Your Joyful Order With Leslie Martinez
Ever wish you had your own personal cheerleader or coach in your ear, whispering encouraging words? Telling you how to kick butt in life, plus showing you how to get there? That’s exactly what you’ll get when you tune into Your Joyful Order Podcast. Each week you’ll get a mixture of preaching and teaching from your host Leslie Martinez who is a Certified Life Coach, Business Owner, Wife and Mom. Listen along for some entertaining real talk about life, business and relationships. Leslie wants to help you to reach your goals and motivate you to live out your God given purpose, by bringing you insightful knowledge, resources and sharing some tips and tricks to take action. No topic is off the table here, just know that faith will always be the foundation of our conversations and an occasional kick in the butt might come in the most loving way! Get ready to take your life to the next level and learn how to chase joy!
Your Joyful Order With Leslie Martinez
#131- Faith in the Wilderness: Finding God Through Grief & Lament
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What do you do when your faith feels dry, your heart is heavy, and God seems distant?
In this deeply honest conversation, I sit down with spiritual mentor Paris Byrum to explore what it means to remain faithful in seasons of grief, suffering, and uncertainty. Together, we unpack the biblical practice of lament, why grieving is not a sign of weak faith, and how God meets us in the wilderness.
If you've ever wondered where God is in the middle of heartbreak, burnout, unanswered prayers, or life's unexpected losses, this episode offers hope, practical encouragement, and permission to bring your whole heart before Him.
In This Episode, We Discuss:
- What it means to have "faith in the wilderness"
- Why grief is a normal and necessary part of the Christian journey
- The difference between biblical lament and losing faith
- How suppressing pain can hinder healing
- Practical ways to stay connected to God when you feel spiritually dry
- How slowing down creates space for healing and spiritual growth
- Why God welcomes your honest prayers, even when they're filled with questions
Key Takeaway
Faith isn't the absence of grief; it's choosing to bring your grief to God. The wilderness isn't evidence that God has left you; it may be the very place where He draws you closer than ever before.
Connect with Paris Byrum
Paris Byrum is a spiritual mentor who helps Christian women experience lasting transformation through biblical wisdom, healing, and spiritual formation in the midst of suffering. Through trauma-informed mentorship and spiritual direction, she guides women toward a faith that is deeply rooted, honest, and sustainable.
🌿 Learn more: Between Grief and Glory
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Paris is generously offering 20% off her coaching and mentorship services. Be sure to use the discount code listed below when you connect with her.
Discount Code: JOYFUL- click here to book a coaching session
Resources Mentioned
Let's Stay Connected
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Remember... no matter how long the wilderness feels, God has not abandoned you. He is present, He is faithful, and He is still writing your story.
Keep chasing joy.
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Email: lmartinez@yourjoyfulorder.com
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When Faith Feels Distant
SPEAKER_02Have you ever had a season where you're still showing up? You're still praying, you're still believing. But if you're honest, something just fills off. Like your faith doesn't feel as strong as it used to be. Your prayers feel quieter. And instead of feeling close to God, you feel distant, you're tired, maybe even completely disconnected. And then on top of that, you wonder, what's wrong with me? Because no one really talks about what it looks like to walk with God when life feels heavy. Today we're going there. Because what if your grief, your questions, or your weariness isn't a sign that your faith is failing, but it's an invitation for you to go deeper. Today I'm joined by Paris Byrum, a spiritual mentor who helps Christian women walk through suffering with honesty, healing, and a deeply rooted faith. She's spent over 15 years guiding women through burnout, church wounds, and seasons where faith feels hard and helps them rebuild relationships with God that is actually sustainable. And today we're talking about grief. We're talking about lament and what it looks like to stay with God even in the wilderness. So if you've had a hard season, if you've been carrying something so quietly, this conversation is for you. Let's get into it. And at the same time, bring order in your everyday life. Let's just say the show will be the mixture of 2018 with the quick motivation from your girl here. Welcome to your Joyful Order Podcast. Paris, I am so grateful that you are here. Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited.
Defining The Wilderness Season
SPEAKER_02So today's conversation is just, I think, one that so many women need right now. Um, and that's faith in the wilderness. What does it look like to have faith when you are just weary, tired, kind of worn out? So I just want to start there, Paris. When you hear the phrase faith in the wilderness, what does that mean to you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I feel like there's many ways that I would go about this. But I think the first thing is that we are always going to be either entering a valley in the valley or exiting a valley in our Christian life. And oftentimes we think that because we follow Jesus, that there isn't going to be any suffering. And unfortunately, before he left, he said there will be trouble, but that we can take heart and that he has overcome the world. So when I think about being in the wilderness, I think about the Israelites wandering for 40 years, not having any sense of direction, feeling like they're exiles, feeling like God didn't even keep their promise, sometimes complaining, sometimes lament, disobedience, and a lot of confusion. And so when I think about that, sometimes I'm like, am I doing faith right? Or am I acting in such a way that isn't aligned with what God has called? And so when I'm thinking about the wilderness, really, it's a point of suffering in life. And it could be in a small way or in a large way. But really, when you're feeling like, is this pain going to let up? This can come in any form, right? It could be family personal crisis circumstances, it could be a faith crisis and feeling confused about the answers that soothed you before is no longer suitable for your situation, your questions of God in the Bible. Um, it could be a health crisis, it could be a moral failing, whether it's you have done it yourself or someone against you. And so a wilderness season, what I find it to be is a place in the messy middle where there's grief, but we haven't really seen the glory or the fruit of that season yet.
