#125-When You Lose the Role That Defined You with Dawn Marraccino

There’s a unique kind of grief that comes when you lose the role that once defined you.

In this honest and deeply meaningful conversation, Dawn Marruccino shares her journey of serving over two decades behind the scenes in ministry leadership—and what happened when that role began to shift. What once felt like purpose and belonging slowly turned into burnout, invisibility, and a deep sense of rejection.

But what if what feels like rejection… is actually release?

Dawn vulnerably opens up about the unraveling of her identity, the spiritual tension that followed, and how she encountered God as El Roi—the God who sees. Through that season, she didn’t just rebuild her career—she rebuilt her identity, her voice, and her life.

If you’ve ever felt unseen, overlooked, or unsure of who you are in a season of transition, this episode will meet you right where you are.

About Dawn
Dawn Marruccino is an ICF-certified coach, speaker, and retreat host who helps high-capacity women stop performing and start living aligned. After more than 20 years serving behind the scenes in church and nonprofit leadership, she now equips women to rebuild their identity, reconnect with their voice, and step into a more honest and aligned life.

Connect with Dawn
Website: https://www.coachdawnnoel.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dawn_marraccino/
Mention this episode and get 20% off any of Dawn's coaching services. 

Loved This Episode?
If this conversation encouraged you, share it with a friend, leave a review, and make sure you’re subscribed so you never miss an episode.

Connect with Leslie:

Follow on IG: @yourjoyfulorderstyle

Website: https://shopjoyfulorder.com/

Email: lmartinez@yourjoyfulorder.com
to schedule- Speaking Events, Interviews or Life Coaching Sessions

Shop my SOAP Journal & Digital Products:
https://shopjoyfulorder.com/

Watch this Episode on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsXoAYIM2mfclNtYiaOzIUw

Shop my Gratitude, Goals & Prayer Journal on Amazon:
https://a.co/d/09Djvaw

Transcript

When A Role Feels Like Rejection

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Your Joyful Order podcast. Today's conversation is for the woman who has ever found herself asking, Who am I if I am no longer who I've always acted? Maybe you spent years, decades even serving, leading, showing up faithfully behind the scenes, being the dependable one, the strong one, the one that everyone counts on. And then something shifts. The role changes, the door closes, and suddenly it doesn't feel like a change. It feels like a rejection. Like you've been pushed outside of the very life that you have built. My guest today, Don Marchino, knows this filming way too deeply. For over 20 years, she served behind the scenes in large churches and nonprofit leadership spaces, supporting executive leaders, carrying strategy, communication, growth, and even crisis. She was the steady one, the capable one, the one who could hold a lot until she couldn't. Burnout has a way of telling the truth. What followed wasn't just a career shift, it was a rebuilding of her identity, her faith, and her voice. Today, Dawn is an ICF credited coach and speaker who helps women stop performing and start living aligned. She works with high capacity women who are done pretending they're fine and ready to step into something deeper and more honest. And one of the most powerful things that she teaches is this you don't have to perform your way into peace. You don't have to hustle to prove your worth. You're not behind, you're becoming. Let's dive in. Hey everyone, I'm Leslie Martinez, and you're listening to your Joyful Order Podcast. Each week I will bring you joyful stories that will motivate and inspire you, and at the same time, bring order to your everyday life. Let's just say the show will be a mixture of preaching and teaching with a kick of motivation from your girl here. Welcome to your Joyful Order Podcast. Dawn, welcome to the podcast. I am so honored to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Hey Leslie, it's a delight to be here. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for just having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah. So now, for the audience, Dawn and I just talked for a good 40 minutes before we even hit record. Oh my gosh. Is it really? Yes. So we we we just I'm like, hold on, Don. You're saying so many good things here. But before we dive in, um, I just want to ask you a fun question first. I'm gonna we end with this question, but I want to know what is bringing you joy in this season right now, Dawn.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Oh man, so sounds crazy. And if you don't have a pet, I'm sorry. But I have a 14-pound golden doodle named Whitney, and we go on so many walks. So, and so walking my sweet little golden doodle is bringing me a ton of joy. Something simple, something beautiful. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

I love that. I have a four-year-old beagle that is like the princess at home. So see, Whitney's three and a half, so right there. I I feel you, I feel you. And there's something about girl dogs, like yes, she's my little princess.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yes, and I think they just get you, right? Like she does get me, and we'll talk about a lot of this more, but got her in a season where um I know theologically people say dogs don't go to heaven. I understand that theology. Let's just say that I totally believe my dog will be in heaven. And I like people without in it. I know you're gonna get like some theologian who's gonna go, that's not let me support that. So she's just my little soul dog. So she brings so much joy. So yes.

Becoming Less Reactive And More Rested

SPEAKER_01 3:57

I love that. I I'm right there with you, girl. Now, for those of uh the listeners that are just meeting you for the first time, now I share your background and thank you what you do, but I want to know right now. I want you to share with the audience not just what you do, but who you are in this season or who you feel God is like, who you're becoming in this season.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah, that's a great question, Leslie. And I'm very open-handed in this season. So I show up really palms up and just in like, Lord, what now? And for someone who is a self-proclaimed recovering control freak, perfectionist who now lives by something called get mo, good enough to move on. This Enneagram one, I mean, that's a huge step. So that's who I am becoming someone who doesn't respond to your text immediately. Sorry if any of my friends are listening. You know where I'm at. I'm becoming someone whose email might be left for a couple of days. And that is a growth thing. I realize some people are on the other side of that, that they're like, no, I need to be better. For me, it's really about abiding and rest and being weary. And yet I still love excellence. So don't get me wrong. I still love excellence, I still take my work very seriously. I just try not to take myself as seriously.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

