't give that would when they would understand why I didn't do it. And so that was a tough wake up call. I didn't appreciate at the time, but it really was, you know, the wake up call. I needed to realize, hey, you know what, what you're doing isn't working. And so, the next job I landed, independent pharmacy where for my paychecks bounce filming for crooked doctors. Oh my gosh.

Jerry Fu: 3:56

Ah, yeah, right. Yeah. Just just bam, bam, right to the face. And well, again, right, I was just being naive. I had no idea. I was desperate for work. And, yeah, Houston is a huge scene for drug diversion. And at this point, I was like, Well, you know, I have no idea what's going on. So let me just let me just, you know, take what I can and see what happens. If the first check bounced. It was like he called my boss called me and said, hey, yeah, sorry about that. Well, we'll fix it. I said, Okay, that's weird. But you know, one time Sure, yeah. But the problem was when the checks two, three and four baths, keep in mind, I was sending checks home, I didn't have a local bank account. And so when I called, you know, my home to say, Hey, did you know about this? And they said, hey, yeah, but you know, we're just afraid to tell you and it's like, no, you don't hide bad news for me because you're afraid I can't handle it. Like, that's a bad reason. So again, just it runs in the family. Right? And so, um, you know, yeah, how do you confront the bosses ripping you off? Like, I don't know. All I know is I just want to vent frustration from the side. And you know, my colleagues would eventually tell my boss and he's like, Yeah, you know, I gotta keep this guy on the hook or I can't have any pharmacy to run. And so basically, yeah, after nine months of that, you know, very misguided view of grace didn't want to interest this. Eventually, my friends got me out of that job got me on with with Windows more legit, but couldn't pay me more than eight hours a week. And so they said, Well, if you want more hours have a location in Austin, which is two and a half hours away. Go ahead and work there. And so I, again, beggars can't be choosers, I go work out there. And people are like, you can wind up in worse places. That's it. Yeah, that's fair. But it just wasn't home. Right. I had no idea movement, like, right and look like at this point. And so that summer was key, because I was asked by some friends who work for a pharmacy leadership nonprofit that I know if they're my fraternity to say, hey, one of our facilitator spots opened up. And we know you've been facilitating leadership's on the fraternity side, could you help on the leadership side? And I said, Absolutely. I love these guys a lot. And so I helped teach this workshop. And somehow that unlock something and because for a while, so leadership is hard. I don't like being bad at it, I'll never be good at it. So I'm just going to avoid them. And now it was more of a hey, what if I could be good at leadership? What kind of work would that involve how to carry myself, so I gave myself permission to actually possibly be good at this. And so that's what that helped unlock for me. And so later that fall, the company gave me the chance to other state parks, I'm in Austin with a great work team, or take on a management position that opened up in Houston. And I said, I can't stay safe, can't stay scared. I want to come home. I gotta take this. And so the following year, I proceeded to get written up because I have missions that are no, that's my fault. I got Tahitians that are behaving badly. And I'm not disciplining them or firing. And so management said, Okay, their work performance is a problem and your passivity is still a problem. And so, you know, again, just okay, how do I get better at this? How do I fight through this, manage to convince one of the most problematic Tech really good work, the biggest bad apple to quit? And that was just more luck than skill. And as you get out of the doghouse, right, as the company had their funding fold. And so, you know, I was already looking to leave. But, you know, that was just a little more urgent. And so the only reason I get an interview with my next company was that I had leadership experience on my resume. So wow, that was a good decision. You know, I am so glad that leadership saved my career. With that said, though, that job will be less than 11 months, because the revenue wasn't there. And, and that's when I started to notice that a lot of smaller companies in pharmacy don't last very long, because their business models just don't, they're not sustainable. And so what I tell people is that these jobs are like icebergs. You know, it's nice having more icebergs to hop to when the last one melts, but they're still melting. So Right. Um, yeah, so when my last job went under About five years ago, I said, you know, tired of fighting insurance companies and tired of chasing doctors for scripts, but I love teaching leadership workshops, which I've done consistently since 2012. What would a career in coaching facilitated look like? You know, when I have a heart for development now, people develop? It's how can I make this a career still very scared of failing rejection? You know, it's more of a hobby than career pivot. And it took a pandemic stuff for me to realize, you know, what, how much longer am I going to put this off? And so yeah, October 2020, finally found the LLC got the website up. Now let's try circle fail, just trying to still transition, I still have a day job as a pharmacist and tried to figure out a, you know, a concrete exit strategy, because the first year you know, I was just happy just to cover my expenses, right revenue. But now, again, right? Is this a hobby? Or is this a company? So here, we are just trying to beat people as I as I built my business?