SPEAKER_02Ah, that's that's so good. I think that right there is just gonna kind of clarify a lot of things for a lot of women that are listening right now. And why, like, why do you think so many women feel disconnected from God in these hard seasons?
Why Hard Seasons Disconnect Us
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think a huge reason is because the church at large doesn't know how to hold grief and suffering and lament. When we think about Jesus, he drew near towards sinners and sufferers. And as I said earlier, sometimes our suffering is due to a result of what we've actually participated in or have done. Um, but I guess what I'm thinking about is that when we don't have a space to be able to actually name what is causing harm or the harm that we have caused, where there is no judgment, but rather curiosity with questions or like having Job's friends sit with him for seven days. If we don't have access to that, we feel like something's wrong with our faith. We, as women, will feel like we just need to try harder, pray harder, read more of the Bible, and try to be uh good or do better. And that still causes us to feel very far away from the Lord. And so I think it's because we don't have that space to be truly honest about what's going on in our life.
SPEAKER_02That, yeah, wow. You know, I sit and think one of the shortest verses of the Bible is Jesus wept. Jesus had his moment of grieving, of, of lament also. And I think there's so many misconceptions that are taught, even in the church, about what strong faith should look like. Because we think like strong faith, you're you it's it's kind of the whole like suck it up buttercup kind of thing of like, well, if you have faith, you're you know, you shouldn't be like grieving. If you have faith, you shouldn't be struggling with, you know, fear or anxiety or doubt. I myself grew up in that type of faith environment. And it's it's toxic, if I'm being
Misconceptions About Strong Faith
SPEAKER_02honest. So, what are some misconceptions that you have seen that are being taught about what strong faith should or should not look like?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what I've noticed and experienced in my own personal life is that people think that Christians should always have a smile and always be happy. And I think that actually does the world a disservice because they often see disingenuousness or hypocrisy. And if we are not being truthful with ourselves and with God about what we're actually encountering, how can we actually be a testimony to the world of what actually is going on and how we have a faith that encompasses that suffering and what Christ does for us in the midst of that suffering? And so I think one misconception is that feeling like you always have to be happy or joyful and actually express that. I think another one is uh what faith actually is meant to embody. There are some seasons where prayer and reading scripture isn't the answer to our relationship with the Lord. Sometimes it's presence with him in silence. And though that might make us, some of us feel uncomfortable and even unsafe in silence, sometimes that's what we're needing. Sometimes we come away from the Lord, not in the sense of you no longer believe or you're trying to deconstruct your faith, but rather we have not experienced the Lord tangibly in our real life, whether that's in childhood with our family, whether that's with a spouse, whether that's with our friends or brothers and sisters that we go to church with. We haven't actually experienced him. When we are to be called the hands and feet of Jesus, or we are Amago Dei, made in the image of God, we are called to reflect his kindness, which leads to repentance. We are called to um reflect his compassion, his mercy, his loving kindness. And when we don't receive that in human form, it's really hard for us to connect with the Lord. So I think that that's another common misconception is that um it is expected that if we just pray harder and we are consistent with our Bible reading, our our faith will be made something. Also, other faith practices that might seem, you know, out of the ordinary, like, as I said, sitting in silence, observing beauty in creation, listening to music. These are things that we wouldn't say, this is what we're called to do in our daily devotionals. Um, but this is a way that we can truly connect with the Lord in a different way. So yeah, I believe that those are three common misconceptions. There are more, but that's what we'll get started in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, that's those are powerful distinctions though, too, because I mean, I'm sure we can have a whole conversation on just the misconceptions uh regarding that. And I think it's so important for
What Biblical Lament Really Is
SPEAKER_02us. I I want to sit a little bit, Paris, on this whole lament thing. You kind of touched upon it a little bit, but if I'm being totally honest, I really didn't learn even the word lament, like what it meant until about two years ago. And this is when I walked through the um the propel, which is our connection, the propel discipleship. Um, one of the books that we went through, we talked about lament. And in my coaching group, my my disciple group, it was a big conversation. And one of the women in my group, she was sharing that she was in a season of lament. And I was just like, Lament, like, what does that mean? You know? And I always looked at it as a, you know, basically another form of grief. But then I start to unpack like, what does lament really look like? Because grief and lament, yet they they kind of go hand in hand. They are very different. So I want to go into if you can talk about that. And I don't think that those are topics that are talked about enough in the church. Who wants to go to a service all about grief or lament? Right? We don't know. We want to go and we want to leave church feeling happy and joyful. And, you know, we want to go out to brunch after and we want to have our, you know, our community, and we we don't want to sit with hard topics. So, can you define for the audience what biblical lament is?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and thank you for making the distinction between lament and grief and bringing up the fact that it does feel uncomfortable, as you said, not having lament services. Um, our culture, even in greater America, doesn't know how to take the time to grieve. Instead, we have celebrations of life. And while we want to do celebrate life, there's also a very real place to grieve death because that's not as it's meant to be. We're not, that's not how God created us. How I would define biblical amend is honest complaint before the Lord. It's continuously keeping that open connection with him while also really bringing all of your thoughts, emotions, even your physical body before God. That might mean in anger, that might mean in anguish, that might be in blame and in complaint. And the difference between complaining and just whining about what's happening versus lament is that honest connection before God and continuously talking to him, keeping that door open with him, and also asking friends for prayer in that to keep your heart from that bitterness that can take root. But we can get really close to that if you read the Psalms and how David expresses himself and other psalmists express themselves before God.