I love that. And that's such a good season to be, John. I've I've been, I'm I'm getting in that season. I I literally have, and they're kind of right now too, where I don't respond quickly. I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna enjoy this moment that I'm at right now. Um, and it's I being a former perfectionist here with with you, uh, it definitely is a transition, but it's a good one.

unknown 5:49

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

It's a great one. It's refining though. So let's be clear that pruning is not comfortable. I mean, if you think about what pruning actually is, and that in order for a vine to produce fruit, so in order for you and I as followers of Christ to produce fruit, we have to be pruned. So it's been a pruning season as well, and a shedding of identity and a shedding of what I thought my identity was. And if you would have asked me, because I was in vocational ministry, which simply means that I worked at a church, um, for those of you know, it's such a like, what is that? Um, at a mega mega church, I think they're actually even called now. Three beautiful expressions of the bride of Christ that I had the privilege to be on staff at at different seasons. And I would have answered you appropriately. I would have said that my identity is in Jesus. My identity rests only in, so I know the answers. Yeah, um, they become rote, but the internal work and the quietness that it required for me and the submission and the pruning.

Behind The Scenes Ministry Leadership

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Yeah, so good. Now, as I was sharing, for those of you listening right now, Don and I, we had a lot to talk about before because we have so much in common in that we our identity was in our role um at church uh for so many years. So, Don, just for the listeners, kind of explain what your role looked like during those 20 plus years that you were in the ministry and leadership.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Sure. So I stumbled into ministry like a lot of people might. I did not grow up in a home where you would have thought, like, I wasn't church going, I wasn't, um I fell head over heels in love with Jesus. Conversion for me looked different than surrender. So that's not everyone's story. Sometimes you say yes to Jesus, and automatically your life is surrendered. Mine was more of a journey, and I did find myself in my late 20s completely surrendered. Several years later, I received an uh invitation to come on staff at a beautiful expression of the church. And it was part-time temporary, and that turned into a beautiful season that spanned three different churches in two different states in three different cities. And my identity got really wrapped up in that. So, really, really wrapped up in that. I served in an administrative role, so I was an executive assistant to senior leaders, and that title executive assistant is interesting. And so I think a lot of people, and potentially even your listeners, will think, oh, that's cute. You were a church secretary. No, no, my guy. No, I'm sorry. Um, you know, there was$50 million budgets, there were capital campaigns that I was involved in key stakeholders. There were um really actually I oversaw people as well in my role. Uh Devil War Prada, the assistant gets the assistant, but not like the Devil Wars Prada, but I love that movie. Um, I've been blessed to work for amazing people. I should throw that out there because that always people are like, oh, is it Miranda Priestley? No, no, no. I worked for amazing people and still have a relationship with all of them to this day. So it was a big role, um, very close to what I refer to as the epicenter um in these organizations, in these faith-based organizations that are doing amazing work in the kingdom, in the community. And I love the church. So I have to say that I love the church capital C and I love the church little C.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Yes. Same, same here. And I think people do not realize, like when I worked for the church, they thought, you know, oh, you're a children's director, children's pastor. Oh, you gotta teach Jesus to the kids all the time. No, I I manage 150 volunteers to make sure they show up on Sunday. I have to do background checks, I have to do like there is so much behind the scenes that people just don't understand. And people thought that I only worked on Sunday. Like, oh, that's hysterical to me.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

I think people thought that I sat around with my Bible maybe and prayed all day and just did that. Uh I I honestly, so it's because and or they got really weird around me. I'll be real honest. So if someone didn't go to church, all of a sudden everything shifted. Like they thought, oh, are you Mother Teresa? And I'm like, I'm the same person that you've been hanging out with for two weeks. Yes. And now just because now we start to talk about what we do for then now they think they like can't cuss in front of yours, right? Yes. I've like, guys, I I literally we were on vacation once, Leslie, and we had been hanging out. We were in the British Virgin Island. We live on a sailboat, that's kind of a fun fact. And we were sailing in the BVI, and we had been hanging out with a couple, and then suddenly she asked what I did. And I I would sometimes say, Oh, I'm I'm in um nonprofit. Like I would just say things to not put up barriers at times, but as we got to know each other more, and all of a sudden, she liked her whole continence changed, and she was like, I go to church too. I'm like, girl, you're good. Yeah. So I think to your point though, that it is um, I managed volunteer teams, I managed our front um office. So I oversaw the receptionists, I did a lot of work that was not just, and even though like someone's like, Oh, you got coffee and lunches, I'm like, so the role is misunderstood, and then in so it's no different than a um quote unquote secular or corporate world where based on budget, based on size, based on scope of employees, I think at the time the last church I was on staff at had well over 300 employees. So yeah.

When Good Work Becomes Identity

SPEAKER_01 11:50

I yeah, mega mega church there. Yeah. So, so Don, at what point did that role that you were in as an executive um assistant stop being something that you did and started becoming who you were?