Stephanie Olson: 8:55

Yeah, I'll tell you the pandemic made you pivot. And if you didn't, it was definitely a really difficult time. And, and your website is great. I love it. And you are also a salsa dancer. So that's something I love seeing. So we could talk a little bit more about that later. But now I think so many people look like you were just, you know, being in conflict resolution was just meant to be because you had so many opportunities to experience conflict resolution. But I think so many people view conflict as always a negative thing, when in fact, conflict isn't necessarily just a negative thing. It can lead to very positive things. Can you speak to that at all?

Jerry Fu: 9:47

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, and don't get me wrong, guys, like a big part of me still is a default to write. I just hate it when people are upset with me. Yeah, right. Like my lead technician every time we would pull each other aside. So Before, you know, I would pull the nice aside and say, Hey, did you send it to talk to us to go what I do, right? And then same thing with me though she would pull me aside, hey, I need to talk to you. So what I do, right? That's before anything comes up. And so, you know, after enough passive aggressive ups with other conflict averse people on the team, yeah, take everybody aside and said, Hey, look, you know what the blessing conflict is? You're finally honest with each other, right? You're finally, like, now we can actually build a real relationship because you aren't finally you stopped trying to hide what you were upset about. And now we can now that it's out in the open, we can actually trust it in a healthy way. Right? We'll be sure things, you know, stay civil, they don't get out of hand, like people, people don't lose their tempers. And you know, now that we're finally honest about what we don't like, or you know, what we're sad about now, we can actually do something to reconcile about it instead of just hiding behind. Oh, no, I'm not that upset with you. No, no, no, no. And so, yeah, the conflict, the pain may feel like a negative, but it really is. But I mean, if if pain were always a negative, no one would exercise, right? Like no one. No one would risk by asking people out, yeah, don't don't have kids, if you don't like they don't have kids. And that's the birth don't talk about raising them. Right. Yeah, right. So yeah, basically, if you're willing to see that pain can be a blessing in this case, where it's like, because that's the way yeah, that leads to real healing. This, the better everyone off is to realize, hey, you know what, we can disagree about things. And we can still enjoy being around each other.

Stephanie Olson: 11:42

Because ultimately, when you don't deal with conflict, what what can happen and correct me if I'm wrong, but you start to get resentful. Don't I mean, if you're building that, you know, I'm so frustrated with this, and then you never address it, that can just build into some serious resentment.

Jerry Fu: 12:02

Well, and that's basically what happens, right? And I, I'll tell, I'll tell this story, you know, there was a friend I grew up with, and, you know, we connected later in life, he picked up some habits that I didn't like, basically, he would, you know, whenever he would want to hang out and give a suggestion, and then you basically insulted and do something else that really wasn't that fun. And, you know, he wouldn't enjoy it either. Like, that was the worst part, like, Hey, do you want it cyst on it didn't pan out terribly. And then we're just kind of like, okay, and, you know, after a while, I just didn't know how to confront him. Because the times where I did get upset with him, he just basically flipped it back on me and say, basically, no, like, he shouldn't be that mad at me. And which wasn't healthy either. And so you know, he's not going to be coachable or receptive to my feedback. I just stopped. And so eventually, you know, he would keep reaching out, I somehow managed to miss him or ignore him. And then, you know, I got to a point where, like, I basically put him on mute. And then, like, he out of desperation, at one point, he tried to invite me to his wedding, like this is weird, like communication have been absent for several years now. And, you know, he invited me to his wedding. I can't make it because, you know, it's short notice, and I'm working that weekend. And basically in his eyes, just like, Okay, give up. Right, you know, I tried to reach out to you. And you know, part of it is just you know, elusiveness makes people work harder, right? When people take you for granted, and they don't contact you. But as soon as you make it hard to get, yes, they're like, working twice as hard to anyway, that's a whole nother conversation. But point being right, like my passivity, like, killed the friendship, because I didn't even have a chance to tell him exactly why I was upset with him. Right. And I was I just let so much resentment build up that it pretty much built a wall between us and I'm just like, I don't even know how to break through this without looking like clinically scarred. Right. And so yeah, I mean, it's, it's a it's a terrible thing. And when you realize, you know, what, if I'm going to have a falling out with someone, at least they know exactly why I'm so dumb, right? Because you're gonna lose the relationship anyway, if you don't bring this up. So exactly, rather go down swinging. That's good. Luck.

