Healing After Homicide - Resilience & Relationships - Stephanie Olson, Dylan Yeomans, & Jan Canty

In this episode, special guest Dr. Jan Canty shares her profound journey as a homicide survivor, exploring the impact of trauma, resilience, and community support. Her story offers valuable insights into healing and the importance of understanding trauma's lasting effects.

Email aftermath.of.homicide@gmail.com for information or to express an interest in registering in Dr. Jan Canty's conference.

Resources
Jan Canty's Website
Domino Effect Podcast
Beautiful Ashes by Shelley Edwards Jorgensen 

Talk Early, Talk Often by Stephanie Olson

Key  Topics
Impact of trauma and loss
Resilience and post-traumatic growth
Community support and remembrance
Legal and social challenges for survivors
Personal journey of healing and advocacy

Sound  Bites
"Freedom is not guaranteed."
"Trauma is life-altering."
"People have far more capacity for resilience than they realize."

Transcript

Stephanie Olson (00:02.402)
Hello and welcome to Resilience and Relationships. I am Stephanie Olson. So glad to be back. I have been gone for a while. So I'm I'm really excited to be back. And I'm here with yes. Yes, by the way, who happens to be my mom's favorite on this podcast. Not not me. Not me, but my mom loves you, Dylan. She actually said I just have to share this.

Dylan Yeomans (00:16.427)
Dylan Yeomans, Director of Communications.

Dylan Yeomans (00:24.16)
I'm mother approved.

Stephanie Olson (00:31.852)
She actually said, my gosh, Dylan brings so much energy and excitement. I'm so excited. you and Rebecca are good too, but Dylan is everything. So so yeah, there we go. But Jan, I am so excited to get to know you. We've got a wonderful guest here on today's episode. So Jan, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Dylan Yeomans (00:39.352)
Yeah.

Jan Canty (00:58.161)
Good good morning. It's morning where I'm at. my name is Dr. Jan Kanti. I'm a psychologist. I'm also a homicide survivor, which is an odd term because you can't survive homicide, but that's what we're known as, people who cope with or dealt with the aftermath of homicide. And that set my career in a totally different trajectory, which is lending itself to the topic we'll be getting into today.

Stephanie Olson (01:25.134)
Yeah, well thank you for sharing that. And I think that that really kind of leads us to to dive right in, Dylan.

Dylan Yeomans (01:36.605)
yeah, I couldn't agree more. So Jan, I always kind of love on the show to kind of put in a little bit of homework, so to say, and try to form up some good questions for you. So I'm curious and this kind of comes from a place of hopefully beginning, so we can kind of evolve on it. but I'm a little curious on what is freedom, so to speak, come to mean to you after experiencing what you have experienced with profound loss and trauma. I'm kind of curious what that now means.

to somebody of a survivor stance like yourself.

Jan Canty (02:10.447)
speaking for myself, I don't wanna speak for everybody, but from myself I would say it was a loss of that. Prior to the homicide I felt pretty, you know, footloose and fancy free and optimistic and I could conquer my goals and bad things didn't happen to people w who spent their life in a library, which is what I did till I was thirty. And then lo and behold the the homicide happened. And since then

I think it really grounded me and it let me know you can't take freedom for granted. it's not for everybody and it's never a given. that doesn't say I don't have moments where I feel that way, but I think on the whole it really tends to open your eyes and make you realize that freedom is not guaranteed. Freedom from worry, freedom from harm, that kind of thing.

Stephanie Olson (03:00.011)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (03:04.041)
Are you are you open to sharing a little bit about your story and what what happened and and what brought you to the place where you are a homicide survivor?

Jan Canty (03:18.877)
Well, it's a multi-layered story, but I'll just give you the quick brief cliff notes to it. in nine in nineteen eighty-five, I was in my eleventh year of marriage to another psychologist. I was in the my postdoctoral fellowship year, so I didn't have my credential. I was like two weeks away. And we've been married eleven years. He was eighteen years my senior. And he just failed to come home one night. Now, this is before the internet.

before grief therapy, before anything really, of any help. And he failed to come home and I called his answering service. The police didn't want to talk about it because he hadn't been gone twenty four hours. I also remember it was a very bad storm that night for July. It was unusual. We had a lot of hail and winds. So I attributed his lateness to that, maybe a car wreck, but at any rate,

That sense of suspension and not knowing lasted ten days. And on the tenth day, I got a phone call from Detective Marles Landeros from the Detroit Homicide Division and asked if she could if I would be willing to come by well, I guess it wasn't a request, but come by the Detroit Homicide Division and we want to speak with you. So at that point I knew what they were gonna be telling me.

And so I went down there and basically it wasn't exactly what I expected, though. When I got there, they said to me, you know, we don't have his body yet, but we have every reason to believe he's been murdered, given the evidence we do have, and we'll be in touch. It the whole time I was there took 10 minutes. And so I went home and I waited, and another few days passed by.

Stephanie Olson (05:06.219)
my gosh.

Jan Canty (05:12.369)
And Doctor and Detective Landero said, I'm gonna come by and pick you up and I'm gonna take you back to Detroit headquarters. And she did, and when I got in there, I met with Inspector Gil Hill, who by the way was simultaneously cast as Detective Todd in the Eddie Murphy movie that was going on at the time, Beverly Hills Cop. So I knew what he looked like, and he was no different.

Stephanie Olson (05:39.031)
So the real detective was cast as d huh. Huh.

Jan Canty (05:42.664)
Detective Todd. Yeah. Or maybe it was maybe it was Inspector Todd, but yeah, that and they the film crew had come by Detroit police headquarters just to get some interior shots for the movie, but they liked him so well that they offered him the part and he took it. And I I mentioned this because he's no different in person. That's just how he is. Very short on words, has a scowl, he's looks weathered and worn and weary.

Stephanie Olson (05:57.716)
interesting.

Stephanie Olson (06:03.189)
Mm.

Stephanie Olson (06:10.797)
Mm.