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Yeah, it's a great question, Leslie. Thank you. I'm gonna have a sad answer to that a little bit. I don't know that it ever was something that I just did. So, particularly when you're in ministry, but I think even for any woman in corporate, any person, how much of what we do at work becomes our identity. And so I don't know, as I ponder that question, that I had so sometimes, and especially in a more, I'm gonna use the word, and I want listeners to understand when I say more of a service-oriented, so a support role. So I'm in a support role, it was just really mushed to me. And in ministry, it's even because you bring God in every day that the identity was so, I was so firmly rooted in this is my calling. So being able to extrapolate out that actually, in the truest sense, I am truly called to be a daughter of the King of Kings, period. Actually, then it's like period. Now there's things that come with that that we produce like we're talking about producing fruit, but that's the work of the Holy Spirit in our life. It is not by my own flesh, so that anything good happens. So, you know, I don't know. I I don't know that there was ever a clear time. So it was more about being becoming more mature in him and being able to see, oh, this is your identity. Yeah, you cannot separate these two. So I loved the Atta girls. I loved, so I shared a little bit. I didn't come from a church-going family. Um, there was some strong dysfunction in my family of origin. So um the redemption that came through just Jesus. And when you've seen the pit, Jesus is even to me so much sweeter. When you know what I have redeemed, tattooed on my arm so that I remember whose I am. So it's but it was just a real mush together for me. So it was really through the maturity of spending more time with him and growth that I started to realize my identity. So it was in the other direction. So it was my identity from day one. I felt like, oh, I'm Dawn and I'm on staff at this beautiful church and everyone loves me, and my family looks good. And you see, so it was a lot about um external. Now, did I love Jesus? Yes. Did he use me? Yes. Was there beauty that came out of all of that? Yes. So don't misunderstand if that makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Now, why do you think because I I was in the same similar shoes with you, and we had talked about this earlier. I'm a little further out than than than you are. And it took, I I think there are times that I sit with God and as I journal and reflect and grow closer to him, that there are things that he reveals to me during the time in ministry that it it like it starts to click, right? Um, and some of these are not always like uh like sometimes they're red flags that I realize now after as God's revealing things to me in the Word, that I I reflect back and I'm like, those were red flags and I totally miss them, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yes. And I'm just laughing, yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah, because you you know what I'm talking about, right? And you see, like when you're in it, you don't see those red flags because you think, well, I'm doing God's work, that this is all God's work. All these people are wholly imperfect, you know? So why do you think that it's so easy for uh, and I'm gonna say, especially in ministry, and I know there's a lot of people that aren't necessarily in ministry right now, uh, that are listening, but this can be applicable to anything that you do, you know, any corporation, any if you're a business owner or something, we get so caught in our identity of being, you know, whatever title it is that you want to give yourself. But why do you think it's so easy though, particularly in ministry, to tie our identity to what we do?

Hustle Culture Meets Mary And Martha

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Well, because it's good. So what I'm doing is so good. And every day, in the same way though, anyone in corporate or anything is uh doing good work. So whatever you're doing, do it as unto the Lord, like is the word says that, so we do that, and I think it's the well, I mean, there's over-spiritization that comes along. So our our calling is to be a son or a daughter of God, of Jesus. That's our calling, but this calling gets thrown around a lot. Um, in at one point, I had someone say when I was leaving a position, but I thought you were called. And I'm like, whoa, to me that now looking back to me, that's a red flag. Yeah, yeah. So, and I'm not here to challenge anyone's. I'm I have a degree in religion, I'm not a theologian, I'm a woman that spent a lot of time in the scripture that loves Jesus. So that's my qualification. I just want to be clear that I'm not here to say to anyone what you're calling is or isn't, but what the Lord has revealed to me is that it is to be his daughter and that what the fruit that comes out of that is secondary after that, meaning not the work that I do is then good. And because when I'm running from myself, it's easy to hide behind good work. So instead of doing the hard soul work that I needed to do, and I've been to therapy, I still believe in therapy, I have always had my own, not always, but I have my own coach. I believe in, you know, iron sharpens iron, Bible studies, women accountability. Like I'm all about all of that. But at the end of the day, it's simply between me and God. So not even my husband, not my kids, but that's a rabbit trail to your and to answer your question of because I was doing good things and I needed to do the soul work and just rest. There's nothing, nothing that I can do any more or any less to have God love me. And that means nothing. Yeah. But it just gets messy, Leslie. I don't know that that answers your question fully. I just think it's very easy when you're doing God's work and doing good things to have it become your identity. And when you have over spiritualization, which I will say the Western church or the you're called to do this, um, I thought this, and we are, and scripture is very clear. We are to run our race, we are to have endurance, but scripture also says go. Yeah. So it says go many different times. So managing the tension between staying and leaving and calling is deeply personal. So I'm not here to challenge anyone except to examine what's going on with them.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Yeah, that's so good. And you know, so I I was on staff at a church during the time of like hustle culture.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Um, where that was a big thing. So for me, Oh, you mean that's not a thing anymore? Just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

I know it's not. I know it's not.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

We we're we're learning and evolving a little bit to realize that like burnout is you know, it is not um uh godly, really. And during that time though, the whole hustle culture, it was like, oh no, we work six days a week. Um, you get one day off, and we like you need to work until you like the whole you you gotta uh what is that phrase? Um burning the midnight oil kind of thing. Like you you just go, go, go until you break kind of thing. And that was unfortunately kind of the culture um in I feel like in the church, and and actually uh let me let me let me rephrase that. That was the culture in the department that I worked in. I'm gonna clarify the department that I worked in. It was constantly go go go go go. And the way that God kind of worked in and through me is um I was preparing the story of Mary and Martha to teach our kids, right? Oh yes. I heard this story a bunch of times. I had taught it quite a few times, but this one time when God was starting to shift my heart and like slowly move me out, that's where that whole story came up. And he told me, Leslie, you have been in Martha mode the last 12 years. When are you ever gonna be married? And for me, I'm like, I'm not married, she just sits and does does nothing. Like, no, I am Martha. For me, I was proud to wear that crown of Martha. Like, yeah, Martha gets crap done. That was my whole mentality, right? Martha goes, goes, goes. Like she's serving you, God. She wants everything perfect for you. Yes. And it was just that whole shift of heart that God was like, but I need you to be merry. You've never been merry with me. And then so I that's where my heart like started to transition, you know, and I started to realize that this whole um hustle culture and burnout mode, that's not what God called us to do. Even doing his work, like, you know, it is written in his laws that we must obey the Sabbath. I never do a Sabbath, even my day off, like my one day off. I had one day off a week. I had I was a mom, I was a young mom. That's when I had to go grocery shopping, I had to take care of the Kids, I had a Kramon appointments, you know, dentist appointments, doctor's appointments, checkups, eye doctor. Like I never rested. I never rested. And that was so hard for me to learn to do. And as someone, as you were doers, right? We just get stuff done. People come to me. I love to get really.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

