How Constructive Feedback Helps Teams Build Better Software - Vicky Pirker

On this episode of Coffee with Developers we welcome Vicky Pirker, UX Consultant and Founder of Vicky Pirker UX Consulting, to talk about better software is built by getting better at giving and receiving feedback.

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello and welcome to another coffee with developers. I'm very excited to have Vicky Perker with me today. She's one of the people that sent a talk in to talk at our Congress. And the topic caught my eye. So I thought even if we don't go, if we're not going to have that talk at the Congress, it might be interesting to talk about it in more detail here at a coffee with developers. So without further ado, here is Vicky Perker. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Hi, Chris. Um, hi everybody from this uh beautiful city of Seitzburg, uh in Australia. Thank you. I'm I'm pretty fine, and uh it's such a big honor to be here and talk about one of my favorite topics.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

And yeah, what topic is that? What's the title that you send in and that caught my eye?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I guess this is uh clickbait. Um this sucks. That was the title of my talk. Um, but I'm going to tell you nicely uh developer guide how to give better feedback.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

And I mean, uh straight honesty amongst developers is a thing that happens. So, like, uh I mean, especially in the European and in the Austrian-German space, like uh when I work with American companies, I always had to teach people how not to be German about feedback. Because when something's broken, we basically say, like, that's broken, let's fix it. Like, why do you why do we discuss this? But I always told people you have to also talk about like how much effort went into it, that it's actually not bad, that it's actually a problem, that it doesn't work, but like uh you have to to skirt around the issue a bit. Whereas like in the European space or in the uh in the German-speaking space, the bluntness of actually is requested or required required, and people don't take it as hurtful as they do in American places or in South America or even Asia. Like it's a it's a more interesting uh feedback. So, what would you say is the the issue there that that that people have to have to change? Like, how do you get the best feedback out of people, or how do you get the best actions out of your feedback?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yeah, I think um this is a lot of um different aspects here. One is a psychological uh bias. Um, you see the um cognitive bias cortex behind me. The point is even that we are very strict, um, you know, as German, we see, oh, this won't work. Let's go and find a solution for that. It's a fact, right? But it's like there is uh if I call it IKEA bias, which means if I made something, this is my baby, and I do get hurt in my feeling if people is telling me this is you you did it not good, you did it wrong, this is not um a good job, then you do get hurt um because it's your baby, you made that. So you know, nobody wants to hear that your work is garbage, everything you made is wrong because it it just hurts, okay? It just hurt inside, and nobody wants to hear that. Even you know that maybe this person that is telling you that your work is not correct, um, is true, it's still hurt in the feeling. So uh uh you are a developer um advocate, and I am as a UX person, we always call ourselves as a user advocate, but I think um I prefer um the wording maybe human connection advocate because it doesn't matter if you are a developer, your business person, your designer, um, your user, you are human, right? And we want you working and living in an environment where, you know, just try to be a little bit nicer to the other person. Um, as you said, you don't know why this person made the solution to solve this problem. You don't know the journey they have been taken. Maybe they have tried five different approaches that didn't work, and this is the best thing that came up with. What they want is they want you to help them. Yeah, this is a different culture stuff to be strict or not to be strict. Um, and my friends always tell me, you know, Vicky, you're just too honest, and sometimes it's not good. Um, I've been very honest with my family, as with my friends, you know, they know me, and that's a good thing, but um just like I want to um keep this warm, um, nice and friendly um environment, a working environment and a working place. So um I never tell my colleague, you know, this sucks, right? Just hey, um, what what is the reason that you find this solution to solve this problem? Why did you do that? Is there a better way that we can uh make it even more efficient or stuff like that?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

I mean, you you said there's a developer's guide for better feedback. Like what are like some things that people should do, like count to 10 before they answer, or like what what are some tricks that you find have worked for you?