Jan Canty (06:12.379)
And he had very few words. He just brought me in and he said, you know, we have reason now to know that he has been murdered and you oughta check your finances. And we just have a few questions of like, have you ever been followed? or since you've been foll he asked me a few questions like that. And then he said and d and Detective Landeros is gonna take you to the morgue.

So she took me to the morgue. And since he'd been gone and buried for ten days, it was pretty awful what I saw. Now today they wouldn't do that because a g DNA has come so so far since nineteen eighty five they wouldn't need to have a in fact I had a detective tell me that they were surprised they did it at all because he didn't look like himself, you know, after ten days. But at any rate,

Stephanie Olson (06:51.661)
Yes.

Stephanie Olson (07:01.997)
Wow, wow.

Jan Canty (07:04.615)
It was a very highly publicized murder in Detroit, given the fact that he was a psychologist and it was such a brutal murder. And that became the one-two punch because they did not let up. They interrupted his funeral. I left in the middle of it. They cased my house. They published a map to my house from the crime scene on the front page of the Detroit News.

Which caused other people to start driving by and stealing things from outside my house. We c in w we homicide survivors call those death tourists. And many of them love true crime. So many of them were posing in front of my house and just being a nuisance. And I kept thinking, well, it'll die down. And I I did have to go to the preliminary I was subpoenaed to go to the preliminary hearing. Otherwise I would not have gone.

That was about in December. He had been murdered in July. This is now December. And that was the first time I saw the defendants in court. And John Carl Fry and D Don Marie Spence were charged with the homicide. And they were so so held over for trial, but the I was not subpoenaed to go to the trial, so I didn't attend. And the reason I did not is because I I was tired of the media.

And I thought, what difference is it gonna make to my life? Even if they're convicted and given the maximum sentence, I'm still gonna be a widow. I still gotta sell the house. I still got the media breathing down my neck. I still got all these health issues now to contend with. So why do it? I I now I'm I'm I'm not in the majority of people who do that. Most homicide survivors will go to the trial. I wanna add that. But for me I didn't want anything to do with it. In fact I left town for that duration.

So that was in December, and I expected the media would let down, but it didn't. And I did not know until 18 months later that the reason it didn't is because one of the reporters wanted to write a book. So any little detail he released it, like John Carl Fry escaped at one point. So that was on the front page. And it was like a year update was on the page. And it just went on. And I and I I got to the point where

Jan Canty (09:30.74)
People knew my face, you know, in public and they expected a report from me if I was in the grocery store. I think the more you're in the news, people feel entitled to that information, even though it's none of their business. And I never asked to be a celebrity. So that brought me to my difficult decision, very difficult decision, of just leaving Detroit altogether. I I had just started my practice, I had just bought a house, and I got this

This isn't gonna die down. So I packed up and moved. And this is back in the days when it was easier to to reinvent your life because the internet was not in in in existence yet. So I did, I moved west and I Yeah. And I changed careers. I went from being a clinical psychologist with a practice to teaching. And I found out I actually loved it.

Stephanie Olson (10:13.389)
Back in the day you could move and get through, right? Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jan Canty (10:26.225)
And I stayed teaching for the next twenty to twenty-five years, graduate school. I really, really enjoyed it. But in that interim, I did not speak of the homicide for 30 years. I didn't tell a soul. Nobody knew. And that I I thought I gotta get myself together first before I'm willing to share it with anybody. And what I fell back on, and because as I said, this is

I lived in a very small town way off the beaten track. There was no help available. The internet wasn't there. My family lived out of state, so they weren't around. So I fell back on a concept that has sustained me, and it's called the biopsychosocial model, in which you have to address all three dimensions if you want lasting change. So what I decided to do for the social part of it.

was I traveled and to third world countries and worked doing a variety of projects and in the process met people with real trauma. I mean, people that I I I c the stories I could tell you about the people I met and what they had to deal with, people without political rights and clean water and clean roads and it was awful. So when I came home from those

different parts of the world, it put a new perspective on it. It was like, I don't have it so bad. I had the police, I had my education, I had a roof over my head, I had clean water. You know, I I would get through this. I had those resources. The second part of it was the physical part of it. And so I joined a gym and I joined a women's group at the gym for six, six thirty in the morning four days a week. And we did that for years.

And we ended up doing triathlons together. And I found that that put a different spin on it too, because I felt stronger. I felt connected a little bit more than I had in the past. And st I won't have time to get into it here today, but it actually ended up saving my life because I felt broke my arm and they detected cancer early because of because of my climbing that hill and falling and breaking my arm. So that was a

Jan Canty (12:45.157)
offshoot, I hadn't expected a positive thing. but then the one missing piece was still psychological. And someone suggested to me to do a podcast and I'm like, I don't know a thing about podcasts. But I met, I was a guest on a podcast and I got a lot of encouragement from Javier Laveda, who had the pretend podcast to try it. And I did. And I called it Domino Effective Murder. I had guests on who were other homicide survivors.

From all over the world. And it was very beneficial to me personally because I'd felt like I'd met my tribe. These are the people that could finish my sentence for me, that understood what I'd been through. And unfortunately, after six years, my hearing started to decline. I'd had a bad ear infection when I was in India, and it they said in time it would take my hearing enough away that I couldn't distinguish accents and sound effects, so I had to give it up.

But I've done other things to be an advocate. So it was a long journey, you know, over forty years now, thirty-five, forty years. And it's only been in the last five years I could even talk about it.

Stephanie Olson (14:01.697)
That's amazing. That's amazing. Now g I I'm I'm gonna let Dylan ask some questions, I promise, but you had another layer to this homicide with finding out more about your husband and kind of a double life. Is that right? So I can't imagine that would add to the the trauma that you experienced.