Stephanie Olson: 14:12

So So talk about your approach, what's the best way to approach handling conflict, resolving conflict, things?

Jerry Fu: 14:20

Yeah, so the recipe that I guess I've perfected over my own time. And with the help of resources given to me, I my step, my process involves five steps. So the first is to imagine what a successful conversation would sound like to say, hey, you know what? Maybe it could be that easy, where you tell a roommate, hey, you know, could you just stop leaving dirty dishes in the sink? Just kind of policy. And, you know, we'd rather each person clean their own dishes, right? Yeah, properly. Is that okay? Oh, yeah. Sorry about that. Right. It could be that easy, but you know, right. So you kind of give yourself permission to think hey, you know what, maybe this conversation could go well, it can be it can be easy, you know. And so you'll allow yourself to entertain that. The second step is to find 10 seconds of courage to reach out. So a lot of people think, Oh, I got to put on my whole superhero costume before I engage the fire or the disaster. And it's like, if you wait until you feel like you're ready, that may be three months, six months, a year, right? And now either the building has burned down, or the company has died. And you know, friendship is gone. Right. Done. So yeah. So you see the structure stuff for 10 seconds to say, Okay, let me send that email, send that text, pick up the phone. And then that sets things in motion and then locks the gate behind, because now you can't go back to comfort and default, right? Usually, that's enough to be like up, okay, the older it's starting to roll, okay, I can't do this. And so that's what helped me out when I realized, you know what, I can just do this for 10 seconds, I'm just send that email, right. Third step script, your critical moves. So on the first step, you know, we thought, okay, well, how could this go? Well, and third step now. Okay. Let me make sure I address everything I need to address unanticipated pushback I might get right. So in this case, right, let's say I take this my situation that I said, and let me you know, overlay this framework. So right, we said, Okay, first that message says, hey, you know what? Well, hello, Frank. Hey, Frank. You know what, maybe, you know, you keep giving me vague promises, and we talk we keep, we keep doing things that aren't fun. You know, that you pick, you know, could it could I pick something and you maybe use it for my ID instead? It's like, oh, yeah, you know what, I have a good track record, like, Yeah, let's, let's go with something you tried. Right? Maybe it could be this simple. It wouldn't be but maybe it could be. Right. Okay. Second step. Hey, you know what, let me you know, let me just pick up the phone right now. Hey, Frank, let me get him on the phone. Just pick him up, right. I'm just dial this before. Third step. Okay. You know what, he's probably going to push back the way he has previously, you know, he's gonna say, oh, you know, don't say that. Really? It's not, it's not that big of a deal. Is it? And you know, now I need to start, don't let things rattle around in my head, right? Put it on paper. Okay, what are some possible pushback? Things he's gonna give me? How am I going to respond to that, right? Because if you keep everything up here, you're probably gonna forget in the heat of the moment. So go ahead and organize your thoughts. And you know, put them into logical flow on paper so you can see for yourself, right, step four is to rehearse. Right? So now trained in the dojo before you fight on the street, right? Hey, let me get another friend to roleplay. Hey, you know, can you pretend to be frank, and I'm going to try to coach him through some habits. I want him to stop. Can you help me kind of get some reps in before game time? And then five? Step five, do it right. The cost of comfort is closure. Right? If you do not, if you stay in comfort, you will never experience closure and closure, even if the conversation goes poorly, right, as we said, at least he knows why I'm mad at him. Yeah, but this off my chest, right?

Stephanie Olson: 17:45

Yeah, that's really good. So what if somebody is not receiving the conflict? Well, because sometimes you have conflict with someone, you share it with them. And they're like, Oh, I didn't even realize I was doing that. Sorry, no big deal. But other times, they're not taking it. You know, you got to be introspective and be a little humble, I think be coachable to receive conflict. So what if somebody's not receiving that well?