SPEAKER_01 4:34

You know, I am a person. If I try to understand something, I dig um I dig uh very deep into the material to understand the mechanics. So there's the not only the psychological part, but also the neuroscience. So counter turn is definitely a good tip, but um, even better is the simple it is just keep bracing because we have a prefrontal cortex, we have amygdala and um hypocampus, just this neuroscience stuff. You need to know that first thing before you explode, you know, just breeze in and breeze out, take five to six seconds. That's why people say count to ten. Uh, this is the first thing to calm you down before you say something that you will regret later. And I think one tip that really worked out for me and also for the other tech people is it's also a number one rule in UX speak your stakeholders' language, you know, because we we are like to um use the jargon, the the very special words that we're using, maybe the rest of the people they don't understand. Think about when you have to talk to business people, maybe to project manager who has who does not have a better or good understanding of the project of the issue that you are facing as a developer. And if you're telling them, you know, I did this um as in um analyze this, and there's a big issue in the API, and we try this and that, and you know, maybe they don't understand the it cannot understand the um problem that you're trying to explain. It is better to speak um their language, make them understand what is the impact of this issue that we are facing. Does that mean we cannot reach the deadline we have, or does that mean we need more resources, or we need an expert to help us and stuff like that? Um, just give you a well uh very simple example. Um, I had a chat with my neighbor, and we were talking about her website, and she asked me, the system is telling me I should buy this add-on. What is the add-on? I said, you know, you can buy this and you get more features that you can do. And I see that she is looking right into my eyes. She looks through me like I was invisible. She didn't understand what I was saying. I said, Okay, how can I explain to her what is the add-on? And then I saw this small uh Batman Lego on her table. And I said, Okay, look, let's try this. Um, this is a small Batman Lego, you can play with it standalone. You don't need anything special, but you can also buy the Batman mobile. You know, you can put Batman inside, you can drive with him, you can shoot special weapons out of the car and stuff like that. Um, you have to buy this to get the special um features. So the the other way to play with Batman, but you don't have to. So this is at um, and at that moment, I saw the sparkles in her eyes. It's like, okay, now I know that she understood what I was trying to explain. But from my experience, when you talk to business people, they are more interested in um what does that mean for our customers? What does it mean uh for return investment? What does it mean uh in money in time? And if you talk to project managers, you want to know um are we going to meet the time and budget um that we have planned? What does that mean? It could be a little bit pity that you don't get a chance to talk about your job, uh, talk about it in details. Of course, if you talk to your tech lead, um sometimes it depends um who you're talking to. When you talk to your tech lead, you want to uh maybe some support for him uh to get this issue um solved or with senior developers. But um uh in my UX workshop, I always ask um icebreaker questions. And one is what does UX mean to you? And this year I got one of my favorite answers from a front-end developer. He wrote, UX is the necessary evil of the job. And I think I think this is this is a very interesting answer because um I've been speaking for three years at a very different tech conference, and most developers told me that they have um to talk to not techie, not tech savvy people. And this is a huge issue for them because it's just like even we are speaking the same language, um, they just don't understand. There's like two different um groups there, and there is an invisible war between them. And even they are using the same language, there's a big gap between what they are saying. A does not understand B, B does not understand A. This necessary evil of the job, you have to do that, just part of the job, you know. And why should we just make it better? Because it's just easier for everybody to working in a place where we're everybody trying to be uh to make one step towards the other person. I think this is a um better way to work with, it doesn't matter who who you're working with.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

How do you skirt the issue of becoming condescending? Like when you take highly technical things and you explain them in like real-world comparisons, it's very effective, but it can come across as like, okay, now you're actually explaining it like the other person is stupid. Like, how do you how do you avoid this?

SPEAKER_01 9:54

You you don't want to pretend that the other person is stupid, and I think nobody's trying to harm the other person intently. You can try to start with um the very technical part, um, how like you would explain to your peer. And but when you see that people is not understanding, I think you you would notice that, or maybe you just ask them, you know, um, did you understand what I was saying? Or um do you have any questions? I mean, yeah, do you have any questions? Most times people just don't ask questions, especially in uh German and Australian culture, right? We don't ask questions because um there are stupid questions. Feedback, I think, is not only when we have make appointment and let's say, okay, Chris, tomorrow at 10 we will have our feedback session. That is, of course, one feedback that you have as an employee in a big company. You have your uh yearly review and stuff like that with your lead. But feedback is also, you know, when people is discussing um a subject, a project, and one person says something and another person gives the feedback. That is also feedback. Um immediately you say, Oh, this is a good idea, right? This is a very positive feedback, or they say, I don't think this is going to work, right? This is a bad, uh bad feedback, uh critical feedback. Um, and what we're trying to do is I think at the end of the day, we want to bring people together to solve the issue because we as a team, we're working on the product, on the service, and we want to be successful at the end of the day. So um we're trying to explain something, and we if the people don't understand, so speak your stakeholders' language is really when people do not understand what you are seeing. And I think they are um even developer is talking to developer, you're using different language, you have a different um levels, you know. Um, some has been app developer, the other has been web developer, they have very different experience. Um, sometimes even they don't understand each other what you are saying. This also depends on your mental model, uh, what kind of project you have been. Uh you have done small projects, you have done big projects. Um, this is um very different from case to case. Um but at the end of the day, we're trying to, and this is a common big goal that we want to achieve, is we want to be successful as a team. Always remember that to be a little bit more empathic.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