Jan Canty (14:30.331)
It did because again it's a it separates me from the bulk of people in grief. He he did s I don't know how much I time I gotta get into this, but his double life jeopardized my life. It caused him to make me thirty thousand dollars in debt in nineteen eighty five dollars, which is about seventy nine thousand dollars today. And I had just started my practice, I didn't have much of an income. We were

Behind on everything. I had to go through AIDS testing because of his behavior with a sex worker who was a drug addict. And that was like the equivalent of COVID today. They'd they had no treatment for AIDS. And when I went in to get the testing, they were gloved up with a mask on and gloves, and it was humiliating. And then the result of they had just come out with the Elycia blood test two weeks before I took it. And my doctor said, you know.

There's bound to be some false negatives and false positives because it's a not it's just new. So because of that, we want you to get tested every year for seven years. So that weighed on me. my health really took a hit. so there was a lot of complications, and I as a result, I I was so angry with him for the lies and the d willfully flow throwing away the life that we had.

that that set me apart from a lot of people who are in grief who really miss the person and want them back. And I've met very few people who felt as I did that I I would not want to see him ever again. I don't grieve him. I don't wish him back. And that's a hard pill to swallow. that other people really you know, if you go into a look at Hallmark greeting cards, you don't find one for that. so that was a difference.

Stephanie Olson (16:23.349)
Right.

Jan Canty (16:26.801)
So it set me apart, you know, even from other fellow homicide survivors. I could say on the plus side, if there was one, it would be that it made it easier to grieve because I wasn't there just wishing he would come back. I'm like, I'm moving on with my life. You know, he got himself into this mess. He almost got me killed in the process for nothing, just because he wanted to do it. so it i I had a clean slate.

I didn't have children at the time and I just decided I had to start over and that's what I did.

Stephanie Olson (17:03.179)
And that double life you didn't find out until after he was murdered, correct? Yeah.

Jan Canty (17:07.369)
Correct. The police didn't tell me about it. At that time in Detroit's history, nineteen eighty-five, in July, they already had seven hundred and fifty murders to deal with. And by the time the year was out, it was close to nine hundred, just in Wayne County alone. So it was like a a assembly line. And they had no time to spend with me to sit me down and say, A led to B, and this is what happened to you and to your husband, and what could have happened. They didn't have time for any of that.

So when this one reporter that I mentioned wanted to write the book, my attorney came out. I I wanted the book not published. I was totally against it. But my attorney brought me to my senses and he goes, Look, he said, if you want answers, this is the only opportunity you're gonna get to get them. Because obviously your husband's not here to tell you. The police aren't gonna tell you. You don't know who to even to ask. So if you want answers as to connect the dots, this is your chance.

So I reluctantly cooperated with the book and he was the one that started filling in the blanks for me about all the stuff that he'd been doing for at least eighteen months behind my bat.

Dylan Yeomans (18:22.944)
So after they kind of sat you down just that little brief five minute window there, what ended up like how did that double like it was truly this guy's just like writing a s whole story and like he was making a book and that's how you found out about the double life part of it? So I don't want to press for any detail on that, but was like it was it because of like he found like actual evidence or was this more of like I don't wanna, you know, make fun of anybody or poke fun at anything?

But you know, some people embellish their stories. So that's where I was wanting to kind of see like where did that did it actually line up with things or was it embellished a bit more just to kind of help clarify it?

Jan Canty (18:56.275)
Yeah.

Jan Canty (19:01.927)
No. I think it could have been much worse. I think he was a credible reporter. I think his ethics were in place. And he brought the evidence to me. He he interviewed people in prison and their friends outside of prison. And he went into the neighborhood and talked to the neighbors and he did his homework. So he he he we it's like between what he knew and what I knew, we began to knit it together.

Because my trail went cold and he could pick it up and say, Well, when he told you that, this is here's an example. It it was such a small thing, and I didn't think anything of it at the time. I had a new car, my first new car in my life. I was so tickled. And my husband said to me, I'm gonna go get it detailed for you. And I go, It doesn't need detailing, it's clean. Well, I'll gotta get it gassed up for you. I go, it has gas. It's fine. No, no, I really wanna do this for you. And I'm like,

That's kind of weird. Okay. So he took off in my new car. And when he came home a couple hours later, there was a crumpled up McDonald's bag in the back seat. And I'm thinking, Well, d he doesn't eat McDonald's. Detailers, if he went there, wouldn't have left that in the back. What the heck? And I I don't remember what he said when I asked him about it. Well, what the reporter turned author told me was yeah, he went and picked up

John Fry that day because his car was stolen. And John Carr Fry had arranged for his car to be stolen so that he could get him in a compromised position and get more money from him. And that was John Carl Fry's McDonald's bag in your backseat. So that's just one of many, many examples where I brought some of the information in, the reporter brought the other in, half of it.

And and we filled in the pieces together to make the whole picture.

Stephanie Olson (21:00.023)
Do you mind sharing what his double life was?

Jan Canty (21:04.327)
It's really hard to describe. I I have I wrote a book on it ultimately and there's a whole chapter that is devoted to this. But bas it 'cause it's not what people assume.

Stephanie Olson (21:10.999)
I know, yeah.

Jan Canty (21:19.495)
In a nutshell, I think what happened was I outgrew him. When we first met, I was a high school graduate. He was 18 years older, and I was very impressed with his knowledge, with his education. But over time I caught up with that. I got my master's, got my doctorate, and I got a postdoctoral fellowship, which he did not have. And I started questioning him, and he really did not like that. Like I'd be saying things like, Well, what about?

this particular drug for psychosis. Have you ever considered that as a reason for why this person is having side effects? And well that's got nothing to do with it. And he and he just really got offended. So I stopped talking cases with him and bringing him up to speed. and I think what happened was he needed to be appreciated and to have an audience. He needed to be Big Daddy. He needed people looking up to him.

Well, there's no better place to find people to look up to you than to find people that are on the edge of homelessness with a severe drug habit if you're supplying them with cash for drugs. So that was the exchange. It's like I have a guaranteed audience now. They're gonna come to me and I can resume my need to be needed. And he gave them everything that they wanted. He bought them cars, he rented apartments, he gave them all of our money.

And things took a bad turn when he ran out of money. And they killed him for it.

Dylan Yeomans (22:55.638)
Wow. Well, I appreciate you sharing.