I actually liked work. So that's also a problem. I never think. And I enjoyed it, I was really good at my job. And it was the perfect mix of details and people, like I said, managing teams, but I also got to do expense reports, which probably people are like, what? I'm like, it was soothing. So I liked my job.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

I liked work.

Burnout And The Pandemic Perfect Storm

SPEAKER_01 22:40

So when you like it too, you you want to do it all the time. It's hard for you to just sit. Yes. But I did like I started to burn out. So for you, uh did burn out. Not laughing at you. Like, yeah, yeah. So okay, so you're laughing because it happened, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Oh, I burnt out. Like I ended up in the floor in a puddle. I mean physically on the floor. I burnt when did it show up for you then? Uh it took about um, it took me two years to transition off of the from the time I heard the Lord say to me, You're done. Like I need you to be done. And there was a variety of different ways. But uh, you all remember the pandemic, 2020 hit, and what the world looked like. And most people were at home baking banana bread or cleaning, you know, Marie condoing their house, whatever it's called, and you know, cleaning closets. And I was one of five people that continually still went into the office. And we had a little pod, so it was like a safety pod, and we followed appropriate protocol. I want to be clear when I say those things, and I was considered an essential worker. So I had the um, you know, a frontline type worker, and I was the front line for receiving all of the visceral emails and phone calls of open, don't open. There was a lot of um cultural political tension, which were, you know, isn't there always? But it was heightened. Um, I think people had a lot more time on their hands as well. So there were a lot of heightened things. I'm on the front line of that. I am of the age that I was in full-blown menopause and didn't know it. So there was a lot of hormonal things going on for me. So it was what I would refer to as a perfect storm. And I also think I just shared all of those, a lot of the fun things I did in my role. I had outgrown my actual job. So the actual job itself. And so I kept like I sat on the teaching team. I don't mean that I taught on the weekends. So let me be clear with listeners and with you, Leslie. But once a week I sat in a meeting and went over the manuscript of what was being taught on that coming upcoming weekends in order to edit, in order to weigh in, because I do love the scripture and I, you know, the they saw value in having me a part of that meeting. So that's not a normal EA type thing. So I also think so. I kept piling more and more on because it was giving me joy, but my other job didn't go away. And so there was just, I call it the perfect storm of outgrowing my role, taking too much on. I did not operate with agency. So I did not use my voice for a variety of reasons in my own brokenness, in allowing what I would actually say the enemy to keep me quiet and not be vocal to say, hey, enough. There, I I did. I don't want to give the impression that I never said anything, but I don't think I was clear. And I love the saying that clarity is kindness. So me being unclear was unkind to myself as well as the people that I worked with, because that's not fair. So I really, and then I kept hearing from the Lord, it's time. And I'm like, I don't think so. Like, I love the people I work with, I love the work that I do overall, even though there were aspects that I felt like I had outgrown. And the person that I was working the most closely with at that time was all about use your gifts. I mean, genuinely, of you want to like, I ran donor events start to finish. I helped raise, you know, capital campaign, like because that was where I was really good. And it I hit a wall, and then my health started to go. So it took all of that and me just hitting a wall. I I just I honestly I we all come, you know, there is a dark night of the soul, and we will all, all of your listeners, at some point or another, if they are listening to the spirit, you will come to the end of yourself. You will, yeah. I don't know a person that gets to journey through this life unscathed where, and maybe your rock bottom will be higher than mine, maybe your rock bottom will be lower than mine, but my rock bottom looked like panic attacks that I had never had in my whole life. Looked like um not, I started to not like myself. So, and the incongruency between the way I looked on the outside and with what was going on in my soul, the duplicity, and that sounds like some great big sin story or something. It wasn't, there isn't one. It is the rotting away of my soul because I am not being obedient when the Lord said leave and what that looks like. There's a cost of staying, of going, there's a cost, yeah. So, you know, you probably heard that saying, choose your heart. What yeah, so choose your heart. It's all hard, guys. The world's I don't know. Have you looked around? It's crazy. Like we we know this.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

That's so good. And I I'm just like shaking my head, yes, yes, because so much of that is what I live through myself, and it was a very challenging and it breaks my heart.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Like I say this in a pretty clinical way now, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

So understand because when when you're there, it's it's not it's not pretty. We're it's it's ugly and it's challenging, and you don't know if you're gonna like make make it.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Like what I didn't know that I was gonna make it. I I'll share that I shared with Leslie, I shared with you off um when we were chatting, like there were dark days for me. So also for any listener that is in that dark moment right now, I just encourage you, there is light on the other side, and keep stay here. It's just what I would say. Stay here. And you know, it's been over, I don't even know how long it's been. See, that's what's the beauty now. I mean, before I used to be able to tell you everything, snap, snap, snap. I left my last role in August of 2022, so it's been a minute, but it wasn't instantaneous either. So you don't leave a role. There was a lot that the Lord still needed to do.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

