Letting Go of Self in Exchange for Real Joy with Dr. Merrill Greene // Part 2 // In Rest

Be sure to check out PART 1 of this episode to get this whole conversation, because it is rich! 

This episode further entwines the threads of faith and joy, with the addition of Dr. Greene's insights on the Christian perspective of true happiness. Together, we ponder the Sermon on the Mount, how pride keeps us from a joy-filled life, and how to trust Jesus with your life, embracing the notion that real joy can emerge from the midst of life's challenges.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

So glad you're joining us for the part two episode. I invite you to join us for part one if you haven't listened to that yet, and if you are just joining us from part one, welcome back. Here we are for part two. Thank you so much for joining us. Let's get to it. ["the Endrest Podcast"]. Welcome to the Endrest Podcast with Noah James Wieb. I'm your host, Noah, and today we are talking about joy. We're talking about joy as, yes, a theme in scripture, yes, as theology in our society, but also joy as something that can be received in our union with Jesus. I have here with me Merrill Green Dr Merrill Green and I'm really thankful to have him to be an interviewee today. So any other thoughts in that category?

Speaker 2: 0:59

I mean, it's often cliche in people who we always talk about. The people who have everything often aren't happy when they have those things right. We often look at the rich and say are they actually happy? But there's some truth to that, because one of the passages that always confused me for a long time in the scriptures was Jesus says if your eye is good, then your whole body will be full of light, but if your eye is bad, it will be full of dark. Yeah, healthier, unhealthier.

Speaker 1: 1:25

Yeah, healthy eye, and I was like what does that mean?

Speaker 2: 1:26

And I didn't understand this until I studied more. But I was like this is a Jewish way of saying if you're generous or if you're stingy, right?

Speaker 2: 1:34

If you're a generous person, your whole body is full of light, but if you're a stingy person, your whole body is full of darkness, right? So just from that one principle, like if you are a stingy, self-centered person, like that's where all types of evil things come from, right, but if you're a generous person, like you're only gonna create more of the fruit of the spirit, cause you're like, those are the two places, right, we often talk about, like, the difference between fear and love, but we don't often talk about the difference between generosity and stinginess. They're almost just opposite sides of a spectrum, right? And I think that if you're a stingy person, you can experience joy, and that doesn't mean you have to be, you know, giving all your money to the poor or not, kind of stuff but you should be giving it some.

Speaker 1: 2:17

Well, it's funny, the word miserly. You know, when we talk about Ebenezer Scrooge, he was a miser, he was miserly. So to be miserly is to be somebody who keeps things to themselves, basically a hoarder with a little cruelty splashed on, you know, just with a little, you know. And but that's where we get the word miserable. Miserable, so you're able to be miserly, meaning you're a pretty unhappy, horrible person. Now, horrible being miserable can mean that of quality, but also that sense of being overall pretty sad. But it's interesting how you say, like generosity versus stinginess, right, you know, health versus unhealth light versus darkness.

Speaker 2: 3:04

Now either love God or you love money. I mean, that's just what Jesus says, right.

Speaker 1: 3:07

And he says it literally, that right after he said that in Matthew chapter five. I'm pretty sure Matthew chapter five, maybe Matthew six, but he said that we're still in the sermon on the mountain, I guess. But he says right after he says the I thing you cannot serve. A person cannot serve two masters. They'll either hate one and love the other, although the spies the one and adore the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Speaker 1: 3:31

So you can't be all in on one way or the other, you gotta. You can be on all in, but you can't be all in on both. You have to do one or the other. So I thought that was funny.

Speaker 2: 3:42

It's funny because most of the sermons I hear on that verse they always like make money like a metaphor for other things. Right, like no, he just said money. It could just be that yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:53

And I mean there's the extension like because what you do with your money is what you do with your life in a way, oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:59

But like. I think that creating turning money into a metaphor rather than as an extension of the condition of your heart, because there's the actual practical extension, like if I'm not willing to give money to you, merrill, for some reason, like say, you're in a position of need and I don't, I have a few things going on Like I don't believe you, so I don't trust you, so I don't really love you or have relationship, like sometimes you can love people without fully trusting that you know they're going to follow through on commitments and so on. I mean, plenty of people have done that for me. But like, but when, when you have that, there's these other things that come in, where it's like, well, I don't want to give you money because whether you're in need or not, I don't care enough, I'm not motivated enough. You know, somebody once called motivation and I can't remember who it was, probably one of those self-help group or Max while somebody did yeah, or somebody one of those guys.