One thing that worked for me in the past was always like before I saw something was broken. I I we had to fix it, it was an issue. But instead of just pointing this out, I asked, like, how was the process so far? Like, how did we get to the state that it's in right now? And oftentimes you learn that way that people had to take shortcuts, that they couldn't do things that they wanted to do because they didn't have the resources. And that allows them to vent a bit actually their frustrations before you actually come in with your demand to fix the thing. So you're going on the same level to actually start fixing the problem, but also finding out it wasn't that person's fault, it was just the circumstance.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Definitely, definitely. This is uh what we call the UX, the context of use, you know. Um, even it's the same issue, you don't know what is the constraint in this special project or in this environment, just like you said, what is the journey of the team of the person who has been taken until here to solve this problem or to come so far, right? Maybe there was already the second step, there was a big mistake, but nobody was aware of that. That could that could be possible. And um, since we've been talking about the German and Australian culture, finger pointing is thank goodness, not that often now, but it's still sometimes the issue, you know, because sometimes sea level wants to know if there is a um big problem, um, what happened, who did that, why did that happen? I mean, of course, we're more focusing on the root cause. We want to know what we can do in the future to avoid this kind of mistakes, but still at the end of the day, someone got blamed. And I think that um it is important in the company to create a safe space, more positive environment where people are not afraid to ask questions. Um, because when you um create this safe place where the ideas and um it doesn't matter how crazy the idea is, get a place to grow, then this is where innovation begins.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

I found a weird situation lately. Like we've been we've been doing this for years, and I love that when I worked for Microsoft, the big the big call from the company was like find the unmet need of our users. Like instead of just saying, like, we built this thing, like ask people how they use the thing and ask so many times until you find like actually what the person would need is that, rather than like saying, like, we want this feature because your competit competitor has it, and these kind of things. So we spend a lot of time on the in-between humans. Now we're in a completely different world right now with AI and with like Gen AI and also with like uh generative agents and an agentic web coming up. I have a hard time using uh LLMs and using agents efficiently because the way you have to talk to them to get the best results out of them, those those systems, is horrible. It's like a very uninhuman way. You have to tell them and say, like, don't make mistakes and do that and don't give me anything extra. And like all the bits that we said, like in in in the human communication, never ever do that to a person because it comes across as super aggressive or it comes across as like uh a condescending or annoying. We have to do that with these agents and those virtual people that we work nowadays with. Do you think this is something that like uh could deteriorate our communication with each other as well? That we're actually forced to become this very aggressive, uh demanding people in our day-to-day jobs?

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Yes, definitely. I've been talking about with uh other developers, uh techie people who also have kids, because I'm also a mother of twins, and uh my kids are still small. Um, they're turned to five in the summer, but a little bit older kids, like the teenagers who are turned 10, 11, 12, um, the especially the youngest one in the family, they really like to talk to Alexa and stuff like that, you know, because you have to be very polite to your parents, to your uh siblings, but to the computer, you can just yell at them, Alexa, turn on the lights, right? Uh, this is not the way that you would talk to a normal human. And um it's definitely going to affect us. Depends on how the humanity is is going to evolve in the future. Because this is a very different way, as you said, when we talk to machines, when we talk to AI, uh, we because we want to be efficient, right? I think this efficiency thought is um very important for us um to be successful um in our professional life. But in the human connection, um there are just so many aspects that you cannot control. You know, you cannot tell people, don't talk to me like this, don't talk to me like that, I want you to be this, uh, the other person wants to be touchy, the third person cannot look into the other person's eyes. There are just so many um human aspects that you cannot um imitate as a machine, um, even so that um Andropic um Claude is imitate um emotions, um, but this is not the same. I think this is going to be very interesting in maybe 10, 15 years because we've seen that um the generation alpha, I think, the 20 um uh human, they prefer more texting than talking. Um, this is the one very uh interesting pattern that we have now is you know, always um give the people the possibility to control how you're going to contact them. So in the contact forms, you should um asking for um telephone number is really necessary, and you should um provide this checkbox um text me only, no phone call, something like that. Because so many people just don't want to talk to a um uh a person they don't know on the telephone, or kids, you know, sitting on the table and they don't talk to each other, they write um messages um to each other.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Yeah, I mean it's also synchronous. That's always the thing that annoys me. When somebody calls me, it interrupts everything else. Whereas, like reading a text, I can still do something at the same time, or I can still make myself a coffee or something, but when I have to hold up my phone or even with the phone to speak, it's very uh it's very disruptive. It's very much like uh wanting it directly from me. But uh the other thing that I found bizarre is that like you had these chatbots that were so uh sycophantic and so uh uh uh like subservient, and that always uh annoys me the most. Like people get like uh um we seem to be getting a whole generation of people that think that they are cleverer than they are because the machine tells them, oh, that was such a good question, that was so wonderful, and thank you so much for doing that. And it feels like this is a very bizarre, it's appetizing to a degree, but to me, it feels like this this breeds a lot of people that actually think they know much more than they do.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Yes, I mean uh critical thinking is one of the most important skills that we want to teach the younger people now, you know, um, to understand and to really think it is really a good thing that I'm doing. It's this really uh honest answer from AI, from whatever who is saying, is it fake news? So many we have information overload nowadays. You really need to um be critical about all the information or the feedback that you get. It's a hard job, to be honest. Hard job for the kids and hard job for the um parents. Who is not responsible for for the kids if not their parents?