Jerry Fu: 18:11

That's a great question, right? Because people get defensive, right? Even if you come in with open hands, and you do your best to be like, Okay, Mommy has to put the bandaid on, you know, the peroxide on, it's gonna stick a little No, I don't. Okay. So, part of it is to pay safely. One ways of saying is to position yourself as a god, right? And to just explain to them, Hey, you have choices, right? I'm bringing something to your attention. Do you want to talk about it? Right? And initially, they'll say, oh, yeah, sure, you know, what's going on? Right? And you start to bring it up and say, hey, you know what, you know, this really isn't that big a deal? Like I'm, I really don't want to impact this any further. So at that point, right. Remember to respect their decisions, right? And say, hey, look, it's your choice. Here are the consequences of what will happen if you we do not continue this conversation. Right? Right. Say, Hey, look, you know, I've lost the, I'm struggling to write, I'm starting to lose respect for you, because you keep basically wasting my time with, you know, unqualified activities are not fun stuff that's not fun or meaningful for this relationship. Right? So if you are not going to hear my feedback, and that's your choice, I'll respect that. Just understand, you know, say something like, I'm not going to I know, I'm not sure how much more time I'm going to make this friendship, right. You don't have to threaten them if they come across as threat, but it's just a consequence. You're just saying, hey, look, if we don't, you know, both have a say in how we want to spend time together. I really don't see the point in hanging out, right. And so when you explain to them, Hey, these are consequences that are happening, you know, then maybe they reconsider. But even if they refuse to acknowledge the evidence you're giving them then say, hey, look, you know, ideally, there's a way maybe you'll come up I'm hoping you come around Hopefully you'll have this but if not, hey, look, this is the path we're going down and it's gonna stay this way. Right. And so yeah, I mean, it's easy to talk about now, because this is hypotheticals

Stephanie Olson: 20:08

but yeah, no emotion and yeah.

Jerry Fu: 20:12

But hopefully people do get to that point where you realize, you know what, I have a choice. I don't have to settle for subpar friendships, right, I have to say and whether or not and I used to do that, see, I'm just like, oh, like, this friendship isn't really fun or meaningful or helpful. But I don't want to say I want to kiss you know, that's just me to tell them hey, you know what, I don't think I want to be friends anymore. Right? At least have a reason except that you don't sell while you're you're really annoying, right? That doesn't help. But the feedback? Just yeah, right. Just like you just you just sit and wallow in self pity every time we hang out. That doesn't work. But if you just tell them, hey, look, give us specifics. I talked to evidence and say, hey, look, every conversation seems to be about why you're complaining Why you're single, as opposed to, you know, trying to take action steps as to what, you know, you could do to actually go on more dates or to get get a girlfriend or something like that, right? And if all you're gonna do is complain, I really don't see the point in hanging out, right? Something like that. Right? Yeah. And at least this way, now, again, your positions off as a guide. Hey, you know, these are the consequences of your complaining, you know, you're going to scare away a lot of your friends. You're just following in and whining. If you find a way to stop that, you know, what if what if you've got results in your life so that you didn't have to complain?

Stephanie Olson: 21:22

Yeah, yeah, things like that. Right. I like that. So what is your suggestion on how to receive conflict? If somebody comes to you?

Jerry Fu: 21:34

Yeah. If you're not the initiator? Oh, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Um, the first thing that

Stephanie Olson: 21:39

Not that that would ever happen.

Jerry Fu: 21:44

Absolutely. You know, the first thing I would tell people is, you know, remember that it is done out of love. It is done for your benefit. There is something that there's even if you don't agree with the angle, trust that if you look, if you look for the benefit, and how you can, you know, do something better, even if it's not your fault. You know, it is it is good. You know, that's the first thing I would say number two, listen, to listen and not listen to interrupt, right. Like the classic Stephen Covey seek first to understand that he understood. So listen. Yeah, because I'll admit, it's a great defense mechanism. Either way, because if you want the conversation to go well, I always listen, like if my girlfriend is mad at me, or like, someone's upset with me, I make sure. I just listened to listen. And you know, even if they want to be mad at me still, like, they can't get as mad because yeah, what Jerry, listen to me. Yeah, it's, it's, it's yeah. So and then after that, you put the responsibility and initiative on yourself to say, Okay, what do you suggest I do differently? And now, right, it's hard to get mad at someone who's asking for your opinion. Yeah. Right. And so again, use this to your advantage. Hey, okay, I'm going to stay coachable. That's the first thing I would say, hey, well, I'm all the full time stay coachable. And so okay, what do you need me to do differently? Okay. And if you like this suggestion, well offer something else. Right. And so from there, it's like, okay, yeah, and offer even offer, okay, check with me in a week, right? I'm gonna try this out and check with me and let me know how to work with it. And when you receive it that way, right. People will say things like, Matthew. Jerry took that really well. Yeah. And then you know, what, not just because here's the thing, guys, if you do, if you only do that, just to keep them from getting mad at you, they're gonna blow up twice as hard when you don't actually write this feedback. So make sure you follow through, right? You might buy yourself time, right? And if that is your only goal, if you play the short game, you will you will lose the long game.

