YNP Part 2 Yellowstone Justice: Wild Cases and Life on the Bench

In this second installment of Tales from the 10th, the conversation continues with judges who have served in Yellowstone National Park, offering a deeper look into one of the most unique judicial environments in the country. The episode explores memorable and often surprising case from tourists interacting dangerously with wildlife to high-profile defendants and unusual criminal activity in the park.

Through these stories, the judges highlight the delicate balance between enforcing federal law and preserving Yellowstone’s natural ecosystem, where human instincts often clash with the realities of the wild. The discussion also touches on the powerful influence of social media, the challenges of public misunderstanding, and the educational role of both the courts and park rangers.

Beyond the courtroom, the episode paints a vivid picture of life in a remote community of just a few hundred residents, where encounters with wildlife are routine, anonymity is nonexistent, and even ordering a pizza can come with unexpected complications.

Blending humor, insight, and reflection, this episode offers a fascinating look at how justice operates in one of America’s most extraordinary landscapes. 

Transcript

Yellowstone Episode 2

Erin Gust: [00:00:10] Welcome back to Tales from the 10th. a podcast about the rich history, culture, and contributions of the 10th Circuit, brought to you by the US Court of Appeals for the 10th Circuit and the 10th Circuit Historical Society. I'm your co-host, Erin Gust. 

Laila Kassis: I am your co-host, Laila Kassis.

Erin Gust: [00:00:31] In our last episode, we began a fascinating conversation with the current magistrate judge and former magistrate Judge serving Yellowstone National Park, exploring the unique legal landscape of one of America's most iconic jurisdictions.

Erin Gust: [00:00:46] Part one discussed the challenges of administering justice in a vast and remote national park and the intersection of federal law and daily life in Yellowstone. Today, we're continuing that [00:01:00] conversation. In this second installment, we dive deeper into the judges' experiences on the bench, including memorable cases, the practical realities of law enforcement in the park, and the evolving role of the federal judiciary in protecting both people and natural resources.

Erin Gust: [00:01:19] Whether you are a legal professional, a history enthusiast, or just curious about how justice is carried out in extraordinary places, this episode offers something for everyone. Let's return now to our conversation.

Erin Gust: [00:01:34] Judge Hambrick and Judge Carmen, what are some of your most memorable cases?

Judge Carman: [00:01:40] The first one that always pops into my mind is the one where the gentleman put the bison in the back of the SUV because that got such incredible publicity. And it was really kind of a sad story. This gentleman was from Montreal, but he'd actually grown up in Africa and, he was traveling with his son, and they were traveling Lamar [00:02:00] Valley and there was a young bison calf that was in the roadway, and it was dusky, getting dark.

[00:02:06] And the bison, there was no, cow bison in the area and they didn't know what to do, and they tried to, you know, harass it back off the road. But it kept coming back up to the road and going from car to car. And he was concerned that, you know, it was going to cause an accident, it was going to get hit, it was going to get killed a vehicle would be involved. So not knowing what to do, he put the bison in the back of his SUV and took it to the nearest ranger station.

[00:02:32] Well, that technically, of course, is a violation of law, but his intentions were not a criminal in nature. He wasn't doing it for selfies with bison like we see, or other actions.

[00:02:43] But it so happened there was a tourist at the ranger station, and the tourist took a picture of it and posted it on social media, and I think it would've been just dealt with without any violation, but for that event, and it just went ballistic. The vitriol of the social [00:03:00] media was just stunning.

[00:03:01] It was stunningly cruel. The gentleman took it all to heart. He was, he was extremely distraught about it. So then in a position where the Park Service did have to bring a charge and the previous US Attorney brought the charge, and he pled guilty to it. Most of my sentencing argument dealt with how much he'd suffered under the social media attack.

[00:03:24] But we saw that quite a bit in the park. Anytime an event became public, the social media would just ramp up. Some of them went as far as I think people should be executed, tarred and feathered kicked out of the country. It was incredible how angry people would get about these events.

[00:03:40] That was a man who suffered as a result of social media far in excess of anything he did wrong. So that case always kind of jumps in my mind because it's usually one of the first cases people mention to me. He says, oh, remember the guy put the bison in his car? So anyway, that was an interesting case and kind of a, a painful case.

[00:03:58] And then, I saw it happen over and [00:04:00] over and other cases because Yellowstone tends to attract a lot of publicity. 

Erin Gust: [00:04:05] How do you see, I feel like there's a decent amount of, at least witnessing it from the social media of not being up in Yellowstone. You see kind of these cases of people who just, maybe they're trying to do good, they just don't understand that this is wildlife and how you should treat wildlife. You really do have to give them space and how do you deal with that kind of lack of knowledge, but also there are these laws and respecting wildlife and your role of protect and preserve the wildlife up there.

Judge Carman: [00:04:31] I know Judge Hambrick can talk about this. In the park, the idea is to allow the ecosystem to function as naturally as possible. Of course, you know, with millions of visitors coming through every year, that's not always easy. But when things occur by nature, they like to leave it in place.

[00:04:46] In other words, if a bison dies, or a bison is injured, you often will see an elk or a bison that's injured and limpy, well, you know, humanity might indicate that maybe you need to put the animal down because [00:05:00] it's suffering. But that's, that wasn't caused by man.

[00:05:02] If it was hit by a car, that was different, but typically it's not. And so, the Park Service tries not to interfere in those circumstances. People can have a hard time understanding, why don't you feed the animals? Why don't you protect the animals? You know, that's not what Yellowstone’s about. When we moved there, we said, "you know, we've stepped off the bus into Yellowstone, and no longer are we at the top of the food chain, we're at the bottom of the food chain." And it's important for us to remember that that's our role, but that's primarily an educational thing. And I know Judge Hambrick would discuss that with people in court. But typically, the Rangers handle that in the field. The Rangers try to deal with most of that without having to involve the criminal court system.

[00:05:42] But some people are less amenable to instruction than others.

Judge Hambrick: [00:05:47] Talking about the backcountry, another case that always comes to mind to me, when I think about past cases there was a Boy Scout troop in the park, and I actually think you were still the judge, Judge Carman? 