And burnout, what I want to say, Wesley, is taking a lesser role doesn't solve burnout. So, meaning taking an easy job, I didn't need an easier job. I actually loved I I've said it 17 times. Yeah. We're like beating the bloody horse. That's not because I tried that too. So I was like, Oh, I'll just take an easier job now. Like that's that didn't work. It actually made it worse because I was bored out of my mind. So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

See, my easier job was uh to go into the classroom and teach.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

And I absolutely loved it. That's uh what I was actually going to school for. I wanted to be a teacher. And my uh like a few months before I graduated and was like looking into the credential program for teaching, that's when the job came for me to go as director. Um, so I kind of landed there and didn't go get my teaching credential, but God kind of full circle. Uh, he had me kind of go back into teaching and go into the classroom. And I loved it because it was at a time I went, my oldest son was in third grade. I literally started when my youngest son started kindergarten. That was my first day of teaching.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

What day did you teach then?

Unseen Narratives And Facts Versus Feelings

SPEAKER_01 30:24

I taught, um, I actually started this is it, the lesser role. I went from a children's director, and I think I had shared with you earlier, I quit in August. I quit a week before the teachers were having their in service um for school. So as I transitioned, like I told them, look, if there is anything at the school, like an aid, a part-time position, I'll take it. So the first year I was just a TA. Um, and I say just, I don't mean I know what you meant. You know what I mean? Like, but I think it's important, Claire. I went for I went so being a children's director to going as a part-time TA. So for the first year, I was a TA, and then the next year I went full-time and I was working with preschool through uh eighth grade as the technology slash librarian. I was technology teacher, librarian. I did yearbook, um, I even did art. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, but I had all the school holidays off with my kids. I had summers off. I got to, I did early morning. So we had um like morning extended care and after school care. So I would go in at 6 a.m. and I'd leave right at two o'clock with my kids. Doctor come home, enjoy my kids, and do like just being present with them. Now, mind you, I did have the days where I'd be worn, worn out and I'd come and I'm like, don't look at me and talk to me for like the next hour. But I had spent the whole day with them though, also. So it's not like I didn't see them. I saw them on the playground. That's awesome. They would come to me if it was their week to go to library or have to. So I would just go home and I think we all kind of needed to unwind from each other anyway. So they went their separate route. Um, but I was able to be a present mom during the most crucial time with my kids. And I I just look back of the timing of everything that happened. But I want to ask you this, Don. So we talked a lot about, you know, just how God um shifted our roles and stuff and our identity and burnout and all that stuff. But for you, what beliefs about God or yourself started to unravel during this time when you started to kind of break away from that identity of executive role to being the the daughter of a most high king? Like when or how did that start to unravel for you?

SPEAKER_00 32:48

So I started to feel, and this is where the mental part comes in, and I started to feel really unseen, and I started to feel really unvalued at work, and that was a lie from the enemy, and I chose to believe it. There was not the body of my work and the way that people treated me was very seen, very loving, very known. If I started to hold people to a standard, in like you know how you mentioned earlier looking back, you see different things, like when you saw different red flags you mentioned. When I look back, one of the things I see is how I did not believe the best about everyone. And so I chose, even though I knew these people well, I started to think, really, I would, I'm gonna use the word like not sane thoughts. So I'm not saying, like, oh, like people are gonna be like, was she a psycho killer? No, I don't know. I just meant like I would, I'll give you a quick example of being unseen. We celebrated as a senior leadership team birthdays on the Tuesday before that person's birthday, always. So we had a um a senior leadership meeting, and I put on a little more makeup that day, knowing my birthday was the um on Thursday. So this is a Tuesday. I go in, nothing, nothing, nothing is done. Yeah, and now I am the person that always made sure that all of the birthday stuff was done. But my reaction to that was what I would classify as a 10, meaning, like on a scale of one to 10, it was a 10. It crushed me. And I start to believe, you know, we write narratives and stories. And I believe, and science has proven that the more we tell ourselves a story, the more it's wired into our brain, into our neural pathways. And so I'm telling myself this narrative that no one sees me, no one cares about me, no one appreciates me. And that narrative of being unseen just grew and grew. And that just one story. Now I did a big girl thing and I used my voice, and I went the next day, like I couldn't even talk in that meeting. Like the I was just so and I realize it sounds so dumb. Like, even telling you the story seems so silly, but understand that this became a 10. And I was like, I'm unseen, I'm uncared for, no one I talked to the person in leadership over that situation, and they were like, We're planning everything for Tuesday. And I'm like, Well, we always celebrate it the Tuesday before. Well, we were gonna do it this day, and I promise you something was planned. Now, I believe the best about them, I believe that, but it I also think now I don't think God creates those situations, but he sure does allow them. Because this is also towards the end of when I'm like, I have been told by the Lord a few times, your season is done. Like you served well and faithfully. Well done, my good and faithful servant. But I have more different. So more isn't even the right word, just like you just said, just. I have something different for you because it's not more. You know, if you're familiar at all with Brother Lawrence and the pot story where he's washing pots and he was the best pot washer, you'll have to look the story up, listeners. But that was he gave glory to God through washing the pot. So I don't ever want someone to feel like regardless of what they're doing, if that makes sense, that it's not just, but he was like, There's you have something different for you. And there is a refining of my soul, but I felt very unseen, uncared for. And there were multiple, that's one small example. But I could also, like looking back, I actually made a list. So, any of your listeners, something to do. If you're feeling um unseen, uncared for, I would just challenge you on facts versus feelings, and what are the facts here versus your feelings? And I went through and I made a list of all of the good things that these people had done for me. Facts, not feelings, of what had actually transpired in order to recalibrate. But that was the work I was doing after I left, because there should be no root of bitterness in our heart, and I don't have any at all. I can't say that more genuinely, but I felt unseen, I felt like I was overlooked, I didn't feel acknowledged. I wrote a story, man. I don't know about you, but I had a story and a narrative, and that God also didn't care about me, that God didn't see me, because if God saw me, then why does he allow? And I know that other people have to think this. So if God cares about me, why does he allow this? Because sometimes there are bad things that happen in this fallen and broken world. And sometimes you just have to open. I'm fortunate where I was on staff all of the churches. This is not the story. Can't be more clear about that. Don't edit that out. My podcast queen, but I can't be more clear. But there are churches you can open the newspaper um probably any given week and see where senior leadership or leadership has done something that I will actually say is horrific. Like we have things that are, but why does God allow that? Why does so I just felt unseen, uncared for? I remember crying out to God, you don't care about me. You are a good, good father to everyone else. Wow. Everyone else. Do I believe you're good? I do, I do, but are you good to me, to Dawn? Why do you why have you allowed this? And knowing also, like I'm in a uh a support role. So a lot of my role was also service-oriented. So there were days where what I did was bring lunch, guys, and where I'm schlepping like just events. And if you've ever been in those roles, like you are just, and I was the workhorse, I was the they were gonna put get stuff done, but not with the stuff word on my business card. It was a joke.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