Stephanie Olson (22:57.889)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Dylan Yeomans (23:01.92)
Now I I do have a bit of

Jan Canty (23:02.493)
the public assumed it was a sexual thing and it well it's it really wasn't. It was he because I mean even though he and Don had a sexual relationship, it was very short lived. The bulk of the eighteen months was like he was holding court and talking at them and them putting up with him and his monologues so that they could get his money, our money. So that was the real motivation behind it.

Stephanie Olson (23:07.553)
Mm-hmm.

Dylan Yeomans (23:08.76)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Olson (23:15.468)
Wow.

Stephanie Olson (23:26.209)
Hmm.

Stephanie Olson (23:31.191)
That's amazing.

How heartbreaking for you. I'm sorry that you went through that.

Jan Canty (23:39.24)
It was hard enough without it being in public in the public eye, because everybody has an opinion and a theory and a need to gossip. And I don't think true crime fans take that into account when they're looking in on a crime as to the impact of the real people that it has. I mean, look at what happened at the morgue and they were waiting outside for me. And it was seven thirty in the morning on a Sunday, deliberately chosen.

Stephanie Olson (23:41.739)
Yes.

Stephanie Olson (23:53.067)
Yeah.

Jan Canty (24:08.669)
So there wouldn't be people around. And I didn't get even out the door when Detective Landeros said, Don't go any further, turn around. And she took me out the back door and had me lay down in her squad car. But it was just like you're feeling you're under siege and you're already vulnerable and exhausted, and the public does not have that right, but they they behave as if they do. And you know it's the kind of situation

Stephanie Olson (24:35.863)
Good point.

Jan Canty (24:37.543)
Like it or not, where anybody can join our club at any time. And I've talked to reporters who used to be that way until they became a homicide survivor. And boy did that change their opinion on how to conduct themselves.

Stephanie Olson (24:49.186)
Wow.

Stephanie Olson (24:53.367)
So how would you tell people to conduct themselves in a situation like that? Would you say, be respectful, stay away, you know, honor that there are people involved in this situation?

Jan Canty (25:06.577)
If they're if they're a stranger to you, definitely stay away. I would also ask them not to not to guess as to what happened and come up with theories and treat it like it's a who-done it. it's a tragedy that they're not a part of and just stay out of it. For people that know you casually, like coworkers, I would just say be kind and say something really brief like, sorry what happened to you, I'm here if you if if you want to talk. Other than that.

Dylan Yeomans (25:19.607)
Yeah.

Jan Canty (25:36.918)
I'll let you lead it. But for people that know you really well, there's a whole boatload of stuff they can do. I wrote a second book. it's like it's called What Now? Navigating the Aftermath of Homicide and Suicide. It's a reference book. And in there there's a whole chapter on what friends can do to support somebody in this situation. We need them desperately, but we don't know what to ask at the time and they don't know what to offer. But here's just a

one example of what they could do initially is to be a spokesperson between you and the media. You could say to them, read this statement and nothing else. Or you could say, answer questions if that's what you want them to do. That way you don't have to interface with them directly. That would be a wonderful service on the part of a friend. Because you don't want to be out in public. You don't want to deal with the media most of the time.

Now, if it's an unsolved homicide, that's a little different. Those people do need the media and do want attention. But that's one thing a friend can do and a host of other things as well. And I think what friends can do then is to say to you things like, you know, I'm gonna make sure I'm gonna monitor your surroundings for safety, because you never know if all the p perpetrators are caught. And many times they're not. They have in in the case of it going to trial, they have supporters.

Stephanie Olson (26:36.493)
Sure.

Dylan Yeomans (26:51.808)
Yeah, yeah.

Jan Canty (27:00.669)
Maybe other gang members, and you're worried about your own safety at that point. They can help you with that and be on the lookout and make sure you're thinking straight. Like, have you locked your doors? Have you brought in your dog at night? I have you eaten today? Have you taken a shower in the last week? You're not thinking about any of that. It's the best way I can describe it is it's really not a series of days. It's like one long day. It's like there's no day, n morning, noon, and night.

It's one long day. And so you lose track of when is the last time I ate? When is the last time I slept? And they can be helpful that way to at least until you have some professional helpers involved to make sure that you're getting the minimum of what you need.

But I think the main thing in terms of what not to do is to not try to cheer you out of your grief and to spend more time listening than talking.

Dylan Yeomans (28:04.578)
That's a wonderful point. And that actually leads me into one of my questions that I had ready for you here is because I think that's a lot of times what people try to do when somebody's going through grief is, well, let's just cheer them up, you know, let's let's try to get them back into a good spirits and things like that when they're really not ready to do that. So I'm a little curious too of how would you describe the difference really between moving on.

And moving forward. Because people always try to imply that too, especially when they're trying to lighten you up and trying to get you in a better place. They're trying to get you to move on. But that doesn't necessarily mean you've moved forward from that point in time. So I'd love your take on it.

Jan Canty (28:48.297)
Mm-hmm.

Jan Canty (28:51.975)
One of things I think people need to understand, I think this applies to trauma across the board, not just homicide, is that there you hate to to break people's bubbles, but there is no Hollywood ending. Once a big tragedy has occurred, you gotta give that up. That's the stuff of movies. If it's an abduction, if it is a murder, if it is a rape, there's going to be an aftermath to that.

in for till you die. It comes out in odd ways sometimes, but I I think that that is something I would I would divest people from expecting. And therefore being cheered out of it is I in fact what I really think, they're doing it for their own comfort. They don't know what to say and they don't like being that raw. So they're wanting to cheer you up so things can kind of go back to normal. And that's just bogus. I I think

you are entitled to your grief. And the other thing is that we homicide survivors spend a lot of time ensuring other people are comfortable. We don't talk about the grisly, the nitty-gritty, the real raw stuff. We don't people don't want to hear it. And some of us don't want to be that vulnerable with them. So we save it for each other. There's a superficial layer

Stephanie Olson (30:13.675)
Mm-hmm. Wow.