Judge Carman: [00:05:57] This is down. I know. Is [00:06:00] this, the chicken pot case? 

Judge Hambrick: [00:06:01] Yes. And so, they were actually, uh, cooking their chicken in one of the thermal features, which.

Erin Gust: [00:06:07] Oh my gosh.

Judge Hambrick: [00:06:09] It does not sound appetizing to me in any way, but that's what they were doing. And uh, got caught doing that. And I think I was the A-USA and Judge Carman was still the judge. 

Judge Carman: [00:06:18] They were out of Idaho and his father, the scout leader, his father had done it with that gentleman, you know, years and years ago.

[00:06:27] So he thought he was just passing on tradition to the Young Scouts. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:06:32] But there's an Instagram page that is, Lego National Park Service, Lego memes, and there's actually one, with a little chicken over a thermal feature that they've done. So, I always think of that one. And recently, I had a case out of actually Grand Teton Park.

[00:06:47] We also hear those cases, um, that actually received a presidential Pardon? So that's, that's very unusual.

Judge Carman: [00:06:54] That is very unusual.

[00:06:55] Erin Gust: I did see that. The runner of Grand Teton. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:06:58] Yes.

[00:06:58] Erin Gust: Right.

Judge Hambrick: [00:06:59] So, [00:07:00] yep. Yeah. So that was a very unusual circumstance. 

Judge Carman: [00:07:04] This is where I, I keep my mouth shut. 

Erin Gust: [00:07:07] For the chicken. Were they successful?

[00:07:09] Did they share some with the Park Service or did they get caught before they could finish cooking?

Judge Hambrick: [00:07:14] I believe they got caught before.

Judge Carman: [00:07:16] I don't think it got done.

Judge Hambrick: [00:07:17] Finished cooking. 

Judge: [00:07:18] Yeah.

Judge Carman: [00:07:19] On the West Shore.

[00:07:21] It wasn't in a well visited area. It was definitely back country as Judge Hambrick said.

Erin Gust: [00:07:26] Because I feel like the main thermo pools, they're the big signs. They even, I went a few years ago and you've, there's a picture of a kid falling in and a mom grabbing him. And I was like, if that doesn't communicate the message, I don't know what will.

Judge Carman: [00:07:39] There, there was a tragic case at the Norris Hot Springs, I'll always remember because it was a brother and sister and they went out and they were going to go off trail and they did it on purpose and they were filming it and, uh, it was a lark for them.

[00:07:52] But then he slipped and slid into a hot spring and, they never even recovered the body, quite frankly.

Erin Gust: [00:07:57] Wow.

Judge Carman: [00:07:58] It dissolved and [00:08:00] it burned, obviously. And the video of that and her screaming, and it is horrific, horrific. So.

[00:08:09] And a lot of what we deal with is just simple ignorance of what the rules are or pushing the limits a little bit. The one I always laugh about was, a gentleman was, seen off trail with his camera. And the Rangers arrived and started speaking with him. He indicated he was a doctor. He was from back east, which in Wyoming covers a lot of country.

[00:08:31] And the Ranger said, well, I'd like to see your phone because they said you were taking pictures. And he said, "well, I'm, I'm a doctor and, uh, I have valuable confidential information related to medical care on this device. And if I surrender this phone, people could die." And the ranger's a little put off, you know, why, just want to see the pictures on the phone.

[00:08:54] And, so the ranger said, "well, what kind of doctor are you?" He was an orthodontist. [00:09:00] 

[00:09:04] So they ultimately obtained the pictures and sure enough there were pictures of him standing by the sign saying off trail and then going on beyond and traveling around. So that was the orthodontist with a very heavy practice, apparently. 

Erin Gust: [00:09:17] Might not get their braces. 

Judge Carman: [00:09:19] Yeah. 

Erin Gust: [00:09:19] Life forgot.

Judge Carman: [00:09:23] What other cases do you have, judge Hambrick, do you think about? 

Judge Hambrick: [00:09:26] Well, we had one here in the last couple years. A couple of people, they were over on the West Entrance Road coming into the park and got caught in a bison jam. The gentleman who was the passenger actually got out and got very close to the bison and was kind of trying to harass them off the road.

[00:09:43] And even attempted to kick one of the bison. I don't think he made contact with him, but it was all caught on camera. because all the tourists have videos. And the Rangers made contact with him, and it turned out he was pretty highly intoxicated [00:10:00] and the driver of the vehicle was also intoxicated.

[00:10:02] So he got charges for harassing the wildlife and she got a DUI. But I am not sure I'd ever seen a case where anybody was trying to actually, physically assault one of the bison. They're very scary creatures. They're large and unfriendly. So that one was, people do some crazy things.

Judge Carman: [00:10:19] I think this one was before your time, but maybe this case came to your attention at the US Attorney's office because, it went up to Cheyenne, but, a lot of times when, when it's crowded especially, or the campgrounds aren't all open, people find that they're in the park, and they can't get a camping spot, so they'll pull over somewhere and camp, out of bounds camping, we call it.

[00:10:37] And so that will often get you a visit from the Ranger. Well, the rangers were patrolling, I think it was early season, and they were down at the southern part of Lake Yellowstone and there was this motor home in the parking lot down there. So, they contacted the motor home, to let them know they couldn't park there, they couldn't stop there.

[00:10:54] And they opened the door, and they were greeted with the smell of marijuana. And two [00:11:00] I, I won't say elderly ladies, but definitely, senior. And so that gave the Ranger probable cause to, you know, look in the vehicle. And, they found, I think it was over 300 pounds of marijuana packed away very carefully, all through the motor home, and very carefully wrapped to make sure that it would not be detectable.

[00:11:22] But unfortunately, they were smoking pot in the motor home. So that kind of eliminated the need for the discovery of the other, supposedly hidden pot. But as you can imagine, the Ranger was pretty excited to get a big pot bust. That case went felony, so it went off to Cheyenne to be prosecuted.

[00:11:40] But after that, the Rangers became very aggressive on their out of bounds camping. They were all hoping to get another big pot bust or drug bust.