So for anyone who's like, get done. Yes, they they cursed out of church occasionally.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Never the Lord's name in vain. We move on, and I felt unseen, unloved. Um, and it's embarrassing to me to even say that to you because it's so far from the truth, so far from the truth.

El Roi And Putting Feet In Water

SPEAKER_01 39:21

You and I have talked about going before, like just a lot of the red flags and stuff like that that that we look at now, and some of the things of how we I I had shared with you how you said the the certificate that they were gonna put that you were like the workhorse that you know gets ish done. And I was like, Oh, I got the little Miss Perfect award, and I like oh yes, like wore that like a badge of beauty kind of thing. But we look at you know, those things my crown on tight, yeah, right, right. Oh, I'll take that. Yes, you you know that everything's gonna be perfect with me. Um you were just saying like how you felt, you know, so unseen by God, and you're like, God, it I know that you're good. I see every you see everybody else, except you don't see me. And that's where the whole like El Roy comes in of the C's, right? So, what does that mean to you now?

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Oh, what that means to be now. El Roy is in English, El Roy is Roy, Roy is in the Hebrew. Um it's the only time that that is the name of God in scripture, and so that Hagar, and I encourage your listeners to go into Genesis and to look at who Hagar is, and that she would be desolate, a slave, pregnant, and that she was seen and known by God, and that he saved her. And God used that name very honestly, and that identity to be like, I see you, and what he had asked of me was you know, the story of Moses where the Red Sea parts, you know, even if you don't read the Bible, most people would like when they were a little kid probably saw Ten Commandments on. Um there's the story after Moses is of Joshua and Joshua's army, long story longer, Joshua's army had to put, and again, I'm gonna encourage you to go read this. Go, they had to put their feet into the Jordan before God parted the Jordan and had them walk through. Now, you might think babbling brook, you might like think little river. No, I'm talking about a raging sea that was at harvest time, and that they're carrying this Ark of the Covenant, which Indiana Jones, right? Like this wild thing that is really the mercy seat of God. And that they so what he has said to me and what El Roy means to me now, the God who sees, is he said, I just needed you to put your feet in the water, my daughter, so that I could part the sea. I was telling you, you see, God for me in my journey, and I've seen this in those that I have the privilege to walk alongside with Moses, he parted it. They just stood there. Then it was like, I need you to trust me more. So as he is sanctifying, like salvation is one thing, sanctification is a lifelong process. And so as he was sanctifying me, he was simply saying, I told you to put your feet in the water. You didn't listen to me. My putting the feet in the water was leaving and resting. So it wasn't just leaving, because then it was like, Oh, I got a lot of beautiful job opportunities. And but it was clear it was rest. And I didn't listen. I want to be clear, I didn't listen. I took an easier job and then I burnt out completely. So, like it was this progression. I burnt out completely, I blew up. So, all of my pride and my job, and I'm so perfect. I like had to quit my job after four months. Do you know how humiliating that is? I was in my last role for over eight years. So God sees, He has just been clear with me to that he sees me, but I don't have to do anything. Yeah. That literally that sanctification and just the rest is all that's so good. That's so good.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

It that reminds me, my one of my favorite quotes is from Martin Luther King that says, Um, faith is taking the net the first step without seeing the entire staircase. And it's always stairs. Um, because kind of the same thing. Like, God's always like, Look, I just need you to put your foot in the river. I start to see. Take the first step, then I will, I will guide you along the way.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

I don't think he fully shows, at least that's not been my experience any longer. Same here. When I was first walking with him, I was like, Oh, the Holy Spirit was generous because doors might fly open, you know, and then it was like, oh, walk through that door. And then the longer that I've been with him, the more of the sanctification process.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Yeah, yeah, that's so good. Now, um, as we begin to kind of wrap up here, Don, I know you and I can talk forever. What a privilege. I know. I'm sorry. Like uh no, no, no. I hope we got through some of your questions. No, this is all good. Um, but I I want to really speak to the listener right now and someone that maybe is tied, like they have their identity wrapped in a role, um, maybe a business. You know, I know there's a lot of women that listen that they're still in the thick of that hustle culture of just getting stuff done and the perfectionist and all of that. So, what patterns do you see in women now who feel stuck or unseen?