Jan Canty (30:17.821)
That protects us from the general public. Maybe a good friend could handle it, but even then, there's been very few people outside of reading my book that would know about what happened at the morgue. I don't talk about that. As a matter of fact, to kind of give you perspective, many, many years later, 20 years later, I met a man that I eventually married, and he had to pull it out of me.

Stephanie Olson (30:24.961)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (30:46.08)
wow.

Jan Canty (30:47.057)
Tell him is I was married before and he did not die a natural death. And he kept trying to say, Well, there's more to yes, someday I'll go into it. I mean, eventually, I gave him a quick overview. And it really wasn't until my book came out and he read it that he fully got it. I just did not want to go there, even with somebody I was marrying. It's just such a life-altering, bizarre, painful.

Stephanie Olson (30:51.885)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Olson (31:04.79)
Wow.

Stephanie Olson (31:09.046)
Yeah.

Jan Canty (31:15.175)
confusing experience that you don't expect other people to get it. And you don't want to be pitied, you don't want to be looked at as wounded and you don't want advice. So you keep it under wraps a lot of the time. so the Hollywood ending is for them for, you know, the movie theaters, but whether

Stephanie Olson (31:32.183)
Yeah.

Jan Canty (31:40.17)
Or not it's a rape or an abduction or a murder or whatever. It's gonna stay with you. It's that's the definition of trauma. It's life altering, right down to the cellular level level. That word is tossed around so casually today. I there's songs out, there's articles out about the trauma of a breakup of a dating rel that's not a trauma. It's upsetting, but it's not a trauma. Trauma means life altering.

Stephanie Olson (31:46.529)
Yes.

Stephanie Olson (31:51.041)
Yes.

Stephanie Olson (31:59.074)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Well well.

Jan Canty (32:08.583)
And it sticks with you at a very primitive level for the rest of your life. And it even alters brain function, that's been shown. And so that's a word I would caution people to use selectively and appropriately, not casually.

Stephanie Olson (32:12.663)
Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (32:26.401)
Yes, yes.

Dylan Yeomans (32:27.904)
I a hundred percent agree. Now I'm a little curious because you did touch on it, that you know, good friends, maybe some close family, these are some good people that can be outlets or resources for somebody who's going through that process. I'm a little curious too, does that expand out to community and what kind of role can community play in helping? And what makes somebody kind of feel truly supported out of the community standpoint too?

Jan Canty (32:55.251)
Wow. we don't have much community support and I think that's because we withdraw, we get irritated, we get ungrateful, we get frightened for our safety. because if it happened once, it can happen again. so we pull away from society and society pulls away from us. So we don't have a lot of community support. But

I think it's necessary and it would be lovely if we did have it. One of the things that would be great, for example, especially in bigger cities, it wouldn't be likely in a small town, but in a bigger city to have a remembrance wall for everybody in that city or town that was killed through homicide. Some place where people can go and acknowledge it. Kind of like what happened after 9/11. They had that memorial set up. It can happen in small towns. I interviewed somebody on my podcast.

Stephanie Olson (33:43.969)
Yeah.

Jan Canty (33:50.516)
From Sharon, Pennsylvania, and her little two-year-old niece was murdered. The police station was abhorred by what happened and actually put a plaque in the lobby of the police station in her honor. Well, that was really great of them. They didn't have to do that. so so I think community remembering also October twenty-fifth as a day of remembrance for homicide survivors. That day goes by year after year with nobody.

Stephanie Olson (33:54.828)
Mm.

Jan Canty (34:19.507)
paying any attention to it. it would be if if I had my way, if I could be, you know, czar for a day, I would expand our education system so that the community could support us in in K-12 situations. We now have suicide prevention programs. Why not homicide prevention programs? And talk about what to do if or how to prevent or what how to what resources are out there. But

Stephanie Olson (34:40.514)
Mm-hmm.

Jan Canty (34:49.789)
The community generally speaking doesn't want to touch it. Homicide is is ugly and politicians don't want to touch it unless they're thinking thinking there are gonna be votes for it, unless it's perhaps touched their own life. They don't sponsor bills on our behalf. realtors could help us by stop stopping these websites that are for sale that offer our addresses so that the true crime people can find us.

Stephanie Olson (34:53.003)
Agreed.

Stephanie Olson (35:00.343)
Right.

Jan Canty (35:19.923)
There's a lot of things public can do. but it's a long day and coming. Marcy's Law is a great example. Marcy's Law came about after Marilee was murdered, and it gives rights to crime victims, and it's only been adopted in 13 states. The rest have not adopted it. But it gives us basic rights, such as things like you have the right to be notified if the person responsi believed to be responsible.

for the homicide has escaped prison or jail, that you will be notified of that. Only thirteen states is that a guaranteed right. And that's how the law came about, because after Marcelly was murdered, her mother was on the way home from her funeral, her daughter's funeral, and stopped at a store to buy bread, and the person accused the boyfriend who was the later convicted of murdering her, was in the store and came up to her with a smirk.

He'd only been held twenty four hours, and nobody notified her that he'd been released. That's not right. So I would urge one big way is to get on going for Marcy's Law in the states that have not adopted it. And the ACLU is one of the proponents to not pass it. They do not like Marcy's Law. So I stopped my membership with the ACLU.

Stephanie Olson (36:35.693)
I was gonna ask you. Yeah, I it's so interesting that you say that because they were working on Marcy's Law in a state near me, and there were a lot of social service organizations that were opposed to Marcy's Law. Can you share a little bit about what it is that people are opposed to when it comes to Marcy's Law?

Jan Canty (37:04.337)
Their basic concern is it will it will remove you know you have a right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. And they are concerned that if you give crime victims rights, that that right to be presumed innocent will be taken away. So if you for example, one of the rights of Marcy's law is that if you go to the hearings, you get preferential seating, you get to be in a place of safety.