SPEAKER_02Wow. You know, so I read Job for the first time. I think it was early last year, maybe even two years ago. I think shortly after I went through the propel leadership, and this whole topic of Lament came up, and I became very curious about it, you know, and I decided to read the book of Job, and I was just like, this is sad. This is this is heavy. And I sat and I I actually let me reiterate, I didn't just read Job, I studied Job. I did a daily soap for every chapter in Job. And there were times where as I was reading, I caught myself lamenting things lost. I caught myself really struggling with and I struggled to complain to God. I didn't feel I'm like, all he's doing for me, complaining, um it kind of like makes my ear ears bleed. When I hear people complain, I'm just like, uh, you know, like I get frustrated and stuff. So for me to actually complain to God, I it it almost just isn't in me. So reading through the book of Job, that's where I kind of felt like all he's doing is complaining to God this whole time, right? But then I realized the importance of lamenting to God, and and there's a there's a difference. I can complain about things, which is natural, but I don't want to lose faith. And I think like people just tend to suppress those feelings because they don't want to complain, like me. I don't want to come, I'm not gonna complain about it, you know. I'm just I'm gonna keep quiet. We suppress it, suppress, suppress. But then it comes out in maybe a toxic manner in other forms because we're not processing it in the healthiest of ways. So, Paris, why do you think so many Christians suppress grief instead of just bringing it to God?
Why We Suppress Grief
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think that answer goes back to what we were talking about earlier about the common misconceptions. But I guess I want to just bring in here when God created us, he created shalom, peace, wholeness. And obviously sin entered the world, and now we participate in that and we are sinned against. And so now our shalom is shattered. And when we can't actually name what the harm has been done to us or the harm that we've done, um, we tend towards maladaptive behaviors, like you were just talking about, coming out in a toxic way. That might mean that our patterns and our reactions, especially to those that we love the most, come out in ways that we don't actually want and we know that doesn't honor the Lord, but it just happens. Um, we tend towards coping mechanisms for many people. That's binge eating, pornography, scrolling, shopping, um, doing things that tend to suppress the what is going unnamed, the harm done and the pain that we have. We continue to push it down. I think one reason we do that, as like I said earlier, there's not a place for that in the church. If we are truly honest about what is going on, if a friend came to me and and mentioned something, the harm that she has caused or the harm done to her, that would also mean that I would have to acknowledge the same in my own heart if our stories are similar. And when we have a friend that might say something, the question I would have for you and your audience is how do we tend to respond if someone brings something that is filled with pain, heaviness, or grief? Do we want to rush it to fix it? Do you want to say, um, but God works all things together for good for those that love him and put grit give a Christian verse bomb, I like to call it. You know, it's truth, but it doesn't actually help the situation. Or do we shrink back and say, like, oh, I'm so sorry, but um, yeah, let's let's go do something else. Um, we tend to go towards one extreme or the other. I'm definitely a fixer. I want to fix the situation instead of just sit in it. You said you studied Job. Job's friend sat with him for seven days while he was picking at his boils, while he was sitting there in the destruction of his life, all of his herds gone, his house burned down, his ten children dead, and his wife saying, curse God and die. And he was sitting there and his friend sat with him in silence. How many of us are willing to sit with our friend just for an hour in silence, let alone seven days? That would be so uncomfortable when you feel like you can't fix it. And so I think that that's another reason is that we have no safe place to bring it. Even in therapeutic ways, um, therapy sessions are only about approximately 45 to 55 minutes. There's a time frame in that. Um, we have to get in, we have to get out, we have to unpack of our emotions and then put them back in the box. Um, and oftentimes we can't actually bring our faith in there. And half the time we are having to um sift through and put a grid of faith on what we're learning in therapy to make sure that it is actually biblically sound. And in the in the church, it's often biblical counseling where we're applying all the verses in scripture memory to our pain. And while that's not wrong, it's not complete. We are whole creatures that God created us with mind, bodies, and souls. And we can't just apply a Bible verse when our actual physical nervous system is reacting to some pain that happened in the past that has gone unprocessed. Um, so I think we suppress the pain because of the very reason that we don't have anywhere safe to go, um, that we are caught between church and therapy. And also I think because what we are handed is much easier. Scrolling, right? Spending time watching TV. Um, as I said, our maladaptive behaviors or coping mechanisms feel easier. Shopping, um, watching pornography, as I said before, um, uh, going to at the speed of light in the busyness of our life, don't ever make a pause because once we stop, we actually have to hear the noise, what's going on underneath, and that feels so uncomfortable. And so it's easier to grab those things that are easier. But as you said, it's becomes toxic in how we then respond to our life, whether that's seething anger, uh, dehabilitating depression, um, ways in which we want to show up and we don't. All of those ways come out. And unless we name it and grieve it, there won't be processing of trust with ourselves, with God, and with others. And there can be no repentance, truly. And I don't mean repentance of things that we've done wrong, though that's included, but also repenting from the ways that we've chosen to adapt in maladaptive ways to the behaviors and to the harm that has been done in the past.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Wow, that that's a lot to unpack right there, Paris. Um well, I like I feel like I'm in a therapy session right now. Um, this is really good stuff. And and I don't want to rush through this. I have I have a bunch of notes that I like questions that I want to ask, but I want to sit here for a little bit because I will be fully transparent. My brand is your joyful order. And I love to bring joy and order to people's everyday life. Lament and grief don't land in there. I am by nature a very outgoing, optimistic person. So a grief and lament is very uncomfortable for me, like beyond uncomfortable. I would not be able to have been one of Job's friends and sit there and grieve for that long. And that is where I think God, in reading through Job, He showed me it's okay to sit and lament. It's okay to sit and be in pain with someone because again, I was brought up in that environment where, well, we have faith, so it's like, nope, we keep going, all like God works all things out for good, right? And realizing how that saying can be such a negative, like what we think is encouragement, but it can almost shame people for their grief or their lament. And I would do that. I I will fully say, like, I have not been able to fully understand how to grieve with someone. I think we're going on three years now. A cousin of mine, he passed away kind of unexpectedly. Uh, he was like a brother to me. He literally walked me down the aisle when I got married. He's the godfather of my children. And he passed away very unexpectedly. And I don't know that I truly grieved like his you know him um him leaving and there were so many parts that I had to unpack of that and grieve and as we're sitting here and I'm talking I'm I'm realizing that like a grief is is healthy, it's needed I wanted to like know we're having the celebration of life, we're gonna celebrate who he was and all the glorious things, but then to sit and just think like peace God.