Stephanie Olson: 23:56

Right. I love that is that is really great advice and, and not easy advice, but really important to look at it that way. So what would you say are some common mistakes when dealing with conflict?

Jerry Fu: 24:12

Oh, man, I've made so many of them. Yeah, first of all avoidance, right? Oh, if I just keep my head in the sand, I'm going to hope that you know, this fire eventually will die out on this. Yes. Only problem is it's going to take down everything else in the process, right. If you think the problem will fix itself, you do not have a design mentality number one and number two, like it is not going to go well for you right because as long as the source of your resentment is there and has not gone away, it will continue to generate resentment. Right. Yeah. And so the, the the sub, the side product of that avoidance is now overcompensation, right. Let's say a technician, you know, Miss types of prescription, right? And then it's like Okay, the first time I see it, well, maybe it was just an x then maybe we're just busy. And let me just fix it just to compensate because it's where is the rush hour. So let me just get this stuff. But then it happens again. Now I have a pattern in front of me. And it's my choice to engage, right. But if I choose to continue to fix it, now I'm doing two jobs for the price of one. And now I'm going to get bummed out because I'm tired of fixing the same thing. And the technician has no idea that, you know, they're doing anything wrong, right? They don't even know that you're helping them. Right. And that is a bad system. Yeah, the third then mistake is charging in like thinking that oh, okay, I see a problem. And like, they didn't assess the situation before. Charging in, you know, and now I have to, you have to apologize twice, one for getting the story wrong. Number two, now, you've put people on defensive when they had no reason to be if you could approach to in a more civil way. And then finally, interrupting, interrupting is a big common mistake, right? And as soon as you rush to defend yourself, and then things just escalate very quickly, when people aren't listening to each other, and giving, because it's a sign of disrespect. Really, it's just like, oh, well, let me cut you off right there. Bad idea?

Stephanie Olson: 26:12

Yeah, I have the answer. You don't. I work with a group of leaders within my nonprofit organization, we actually just went through a conflict training or a day. And that is one of our biggest strengths. Were three very strong type a women, and we interrupt all of the time. The good news is we recognize we interrupt and so we say okay, wait, I just interrupted, we're starting to get much better. But that is, so it's just a really hard thing to break. But it is, it's rude. It's disrespectful. And yeah. Yeah, maybe you could help us. That's sure. Love that. Speaking of that, share some of the services that you have available, you've got them listed so clearly on your website, and it really is a great website. So share a little bit about the services that you offer.

Jerry Fu: 27:16

Yeah, um, so we'll start with the free stuff, because people like free free as always, if you're if coaching is beyond your budget, then you know, let's, we don't want to just throw you scraps. I mean, I mean, realistically, you're going to get scratched, because we know we're not running charities here. But yeah, at the very least, we want to give you something that is actionable, right? I have a free guide, you can download on the framework I went over for navigating difficult conversations, I have a case study that walk you through that. And so that's, that's free. Please use that and you know, apply yourself and transform it, transform your situations, transform your routine. The second thing you can do is a free 30 minute phone call, Hey, just tell me what you're working on. Right? Share your story shares a situation that you may need my help with. And that's no strings attached. Hey, you know what? All I would ask him to turn give it a testimonial or you know, refer a friend that would also need this help? Sure. cost me nothing. Third is free blog write on I summarize useful and interesting leadership books. So yeah, check those out. If you don't have time to read a just check out a blog post, see what you think. But the coaching services, in specific, I have a couple of different ones. And you know, while there, maybe I'll experiment with some new ones may have some old ones, but the main ones I offer are Yeah, dealing with conflict within, or conflict at work or conflict in your culture. Those are those are some standard packages. I also have a leadership essentials package where I give you my personal thesis on the nine essential skills and qualities every leader should have, you know, is the comprehensive note, that's why it's essential, right? Hey, just get better at these nine things. And you're probably going to see results. And then you have my everything but the kitchen sink, where I give you everything in my toolbox, whether it's books I read, or coaching techniques are other places where I trust, you know, information and resources to help me you know, either be more productive with my routine or trick myself into moving forward with with things that I struggle still. So those are there. And of course, everything is available either as an individual or a team effort. Like if you your company says hey, we want everybody to benefit from this. Okay, you know, let's get everybody to do a workshop together on things like fighting apathy, or burnout, recovery or leadership without titles. You know, I know a number of other topics that are exclusive to people who appreciate the leadership journey.