Speaker 1: 4:50

But motivation is basically I is more painful to not have this thing than it is to do the work it takes to have it. That makes sense. So it hurts me more to give you money than it would be for me to just give you the money and give you the general to give you the thing that matters. But if you're, your situation and you're suffering mattered enough to me, if your interests mattered enough to me, that the pain that might be involved with me sacrificially giving for your benefit is worth it, because it's more painful to me personally for you to go through need than it is for me to give that money. And so when you see that tension and that balance or maybe a ratio be better, you see that ratio work out in the right way, you have motivation.

Speaker 1: 5:42

If you have no motivation, basically you have to go back to apathy, laziness, you don't care enough, you don't have the motivation.

Speaker 1: 5:48

And sometimes you don't have the motivation because you're exhausted, because the exhaustion means that it's I don't have it in me to face the pain or face the cost associated with doing my dishes or going to work or whatever. But although sometimes exhaustion can look like that, that's that motivation piece is still present. That's the idea of it's more painful for this situation to exist than it is for me to pay the cost than I'm motivated to do it. So I'm not sure where the etymology comes from with the word choices there. But if we care, if we, if we serve money, that means that it hurts more for us to give than it does for us to see God's interest before us and miss the opportunity to partner with it. If we're serving God, we don't care if we have to give every cent we have. We're going to give everything we, everything within us, to make to partner with what he's doing, because it would be way worse to miss out on what all the God had for me than it would be for me to just lose some money.

Speaker 2: 6:55

You know what I mean. I mean, and the New Testament says you know, if you see your brother and you don't give him his the things he's for his, you know for your daily well being. I mean, it asks the question how can that person have the love of Christ in them?

Speaker 1: 7:07

Well, the answer is they don't Boom Right, and I think that, where we're in a process of maturity, sometimes God will bring up a verse like that and he'll address something in us Like there's probably been times when I've gotten angry during my devotions because I'm like what the heck this?

Speaker 2: 7:21

is offensive.

Speaker 1: 7:23

Do you mean to say that I am ungenerous? And then basically, the answer is basically yeah, so repent, it's not. It's not a you know, it's not that this situation is now final forever. But, anyway, yeah but that's the situation, that's the reality, one way or the other. So when you said some people don't want to be happy, that made me think of the cinematic masterpiece DreamWorks Trolls.

Speaker 2: 7:57

Now I'm worried about where we're going.

Speaker 1: 8:00

You're like, oh man, he's going to bring up, gone with the wind or something.

Speaker 2: 8:04

Shindler's list.

Speaker 1: 8:05

That's some deep stuff there, avatar 2. No sir Anna Kendrick and Justin Timberlake in Trolls. So the first Trolls movie there's a line from that.

Speaker 2: 8:16

Russell, they're breaking down for me because I'm not familiar with Trolls. Not really, no, okay.

Speaker 1: 8:19

We're maybe just having kids. For me it's just, I'm just in touch with that sort of stuff. But there's a character that he's actually an antagonist. But Russell Brand plays this guy.

Speaker 1: 8:29

I think his name is River, maybe anyway, but he says to Poppy, the main character, that well, some people just don't want to be happy and at the time the character that he was referencing was self-oriented, self-centered, prideful, but also deeply wounded and suffering from the tragedy of the loss of a loved one. So if you watch the movie, you have Poppy Branch and this guy, river, whatever his name is and River is presenting as this very peaceful, happy character. Poppy is just like hey, like wherever the part is at that's where I'm at but she's also a leader in that sort of generous which is very giving character, right, sort of almost a naive kind of generosity, not one that was birthed out of a process of partnering with God and repenting, but the kind of process of just like hey, like have whatever you want, like it was just a sort of a cultural thing that she's grown up with versus Branch, who is suspicious of that and is actually against that because he's aware of the truth. There's some real danger in the world and we should really address it. So Branch is kind of representing this other immature voice in which he's talking from this place of pain and tragedy and woundedness and loss and addressing on some really hard truths. And Poppy is on the other side where she's more immature and but she just she wants all the grace, if you wanna say maybe this is too much, but it is true.