SPEAKER_01I'm sorry, just give me one minute. Please do not be sorry. Your tears are welcome, and to remind you that the Lord collects every single one of them, so it's an opportunity for him to draw near to you, even in this.
SPEAKER_02I realize that I never properly grieved at the loss of my cousin because to sit there, it's it it sucks. I'm just gonna say it like that. I don't even know how else to say it, Paris. Like that whole it just it's not something that people want to do. So we suppress it. And then sometimes we get angry at God, sometimes we lose faith. And the passing of my cousin, I know impacted so many of my family members. Um and I don't know that it impacted, like I don't know that each of us have in a healthy manner processed the loss of him. When I think about um, you know, him, there are like funny stories that come out. My my cousin was like a jokester, so I always think of like the fun things, you know, and I focus on that, but I don't focus on the loss. And I think we are just kind of trained to switch the negative thinking and the hurt and the pain and turn it on to something better. So learning how to grieve, learning how to lament is very important.
A Practical Path Through Lament
SPEAKER_02So, Paris, can you kind of walk us through what a healthy form of lament actually looks like? Like how to create rhythms that will allow you to lament or grieve, but to also help to rebuild it as a form to still stay connected to God.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you touched on something really important that you were with your cousin thinking about the happy memories and him being a jokester and all of that, and then um pushing away the pain that you felt with the loss of him. And I think that it's worth bringing to attention that that is the tension of the Christian life. We are sorrowful yet always rejoicing, right? I talk about grief, you talk about joy. They're not at odds, they are in tension, and this is this is the Christian life. And until we reach heaven, that's what we continually walk out. So I just wanted to name that. Um, to process through lament, and like you're talking about a loss of a very important family member in your life. It takes your entire life, I would say. There there are different seasons with different griefs. You mentioned him being someone that is that walked you down the aisle. That that in and of itself represents something to you that's very different than your children's godparents, right? So there are going to be a lot of layers to grieve and lament through. Um, happy times and maybe even negative times, even as you consider who he is, his character, he's not um just a one-dimensional person, right? I'm sure that there are things that he might have done, said, or didn't do and didn't say that brought sadness to your life, and things that you didn't say to him or that you would have wanted to do with him that didn't happen. And so there are a lot of areas of grief, and then how it then touches each familial relationship. And those aspects are grief. So maybe you guys didn't take the time to grieve the last three years. You might be estranged from a family member because of his passing, and then that's a grief to grieve, right? And so there's a lot of layers to grief. Um, and as you unpack that, um, more will come up as you get to understand yourself and others around you. So your question was how do you actually process that in a healthy way? And the first is by noticing and naming actually what it is. So what you did earlier, you you showed us that your tears named some pain, even if you didn't have words. You taking a moment to actually sit there and and think about and grieve, even if it was for one minute, that is the start of the process, even if you're three years removed, right? Sometimes we can only sustain one minute, 15 minutes, not seven days, like Job. Um, and and then sometimes if we've all always suppressed that emotion, what we're deeply afraid of is not being able to bring it back into control because of the depth of pain that is there. And there are some seasons, like I did in one summer, cried quite literally for six plus hours a day because I was the person that would say, I am not going to let my past shape me. Ain't nobody got time for this. I have six children to raise, a household to run, and I need to continue to move forward. And that was a disservice to me. I didn't understand that at it at the time, but for me, that came out in just an underlying anger all the time. I didn't really feel any other emotion besides that. And so um, grief looks different for everyone. Um, processing it, I would say, begins with naming it and actually um being honest about it to yourself, to safe people around you to the Lord. And sometimes that's not able to be right away with God specifically. So a way to keep connected with the Lord, even if you're not able to actually even have words, is for me, I personally use a lament playlist on Spotify. And so I created a series of playlists that lasted from 30 minutes to two hours, depending on the time that I had available to me. You know, I have six children, there were nap times available, and sometimes there was 30-minute breaks, right? And so it I curated specific playlists based on the emotion I felt, whether it was like deep anguish or plain anger. And all of them were Christian songs. I mined for these songs, they're not readily available, they're not on Christian radio, they're not on the playlist that you would usually grab for. But I created these playlists because I wanted something that was biblically sound, theologically rich, and also named the pain that I was truly in. And that allowed me to take myself through that process of grief. I even have playlists that say, Yet I still will praise him. Like Job said, he named the pain, and then in the end, he said, I will still praise him. So this particular playlist is one hour and it goes through the depths of pain and lament. And as it transitions into the last song, it is a song of thanksgiving. And so I allowed myself to process through that and let those words carry me through. Also, I come from um a liturgical tradition. Um, I wasn't raised in the church at all, so this is all very new for me as an adult, but there are already pre-written prayers from the great cloud of witnesses from 2000 years ago up until you know, recently published on Amazon this month of our brothers and sisters in Christ who have already written prayers of the feelings and thoughts and emotions that you're already going through. So when you don't have prayers of lament, or when you feel like you're moving towards complaint, these prayers can carry you through and
Grieving More Than Death Losses