Stephanie Olson: 29:51

Yeah, so important. And all of these tools it would seem can be used whether in an organization a company or even just relationships that you deal with on a personal level as well?

Jerry Fu: 30:06

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, this. There's conflict everywhere. You know, and hey, they're really not that's really not that different, right? Like, I mean, I've said situations personally where, you know, yeah, when I started the first class director, my second day on the job, I found out, a newer guy was sexually harassing women in the class. And they're like, Jerry, your director, you got to deal with it. And I'm like, wow, you didn't give me a manual, right? You're just like, just run towards the gunfire. Alright, ah, then another time, I picked the roommate. And you know, again, you don't, you could Well, Google house or you just like how to Victor for me. I just couldn't give you that advice. But you know, in the heat of the moment, right. It's just like, I don't even know where to look. I don't know. He's gonna help me with this. Yeah. And so yeah, like, even though those are situations that I have grown through, and, you know, I'm happy to provide a roadmap to make life easier for other people who are dealing with similar situations,

Stephanie Olson: 30:52

right? Well, in some situations, I want to go back to the first one you said, because some situations you can you have time to learn some techniques. Others, it's boom, right now, I have to deal with this. I need to figure it out. So I would love to hear if you don't mind sharing just a little bit of how you dealt with that situation with your facilitating and someone is sexually harassing women in the classroom.

Jerry Fu: 31:17

Basically, yeah. So I'll make sure I set the stage properly. So yeah, I was a first class director. I told myself that that would be the one challenge one big challenge to come that year. And yeah, sudden death, right. Just boom, like I one of my one of the regulars in the class comes to me, she goes, Jerry, I will call him Nick, Nick is sexually harassing women in the class. Wow, you need to deal with it. And I was about to go on vacation. Like I had a trip planned, like far from you taking on this stuff. So secondly, on John, I'm about to go on vacation I'll have to deal with this night. And it's like, I can't even like sit this guy down to do it on the phone and hope he just doesn't hang up on me. Right. And so you know, I call Nick up, you know, 10 second suckers, right? Just counting. All right, well, you know, if the default is not acceptable, like if I just stay silent and stick my head in the sand, say, Guys, it's really not that bad. You know, guys, guys, right? Yeah, no one would take me seriously. And everyone would leave the class because there's a sexual predator around right doing things, right. And so, you know, call him up. I'm like, Hey, Nick. And I start with an apology. I'm just like, hey, man, if I said a bad tone for the way that, you know, we care if I carry myself, you know, I apologize. And he's like, oh, you know, yeah, I don't, I didn't think there's anything wrong. I'm just like, Okay, great. So, let me let me talk about something that did come to like light, and I need you to I need your help addressing this. And like, hey, look, you know, this is what's going on. And of course, he's like, Oh, I don't know what to talk about how they stopped me. And I just, you know, thinking on my feet, right, because I knew I could just be like, Oh, well, you know, yeah, never mind. Right? Yeah. And the phone call. And I, in my for some reason, again, this is just a miracle from God. And I'm just like, alright, I started to position myself as this guy. And I said, okay, like, from what I can tell, there's three possibilities between their what they're telling me what you're telling me. Number one is that you are right, and they are wrong, which means that, okay, if you're telling the truth, then more than likely, it's a misunderstanding. And if it's a misunderstanding, it is in your best interest to clear up that misunderstanding, make sure it doesn't happen again, and then everything's good, right? It doesn't have to be anything more than that. You know, because I'm not privy to the situation. I didn't see it for myself. So I'm not here to say, well, there's smoke, there's fire and then we flush is just okay. Look, if if you are if what you if you're maintaining innocence. This is how you keep your this right, right, and just say, hey, look, I didn't realize that what if that was offensive? Okay, yeah. Tell me what I did that that got you upset? Okay, sorry about that. I won't do it again, right? You weren't malicious or exploitative, or motives, we'll leave it at that. Possibility. Number two, they are right and you are wrong, which means you are lying to me. And that means you need to go apologize for the behavioral you know, is wrong, and make sure it doesn't happen again. And we will be keeping a close eye on you. Because, you know, we are happy to invite you into our church community and there are rules, you know, that right? Everyone safe and and respected. Right? And then okay, option number three, both sides maintain that they are right, which means now it's their word against yours, which means I have to ask you to leave because I've known them longer than I've known you. And, you know, what else is there? Right? And, again, I am telling them like, hey, look, Nick, I'm telling this for your benefit. I'm, I'm looking out for you because I want you to be part of this community. And if what they said is true, this is what it's going to take for you to stick around. And so now he realizes, Oh, you know what, okay, I'm gonna have to talk to a caller. I'm better sort things out with Emily kind of said, okay, yeah, just do it this weekend, right? Just take care of it before the week is over. And hopefully that should be the end of it. Sadly, turns out the option number two was correct. And you never saw it. Again, but Right, yeah, again, it's just part of it. It's another fun conversation about single's ministry and churches and what that leads to when you cast too big a net. And that's maybe we save that for another episode, but I would love that. But yeah, again, right. So yeah, this is me growing in the moment realizing, hey, what okay, this may not go well, but I have to tell them that I addressed it because anything less would be unacceptable for this,