Speaker 1: 9:59

When you watch the story you can kind of see those motifs playing out. But then you have Branch saying, no, we can't be happy right now, we have to address reality. And Poppy's like well, what do you mean? Reality is just fine as it is, let's just be happy and dandy.

Speaker 1: 10:13

Then you have this antagonist who maybe would present more the prideful, the more evil, the more self-centered, self-oriented, self-interested character who in the end spoiler alert who actually in the end turns out to be the betrayer, the one who is actually sacrificing everybody else's life in exchange for saving his own. And he says about Branch, who's trying to present truth and to do so out of a motive of love, perceivably, that he's saying some people just don't want to be happy. But you notice that in all of these examples, in that, whether it's from a place of naivete or tragedy, loss, woundedness and pain, or self-centeredness and self-interest, pride is at the root of these I find that the kind of people who suffer most with pride are the same kind of people who have suffered most, people that I know who end up turning into, say, a vulnerable narcissist. That's a DSM-5 little thing in there, because it's basically a variant lineage narcissist.

Speaker 2: 11:19

Slightly more sinister.

Speaker 1: 11:20

Yeah, but it's the reason why is because a vulnerable narcissist presents as very needy and yet, at the same time, still completely self-centered and self-oriented. But every person on planet Earth struggles with pride, and one of the ways that we can struggle with an emphasis in that way is in struggling with egoism as a whole is having our lives be flipped upside down and grasping for that control, grasping to have our needs met. So Jesus doesn't only address a lack of generosity, also addresses anxieties. He addresses cares, things that people are worried about, people who he's talking to have gone hungry before, and so he's not presenting a life that isn't going to be painful.

Speaker 1: 12:12

But he is addressing that you can't expect that your self-sufficiency is going to win the day.

Speaker 1: 12:19

Why are you anxious and worried about these things?

Speaker 1: 12:21

He even addresses it by saying how many of you, by worrying, can add a single hour to your life or a single strand of your hair or whatever right, you can't even make one hair gray or, in the other, black. Like you, don't have the ability to change a lot of the fundamental circumstances of your life, but you can trust the one who can, and so I find that what happens in a person who, whether they're wounded or evil or just unexperienced and not really in touch with reality and the truth of how difficult life is, what happens as a result of knowing Jesus, following him and giving into his love, is either hey, they get to this place where they're like, ah no, thank you, right, you might be all on the evil side of things, or you might find the person who is the more naive or inexperienced. They can't handle it, they can't handle the truth of the difficulties of life and they crumble and then they live in this sort of vacuum where they refuse to listen to basically chosen ignorance, right.

Speaker 1: 13:26

And then you have this other alternative, where you have healing and joy, when the healing comes in with humility, that humility precedes the joy, humility precedes the healing and humility happens afterward. Right, it comes at the conclusion. So I say all of that all from using the Trolls movie as a metaphor, because Branch's character, this rigid, hard, broken person, eventually humbles himself, confesses the thing that he's been wounded about this whole time and finds true, deep joy.

Speaker 2: 14:04

So I preacher, I listened to you just made a reminder about. He always used to say faith always precedes the manifestation. Right, you have to actually know what you believe in order to experience all the people who get healed. Your faith has made you well. Right, but we don't like that.

Speaker 1: 14:25

Yeah, because well, just what we're saying if you trust, if you're having faith, you're trusting that somebody else is gonna handle this for you, or you're trusting that God is going to take care of it with, in partnership with you, or whatever, however it looks. If he's the one calling the shots, that means that you are not.

Speaker 2: 14:43

Yeah right.

Speaker 1: 14:44

And if faith precedes the manifestation, then then if we're going to see that change, then we're gonna have to be okay with the discomfort that comes from trusting in Jesus, trusting in the one who can add an hour to my life.

Speaker 2: 15:01

Trusting in the one who can Many hours, Many hours. Yes.