SPEAKER_00help reorient your mind towards the Lord.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's so much good stuff right there. Um, Paris, one thing that I kind of want to bring up, and I don't think either of us have kind of clarified this because you can lament for so many different reasons. I mean, one clearly is the loss of someone, as I shared, I, you know, don't feel that I really processed or lamented my cousin's uh passing in a in in a way that I would feel is honoring him. You know, it was like we're sad for a month or so, you know, and and definitely things get easier as you as you as you grow. But I there's a reference of like um the grief stays the same size, you just grow you know uh around it. And the grief never goes away, it doesn't shrink. You just expand from from that, but it still sits there. And that's why it's important for us to continue to pour into God so that we can we can grow. But it's not just the lost of someone that you would lament, right? I mean, Job, he had some very heavy things that were lost. I mean, his entire family, all his children were lost, his his business, basically, which were his crops, his land, his home, all his animals. Like, I mean, he was left with literally nothing, nothing. Definitely a reason to grieve. But there are other things that we can grieve, like a relationship, a job, an expectation, a calling that you felt what was for you, you know, you can grieve an opportunity that was lost. There's so many different things to grieve, but I don't think that we are taught or conditioned to align grief with the loss of a job, you know, and for or even to allow us to lament for uh for a season over a life that maybe you thought that God promised you and you didn't get, and you're lamenting or grieving because you thought that life was going to look one way and it's looking a totally different way. And we, I think as a society, have just been trained that grief or lament is really only for life, not for other aspects like relationships. So can you just maybe touch upon that a little bit, like what your thoughts or, you know, maybe insights on how important it is to still grieve those other areas besides just like loss of life? Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, so that's primarily where my ministry stands. It's not grieving and lamenting actual loss of life, it's all the other griefs of life, like you mentioned many just now. Um, there are also I would call micro griefs, right? When you see your children growing, when I have to buy my, you know, daughters a new bra, right? That's a grief because she's growing up. When my son gets his driver's license, that's more independence, that's growing up. My youngest son came in and said, um, started crying because he missed his brother, and his brother is seven years older than him. He's like, Why isn't he home yet? And I said, He's with his, he's with his friends, and he's crying and crying. I just want him to home. I don't, I won't be able to sleep without him unless he gets home at this time. And I sat there with him on the floor as he was crying, and I said, I know this is really hard, but then also life is gonna continue this way. He's gonna be older than you, and he's gonna leave the home sooner sooner than you expect. And so this is your tears are okay, and it is a very sad thing. So there are lots of different types of griefs that are range from small or what I would call little tea traumas to big T traumas, right? And when we talk about trauma specifically, trauma is stored and actually becomes a trauma when we don't do not have a proper space to talk about it and lament it. And so it doesn't become that trauma if we have that proper support surrounding us. Um, so other grief can be from childhood or from your spouse or from your friend, something that should have been there and actually was not there. And so for me, I come from a childhood of uh neglect for the first five years of my life and then severe abuse. Neglect is a form um like a very violent form of harm where it feels almost like something didn't happen to me, but there was something majorly
Slowing Down To Heal
SPEAKER_00missing, right? If you came home from school and something happened to you and your parents were nowhere to be found, or they uh minimized it, that is something that is very painful that they should have been attuned to you in. That is something worth grieving, especially if it was a turning point in life. Um, yeah, so hopefully that touches on some of the things um that grief can come up in. You brought up a lot as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, there's and because there's just so many different layers that I don't think that people really look at it as a whole. You know, we uh we understand the the loss of life, right? We understand that that is a form of grieving, but we don't understand or maybe even have sympathy towards someone who is maybe grieving a loss of a job. You know, it's like it's just a job, you'll find another one, like go go find other work. But there's, you know, or we're grieving your son going off to college, you know, moving out of the home. It's like, no, it's happy, like you're sending him off. You should be happy. And it's like, no, there is like this pain, you know. My youngest son, I have two boys. My oldest is in his third year of college. He actually is just home um right now. And my second graduates in a week um from high school. So I'm gonna have like two grown, fully grown, independent children now. And my first one, I will say that I did grieve with him because he chose he went away to college and knew that I was losing him. And that pain was just like, oh, his graduation, every I cried for everything, like everything, everything, everything. My second one, I'm having a lot of people ask, like, oh my gosh, are you sad? Are you, you know, have you cried? And I'm like, no, this one hits different. One, he's not going away to college, he's he's staying here. But I feel like I I kind of grieved with the first one, where this one now, I'm and this isn't a takeaway from him at all. Like, I'm I am still sad that like my baby boy is grown up. Like, I am so sad about that. But I also am realizing that my husband and I are entering a new phase of life now. You know, like we're we're I don't like to call it empty nesters because our kids haven't fully like we still pay for our kids. We're not empty nests, we still pay for them, okay? They're not fully out of the house, but it's just a new phase that we're going into. So I'm excited for that new phase for us. And I'm also excited for the new phase for my kids, where there is this dependence now. And because I've walked through it with the first one, my second one is a little bit easier. Like I know what to walk through. And I you got six. So I'm I'm like preaching to the choir here before the audience. Like you're just shaking your head. You're like, I know what you're talking about, right? I don't know. How old is your oldest, Paris?