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yeah, you would think so. I mean, you you would hope that not that not uh Alexa is their teacher, but the parents are caring for the kids and spend some extra time with them as well. But that's the same with like feedback systems in the in your products as well. Like I heard a thing today, or read a thing today, that actually most tickets that you write these days are actually prompts because all the systems actually have an AI layer before even somebody looks at the ticket that comes in. This was a one-on-one conversation between humans. A ticket was something I filed to get the person to do it or to come back and say, like, I need more information, and these kind of things. Do you think we're automating uh a few of those direct channels that we have away and uh for the sake of just using AI?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Um I'm sorry, I have to give you the typical consultant. The answer it depends, right? Um, I I heard that um I think Klana um has fired um so many um customer success engineers, I think that was the name of the job role, and half a year later um they just get them back because they figured out the customer center where you get actually the direct contact with your customers. And let's be honest, most of the time they are frustrated, they are not happy with your product or with your service, so they want to complain about something, they want to get um their problem solved. And you know, when you just get AI, make sure you not understand what is your problem, or you don't have this trust to the AI that is talking to you, and or it just misunderstands your problem, you get so frustrated, um, you will say, Okay, I won't use this service anymore. And this is a very critical point in a business um product circle because this is where you really um lose your customers. Um so, but of course, if we think about um all those automated. Report that is happening in product, you know, uh, for example, like um if computer or a Windows is has some issue and sending automated report, and uh there is a small uh um window that you say, yeah, send a report to Microsoft or do not send the report. Of course, this kind of thing should be automated because me as a user, I will not write a long report what is happening here and what went wrong, right? That it that it's easier for the system to collect all the information that you have and send it to the Microsoft.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah, especially as it as it needs detailed information that you would probably not know as an end user and you don't care about at all. So, but I mean the machine actually had this has all this telemetry, has all the information, and you can send it in there, but you can still customize it to and to uh uh to an end user. I think the other problem that I find is that with the speed that we have these days, social media has become the most unsocial thing I've seen. It's just like it's a competition vying for attention, it's a competition of like trying to be the one that is correct and the other ones aren't. It's not actually helping the uh inner human communication anymore, does it?

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Definitely, definitely. Um I forgot the word I read uh last week on LinkedIn. Um it's it's a combination that somebody is chasing for likes, you know. Um when you send a post that you just look every half hour and say, Oh, do I get new likes? Oh, do I get new comments? Oh, I have to answer this and I have to answer that. One way the internet and the social media platform is connecting people. Um, for example, otherwise we will not meet each other if we don't have this kind of technology, right? On the other side, um, just like you said, it's like we are trying to meet a machine algorithm that the system is giving us. Um, so we're doing a very unhuman way to connecting to each other. We have uh a big um discussion a few weeks ago here in Australia about um the social media um to forbidden social media for kids, I think, under 14 years old. And there was a huge debate um is it a good thing or is it the bad thing? Um, and we have seen it in Australia that once you have said, okay, this is forbidden, definitely other ways. Kids are very smart nowadays. Um, how to you know to avoid this to still get information. I mean, this is the internet, right? Uh, you can get information if you really want. We need to keep this human connection, I think, especially in this crazy um AI era, you know, everybody just using AI and AI and AI. And um, I'm I'm happy that um I have the experience from both worlds. One is a techie word. We're talking about the next agent, the next MCP, and all the next protocols. And in the other um, world where I teach um uh people, um, I give in the AI course for beginners. And the funny thing is the average age is like 65 and plus. So um, all these retired people, they want to know what is this AI? What can this do? Um, how can it help me in my daily life? We're talking really about basic from basics, and they don't they even have a huge issue to prompt and then also ask questions: why do I have to write text? Why can I talk to it? Why should I have to talk this way that you know understand what I want from it? Um, so and they say, oh, yes, I know that my grandson and my granddaughter, they don't even talk to me, they talk to Alexa, they talk to their computer, they talk to their phone, but they cannot talk to people, they can talk to other machines, but they cannot talk to people. Yeah, this is a demographic uh change that is happening. We will see the impact maybe in 20 or 30 years. But um I still think that we as a human, we're going to evolve the machine, hopefully. And um we need to stay focused on this nice human connection, you know, look in the other person's eyes when you talk to them, and um try to be a little bit more empathic um to the other person, and of course, try to slow down a little bit. I think we are living in a very fast-paced world nowadays, and just like be more efficient, be more effective, uh, even faster and better and cost less um everything we do. We we we are designed to optimize everything that we do. Um, but you know, at the end of the day, why do you go work because you need money? And why do you need money? You want to live your life, right? We want to be human, yeah. We want to be seen, to be heard, to be understood, to be understood, I guess. Still don't forget the end of the day, you are not a machine, you are human.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Now, uh, what made you send in the request to speak at the World Congress? What are you excited about most about it?