Speaker 1: 15:03

I mean, I probably should be dead by now, Compared to, like in my life, without Jesus. Why would have died, you know, and he has added many hours, many days to my life, and but regardless, even if he hadn't, they used to worthy to be trusted, you know. So, all of that aside maybe not even all that aside let's just use that as a segue into what does it look like to have the practical outworking of joy in our life. So we've talked about a little bit of you know, the themes of joy in scripture. We've talked a little bit about the theology, a little bit of joy in society and in day-to-day life and people's lives. Tell me a little bit about how we receive joy. What are the things we do to receive joy? I mentioned a little bit about Branch and his healing journey from the cinematic masterpiece of DreamWorks' Trolls, but that kind of yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:06

I think that's a helpful segue into yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:09

I mean in the Sermon on the Mount, jesus almost just addresses that outright. He says the B attitudes right. I mean like happy is the one who you know is poor or is poor in spirit, or who is a peacemaker, right, those things bring happiness. So if we want to experience joy and experience happiness, we position ourselves in the way that Jesus says. These are the type of people that experience joy, right.

Speaker 2: 16:34

Why do the poor experience joy? Because they're not spending all their time trying to get right and they're not trying to have self-focused thoughts, right. Why do peacemakers experience joy? It's because anger and division does not bring joy, right. Peace and reconciliation bring joy. Like. So, if we want to experience joy, we need to become the type of people that God has in the B attitudes. But in heart it does come with sacrifice, right. Like it's not from our natural minds, it doesn't make sense, yeah, right. But you know, I often think of that passage from Corinthians where it says like. You know, like who knows the thought of a person except the spirit within that person, right. And who knows the things of God except the spirit of God? And his spirit testifies to our spirit. You know the truth of those truths and when we try to intellectualize, intellectualize, I can't say that word.

Speaker 2: 17:37

When we intellectualize our faith. We I think that we're missing the boat, because it's not a cognitive thing, right? If you were to live your life in a rational life, from the world's standard, you would not experience joy. Right, we need to live completely upside down and then when we do that, then we'll experience joy. And it's gonna be really hard because you have to learn to do things that seem counterproductive and things that, will you know, scare you sometimes, right, when God asks you to do things and you're like, well, why am I going to do this thing? He might not tell you right, and you just have to trust and obey. Right, trust and obey.

Speaker 1: 18:16

Trust and obey. It's true. It's true To be happy in Jesus is to trust and obey, To be happy right. To be happy in Jesus.

Speaker 2: 18:23

you know Exactly, I used to like I used to hate that, but I was just like that's so stupid. We hate just trust and not have. You know, people are always like you have to have, you have to use wisdom. It's like, yeah, but sometimes the wisdom you're using is worldly wisdom, right, but all the time people are just like, well, exactly the wisest thing to do. I was just like, oh, jesus did it. It seemed pretty wise to hit him.

Speaker 1: 18:43

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Speaker 2: 18:44

Like that's the thing is. People use wisdom, they redefine it to be like well, this is wisdom, because everyone says it, because Oprah said it, you know.

Speaker 1: 18:53

We have to write in our gratitude journals or like right?

Speaker 2: 18:57

No, like what is the wisdom of God? And you have to read the Bible and search the scriptures to know that.

Speaker 1: 19:02

Yes, yeah, oh wow.

Speaker 2: 19:04

But people, I mean. I've heard so many sermons where, like this, the straightforward meaning of the passage is just completely neglected because they want to, because that's too hard, right? I remember my friend Ben always used to say you know, at the end of a prayer, people would always say and all God's people said, and they would usually say amen. Well, he would say and all God's people said that's too hard. Oh, oh man, yeah. So yeah no joy comes from weirdly doing hard work. Yeah, yeah, but again, we're built to work.

Speaker 1: 19:40

Right so yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:42

I'm sure that's not what you expected to hear in the EnRest podcast, peeps, but it's true. Man, yep, and working from our union with God, not to earn union with God, but working because we're loved. Yeah, because we receive that love. We live it out, because we're founded on what Jesus did for us on the cross, because the fundamentals of our life are not in our own interests, but instead of something, instead in something much more solid. Jesus also makes the claim to, not the claim, but he says so that anybody who builds their life on my commands anybody who obeys what I've told you in the Sermon on the Mount.