Judge Hambrick: [00:11:48] Okay. I don't know if it's really a tale, but it's a, another one of my, I would say more memorable cases. And actually, one of the cases that got a lot of publicity, and I got [00:12:00] contacted by I mean, people I hadn't heard from in years, was actually had Pierce Brosnan appear in court, I think about two years ago.

[00:12:07] So, he had been in the area, outside the park between us and Livingston. There's actually, they built a movie set for like, old westerns and things like that. And so, Pierce Brosnan was in the area working on a movie and had come into the park and was in Mammoth Hot Springs, looking at our, features there and had gone off trail into the thermal area.

[00:12:30] And so they had cited Mr. Brosnan for being off trail travel in a thermal area. So, he actually appeared, via video in my courtroom. He had an attorney from Bozeman was representing him. He originally pled not guilty to the charge, and we had some status conferences, but ultimately, he reached a plea agreement with the government and again, appeared via video and entered a guilty plea to the charge.

[00:12:54] And, was very remorseful about what had happened, and received, a sentence similar to, [00:13:00] anybody else who would have done it. But that, obviously, made the news. I think you saw it in the New York Times, like Judge Carman said, the Yellowstone cases tend to get a lot of publicity, whether they're famous people or not.

[00:13:12] And so I had people reaching out from all over the country and making bond jokes and things like that. But that was pretty memorable. He was extremely respectful. I really kind of wanted to make him appear in person, just because that would've been, that would've been fun.

[00:13:28] But that was a pretty memorable case, with Pierce Brosnan oh oh seven,

Judge Carman: [00:13:33] I've been a fan of his since Remington Steel, so I was really disappointed that he waited till I was off the bench before he got in trouble in the park. I would love to have had that case.

[00:13:44] I don't know. I think of two things. I was recalled the summer of 24 and Judge Hambrick cleverly dumped two really nasty cases on me.

[00:13:54] One really nasty case,

Judge Hambrick: [00:13:56] Which one was that? 

Judge Carman: [00:13:57] The photographer in Jackson. [00:14:00] 

Judge Hambrick: [00:14:00] Oh yeah. 

Judge Carman: [00:14:01] Oh yeah. Yeah. But I don't think that's the case I want to talk about. It was a fun, actually, it was a fun trial. It was kind of a tickle, I get back recalled and I got to do a trial in Mammoth and one trial in Jackson in addition to, I was based in Cheyenne during that period of time. I always worked very hard to make sure that I treated people appropriately and I did not get angry on the bench.

[00:14:23] I have had occasions where I was beat up by judges, at various times that I thought was uncalled for and said, I always said it's pretty easy to beat somebody up when you are wearing a robe. And so, I think I was known for the most part of being a fairly levelheaded, type judge. But we're in the Christmas season and that reminds me of one circumstance where I did lose my temper on the bench.

[00:14:44] It's one of those rare stories, where I'm not complimentary of the employees of Yellowstone National Park. But Lee Pico was prosecuting the case. And you got to understand, Lee Pico had been with the US Attorney's Office since 1980. I knew Lee Pico way back when I [00:15:00] interned as a law student, I met Lee Pico. And here I was now he was my A USA up in Mammoth. And a very, very good guy. Great guy.

[00:15:11] But, a gentleman who lives in the fishing bridge area during the winter, and you can understand that's a very remote location. And here he is with his family living in a place that's only accessible by about what, three hour snowmobile ride, you think Judge Hambrick?

Judge Hambrick: [00:15:27] Yeah.

Judge Carman: [00:15:28] And it's after Christmas now, and he's gotten a ticket for cutting down a tree, a Christmas tree in an unauthorized area. And apparently, they did have some revision where you could cut down a tree in a certain area, maybe involving a right of way for electrical line or something.

[00:15:45] But he'd cut down a tree that was a little bit outside of that area and he'd taken the tree home and then put it up. And then the ranger determined he'd taken the tree in an inappropriate place and wrote him a ticket. Well, I thought that was a little over the top [00:16:00] anyway, but you know. So, he pleads guilty to doing it and he tells the story, and I said, okay, well I'm going to give you like a $10 fine, on this some minor little thing just to cover the processing fee.

[00:16:14] I said, so it was still cheaper than if you'd gone out and bought a Christmas tree and you got to have a Christmas tree. And he said, “No I didn't.” I said, “What? He said, “No, the Ranger came in on Christmas Eve, gave me the ticket, and he made me take all my ornaments off the tree and he took the tree away.”

Erin Gust: [00:16:32] That's some grinch behavior.

Judge Carman: [00:16:33] In front of his children. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:16:35] Ranger Grinch, for sure. 

Judge Carman: [00:16:37] And like I said, this is a very rare, I mean, I don't think of any other circumstance where I, I was so upset and definitely not at the actions of a Ranger. And I looked at Lee Pico and he knew I was furious, and he was quickly backtracking on the case because he had not known that the Ranger had done that.

[00:16:57] I was, I was furious about [00:17:00] that. And, I think I used some words I probably shouldn't have used at that point in time, they escaped me. The case was quickly dismissed by Lee Pico. But I could not believe that anybody would do that. The Ranger shortly after that left Yellowstone National Park and no names will be mentioned.

[00:17:17] So Merry Christmas, everybody. And I hope nobody takes your tree away. 

Erin Gust: [00:17:21] Seriously. Don't be cutting trees in the wrong part of Yellowstone. The Ranger will come on Christmas Eve. 

Judge Carman: [00:17:27] Yeah. That was just like young children. Wow. I was so upset. Anyway, I didn't get upset a lot. That one upset me.

Judge Hambrick: [00:17:34] I don't know if you're familiar with Forrest Fenn.

Judge Carman: [00:17:37] Treasure, the Forrest Fenne treasure.

Erin Gust: [00:17:38] Oh, treasure. Okay.

[00:17:40] As background for our listeners.