Fear Patterns And Good Enough To Move On

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Fear. So I would really encourage, and I mean really, really get right before yourself and before the Lord. And if you don't follow Jesus, if you're listening to this, um, you know, you still get right with what is your identity caught up with if you do nothing? So, and what would happen if you did nothing or if you made that change? I was petrified to leave my job. So I'm I'll be I'm very vocal about this. I'm 58. I was afraid of so many things. One of the lies that was whispered in my ear was you're gonna have to color your gray hair because no one's gonna hire you. Ageism is real. Like, I'm like, we live in a patriarchal society. Sorry. Like, I mean, we do. Ageism is real, women still make less. Like, I mean, I could we could do a whole show about that, trust me. So don't get me wrong, guys. Like, I am a huge advocate for women, women in the workplace. But who am I? And are you so afraid that you won't get a job? Are you so what are you afraid of? Because I even see women half my age that I work with and mentor or coach that I hear making a lot of excuses that they can't leave their job and they've been miserable for years. And I'm like, life is so short. Life is so short. So I just encourage you like today is it, and choose your hard. So I just want people who are listening really get right before yourself. And what is it you're afraid of? And what lie are you listening to? And like I said, it doesn't always mean leaving, it doesn't, but can you now I would not have been able to modify my life in a way that I would have been successful in my role in the way that I am now choosing to operate my life. So, meaning we chatted a little bit about I don't always answer every text right away. I don't always, and I'm maybe I'll get better at it. Maybe if it is a part of my still, I'm still being refined and sanctified. Maybe I'll be like, oh no, now it's time to step up your game. But for me, I mentioned a little of the get mo. I didn't make it up. It's good enough to move on. So it's good enough to move on, ladies. Like, you know, and you're good enough to move on. So, what is just the lie you're listening to? And where is it from? Because I can guarantee you, mine was not from who I follow. It was not from Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Yeah. Oh, that's so good, Don. Thank you, thank you, thank you. This conversation, I we may need to do part two of this. We need to and uh because there's so many things that we can talk about, but um I can't I I was gonna ask you uh the question of like what to tell the ladies, but you just said it right there. Okay, yeah, no, and I'm like, she's answering every my last question. You just answered it right there. But um, what would you say? That actually let's end with this question. Okay. Um, are you okay with going a little over right now? So great right now.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

I'm having the best time with you. Okay, you can just edit away.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Yeah, yes, because we we can sit and I'm I'm gonna keep all this in there. I just want to make sure because we're already pushing um our time slot that we have. Not even looking at it because you and I were chatting for 40 minutes before we even hit record, which I loved. But what would you like if you go back, because you mentioned you're 58 years old. I am much wiser. Um I don't know about that lately. 10 years, uh 10 years ahead of me. And I always like to ask women more wiser than I that have paved the trail, that have done it all before, that have um, you know, the the lessons, okay. So if you could sit across the version of you at your lowest moment.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Oh, now you'll make me cry. You see, are you with Barbara Walters? Do you remember who was like, she made everyone cry? You're saving her for the last one. Not at all, not at all.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Actually, you answered the question that I was gonna ask you of closing. Yeah, but I'm seeing this, and I'm like, you know what? There's a little nudge that I'm like, I have to ask her this. So that version of you in your lowest moment, what would you say to her now? Because there's a woman who is at their lowest moment right now listening, and they don't have an answer. And we can tell them, you know what, you'll get through it. God is good, God is working all things.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

I don't like platitudes. I I don't, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Exactly. But like, what would you say to her right now in you in your lowest moment?

What To Say At Rock Bottom

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Don't be embarrassed to get help. You don't have to, you see. I shared a little bit, Leslie, about how I would tell you I had a curated life. So, you know, we're all on social media now, and we know that Instagram's not real, that it's a curated version. Some of us try and be more authentic than others. It's still curated. Um, because also, like, I don't think everything needs to be on social media, to be clear. And so when I say get help, I don't necessarily mean, you know, throw out your reel of you crying on the floor, Dawn. Um, I wouldn't tell Dawn to do that, but I would say don't be embarrassed to get help and that you are, and that could be therapy, that could be coaching, that could be medication, that could be rest. Um, I'll be authentic. I took money out. I lived off of like I because that's like people are like, oh, great, you can quit your job. No, guys, I I'm not. I took money out of my retirement in order to quit my job. So I'll be authentic and share that. So I recognize everyone's life looks different, but I think we have more choices than we think we do, and that we're bound by the fear. Then um, he gives a daily mana, but I would tell that Dawn and that woman listening don't be embarrassed to get help. Just don't be embarrassed to get help. Lean on your friends who show up and don't be surprised by who doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