Speaker 1: 20:21

I like how we've basically gravitated around Matthew five to seven. This is awesome, but he says it in chapter seven he says anyone who does, who hears these words and kind of comes with that sort of undergirding of who understands what I'm saying, who kind of takes it to heart, who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice, right, like last series that I did before, the Live your Best in Christ series was all about practices for peace, right, practices that result in peace. But he says if you hear these words of mine and put them into practice, then you will be like the person who built their house on a rock. The winds blew, the rain came and the storms beat against that house and it did not fall because it was built on a rock. And that's the kind of life that we get to live.

Speaker 1: 21:18

Adversely, if we insist on our own way, then it's like we, like Jesus, says if you hear these words of mine and do not put them into practice, and there's a sense of almost like a wrestling with it, like you're hearing what I'm saying but you're basically saying nah, no, thank you, and do not put them into practice. It's like you're building your house on the sand and the winds come and the rains will fall and the storms will beat against that house and it will crumble and great will be its fall. Whoa, you know. Great in the sense that at least when I read in the New Testament maybe I mean you're the New Testament scholar, not me but whenever I read the word great in the New Testament, I kind of think of not just like great, like woohoo, great, like great, you know, Frosted Flakes, great.

Speaker 1: 22:05

But like great in the sense of very big, very widespread. There's a large scope to how this fall takes place and the crumbling of this. What do we do to practice this?

Speaker 2: 22:21

Building our lives on the rock, do you mean?

Speaker 1: 22:23

Yeah, building our lives on the rock, but, yes, the extension also of okay, yeah, we want the byproduct of joy, but not just for our own self-interest. We want that because it seems to us that this is the life that God has for us. If that's what God is offering, I want it. You know, maybe you've heard that when people have heard about a Christian story of being saved, rescued, delivered, redeemed from addiction or whatever else, and they said I see the joy in you and I want that. How do you, what do you practice practically to see this lived out?

Speaker 2: 23:00

For some reason, John 14 keeps coming to mind.

Speaker 1: 23:02

Okay.

Speaker 2: 23:03

Talk us about that. John 14, where he says don't let your heart be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. My father's house are many mansions. I'm going to go prepare a place for you. And he says if you love me, you will obey me. Recirculating the same themes almost this joy seems to come from because it's a lack. Of don't be anxious don't fear.

Speaker 2: 23:32

The opposite is having this joy and peace. It comes from love and obedience and it comes from being able to sacrifice the things that the world does not promote. I think it comes down to taking the heart the actual things that the New Testament, the Bible in general, says about what it is like to live in the kingdom, and then you will experience joy. I think that it comes down to obedience. At the end of the day, there is no joy where there's no obedience. Even from a practical level, when we think of the effects of disobedience in the Old Testament, for example, I guess we're going to get invaded Probably show love to God more.

Speaker 2: 24:20

I wonder if it's Persia today is going to get us. I just think that there's a simple but difficult answer to the question. Abedience isn't easy, but it's good. It's like eating veggies. We don't always want to eat vegetables. That's what you'll learn to love them.

Speaker 1: 24:42

That's it. Thank you for that.

Speaker 1: 24:47

I think that whatever you're listening, whatever you're going through right now struggling with reading in your devotions lately and you get the sense that God is saying something to you and he's putting something on your heart. Maybe it's nothing that we've talked about today, but maybe it's something that you know, that he's been wrestling with you about this thing for a while. Maybe it's that check that you need to cash. Maybe it's that lie that you need to figure out how to stop believing. Maybe it's that counseling session that you need to book today. Maybe it's that business that you need to start, or a church that you need to plant, or a ministry that you need to take steps toward.

Speaker 1: 25:32

Whatever it looks like for you, obey Jesus. He'll give you his joy, not just because of the byproduct, not just because oh awesome, there's joy. That's cool. That joy and peace that comes from our relationship with God, which is given from him, which comes as a result of working and living the way he calls us to live and work. That sustains us, it empowers us. I think the Bible says in Romans 15, 13,. I've been hearing this verse a lot and it's may the God of hope fill you with joy and peace in believing or, as you trust in him so that, by the power of the Holy Spirit, you will overflow with hope, guys this is not a worldly joy.