SPEAKER_00He just turned 16 last week.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. So you haven't got there yet then. Okay, you haven't got there.
SPEAKER_00I'm just lamenting the growing into new clothes and having multiple drivers. Yeah. It's a lot of independence.
SPEAKER_02It's definitely different. So, so this year, um, my oldest son, he turned 21. My youngest will turn 22. He's he's graduating. Um, and it's our 25th wedding anniversary, and this is all within a matter of like two months. Wow. Uh, so there is so much life changing happening in literally these two months right now. And there, there, there can lie grief in it, but then there's so much joy. And I go back, I I love, love, love the movie Inside Out. I'm sure you've watched it, right? Yeah, joy and sadness go hand in hand. Yes, and that's how we look at grief. Like Paris and Leslie go hand in hand right now in this conversation. Paris talks and coaches through grief. I talk and coach through joy, and they go hand in hand. And I want the listeners to know that they that they go hand in hand, but they're so different.
SPEAKER_00I did want to mention something what you just said. Go ahead, go ahead, please do. When you're saying that joy and grief go hand in hand, um, it's very true because if we did not have joy, we have nothing to grieve, right?
SPEAKER_02And and yeah, they have to go together. They do. And that's what that's why when you go back, if for the listeners, if you have not watched Inside Out, the Disney Pixar movie, please go watch part one and part two. They both are phenomenally done. And you just realize like every every joyous like moment in your life might be surrounded by sadness and vice versa. There is something around there, and it's there's the the um, I'm totally gonna butcher this right now, but I know that there's a a verse of turning your um morning into dancing, psalm 30. Yes, okay, thank you, thank you. See, Paris is on it. Yes, I'm like, I'm midlife paramenopausal right now, so my brain just sometimes like I'm like, uh, I will forget words mid sentence. Turn your morning into dancing, into joy, right? And we don't practice that enough, I think. Like we just want to bypass the grief. We don't want to lament, we just want to be joyful all the time, which that was me. I will fully be transparent. That I don't even say that was me, that is me. And learning, like having you know, guests like you come on, reading books, just read the fact that I I studied the book of Job, it is allowing me to grow and understand this a little bit better. And even now, when I know that someone is grieving, I'm not sending them like encouraging scriptures, like, oh, God turns all things for good, you know. I'm like, I'm sorry. I like what can I do for you? How can I be praying for you right now? I am so sorry for your loss. I am so sorry that you're experiencing this right now, friend. Like, it's not flipping the switch and trying to turn their grief or their pain off. It's acknowledging the pain, acknowledging the grief and trying to sit with them, as you know, as Job's friends did. Paris, what what role would you say does slowing down kind of um play in healing and the whole spiritual growth of this?
SPEAKER_00Yes, as I said earlier, uh a coping mechanism is busyness and choosing not
Hustle Culture And The Martha Mindset
SPEAKER_00to look because it's very painful. And if you don't have a safe environment or a safe person to process with, it makes it also very difficult. So slowing down actually allows us to be embodied. As I said earlier, we are made mind, body, and soul. And what pain we have is often stored in our bodies. If you guys are following up on, you know, modern psychology, they talk about how trauma is stored in the body and how if we don't actually move our bodies, we can't actually bring implicit memories explicitly, meaning whatever is in the back of the memory to the front so that it can actually be processed and filed away. And so by slowing down, it'll allows us to actually see the pain for what it is and name it honestly and bring it before the Lord. Also, the Lord speaks in the still small voice. In that process of slowing down, staying silent, even weeping through that process of naming and feeling all of your emotions. It's not easy. I am the person that never slowed down, quite literally, never slowed down. If I did, I would have a mental breakdown. Just the nature of my childhood, going through foster care and all of that made it very difficult for me to slow down. And about four and a half years ago, I was forced to slow down because my whole entire life was shattered. And it was very scary at first because I didn't know how to sit with myself. I did not know how to sit alone. I did not know how to sit quietly with my own thoughts and emotions. And so it was quite disorienting at first. But the Lord met me in his kindness and in the wilderness, just like we said at the beginning of this episode, that his he comes as the pillar of fire and the cloud. And he will be there with us. But it's not always in the way that we expect, just like Moses was shocked when he saw that, but he still guides us through it. Oftentimes we just need to be still and quiet to see and listen. And that's not always easy. Also in our day and age, where it is instant everything and fast paced, and we want this healing to be, you know, wrapped up in a pretty bow in a box and be done with it. I felt like that for a long time. I was like, I'm I'm done crying. I'm done feeling this. Like, why isn't this goal going faster? But what I've come to find out is that God is kind and he is gentle. And if we if it was faster, we could not actually bear it. Um, he is bringing, he is patient in our pain. And that's really hard for us in this modern society. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, it definitely is. And I am a victim of the whole hustle culture. I was a full-time staff uh at Omega Church for like 10 years, and I thrived in the hustle culture. And believe it or not, that season where you would think like being a full-time uh children's pastor, that you would be closest to God, I was the furthest from God during that time because I lived in the um mindset of like it it was the Martha mindset. The more I do for God, the more pleasing I am to Him. And it was the hustle. I like it was about the do more, the do more, not the sitting. For me, Mary, oh, Mary's lazy. No, Mary, get up and do something. That was my mindset. That's how I had brought up. And that was at the time kind of the culture of the church that I was working at. It was how much more can you do? Like we had metrics that we had to meet each quarter, and we had to present those metrics in front of a room of every single staff member. And if we didn't meet those metrics, we had to explain why and we had to be accountable for them. So if I was had specific goals and metrics that were my responsibility to meet every quarter, I had to hustle and work 40 to 50 hours a week to make sure that it got done. I didn't have time to sit at Jesus' feet while I worked at a church. And that is something that our society has also embraced is that we are workhorses and it's all about success, money, platform, power. And we don't look at sitting with Jesus as a priority. We don't make time in our day because we are constantly, no, how am I gonna make more money? How am I gonna learn more? How am I gonna grow more? But growing comes with sitting with Jesus and letting him grow you. Yeah, there's so much to say on just that. Um yeah, I have so many thoughts. That's amazing. Yes, share your thoughts on that, Paris. Please do. And we'll begin to wrong that shortly after this, but please share your thoughts.