And rest. So, and what that looked like for me. So um the Lord did provide. And so every time, so do you think I woke up and I was like, oh, El Roy, you see me, God. I'm just like, hey, Gorin, I'm gonna run back. Um, no, no, it's still a journey. So even to dawn then, I would say it's gonna be a journey, honey. But you, you know, um, is it Winnie the Pooh? Is it um you are stronger than you believe? You are courageous. There's a quote. So there I I know what you're talking about. I throw it in the show notes, whatever you do. Like, but it is that that you are like you, and my identity is in Jesus, and he does have me. And I don't say that as a platitude, but I have to go back. So, this is the other thing I would say to Dawn and to your listener where has God been good? And go back and look at that. That is the same God of today. Where has God been good in your life? And you have gotten through every hard thing. You will get through this and you will come out on the other side. I wouldn't trade, I never fully understood when Paul would say he gives thanks in all things. I'm like, oh, okay, we give thanks in the abuse, we give thanks in the this, we give no, you know, but this is a guy that was shipwrecked, beaten, um, you know, like I mean, he didn't have an easy life. Yeah, and I'm not and I'm not Paul, and you're not Paul. I don't know that they're left for you know, there's not another Paul, right? But um, I actually understand that scripture now because literally every part of my life I give thanks for because now, and God doesn't actually waste it. And I believe that redemption story, that thread of how we're redeemed, is also that He redeems our stories, and that I get to use all of my gifts now in a different way. I don't know. So that's what I would tell Dawn then and to the woman listening. But the first step is I got help. I got, and I talked to there were a couple of people that I knew personally that had been open with me about their mental health journey and that loved me through mine. There were safe people, so community. I am an isolator. So to all you ladies out there that like to isolate, I am happy with my audiobook, my dog, and my podcast, whatever, walking. I but I'll isolate. Um, that's the introvert. You can't. So I'm very intentional now about community and because I know that God works through other people, not just He's not a vacuum.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

Yeah. Oh, so so good, Don. And I I definitely um in going back in like my deepest, darkest place, I would say the help is what got me out, help and community for sure.

Delayed Obedience And Closing Steps

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Yes, because God uses all of that, and He uses all things, and it doesn't, I saw a non-Christian counselor, I want to be clear because I was petrified of being Jesus duked. And I'm like, I don't want you to over-spiritualize my experience. I don't want you to um, it was a short for a variety of reasons, like that served its purpose. For me, I do need someone who understands my faith. Yeah when that's just for me, but uh the person was brilliant and helped me and challenged me. And I would leave you with this challenge, Leslie, because one of the things she said to me that helped me recalibrate, because I'm always like, it's it was a calling. I was called, I was called, I was called. She said, What would it look like for you to think that it was a job?

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Well, yeah. Anyway, that's that's good, that's good. And and that is gonna speak to a listener today. I know that to look at it, it is a job that you got paid for.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

What is the next season for you?

SPEAKER_02 55:34

And yeah, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 55:35

And what does that look like? And to the older woman out there, I have zero mercy. If I can do it, anyone can. And so that's the thing. I mean, if you can't you can leave your job, you can recreate yourself. I am living proof, and he has provided and replaced. Has it always looked easy? No, it has not, but it is daily manna, so I will challenge and the younger one, I really have no mercy for, sorry, I do. Um, but I'm like, you can the world is big and abundant.

SPEAKER_03 56:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

And there, I know the job market's tough. I know all of those things. But if you have heard go for two years, for two years, like I did, that's just disobedience at that point.

SPEAKER_03 56:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

And then and and it's I just heard this term today, and it it kind of it was like a a gut punch to me. Um where it's delayed obedience, or where no, where you say that I'm I'm waiting on the Lord, I'm being patient. Well, is it being patient or is it delayed obedience?

SPEAKER_00 56:42

It was delayed obedience. I I he was, and if you really listen, I mean, there's tons of good books we could recommend on hearing the voice of God. And I would say I read them and I if you listen, the spirit speaks. So the same power that rose Christ from the dead lives within you and I. That's God's word, not Don's and not Leslie's. And so if you listen and get before him, and he speaks through prayer, he speaks through his word, he speaks through other people, like we know all of those things. And he was clear. Like, I mean, you don't have what I actually had another job at one point and had a job offer, and I still was like, no, no. I mean, I could see God go up there going, um, um, daughter, like I know he's sees the future, the past. I know that he knew my decision, but I was like, I look back now. That's one of the things where I look back and I'm like, and you were thinking, what, Dawn? And I'm glad I stayed. I give thanks in all of it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

Oh, I love it. Thank you so much, Dawn. Now, as as we close, yes, long-winded closing here, but so sorry, guys. Sorry. Sorry, Leslie. It wasn't no, it was on both ends because I just wanted you to keep going. I keep adding to the fire here. Um, but let the listeners know where they can connect with you and just learn more about your work.

SPEAKER_00 58:08

Oh, thank you so much. Um, you can connect with me at coach donnoel.com, d-awnol.com. I'm on Instagram. I'm sure you'll link to it in some way, Leslie, Don Marasino. And it's I would love to share more about what I do and about who I am. I'm passionate about women in midlife and in transitions.

SPEAKER_01 58:32

So yes, that that may be our next our next podcast episode, John. So just throw it out there right now.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

I think we need to do one on midlife and transitions. And have you done one on hormones yet? Oh, girl.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

I have I have. Okay. We'll we'll touch base on all of that right now, girl. All right, wrap it up. Such a powerful conversation. Um, and I just want to leave with the listeners that if there is one thing that I hope you take away from this, it's that you're not unseen, you are not uh forgotten. And maybe even what feels like rejection sometimes, that can be rejection from God, rejection from the role, rejection from organization. Yes, actually, it may be God just kind of redirecting you into something deeper. So if this episode encouraged you, yes, amen to that. Uh, if this episode encouraged you, will you take a moment to just share it with a friend? Leave a review, um, make sure that you guys are subscribed if you're watching this on YouTube, and make sure that um you just help for this episode to reach more people. And this message, there's so there's so many different layers to this. Um, but I think Dawn's message of just hope and being seen and um really just finding her identity of who she is in Christ. There's so many people that can relate to this. So, again, friend, thank you um so much for listening and just remember to keep chasing joy. And thank you, Dawn. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Bye bye.