[00:17:43] Over a decade ago, Santa Fe art dealer Forest Fence sparked a modern treasure hunt by hiding a bronze chest filled with gold and artifacts reportedly worth seven figures somewhere in the Rocky Mountains. The only clue was a 24-line poem and his memoir, the Thrill of [00:18:00] the Chase. The Promise of Treasure has lured individuals from across the country to search for it in Yellowstone, where it was eventually found.

Judge Hambrick: [00:18:09] Yes. So, Forrest Fenn was an art dealer from New Mexico, and he got cancer later in life. And after that wanted to do something as a legacy. And so, in 2010, he self-published a book called The Thrill of the Chase. And in the book were a lot of short stories about his own adventures and his life, but also in the book was a poem.

[00:18:37] And the poem was said to contain clues to a location where Forrest Finn had hidden a treasure. And the treasure was supposedly a couple of million dollars’ worth of gold coins and gems and artifacts and things like that. And so, people really started reading the poem, trying to decipher it and figure out the [00:19:00] location of the treasure.

[00:19:01] And I think at some point he gave a hint that it was located within the Rocky Mountain region. Well, a lot of people read that and thought it was buried somewhere in Yellowstone National Park. And so over the years we've had a variety of individuals coming into the park and looking for treasure. But a lot of the park's rules aren't really conducive to treasure hunting.

[00:19:21] So like you can't have a metal detector, you're not supposed to go around digging holes in the park, generally speaking. Things like that. And so, a lot of times it led to conflict with the rangers. But sometimes there were also some tragic cases. In 2018, there was an individual, a 53-year-old man was looking for the treasure and fell and actually died while, pursuing the Forrest Fenn treasure.

[00:19:46] There was another individual who came into the park and snowmobiled to the Grand Canyon of the Yellowstone in January and decided to repel into the canyon because that's where he thought the treasure was. [00:20:00] Now, mind you, Forrest Fenn was a 70-year-old man when he hid the treasure. And so, the chances that he repelled into the Grand Canyon to hide a treasure were probably very slim, but that's where this man thought the treasure was. So, he repelled into the canyon, but it turned out he had too short of a rope to actually get down into the canyon, and then he was unable to get himself up out of the canyon once he got down in there. And he had a buddy with him to help him treasure hunt, who then called the Rangers, and they got down into the canyon and helped get him out.

[00:20:34] Another case was, I came to the park in March of 2020 as an assistant United States attorney, and about immediately after I got there, COVID hit, everything was shut down and the park was completely closed to visitors at that time. Well, in early spring the Rangers noticed an individual running around in an area close to Mammoth Hot Springs, uh, where there's an old corral and a [00:21:00] barn, and the old military cemetery from when it was Fort Sheridan.

[00:21:06] And so they tracked him down and found him and he'd actually been staying in the corral in the barn area, set up camp in there, had electricity. He had his CPAP machine in there hooked up so he could sleep. And he was convinced that the treasure had been buried in the old military cemetery in the park.

[00:21:27] And so he set up game cameras around the cemetery. He would photograph an area, dig around in it, and then try to put it back So it looked the same as before he dug in there and he had even, dug into a grave and cracked open a wooden coffin that still contained remains from the probably very late 19th century or early 20th century. An individual who'd been killed in a bear attack actually. I mean, I hadn't even heard of the Forrest Fenn treasure when I got there, [00:22:00] so this was one of my first times dealing with it. So, he actually got charged with some felonies, under the ARPA statutes, and ended up doing some home confinement and pled to that felony conviction.

[00:22:14] I think maybe right before I got there, I think Judge Carman had a case where an individual decided the treasure was up on Mount Holmes and decided to hike up there to find the treasure. And he was wholly unprepared for any kind of rigorous hiking trip. I think he had like one bottle of water, no clothing for cold weather, which it can be cold on the mountains in the park any time of year.

[00:22:39] He got up there, got lost and was unable to find his way out. And so, he ended up spending the night out on the mountain alone without proper clothing. And finally, the Rangers were able to locate him and help him walk out of the trail. But the Forest treasure hunters are a [00:23:00] very interesting group of people.

[00:23:02] The treasure was actually found in the park in 2022. They haven't revealed the exact location of it, so some of these people weren't far off and it did actually contain, over a million dollars’ worth of gems and artifacts. But the Forrest Fenn treasure hunters are very interesting cases.

Erin Gust: [00:23:20] Oh, wow. And I didn't know it was actually found, so maybe, people have given up on it now.

Judge Hambrick: [00:23:27] Well, you would think, uh, but actually last year, I think it was about this time of year last year, the Rangers ran across an individual over on the west entrance, during the night.

[00:23:38] So it's a time of year where you can't drive into the park in a motor vehicle any longer. So, this individual was on foot, not close to any, I guess, civilization, for lack of a better word. So, they tried to track him down. They had a pursuit through the snow on foot till they finally found him.

[00:23:57] He had a metal detector on his [00:24:00] shovels and was prepared to camp out at night during the winter in the park. He was convinced that not all the treasure had been found. And so, he was back looking for more treasure, although there was not any particular reason to think that. So, I actually saw him in court and told him while his case was pending, he pled not guilty.

[00:24:19] He was not allowed back in the park. And within a few days, Rangers found him again in the exact same area. He had come in, in violation of his bond conditions, searching for the treasure again. So, the treasure hunt seems to grab certain individuals, and they really become obsessed with it. They’re, otherwise, law abiding individuals.

[00:24:43] They have normal jobs and appear to just be pretty typical individuals. But the treasure and the clues really seem to become an obsession with them. And they violate the law. They violate court orders, and it, it's really fascinating. 

Erin Gust: [00:24:59] [00:25:00] That really is fascinating. And the fact that people are still going after it, even though it's been bound.

[00:25:06] Did they tell you,

Judge Hambrick: [00:25:07] oh, no, no. I don't know.

Erin Gust: [00:25:09] You don't know?

Judge Hambrick: [00:25:10] No. Oh, not exactly. 

Erin Gust: [00:25:12] Just, just curious.

Judge Carman: [00:25:14] I had a number of defendants, tell me where it was. Interestingly enough, uh, never Was it the same place twice? And to this day I, since I don't know where it was located, I don't know if any of them were on the right track, but I understood it was down the southern part of the park somewhere.