SPEAKER_00I think that's a really um good thing to bring up because when we choose to slow down and look at areas of pain in our life or harm that we've done or been brought upon us, um, we are saying to the culture and the church culture that I'm going to stop and sit at his feet. And to do that is um it it rocks some boats, right? It ruffles feathers. If you didn't make your quota, um, there is humiliation, there is shame, there is um an expectation, and we do anything we want, we we do to stay in belonging. And so they continue to perpetuate not being able to process our pain and grief. And then we come up with maladaptive behaviors, and then the church then provides a program like um pure desire or any type of care program that's 12 weeks long to help us get over these maladaptive behaviors instead of actually just allowing us the margin to sit at his feet. Jesus in Mark one, if you read Mark I and Mark is all about immediately, right? He Jesus went to go heal, then he would go off into the to the wilderness or on the other side of Galilee to be with God. And even the disciples were like, wait a second, well, all these people haven't been healed. What are you doing? Why are you leaving? Where did you go? And Jesus consistently went off by himself to be with the Father because that was the only way for his ministry to actually be fueled. We aren't called to kill it for the kingdom. God is going to do what God does through the weak and broken vessels that we are. The more we think that we can do something for him, as you said, the further away we actually are from him. He wants our hearts, and part of our hearts is that grief, pain, and emotion. So I'm really glad that you brought that up because that's part of what we were talking about earlier, a misconception that we have to have it all together so that we can serve God. Because if we're over here falling apart, how can we possibly be serving God? But I have been ministered by someone in my life that has been dehabilitated by a mental health disorder and could not leave their home and really struggled being able to just do anything for themselves, let alone other people. And their faith, their micro mini acts of faith and obedience has been the thing in this last year and a half that has like spurred on my faith so much. And they would say, I'm not doing anything, I can I can barely survive my own life, let alone serve other people. And God uses those very weak people to make his name strong. And so that would be my encouragement. If you do have a season of grief or a season of what I like to call hiddenness or exile in the wilderness, it doesn't mean that God is not doing anything in and through you, or that somehow your life is nothing because um, because you're taking a season of grief.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh, that's that's so good. Um I I think that that is just where so much of the real work actually happens, is right there, not just fixing what's on the surface, but actually understanding what's underneath it and what's causing this, but allowing ourselves the time to sit. And we don't do that. A lot of people just don't because it's uncomfortable. And who has time to do that? Who has time to sit with Job for seven days and just watch him pick his boils? You know, we we we don't have that. It's like, no, put like pull pull your stuff together, Joe. Get up and keep going. That's what our society does. It's like, I don't have time to sit there with you and watch you pick your boils, boy. Get up. Right, right. That is how we are are trained. And and I will I will be fully honest. I would be that one. Like, okay, I'll sit with you for a minute, but maybe after the first, second day, it's like, all right, no, pull or job, you gotta pull it together, boy. Come on, let's go now. Get up, start, you know, start going. Let's start picking up what we can. Let's like, you know, salvage what we can through the fire here. Let's let's sit and say a prayer here and that God's gonna work all things out for good.