Speaker 1: 26:24

This is a spiritual joy. This is a joy that comes from the Holy Spirit, from God himself, given to us. So it doesn't depend on whether or not you have your act together. It depends on whether or not you're willing to have union and ongoing relationship with God and love. Relationship with God that is based on trust and obedience, because as you trust and obey, he will entrust to you the thing that you're called to do. He'll trust you with the people you're called to lead or care for. He'll trust you with the ministry, the service, the car, the money, whatever. He'll trust you with those things and he'll follow through on his promise to provide for you and to care for your needs and, in the end, to give you what your heart has truly longed for, which is the day when Jesus gets everything that he's been waiting for.

Speaker 1: 27:24

And the day that Jesus comes and makes all things new, when all death and crying and sorrow and mourning and pain are gone. You'll receive not just the fulfilling of his promise today, but even greater. Those things will just be a glimpse of the stuff that you're going to look forward to in the day to come, and we can rejoice in that hope, in the assurance that that good is on its way. If you have nothing else to be joyful for today, be joyful that the day is coming when there will be no longer any more sorrow or mourning, or crying or pain. The day will come when the Father will wipe every tear from your eyes and all will be well. So if you have nothing left to be happy for today, if you're in literally rock bottom mode, today and your coffee sucks and that's rock bottom.

Speaker 1: 28:15

Listen, no man. Listen, if you ain't got nothing and you're drinking churrig. You lost your family, you got to divorce, your dream, your career's falling apart and you ain't drinking nothing but Nescafe instant coffee with dirty water. Man, that's not good. But seriously, if you have nothing left, you have the permission and the approval to be happy because of that bright, prosperous future, as you trust in Jesus and obey his word and his will for your life. Dr Mary-El Green, thank you so much. Thank you For being with us today. How can my listeners connect with you in the future? I know that you've written books or you're writing books.

Speaker 2: 29:05

Tell us about that. Yeah, so I just published my first book this year, which is called the Weirdness of God, so that talks all about basically like how can we discern what things are truly from the Holy Spirit and which things are not? And we can't just look outside physical things to determine that. And I'm writing a new book right now called Drunk in the Spirit.

Speaker 2: 29:22

Which actually touches on the topic of joy, like when we look at people in certain circles who are on the floor and they're experiencing something that looks odd to us. Is that really from God? And if it is from God, what are they experiencing? And there's a lot of people who experience great joy that comes from that. So I talk a little bit about that. But the best way to connect with me is probably I mean, I'm on social media, but also through my website, weirdgodcom, and then everything that is about me is on that website and there's ways to contact me there as well.

Speaker 1: 29:52

Okay, thank you so much for that. So if you're just in Google, Dr Mary-El Green, Weird God, and hopefully you don't get any other weird results from that, Thank you again so much for being with us.

Speaker 1: 30:02

If you are an in rest podcast subscriber, thank you hey leave a rating on Spotify or wherever else you're listening to this, so that the word can get out to other people. Share this with somebody who you think will benefit from it, and feel free to send us a DM as well. Inrestinsta on Instagram, facebook, it's just inrest podcast Facebook page. That's awesome. We'd love to hear from you and connect with you. This is on Spotify, it's also on YouTube, so that's cool too. So if you're like, hey, listen, I have no interest in listening to Spotify or getting a Spotify account, okay, all right, relax, just go to YouTube, that's fine, or iHeartRadio or wherever else, but we'd love to connect with you. We'd love to hear how God is moving in your lives and hear how to pray for you. Thank you for being a listener and thank you for joining us today on the in rest podcast with Noah James Weeb and with Dr Mary-El Green. Would you please pray for us as we close?

Speaker 2: 30:53

Thanks man, definitely, father. Thank you so much that you bring joy, but it's not joy from the world, it's not the way that the world approaches it, and we pray that everyone who's listening, everyone who is calls on the name of Jesus, they would understand what it is that you're calling them to, and it's a place of adventure and joy and peace. And even in the times where it seems so difficult, lord, you'll make a way, and I just ask that for everybody who's listening, that if they're going through just tumultuous times right now and chaos in their lives, that they would stop and breathe and remember your promises, lord, and rely on you and on their own understanding. Praise things in the Lord Jesus name, amen, amen.

Speaker 1: 31:32

Amen elected president Malcolm Jones.