[00:25:29] Is that correct? Judge Henry,

Judge Hambrick: [00:25:30] I think it was not far off of the West Entrance Road somewhere. 

Judge Carman: [00:25:36] Oh, okay.

Judge Hambrick: [00:25:36] Along there. 

[00:25:37] But I, I don't know for sure. 

Judge Carman: [00:25:40] The Forrest Fenn cases, they popped up the entire time I was on the bench, and then they continue to pop up for Judge Hambrick. 

[00:25:46] It was, it was rather fascinating.

[00:25:47] There was one gentleman who came into the park, and he was headed to the east, east of where Mammoth Hot Springs is, and he got himself up in that country. He was wearing like slippers, I mean, what do you call them? Driving mocks, you know, [00:26:00] kind of slip-on dress shoes.

Erin Gust: [00:26:02] Mm-hmm.

Judge Carman: [00:26:02] He wasn't equipped for the weather.

[00:26:04] It was in the fall. The weather turned on him. He fell. He lost his shoes. He lost his wallet, he lost his phone, and he was wandering around up there when they found him. He was close to close to dying. And, the Park Service took pity on him and said they felt like he'd learned his lesson.

[00:26:23] So they did not bring any charges and sent him back to Seattle in fact. He actually had a six-figure job, a very nice job with Boeing. Not too long after that, he was found back in the park heading back up in that country. Not well equipped, a little better equipped than he was the first time.

[00:26:41] Ultimately, he lost that six figure job and I don't think he is the one who found the treasurer. And they were just obsessive like, judge said it. They were, they were irrational about it. So, bond conditions didn't slow them down or death. I mean, [00:27:00] another gentleman died just outside the park over West Yellowstone.

Erin Gust: [00:27:05] Looking for the treasure. 

Judge Carman: [00:27:06] Looking for the treasure. A lot of people would not want to admit they were looking for the treasure, but walking around with metal detectors and shovels, it was pretty clear.

[00:27:14] So yeah, forest vent. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:27:16] And now there are sort of copycats, uh, people who, had also been treasure hunters of Forrest Fenn. And now that he's gone, there's another individual who I think has put out some poem or clues and says he's buried a treasure somewhere.

Judge Carman: [00:27:32] Copycat. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:27:33] Yeah.

[00:27:34] But it's strange.

Erin Gust: [00:27:36] Very strange. But I feel like kind of characteristic a little bit of the quirkiness of Yellowstone in some ways. You have this rich history that's very colorful of the robberies and then kind of treasure hunting in Yeah. What, 2025?

Judge Carman: [00:27:50] I think I heard ultimately six or seven people throughout the Rocky Mountains died looking for the treasure. because they searched, he lived in New Mexico at the time, but he'd [00:28:00] vacationed and he'd spent some of his youth in Yellowstone. And that was one of the focuses. So anyway, it's interesting, I started talking about cases and the other one’s pop into my mind.

[00:28:08] 

Judge Carman: [00:28:09] It is a little bit of a challenge, I think. What do you think There's 400 year-round residents in Mammoth Judge Hambrick. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:28:16] Oh. That's generous. 

Judge Carman: [00:28:19] Yeah. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:28:20] Year-round is probably 300, but yeah, not very big.

Judge Carman: [00:28:24] So it's a very small community and, everywhere Judge Hamrick goes everywhere I went, everybody knows you're the judge. There is no anonymity at all. And so, you were always the judge, you're always in the community. And so, you have to bear that in mind. But, as Judge Hamrick said, I never had anybody who tried to take any advantage of it.

[00:28:46] Quite frankly, the number of Park Service employees who appeared in front of me over my nine years on the bench, I think you could count on one hand. They were not the criminal lot, if you will. The Park Service employees are an amazing group, I [00:29:00] think. They are phenomenally dedicated.

[00:29:01] It's not always an easy job. It can be challenging. It's very demanding. The summers are hard. I remember when I first got there, Lee Pico with the US Attorney's Office, said, "You know, judge, when you get these rangers in August and September, remember they're tired. They are tired. It's been a long summer. Cut them some slack." And I saw the impact it had on them. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:29:25] We call it angry August. 

Judge Carman: [00:29:27] Angry August. So, the people believe in what they're doing, and they care about what they're doing. They love the park; they care about the park.

[00:29:34] And so it's a great community to live in. We haven't really talked about living there, but once the roads close on November 1st, Mammoth is a pretty quiet place. And winters in Yellowstone were just delightful. Just wonderful. 

Erin Gust: [00:29:49] Yeah, that was going to be my kind of follow up question.

 [00:29:56] What, what's it like to live in a [00:30:00] community of 300 people in Yellowstone National Park? I mean, it sounds like a dream, but it also sounds like perhaps there might be some difficulties of the grocery store and gas and friendships and relationships and those sorts of things. So, if you could speak on that, that'd be great.

Judge Hambrick: [00:30:16] It can be really challenging. So, I grew up in Casper, Wyoming, and I think when I left there to move to the park, it was around 70, 75,000 population. And I always said I'd never live anywhere smaller than that. And now here I am in Mammoth, and we've got a couple hundred people. Our closest community is Gardner, Montana.

[00:30:35] It's about 15 minutes down the hill. But it's also very small. I think its population is about 800. So, you're not gaining a lot. There's one very small market, a couple of restaurants. But there's not much in the way of services or anything. Our next largest town is Livingston, which is one hour up the road, where you would find like Albertsons and dentists and those types of facilities.

[00:30:58] So [00:31:00] for me it's been, it's challenging living in such a small place. One of the things I've said since I got there is I just want somebody to deliver me a pizza. Like that would really, I really miss that. It's the first world problems I know. But it's the things you don't realize you're going to miss, and getting a pizza at your door is still one of the things I miss the most.

Judge Carman: [00:31:18] I got to tell you, one of the things that, and I know Judge Hambrick, I'm sure she still does this. One of our powers we have is to ban people from the park. We have them removed from the park and they're not allowed to reenter the park. And, with these young Xanterra workers, I tried to be careful about that.