In the courtroom. So that you can't, like, say if it's a gang murder, you're you're not going to be put in a place in the courtroom where the gang members are sitting behind you, that you're going to have preferential seating. Well, ACLU is concerned that if you get preferential seat seating, it makes it look like the defendant is guilty. So that's their concern, is it removes the right of presumed innocence.

Stephanie Olson (37:44.097)
Right.

Stephanie Olson (37:54.709)
I see. Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (37:59.768)
Well, I do think also that we have in our society this fascination with as you mentioned true crime fans. So we have a fascination with the murderers and we actually do forget about the families and we forget about the victims of the f the

the murderers and I do think that is you know we we have worked we have a scholarship for a young gal Sydney Louvre who was murdered by an incredibly horrible couple and

the one thing that we've seen through this is that and we created a scholarship in Sydney's name to really have her legacy be a legacy of safety and a legacy of of of protection. And the amazing woman that she was instead of the names of the people who committed the crime. And that's all we hear about. That's the that's the sensationalism of it. And I think

People are forgotten along the way and w we forget that there are real people attached to the perpetrators.

Jan Canty (39:24.083)
Well, like it or not, I don't think we will ever be as interesting as the homicide. I don't think there'll ever be the interest in the people afterwards. when I set out to do my podcast, I s you know, true crime podcast is the number one genre out there. And there's not there wasn't one about homicide survivors by a homicide survivor until I had my own podcast. So one against, I don't know, two hundred, three hundred different podcasts out there. I don't think

Stephanie Olson (39:29.227)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Stephanie Olson (39:39.222)
Yes.

Jan Canty (39:54.762)
I don't think we'll ever be as interesting. We're not the who done it. We don't have that angle. And not only that, I think it's too frightening. I think people look at it as a mystery to be solved when they're on their couch eating popcorn looking at a at a movie. and there's not that angle if you're getting into the lives of the aftermath and that Hollywood ending thing kicks in. We dun th I don't think the public wants to know that twenty years, thirty years later

Stephanie Olson (39:59.352)
Right.

Jan Canty (40:24.373)
now that they're being let out on parole, the people who've been tried and convicted, and you're again in fear for your safety, they don't want to hear about that. They want to believe that, you know, all is well that ends well and you got put behind bars and that's the end of the story. And, you know, and you can move on now. And it's just not that way. they don't they don't make room for that. And th the the the the the reality of it is is more

Stephanie Olson (40:31.477)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jan Canty (40:53.435)
upsetting I think than people are wanting to deal with.

Dylan Yeomans (40:57.836)
Yeah, I was gonna say I think people love the fantasy aspect of murder mystery nuance and they completely remove the human aspect. Even though they tell right away, these are based on true events, these are based on real people. Immediately there's almost a dissociation of just, alright, it's not it's not it's not a person. It's just a it's a video that I'm watching or it's just a thing I'm listening to or reading. And I think when they

Jan Canty (41:24.712)
Right.

Dylan Yeomans (41:27.636)
Or, you know, I'm hoping it's a when they find your podcast and they start to kind of open their eyes a little bit more to survivor-centered opinions and kind of views on things that happen directly to these, you know, murder mysteries, so to speak. I think that's where people will kind of lose that interest. And in a good way in that, because we need to lose that almost romanticism about these murder mysteries, and we need to make it a reality of

Jan Canty (41:53.885)
Mm-hmm.

Dylan Yeomans (41:56.973)
These are real people. Yeah, and and how would we do that?

Jan Canty (41:57.672)
Yes, I agree with you. You know, if you look at Etsy, if you look at Etsy, they sell products which are so offensive to murder about murder. Like they have killer spoons, serial killer spoons, S E R I A L Spoons. Yeah. There's a lot of merchandise on Etsy related to homicide. It made they even have cruises now, of murder mystery cruises. And I'm like, this isn't fun. This isn't entertainment.

Stephanie Olson (42:13.429)
Really? I've wow.

Jan Canty (42:28.433)
And I think i people look at it as a mystery. I I wish people instead would look at it as what's the fallout from this and what are the implications for me or my loved ones or my close relatives. Now homicide is a rare event. I do want to add that. It's not like true crime would have you believe. Your chances literally are greater of dying, falling out of bed than being killed by a serial murderer. That's how rare it is.

And it's getting rarer because of CCTV footage. Hom suicide is not so much. That's a more common event. But homicide is pretty rare and it's going down. We are living at the safest time in history in the United States when it comes to homicide. But you won't get that out of the news. You don't get that out of true crime podcasts. We're down to about 20,000 murders per year on average in the United States today. And

Back in the nineteen hundreds, it was three times, four times that. It's gone down, down, down. And on the other hand, the negative part of it is, this surprises a lot of people, the solving of homicides has also gone down. We are only at a flip of the coin at this point. Used to be a seventy percent chance of solving a homicide, and even though today with advanced technology it is down now to about a fifty fifty chance, whether or not the

Stephanie Olson (43:49.461)
Yeah.

Jan Canty (43:53.524)
perpetrator will be caught. So there's a very good chance of the murder going unsolved, which is a whole nother layer of complications.

Stephanie Olson (44:01.299)
Yes, that's shocking. Yeah.

Dylan Yeomans (44:01.75)
I was gonna say I feel like that's like a whole episode itself of like how is police work evolved and how many of these cases from back in the day were actually founded on evidence or it was a detective's theory who he could make sense of everything and made it fit. I'm I'm a little curious on if that has a large percentage of why that leveled back out.

Stephanie Olson (44:23.34)
Yeah.

Jan Canty (44:23.561)
Well, the some of the most prevalent reasons for why homicide solving has decreased is because there's fewer police to do the work. we have a high turnover rate in the police, law enforcement in general, detectives as well, and new people coming on are not gonna be as dedicated to the case as those that work the case themselves. We also have more murders because of gangs.