SPEAKER_01 27:03

One of the biggest um developer conferences in Europe. And um, I've heard it last year and tried it, um um, but it didn't succeed. And uh I've been uh um to a couple of other conference in June, so I had to stay home a little bit with my family. But this year I planned to go to visit the Congress uh anyway. Um, doesn't matter if I'm going to be selected or not as a speaker, because and this is one of the reasons why I want to share what I learned with the um developer community, because even so, most people still think developers are um coke drinking, you know, with long hair, listen to rock music and stay in the basement. It's not it's it's not always true. We still have that kind of um hardcore developer, but it's not true. And the developer is also human and also very nice community. Um I and I love the vibe that we have, you know, when you go to a congress, you want to new, um, you want to learn new things, you want to hear the uh with the industry experts um working on very different topics and stuff. And um I always felt um full of energy when I come back from that kind of congress. And that's why I'm just so excited to go to one of the biggest ones.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Well, thanks very much, Vicky. This was it, this was really good. Let's see what let's see what goes. I mean, we also need moderators every year. So if you don't uh if you're not gicked as a speaker, that might be something you want to do. Yeah, it's it's a fun experience to do, and it's also very uh for somebody like me who has to run the thing, it's also very taxing, but it's also very good to to see so many different people from so different, many different backgrounds come to these kind of uh things together. And um, yeah, I mean, um I hopefully we'll see what what comes out of it, and uh we might pick you, but not can't promise anything yet, but uh I will I don't drink coke, but I got long hair and I listen to punk rock. So, but that's a different story. Any last words for you? Like, what's what is one thing you say? Like, okay, if you want to think about becoming a good feedback giver, what is one thing you want people to do more?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Repetition, practice, really practice. Um, hippocampus is I say is your data storage in your head. So the more you practice, um, to not be defensive when you get a critical feedback, or try to be a more um or less direct and uh more open for the solution of the others, um, the more you will be. And reputation uh builds resilience. So the more you're doing, the more um data you're storing in your hippocampus. And one day it would just become a gut feeling, you know, you just know intuitive how to give better feedback and um how to um feel better when you get um critical feedback. So one day you will know how to separate your emotions from the feedback.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Wonderful. As they say, it's not you, it's it's the product, it's not you. Separating yourself from your work is super important. And when you the more effort you put into it, the more work it was, the harder it is to do. But it's actually something like if you get critical feedback, it's never about you, it's most about the product that you'd think about. So concentrate on fixing the product, not like trying to fix you because you're not broken.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Thanks very much, Vicky. This was wonderful. This was Vicky Perker. Uh, where can where can we find you? Where can we read more about this topic?

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Maybe just choose me, you know, so I can give this a talk at the Congress. But um, there are still so many um great persons. One of my biggest inspiration is Gio Natoli. He is a UX practitioner and has been fighting for uh communication, a better communication between designer, developers, and business. And he has um a lot of um podcast and uh YouTube, and I really um learned a lot from him.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Cool. And where can we find you?

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yeah, this is wikipediaca.com, and you can also find me on LinkedIn. Yeah. And of course, if you have any kind of questions, feel free to uh reach out to me. I'm happy to answer the questions. Um, yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Cool, and if you ever get a chance to go to Salzburg, do because it's an absolutely beautiful place to go to.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Yes, both in winter and in summer.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Excellent. Thanks very much, Vicky. This was wonderful. This was Coffee with Developers with Vicky Perker about her topic how to give better feedback as developers. We got a bit off topic, but I think we covered a lot of interesting things here. Thanks very much. Bye bye.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Thank you. Have a wonderful day. Bye bye.