[00:31:34] These people had traveled to come to the park to work their summers. And so, kicking them out of the park was kind of a big hit. But they typically would either, if they didn't go home, they would just go to one of the surrounding communities and get jobs.

[00:31:48] So, it was in the summertime and, uh, I had that desire for that pizza Judge Hambrick mentioned, and it was not going to be delivered. But there's a pretty good pizza place called the [00:32:00] Yellowstone Pizza. I don’t know if it's still there right there on Front Street in Gardner. But you have to drive down and get the pizza and drive it back.

[00:32:07] I was batching it that time. I just had to have a pizza. So, I called up and ordered a pizza, gave my name and said I'll be there to pick it up. So, I got in the car and drove down there, and I walk in, and the entire restaurant is populated by a group of young people I have just kicked out of the park.

[00:32:24] And they were not happy about having been kicked out of the park.  And the looks they gave me made me think, I wish I had not given my real name. So, I took the pizza, drove back up the hill to Mammoth, called my wife and said, “Would you eat this pizza?” She said, “I would not eat that pizza”. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:32:45] I had a similar, same, same place when I was in the A-USA.

[00:32:48] I think it was actually maybe during COVID, and I had gone down to pick up a pizza in my name and I went in and somebody in the back of the restaurant said, I gave my name, and they said, oh, are you a [00:33:00] USA Hambrick? And I was like, I don't really, yeah. You know, what am I going to say? Yeah, so that's me. And he's like, oh, I have court with you next week.

[00:33:08] And I was like, oh great. And so, kind of similar, I said, well, I hope that you didn't spit in my pizza. And another guy, I think it was the owner, said he doesn't touch the pizza, so we ate the pizza, but after that, my spouse generally called and put the pizza order in her name instead of mine after that.

Judge Carman: [00:33:30] I just made-up new names. Every time I called in after that.

[00:33:35] I was driving back up, I'd gone down. I don’t know why down in Gardner; I was driving back up and a lot of times the young Zarian people don't have vehicles. They hitchhike back and forth from like Gardner up to the park. Also, down by Gardner there's some facilities like the laundry and stuff, so sometimes they need to get back and forth. There was a young guy standing on the side of the road hitchhiking, and I just knew he was a Zara employee. I thought, well I'll give him a ride. So, I pull over, he gets in the car, and I started [00:34:00] chatting with him and he's working in reservations and stuff, and he was from Illinois, and I said, “Well, how'd you get out here?”

[00:34:05] He said, “Well, I drove”. And I said, “Oh, so you have a car?” He said, “Yeah, I have a car.” I said, “Well, why aren't you driving?” He said, “Well, you took my driver's license away from me last week.”

Erin Gust: [00:34:16] Oh, my goodness.

Judge Carman: [00:34:16] I did. Huh? I had not remembered that. So, I didn't pick up many hitchhikers after that. 

Erin Gust: [00:34:22] Yeah. Oh man. Wow. Amazing stories and the pizzas.

[00:34:27] So, while I was researching for this podcast, I heard one story about an elk giving birth on the steps of the courthouse while you were presiding, judge Carman. Could you tell us a little bit about that? 

Judge Carman: [00:34:41] I think that that story deals with it were actually on the back step of the courthouse, not the front steps.

[00:34:48] And the court security, they have cameras all around it. And so, they saw that there was a cow back there, and it looked like it was going into birth, and it was right outside. Do you know the stairs as you go down to your courtroom, [00:35:00] judge Hemrick? 

Judge Hambrick: [00:35:01] Mm-hmm. 

Judge Carman: [00:35:01] And the outside door, right there in the stairwell, it was just so we could prop open the door and literally she was giving birth to the calf, within two feet of that door.

[00:35:11] And it's incredible, incredible. I mean, it was an incredible process. I mean, I've had, we have horses. I've been through the process with horses. So, it's a similar process and the calf is up so quickly. They have to be, I mean, calves are a delicacy for grizzly bears. And I've actually seen, and I've heard about it too, but I've actually seen it where you have a hillside and there's a calf on that hillside in the sagebrush.

[00:35:33] And you have a cow elk who is upset and there's a grizzly bear who's doing a pattern back and forth across the hill. because he knows that there's a calf in there, in the bushes somewhere, and he's looking for that calf. And the cow elk is screaming and yelling and that grizzly bear is just hunting that calf down.

[00:35:51] It is a difficult thing to watch, quite frankly. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:35:54] I think only about 25% of elk calves survive. It's not great for [00:36:00] them. And the elk mamas are extremely protective. Uh, so in the spring, you have to really be aware. because they, they tuck their babies like under, under stairways and in corners and yeah, if you are out in that vicinity, that elk mama will come and I mean they can be very vicious.

Erin Gust: [00:36:21] Mm-hmm. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:36:22] So you have to be very alert when you're walking to and from the office or out doing anything to not, get between a mama Elk and her calf. I've been chased once or twice by a angry elk mom. It's kind of, it's kind of scary.

Erin Gust: [00:36:36] Oh yeah.

Judge Carman: [00:36:37] Yes. 

[00:36:38] I had to run for it. I've gone into stranger's houses to escape, pursuing escape.

[00:36:44] Because you say the cows will get you in the spring and the bulls will get you in the fall. The elk rut is, is extremely dangerous as well. 

Erin Gust: [00:36:54] So have you had any other interactions on your way to or from work with? I mean, bison, [00:37:00] bears kind of, I'm just walking to work and, well, there's a grizzly. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:37:04] So I haven't actually seen a grizzly in Mammoth.

[00:37:07] But they've been around sometimes. But it's pretty common to be walking to work and you have to reroute to avoid, uh, bison or elk or, I mean, that's not unusual. There've been times I've pulled up, if I drove to the courthouse for some reason, I pulled up and I think, well, I'm going to sit out here for a while until the elk or the bison kind of clear from the doorstep.

[00:37:27] They're often just hanging right around the courthouse. And I mean that's, that's pretty, pretty common.

Erin Gust: [00:37:33] Traffic jam.