And those gang members are gonna threaten people from testifying or producing any evidence. And they're very convincing when they do that. We also have more murders that occur between strangers than we did prior to 1970. Just maybe because it's an initiation rite or it's a armed robbery situation, but there's more stranger to upon stranger homicides. That makes it harder to solve because you don't have a good motive. And the other one is there's more

knowledge out there about how to get away with homicides like killing somebody outdoors, and so because the evidence quickly fades, that makes it harder to solve. So there is a lot of reasons behind it. and it's really disconcerting to know that in spite of the MVAC and other advances in technology, that you can't count on it as a for sure thing.

Dylan Yeomans (45:49.1)
No I agree. Stephanie, did you have any more questions? I think I have one more.

Stephanie Olson (45:56.334)
I I just love actually this question that you had. As both a psychologist and a survivor, how has your understanding of resilience changed over the years?

Jan Canty (46:10.547)
Hm. That's a good question.

Jan Canty (46:15.529)
More optimistic about it than I've ever been. I say that based on the largely upon the people I've met through my podcast. Every one of them was a success story. Now, I granted I'm not d talking with 100% of the homicide survivors out there. But for the people that I met, every homicide was unique. They were all terrible. I came away just impressed with them.

I'm thinking if this thing called resilience is real. They did it against the odds. I I can just give you one example here. It comes to there's many examples come to my mind, but here's one. I interviewed a young woman, Shelley Edwards Jorgensen, who was sixteen years of age, when her father made good on his promise to murder her mother and burn down the house, which he did. He had influence, he had money.

And for that reason it took them a long time to finally pin him to the murder. In that interim, she was living with him. She was sixteen years of age. He hadn't been charged with a murder. She knew he killed her, but she was living under the same roof with him. Finally, the prosecution caught up, charged him with a murder, and he was not held behind bars. He was allowed to be free on his own recognizance during the trial, which is very rare.

And she was still living under the same roof with him while he's going to court. Then the prosecuting attorney says to Shelley, when she's seventeen years of age, I want you to testify against your father. She did, knowing she had to go home and be under the same roof with him.

All of her relatives took advantage of the situation, so she ended up financially with nothing when he got convicted. She was so strapped for money when she became a college student that she would go sneak into the college cafeteria and eat crackers to survive.

Jan Canty (48:23.303)
She got her degree in engineering, and she's an engineer today. She's written a wonderful book called Beautiful Ashes. And if you were to meet her on the street, you would never get a clue what her history was. You talk about resilience. She was a kid when this happened, with no support. None. Her mother was gone, her dad was the killer. Her sister took off and didn't even participate in any of it. She was much older. Her friends tried, but how much other sixteen, seventeen year olds were?

Stephanie Olson (48:27.755)
That's unbelievable.

Stephanie Olson (48:44.661)
Mm.

Jan Canty (48:53.331)
Prepared for that. And neighbors were like, I'm not getting into this. The guy's a killer. So she was on her own and she did it. So my view of resilience is it's doable. It is absolutely doable. Not that doesn't mean it's automatic. Certain things have to take place. But I believe that people have far more capacity, far more capacity for resilience than they appreciate.

You don't know what you're capable of until you're pressed to your limit. You really don't. And a lot of people surprise you.

Stephanie Olson (49:29.687)
That's beautiful. Yeah.

Dylan Yeomans (49:31.968)
I love that. And I've

Jan Canty (49:33.074)
In fact, one of my favorite sayings is that I hope I get this right. Although there's a lot of suffering in the world, this was by there's a lot of suffering in the world, there's equally a lot of the overcoming of it. And I think that's true. We don't hear about those people, but they're there. I I've spoken to them. that's why we have this concept called post traumatic growth. We don't talk about it enough. We talk a lot about post traumatic stress disorder, which is a term I don't like.

Because it implies that you're deranged. I wish we would use the term post-trauma injury, but we don't. post-traumatic growth means that the trauma happens and it's awful. It brings you to your knees, but in the long run, you come out stronger. You come out more self-assured. You come out with an appreciation for things that you do not take for granted, like locks on your doors and

Dylan Yeomans (50:25.864)
Jan Canty (50:32.039)
ring doorbells and your ability to be sensitive to strange behavior and other people you pick up on that now that you're so hyper vigilant. that your ability to speak out about it, to testify in court against it, to influence laws about it. there's so many strong people out there that whose names we'll never know that are there. And I wish we'd make movies about them.

Stephanie Olson (50:58.477)
Yeah.

Agreed. I agree. Wow. Amazing.

Jan Canty (51:06.377)
I think a basic ingredient to resilience is connection.

If people could connect with other people who've been through what they've been through, whether it's rape, kidnapping, homicide, it really is a a a booster of your understanding and self-confidence and optimism. you don't try to do it alone. That's why podcasts are so important. That's why conferences are so important. I'm putting on with a col colleague of mine a first ever National Homicide Survivor Conference this fall.

Stephanie Olson (51:32.599)
Mm. Yes.

Jan Canty (51:41.436)
in Gig Harbor, Washington. There's never been one. And I'm thinking it's about time. I got the idea when I attended a conference for the wrongfully convicted of murder. And I thought if they can do it, you know, through the Innocence Project, I thought if they can do it, why can't we do it? So fingers crossed, I hope we have a good we're limiting our attendance to 70 people. And it's I it's going to be on 911 this fall. And I chose that date 911 because

Stephanie Olson (51:41.729)
That's amazing.

Stephanie Olson (51:51.893)
Stephanie Olson (51:58.424)
Good for you.

Stephanie Olson (52:08.15)
Wow.

Jan Canty (52:10.985)
For those people old enough to remember the terrorist attacks firsthand from watching them on TV or living in New York or Pennsylvania, we were all homicide survivors for that first few minutes. If you c recall how you felt the first five minutes of your awareness of those terrorist attacks, before you got the thing spelled out for you, the fear, the the the confusion, the disbelief, the sheer

panic that can set in. The horror, the anger that you felt, that's what homicide survivors go through. And that's why I chose that date. But I'm hoping that I get a good turnout for this because I think it'll have a ripple effect. If people come to this conference, they can improve their functioning, which means if they're a parent, their children will benefit. If they have an employer, their employer will benefit. If they have friendships, the friendships will benefit from it.