SPEAKER_00And I do want to bring balance to just a little bit of that. I I don't want to want people misunderstanding and saying, like, there are times, there are different types of grief, right? And there are times where we definitely have to put our feelings in our pocket and say, I will come back to you tonight after I've gone to work and worked eight hours and serve the children dinner, and uh, and then and then I will attend it, attend to it. The point in all of this is to not suppress your emotions and to not let it continue to never be addressed, named, or looked at. And sometimes for me, some seasons was I'm only going to do it in this hour at therapy, or I'm gonna go on this week-long retreat and only deal with it there. And I will not address it for another three months because I cannot bear it. And my season with my children does not allow for that. But the point is is to make space for that. And the Lord will give you guidance and wisdom on how to actually execute that in your life because not our lives are messy and we do still have responsibilities.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Uh, Paris, I'm so glad that you you brought that up because that is such valuable information right now, is just as much as we make time to grow with the Lord, you know, we make time to pray, we make time for that. It's important for us to carve time out to grieve if we need to, because yeah, we we still have to show up. Thank you for adding to that. Because I think that is where the true value of what I was saying. I mean, I was being like fun and sarcastic about it, but it's so important to address that part that yeah, there are times that you do just have to be like, hey, you know what? We just got to pull it together right now. We gotta go. It's funny that you like you say that. I'll give a perfect example. Um, this last weekend we uh had a very special, I serve on the prayer team at my church, and we had a very heavy altar call. And there
Resources To Go Deeper
SPEAKER_02were some heavy prayers that came up. I mean, the the message was just so transformational. People struggling with unforgiveness and repenting, and uh it was just it was heavy. I did not like my emotional capacity was completely kind of drained where I was carrying a lot. And I'm like, God, I can't carry this. I have to give it to you. I was emotionally completely drained. I I mean, I had so many tears cried upon me, but I too myself cried so many tears with these people, just grieving and you know, asking for forgiveness and um just some really heavy, heavy prayers. I I needed to be able to pray for people the next service. So I needed to be like, God, I I have 10 minutes to give this to you because I have to pull it back together for the next service and do it all over again. After service, I came home and I had some plans after service with a family member that I was helping her with some stuff. So even as I came home, I didn't have, I didn't make the time to like completely unpack it. Yesterday I put time aside in journaling where I just was like, you know what? Yesterday was so heavy. Last night, even as a prayer team, we think thank God, God knew his timing. We had a scheduled uh prayer team meeting online, and we carved some space out for all of us to kind of sit with what you know we had carried for others and release it there. It is so important for us to carve time out to process and grieve and even lament. So, Paris, thank you for clarifying that. I'm so glad that you brought that up because I think it's so vital for our listeners to know and understand that. Paris, this has been such a powerful and honest conversation, truly. But but before we wrap up and close, I would love for you to share for the women that is listening right now, that is in that place right now, just feeling weary, maybe stuck or even disconnected. How can she go deeper with you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I am offering your listeners a free workbook. And this workbook really takes you through the first step. It's naming your emotions and what is going on underneath. Like you said, there are emotions and even body sensations underneath the feelings of stuckness or um patterns of reactions or responses that you would otherwise not want to respond that way. So I think that's the first way to um connect and get deeper. I also offer one-on-one mentorship and group programs. And what I love about that specifically is something that you mentioned, Leslie, earlier. Community and lamenting and grieving in community, like your prayer meeting last night, is so imperative to be able to be the honest with each other and be able to express your heart and be held without it being fixed, without saying, whoa, that's too much. I don't, I can't look at this. Um, and just being able to have that time. That's what I want to offer others is that that steady place of being able to say, hey, I'm here, I'm with you, I'm listening. You can tell me what's wrong. And nothing is too small and nothing is too big. And as you said, Leslie, there are times where we do have different emotional capacities to be able to hold these things. And I have my own care. So um, no one has to be worried about overburdening, um, just like you do, Leslie, and your prayer team. Um, because God has called us to carry things that might be too heavy for us, but it's because it's not too heavy for him. And he wants us to then come and give him our burdens. And so, yeah, I'm really excited to be able to offer that. It's a 25-page plus workbook for you to be able to process and it's go go through it methodically. Um, it does have a body sensations and nuanced emotions list because sometimes it doesn't start in our thoughts and memories as we start to process. It sometimes starts there. I also have a 22 relational needs list because as I said earlier, sometimes the pain that we have is because something that we needed we weren't given. And that's something to process. And also that list is there for when you are going through the workbook. You can say and tell a close friend, a counselor, uh a spouse, and say, Hey, this is the need I'm needing right now. And this is the definition of that. And it would be so helpful if you can meet that. Um, sometimes what we need is empathy and not advice. Sometimes we need to be challenged to grow um instead of being affirmed. And so there's different needs on there, and it's good to be able to get in touch with that and ask for those as well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, Paris, they God, I just I want to give you a big hug right now. Yes, thank you. Your hug. Yes. But no, you like you allowed me to process through some stuff today. I feel like for the listeners that are listening, um, this was kind of like a therapy session for me. So thank you. This is why I love having guests like you on because I selfishly get like to, you know, get to kind of kick your brain off this stuff and process through some stuff on my own, also. So thank you for just your wisdom, Paris. I I am excited to grab your ebook. Uh, you gave me a little sneak peek because you did send me the link a little early. So I did get a sneak peek and I was kind of going through yesterday as you sent me the link. I was like, oh, this is good. So, listeners, I want to tell you guys, make sure that you go and grab her ebook for sure. And all of that will be in the show notes how you can connect with her, work with her. Uh, Paris has a podcast herself where she is dropping wisdom. So, all of those will be in the show notes. And I just want to share for the woman that is out there that maybe this conversation was heavy for you, if it spoke to you. And I just want you to know that you are not alone in this. As you see, I shed some tears in here because a lot of this stuff is is heavy, but just know that God isn't distant from you, that he is with you in this season and that he meets you right where you are at. And if this season you are needing a little bit more, um, continue to come listen here for the podcast. Y'all can go and drop uh a listen for Paris' podcast also, but share. That's what's so important is to share who Paris is, the work that she does, share this uh podcast and the work that is being done here. And ladies, just keep going. God sees you if he needs to write where you are at. And remember to keep tasting joy. Bye, friends. Bye.