Judge Hambrick: [00:37:34] Yeah. Luckily, I haven't had any, other than being chased by that elk cow that one time. I haven't really had any bad interactions with animals. 

Judge Carman: [00:37:44] I've had a couple, when I was at the judge's house, which I said was a little bit more remote, one morning I was walking in and there's a judge's house and then there's a vacant lot kind of area.

[00:37:55] There had been something there previously. And then there's another house. And the [00:38:00] Park Service ranger was working on the front porch doing something woodworking. And I kept on walking; I glanced back to my left and there was a grizzly bear right around the corner of the house from him. So, I slowly backed up and got his attention and said, “You need to come here.”

[00:38:15] Because he couldn't have been 20 feet away from that grizzly bear just around the corner. And so, he came over to me and I explained, he showed him where the grizzly bear was. We called the dispatch. And so, the ranger came out and the ranger drives up and he immediately gets out his binoculars and starts looking at the hill up behind the house.

[00:38:30] And I said, no, it's right there. And so, they use sandbags or or bang guns that...

Judge Hambrick: [00:38:38] Cracker rounds.

Judge Carman: [00:38:39] Cracker rounds, that's it. To scare the bear and move them on up. That’s the only time I was outdoors and saw a grizzly bear in Mammoth itself.

[00:38:47] We did have some at the judge's house go right by the window, by our breakfast table.

Erin Gust: [00:38:53] Wow.

Judge Carman: [00:38:54] But I think the scariest thing I ever had, was it Elk 86? Was it, is that the mean 1 

Judge Hambrick: [00:38:59] [00:39:00] 24? 

Judge Carman: [00:39:00] Was it 24? 

Judge Hambrick: [00:39:01] Mm-hmm. He's still around.

Erin Gust: [00:39:03] 24. Yeah, still around.

Judge Hambrick: [00:39:05] Infamous, notorious 24. 

Judge Carman: [00:39:07] He's, he's a very, very aggressive elk during the rut.

[00:39:12] So it was in the fall, and my wife has sustained a broken leg while working as a volunteer for the Park Service. So, she was very, it was a substantial break, and so she was quite disabled, but we got her out on the front porch. And so, she was sitting there in the Officer’s row and 24 comes up and decides to become aggressive towards us being on the porch.

[00:39:33] I mean, he has like a four-foot rack. He is a massive animal, and he is aggressive, and I have my wife behind me. And so, I'm standing there, and he comes at the railing and I'm thinking, I can't do anything. I can't, I can't run away from him because I can't, my wife is immobile.

[00:39:51] And so he came up and he literally, I think his nose was maybe two to three feet away from me, and he was snorting at me. And I thought, [00:40:00] I'm in trouble. I don't know what to do. And so, we actually just stared at each other for a while and then he just kind of turned and walked away. And I thought, that was close. That was really close. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:40:14] Yeah, he's ramped my porch before, but we could jump up and hop inside. But yeah, he's, he's ornery, he's still around. He's been the dominant male during the elk rut, up around Mammoth, I think, since I've been there since 2020. And he was back this year. He comes back every year. He had gotten tangled in some Christmas lights and had to be guarded and taken the lights off.

[00:40:38] And so then they put a tag on him, and his tag is number 24. So that's how he got the name actually dressed as 24 for Halloween one year. He's infamous.

[00:40:49] Erin Gust: That's amazing!

Judge Hambrick: [00:40:50] That that year he'd gotten in a fight and broke off one of his antlers completely. So, but yeah, he's, he's been around for a while.

Judge Carman: [00:40:57] They used to name him. I mean they used to have like, there was [00:41:00] quarterback, broken nose and stuff, but they started going to numbers instead to try to make him less personal. I don't know why.

Erin Gust: [00:41:07] I'm surprised he is not Christmas lights. Yeah. 

Judge Carman: [00:41:11] That doesn't roll off the tongue. 

Erin Gust: [00:41:13] No. 

[00:41:15] Yeah. Wow. And so.

Judge Carman: [00:41:17] That was the lights right in front of the courthouse.

[00:41:18] He did that. Yeah. On the tree. 

Erin Gust: [00:41:21] Have y'all seen any of the wolves up there? 

Judge Carman: [00:41:23] Oh yes. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:41:25] Mm-hmm.

Erin Gust: [00:41:25] They're just beautiful. Oh, my goodness. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:41:28] It's a great day if you can get out and see a wolf in the park. Uh, couple winters ago, my son was up visiting. It was around Christmas time and we were out driving around and we spotted a wolf that was, well, we spotted a car and a pullout, so we pulled in behind it.

[00:41:47] There was just one other car there. And we got out and there was a wolf that was maybe 200 yards off the pullout sitting in the snow all alone. And it was a black wolf. And he looked at us and we looked at him, and if he had the [00:42:00] binoculars out, you could even see the steam coming from his breath as he was sitting there.

[00:42:05] And then pretty soon we heard some wolves howl off somewhere else and he howled back. And then in a few moments he got up and took off towards the other place. But it was great because like it was just us and the one other car that was there, there weren't a bunch of people around. He was relatively close to the road.

[00:42:23] I mean, it was an amazing sight. It's fun to see the wolves. 

Erin Gust: [00:42:27] they're really special. 

Judge Carman: [00:42:30] They are, it is an incredible thing to get them reintroduced. It was a major political issue, but it is phenomenal. Of course, usually Lamar Valley is where you go to see the wolves, but they're in other areas of the park and they come into Mammoth on occasion.

[00:42:43] I remember one, it was a snowy night back when I still lived at the judge's house and I had my border colleague, we were going to go out for a walk. It was beautiful, just fresh snow, quiet, crispy, you know that, living in the country you live in. But it was dark, and we were walking and we heard a, it [00:43:00] was clearly a wolf.

[00:43:00] You can tell the difference between a wolf and a coyote. And it was a wolf off to our left up on the, up in the hills. And we stopped and looked and that was okay, and we kept on walking. Then we heard another howl off to our right, and thought, well that's interesting. We took a few more steps and then there was one that howled in front of us.