So and I think it'll be a wonderful experience. I'm looking at it as kind of a homecoming.

Stephanie Olson (53:13.419)
Wow, that that is beautiful. I I think on that note, where can we find out more about that, more about you, more about your book?

Jan Canty (53:24.327)
It's all in one place, so it's pretty simple. Just go to my website. It's all lowercase and it's j a n c a n t y ph d dot com. Jancanty Ph D dot com. There's information in there on the conference, there's my books, there's the link to my podcast. and by the way, I keep a very active blog on there. I y looked yesterday, it's up to two hundred and twenty-two articles.

on a variety of topics, some of which are related to victims of any stripe, whether that's you know, like for example, I have a blog article on the importance of sleep. And that applies to anybody who's been in a traumatic situation. Sleep is number one and and it's robbed of you early and chronically. And if you don't get good sleep, nothing else matters. so I keep that active blog and people are welcome to look at that as well.

Stephanie Olson (53:52.493)
Great.

Dylan Yeomans (54:00.517)
Mm.

Stephanie Olson (54:13.239)
So true.

Stephanie Olson (54:18.893)
Yeah, we'll put that information in the link. Go ahead. Yes.

Dylan Yeomans (54:19.296)
I do too and poof, it's right down there. All you gotta do is scroll down a little bit and it's right there.

Jan Canty (54:22.981)
Okay.

Stephanie Olson (54:25.005)
Yes, we will provide that for all of you. Wow. Dylan, anything else?

Dylan Yeomans (54:31.286)
My last question for you, and I think we'll put a nice big bow on today's episode. Again, I just want to thank you for coming on and sharing not only your experiences, but some of your growth and wisdom that you've had to not only develop but just kind of figure out for yourself. So thank you for sharing some of that with us. My last question for today for anybody who's out there listening, watching, or just tuning in for today's episode, who maybe feels defined by some trauma or maybe some sort of loss in their life, what would you want them to know about their community?

Stephanie Olson (54:35.233)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (54:45.399)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (54:56.845)
Mm.

Dylan Yeomans (55:00.536)
capacity to build a meaningful life beyond what's happened to them.

Jan Canty (55:07.097)
It is very likely, because

It isn't the trauma by itself that is so injurious as it is our reaction to it. I base that on some, for example, on some of the writings by people that were in the Holocaust. They came out of the Holocaust and the concentration camps where everything was taken from them, everything. Their relatives, their health, their freedom. And there is a concept through logotherapy in which it talks about

It's how you define it. When I was going through it, I thought, I'll be damned if I'm gonna be collateral damaged. That is not in my bailiwick. Uh-uh. They've taken my husband, my finances, my sleep, my privacy. That's all they get. End of story. From here on out, it's about me and building my life back. I am not. I am not gonna be a victim. I just was not open to that. And I I think

p people understood that they have some more control over the outcome by looking at how they define themselves and how they define their futures, connecting with other people, that that does not have to define them. It does not. It's an important chapter in their life, definitely. It will stay with them indefinitely. But it is not the end of the story. It is not. It is a a very difficult chapter, a big hurdle that they have to climb. But

with time and proper support and finding other people who've been through it and who are further along the path than you are, it is entirely possible to put it in perspective as the years go by. And it will find its natural place. it is I I I really do get concerned when people think it has to be their identity from them out. I mean, there's neighbors where I live right now have no idea this has happened to me.

Jan Canty (57:04.841)
I don't put it on my forehead and talk about it. I don't. It's just unless I have to talk about it or choose to talk about it, I don't. It's a it happened, it was awful, I wouldn't wish it on anybody. It took a toll on me, but here I am, happily married, adopted two kids. I'm living a good life. You know, I'm traveling, I'm doing my photography, I'm I'm a master gardener now. I I have a lot of other things going in my life besides that.

Stephanie Olson (57:24.684)
Amazing.

Jan Canty (57:32.289)
And other people will find that is the case too. And it's begins with hope. It begins with the belief that they can rise above this, grow around it, and put it in its proper perspective over time.

Stephanie Olson (57:32.289)
That's great.

Stephanie Olson (57:47.464)
Mm. That's amazing. That is good. Jan, thank you so much. Thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing your story and just your your wisdom. I think that is so important. And I think this gives some of that education that we all need so desperately. I I think you put such an important perspective on something that

Dylan Yeomans (57:49.528)
I appreciate that.

Stephanie Olson (58:17.047)
People don't want to think about or choose not to think about, and you have done it with such grace. Right.

Jan Canty (58:21.809)
No, and and to be fair, I didn't either. I was one of them at one point. I get it. I I'm not blaming them. I was the same way before it happened to me, but but you know, there's nothing like experience to teach you.

Dylan Yeomans (58:26.21)
Sure.

Stephanie Olson (58:28.374)
No.

Right.

Yes, and if we can learn from you instead of going through it ourselves, that would be the ideal thing. But you just you do it with such grace. So thank you so much. I appreciate it. Yeah.

Jan Canty (58:46.633)
Well thank you to Stephanie, appreciate it.

Dylan Yeomans (58:48.544)
And best of luck on your upcoming September eleventh event. I wish you the best turnout.

Stephanie Olson (58:51.283)
Yes. That is so exciting. Well, please keep us in the loop. we would love to promote it and and share it with people. I think that would be wonderful. So thank you so much for your time. this was a great podcast to come back to. I appreciate it, Jan. Thank you. Thank you. And hey, we thank you for joining us and

Jan Canty (58:51.799)
I'm excited. I'm jazz about it. I'm really excited.

Jan Canty (59:00.861)
Thank you. Thank you.

Dylan Yeomans (59:10.698)
Yeah.

Jan Canty (59:10.789)
Okay. Well thank you, Dylan. Thank you, Stephanie. I appreciate it.

Dylan Yeomans (59:14.922)
Of course, thank you, Jim.

Stephanie Olson (59:19.691)
Get some R and R, we'll see ya next time.

Thank you so much, Jan. so appreciate it.