Stephanie Olson: 35:29

right. I love that. And, you know, Jerry, what you're talking about? It takes it takes boldness. It takes a willingness to hear some things that you might not want to hear. But it is so important in any type of human relationship. I think that is fabulous. Are there any books that you would recommend for conflict resolution or leadership? Oh,

Jerry Fu: 35:58

yeah, I have plenty of the ones. The ones specific that helped me out though, happy to shout out for this one. What is called difficult conversations, easy enough to tap into the Amazon and just have a difficult conversation is that Whoo, wrote that. I'd have to look at it. I

Stephanie Olson: 36:14

wouldn't say it's like Henry Townsend, or somebody like that. Or John Thompson's. Yeah, he's somebody. I don't know who it is. But I read that book. fabulous book. Yeah.

Jerry Fu: 36:25

Yeah. It's, they provide a good framework, it, it, it's not to discount what they're doing, because it helped me out. It seems it can be it can feel very formal. And some people may not may or may not receive that well. But it is at least it's the starting point. And it is it's very helpful book. The other one that I took a lot of material from is the four conversations by Jeff and Laurie Ford. That was the first book that talks about specifically the closer conversation and say, hey, when expectations don't go according to plan, how are you going to address it? Hey, you got to be prompt, don't let them off the hook. Because if you let them off the hook, they're not going to take you seriously because there's no accountability, right? And then also, hey, apologize, even if it's not your fault, right? And, you know, affirm the relationship, and just take me to collaborate. Alright, you know, I need your help with this. You know, how do we make sure this doesn't happen again? Right. And so now, yeah, again, having like a lighted stairway to help you get to the destination, increases your chances successful? You always get there. No, but hey, you know what, you're still gonna make more progress if you never tried it. All.

Stephanie Olson: 37:31

Right. Oh, that's good. All right. Anything else that you'd like to share with listener, sir? Hmm, um, good stuff.