[00:43:18] And, and I remember my dog and I looked at each other and we agreed that we were going home right now. My dog, his hair was standing up. He was, he was aware that we were not in a good spot. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:43:31] Yeah, we were shoveling snow one day and could hear some wolves off howling in the distance. And it doesn't happen a lot, but it's pretty cool.

Judge Carman: [00:43:39] It is. It is a great sound. But talking about sounds, you got to talk about the Bugling elk Judge Hambrick. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:43:47] Yes. So, during the rut, the male's, routinely bugle and it's actually very cool, right? And when the rut starts, you're like, oh, that's so cool to hear. And they'll bugle back and forth and things like that.

[00:43:59] But [00:44:00] after about six or seven weeks of it, sometimes they're up all night long and they're.

Judge Carman: [00:44:05] Right under your window.

Judge Hambrick: [00:44:06] Yeah, right under your right. In the housing areas. 

Judge Carman: [00:44:08] In the housing area.

Judge Hambrick: [00:44:09] They're pacing. They're up, they're howling all night long. So, after six or seven weeks, it's just like, oh man. Then you pass by them during the day and they're out with the rack on the ground, sound asleep because they've been up all-night howling.

[00:44:22] And, I mean, it's it's a cool, the bugling is really cool, but man, it gets really old really fast.

Judge Carman: [00:44:29] And it's hard to describe that. You got to hear the sound of an elk bugling. It is, it's an incredibly, a deep reverberating sound. It's a very, very powerful sound. 

Judge Hambrick: [00:44:42] Mm-hmm. 

Judge Carman: [00:44:43] So and the first few times you hear it in the fall, you just, oh, that's just wonderful.

[00:44:46] But after listening to it all night, you're kind of going, I don't like it as much. 

Erin Gust: [00:44:53] So, some of the local practitioners I've heard call the Yellowstone Court, the Cowboy Court.

[00:44:58] Will you please tell us about [00:45:00] that nickname? 

Judge Carman: [00:45:01] I wasn't, are you familiar with that one, judge Hemrick? 

Judge Hambrick: [00:45:04] I thought that you used that term. No,

Judge Carman: [00:45:07] I do wear a cowboy hat, and I ride horses, and so, it was my signature, you know, I wore my cowboy hat all the time in the park. I don't know that I'd heard the term cowboy court before, but I was known to be the judge who wore the cowboy hat and bolo ties are highly acceptable in my courtroom.

Erin Gust: [00:45:29] Are they still acceptable? 

Judge Hambrick: [00:45:31] Oh, yeah. I, yeah, that would be fine.

Judge Carman: [00:45:34] It's hard to convey to you what Wyoming's lack in the district of Wyoming, uh, because you're in the big city, but, in the history of Wyoming, there's been nine Article three judges, only two of them did I not meet out of the entire history of Wyoming? Maybe that's because I'm getting really old, but it's an incredible court family.

[00:45:55] And I had the chance to work in other district courts around the country and know judges [00:46:00] all around the country. And I don't know if there's any other district that's quite like us.

[00:46:04] I was down at the lake one time, we were sitting on the bench, and we were sitting on the dock with some friends, and some young people came up and started talking and they started talking about how there's a judge in the park and he puts people in jail. And, and I wasn't going to say anything. One of my friends said, yeah, that's him right there.

Judge Hambrick: [00:46:23] Oh, yeah. Towards the end of Judge Carman's time, he actually got a smaller plane and had it in Gardner and would fly to Jackson for court and would haul anybody who wanted to go. So I flew with them several times and I thought, man, I could really see the advantage of having a plane and a pilot's license up here, but I don't see that in my future.

Judge Carman: [00:46:48] Because in the summertime, in the wintertime, you had to go all the way around through Idaho to get there. It took forever. And the roads were bad. In the summertime, you had to go through the park, which meant you had to deal with all the traffic and the bear jams.

[00:46:59] So [00:47:00] flying over it was, it was like a 30-minute flight to Jackson versus hours on the road, and it was less than two hours to Cheyenne versus nine hours on the road. So it was, it was a handy thing to be able to fly around. 

Erin Gust: [00:47:12] So, a bear jam. I like that because I usually think of the bison jams, but a bear jam there.

[00:47:17] Oh, it's true. In the Lamar Valley where you stop and once, I see like three cars stopped, I got to stop because they must see something. 

Judge Carman: [00:47:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It gets frustrating, uh, at times.

Erin Gust: [00:47:29] I can imagine. 

Judge Carman: [00:47:30] But I know people want to see them as long as they're reasonable about it. 

Erin Gust: [00:47:34] Right, right, right.

Judge Hambrick: [00:47:36] The bad ones are where the Bisons just walking down your lane of the highway and don’t show any inclination to get out of your way.

[00:47:43] I mean, you can get stuck behind one of them for a long time. 

Judge Carman: [00:47:47] A long time, a long time. You hope that the bikes are coming towards you. It's when they're going your direction that you're in trouble. 

[00:47:54] The secret is to make sure that you stay close to the car in front of you. 

[00:47:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:47:58] You don't want to let them get [00:48:00] between you and the vehicle in front of you.

[00:48:01] That's, that's, yeah. You got to stay tight, which may upset the people in front of you, but you've got to keep the gap. Mind the gap. Mind the gap.

Erin Gust: [00:48:10] Well, I think we've taken more than enough of your time. I really appreciate it. This has been so fascinating. Thank you both so much. So, this is Erin Gust signing off from Tales from the 10th. Thank you.

Judge Carman: [00:48:24] Thank you, thank you. I enjoyed it.

Judge Hambrick: [00:48:26] Yeah, it was fun. Thanks, guys, for asking this, and thank you for doing this. 

Judge Carman: [00:48:28] This is a big job, and I appreciate you doing this for the 10th Circuit.

[00:48:32] This is Tina Howell, the editor and producer of Tales from the 10th. Thanks for listening. Subscribe and download at the Historical Society's website, 10th circuit history.org, or at Apple Podcast, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcast. Special thanks to Leah Schwartz, Greg Kerwin, Brent Cohen, and Diane Bauersfeld.

[00:48:55]