Jerry Fu: 37:42

Oh, absolutely. No, happy to be generous. So. I mean, we can talk about the parallels of salsa dancing on the dance floor, leading beyond the dance floor. So for that journey, guys, it's a fun one. So basically, it was a hobby I never would have expected for myself. Hmm. So in college, they had a spring formal with salsa dancing, and it was a terrible lesson. And, you know, again, I don't like failure, don't like looking incompetent. So I just shelve that for like, forever. Yeah. And then, when I got to pharmacy school, though, my friend there said, Hey, you got to give another shot. And by the third year in school, you know, My grace is solidified. And I was tired of studying. So I actually spent some time and effort trying to get real lessons got to a point where I actually really started to enjoy it. And right as I got started to enjoy it, I graduated and moved to a city that had the salsa dancing. Oh, wow. It stayed dormant for a while, you know, I was in this bad cycle of rust and lack of confidence, but I miss it. And so that went on for several years before I moved back to Houston where there was more salsa dancing, but still stayed dormant. Most of the friends that I met the second time around Houston because I was originally a for undergrad. Most of the friends I met the second time around me and used to stepping country dancing. So still dormant, but at least I was dancing more. Yes. You know, you just kind of conformed to your peers, whether whatever they're doing okay, they're all to stepping. Okay, let me learn this. And then I tell people about eight years ago, Venezuelan friend invited me to a free salsa dancing event downtown. You know what, I hadn't done this in a while, you know, let me let me see what's going on. All it took stuff was one skill, pretty blonde on the dance. I got to dance with her. And I get and I'm locked in, right? I'm like, I make sure my wife's not playing King. I'm in the zone for the entire song. And she gives me a hug afterwards. And I just said to myself, Why did I stay away from this for so long? And I said alright, I'm back. And by then I was burnt out on volunteers and at the church and so I was like, Okay, let me just replace all this with salsa dancing week after week and don't get me wrong stuff like when you have no reputation on the dance floor. None of the regulars know you should not and none of the Hispanic will Take took me seriously. Yeah. Right. And it wasn't until you get strategic about figuring out who's actually going to be more willing to give you a chance. And then once you establish your reputation now the regulars like appreciate your skill and that you're fun dancer and it's unlocked so many opportunities. Yeah, I've met so many great fun, active creative people. And yeah, I, I now want to do is turn around and help everyone enjoy dancing the way I do.

Stephanie Olson: 40:27

That is fantastic. I absolutely love that and also just kind of a, a story of resilience actually. So I love that that's fabulous. Okay, so what does resilience mean to you?

Jerry Fu: 40:43

Hmm, great question. You know, if I had to give a one sentence, like sound by resilience is not quitting when everyone else says you should, huh?

Stephanie Olson: 40:58

That's good. I like that. Yeah.

Jerry Fu: 41:00

I mean, there's, there's a caveat where it's like, you know, there's a fine line between persistence and insanity. Right? They're just, but Right, generally, right when me because that was the case, right? Everyone else could have said, No, you'll never get salsa dancing. Like, you'll never be good at leadership. Yeah, you've gotten fired, like don't even bother, right. But without resilience, you can't grow. Because the growth and growth, you know, and you recognize, you know what, I don't get better at this. And so, I work hard enough to move past incompetence, like to trust that you can get past incompetence. And you may, you know, you may not be the best leader, but maybe a better leader, or you want to get there, hey, do it.

Stephanie Olson: 41:35

Well, that's all about growth. I think that's the and that kind of goes back to conflict. When when somebody is talking to you about conflict, or, you know, it's really all about how can I grow as an individual, how can I be better? A better leader, a better parent, a better friend, whatever it is, how can I be better at this? And I think that's so important. So this has been fantastic. I have really enjoyed talking to you. There's been a lot. So how can people find you, Jerry?

Jerry Fu: 42:06

Yeah, whether they want to connect on LinkedIn, it's great. But the the website with all the goodies, right? Go to www dot adapting leaders.com. And whether you want something free, that's helpful, or you want some more personalized attention through formal coaching packages. It's all there for

Stephanie Olson: 42:25

you. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much. I've personally learned a lot. I have loved this, and I am going to check out more. And I don't know maybe I might go salsa dancing tonight. Who knows that sounds like fun, actually.

Jerry Fu: 42:40

Oh, yeah. Well, careful with Omicron. But

Stephanie Olson: 42:42

Well, that's true. That's true. Yeah,

Jerry Fu: 42:45

you know, as soon as you try it, please do. Yeah. Even if you give yourself six months to say, All right, if I don't get to four, enjoy this in six months, I'll stop. At least you recognize this your choice and not just people laughing you off the dance floor.

Stephanie Olson: 42:56

So I love it. Yeah. Well, Jerry, this has been great. I really appreciate it. You are a wealth of great information and I look forward to talking to you again. And thank you all for listening to resilience in life and leadership. We'll see you next time. Thank you for listening. Please share with anyone you think will benefit from this podcast.