SPEAKERS
LILY, JENNY
LILY
I feel like you know, as a teenager, I wanted someone but it was always in the future. And it was always in a very specific context of like, I want, you know, I want to get married, I want to have children, I want that person, and I want someone who I'm gonna, you know, really click with it and have that soul mate love, obviously, you know, and I was reading all the romantic stuff as well and in love and having heaps of crushes, like, on all of you know, the actors and book characters and stuff like that. But I don't think I ever really felt that like, I want someone to love *me* or I really wanted to actively love someone, I don't think I really kind of, I think love for quite a while for me has been quite a conceptual thing and like a situational thing.
JENNY
Maybe it was a lack of a kind of demonstrative love from my father. And I mean, you grew up with an absent father but he was always far more demonstrative in terms of his love for you than my dad was to me.
LILY
Yes. And I think even though there was like, a lot of issues there, I think his absence has developed in me wanting to feel and see a lot of like, attention and like a lot of time from people if that makes sense. But he was always very, like, caring when I was with him, was very attentive kind of when I was with him, and very like acts of service. So very intense with his feelings. Yeah, very, like, open about
JENNY
and talk talked about his feelings. Yeah. And kizim, you know, very affectionate and yeah. Whereas dad, the equivalent of saying, 'darling' or 'love', or 'sweetheart' or something, no. 'Big girl'. And I remember he would call me 'big girl'. Liz, 'little girl'. And Jim, 'little man'. And it was affectionate. It was endearing. And it was sweet. But we hung on to that. That's all. Whereas mum would call us 'darling'. Darling, darl, darling or whatever. Yeah. Never honey or sweetie or love. But, yeah, so I hung on to that, like big girl, and I mean he meant it affectionately, it was his term of endearment. But yeah, so an absence of that from him. When you was saying about, you know, how maybe your father's absence in a way has translated to you maybe seeking lots of attention from friends? I think also, possibly that might be because you've had all of my attention.
LILY
That's also true
JENNY
And so that's your comfort zone having this sort of laser beam kind of- all encompassing availability
LILY
it's interesting because I wouldn't say that I'm like, attention-seeking with friends at all. It's not that seeking. It's an assumption.
JENNY
It's, it's a bottom line. This is the
LILY
Full attention. Yes. Which is why it's been quite interesting coming into the house and being in more of a group situation cause I do seek those very intense one on one friendships with people where it is just that to kind of not have that, and it's quite a bit of time to adjust to yeah, having having multiple people in a space or kind of conversing. Some people not listening to you, sometimes some people not hearing you sometimes. Yeah, and kind of having
JENNY
It hasn't been problematic. You haven't had any tanties,
LILY
No, of course not, but there have been times
JENNY
you have sought that intense one on one within the group.
LILY
Yes. 100%. With the people that I'm kind of drawn to. And, but it's interesting, because I think in a relationship sense, I very much. I think my stuff is definitely more centred around kind of the leaving or the, you know, abandonment stuff. If that makes sense. If you can kind of hold those two things in your brain of like, having that fear but also having that deep kind of knowledge and assumption that people do like you and do love you and want to spend time with you. I feel like that's kind of the two sides of it, which has definitely come from Baba of like, feeling that really strongly from him sometimes almost kind of claustrophobically so, but then also that real, you know, absence from him as well and not-
JENNY
and I think another answer to your original question where did this come from, this sort of real need to be loved and and to love? I think possibly it's also come from... I was just reflecting on friendships. So up to this point. I've had friendships but I haven't had a super intense one-on-one best friend situation that has endured or been ongoing. And I am an intense person and I am intensely, sort of... most of my friendships now are one-on-one. It's probably where I feel more comfortable. And I like- it needs to be balanced. So I can't, you know, I don't like it when the other person talks far too much. And I'm always listening. So it'll be a good balance of talking and listening and sharing and having mutual interests and that sort of thing and seeing eye-to-eye on a lot of things. But, so maybe I'm thinking, well, I will get that sort of stuff from a partner. Because there's no one around me at this stage anyway, that's gonna satisfy.
LILY
And that's that. Yeah, that's an interesting thing. Because I do think that often, particularly in female friendships, that I'm sure it happens in male friendships, too. But, you know, at that age, yeah, so much of that. It's, it's kind of like a placeholder often, I think, for that, and I definitely did that, like I did that 100% with ______ and it's such a kind of unconscious thing, but like, really wanting that very intense. From someone, which now looking back it's like, Oh, well, 100%. That's just kind of- it wasn't that I was wanting a relationship, that's, that's the kind of stuff you can *expect* from a relationship. That's not the kind of stuff you can expect from a friendship, and it takes some time to figure out what is reasonable to expect from friends. Or you know, this is what you can expect from family, not from friends. And I think because of that, maybe being an only child, and a lot of attention from you, I was expecting that from everyone. And I do still expect a very high level from everyone. But I have, yeah, adjusted kind of what is reasonable to expect from people
JENNY
And it's just being aware. And maybe they could be placeholders. Friendships could be placeholders for that sort of thing. But also they're practice arenas for that, you know, a whole lot of skills and strategies and knowledge, like learning that you'll then be able to apply or recognise in a in a romantic or sexual contexts.
LILY
Yeah, I've always had like, the kind of that opinion, which I think is maybe a bit flawed, but that you know, that you should, the only thing that should be different with a romantic relationship is just like you add sex. Like everything else.
JENNY
That's pretty full-on for friendships.
LILY
Yeah, sure, itis pretty full-on for friendships. But I again, I'm not that kind of person who has friendships that are not incredibly deep, and with a kind of connection, like, I just don't, yeah,
JENNY
and I mean, people are different, too. So that's you and your, your kind of standards and expectations. Whereas someone like me, even though I said before I'm intense, it all has to be on my terms. So I don't, I don't want all-encompassing friendships, and I don't want all-encompassing relationships, either. Because when I've had all-encompassing relationships, I lose myself in them. And I don't like that. And this is all with retrospect, I like to feel myself, I like to feel free. I'm a Sagittarian, I need to not be tied down, I need to not be taken over by another person. And the other person needs to be okay with all of that be independent themselves, and just chuffing along on their own pathway. And then we kind of come together and meet, you know, like, there are certain things so that's what I like, at this mature age. And that is what is a good relationship for me.
LILY
Well, that's the thing, I think, though, as well, it's like, yeah, I think, I think trying to find that balance between all encompassing and, and, and still kind of having, I don't know, I don't know, if you can still find something. It's not all encompassing. It's very healthy, but still very intense. Like, I don't know, if those two things can kind of exist together. You know, I mean,
JENNY
I think I guess you're finding out or you will find out.
LILY
Yeah, I guess so. It's actually it's quite interesting, because it feels very functional. Compared... You know what I mean. And yes, it's very early days and things are, you know, the honeymoon period, you just don't know where things are going to get to but you know, we're I guess we're kind of living in a fairly difficult time right now where we're having to deal with-
JENNY
exactly and yeah, what's normal?
LILY
yeah. And you know, so having to deal with each other's mental health and how we're feeling about lockdown and stuff like that and communicate about it. And that's been very good and, you know, easy to manage so far. But I think I think it's interesting because I think that like, all encompassing thing, I don't know, do you feel like with your first and second kind of serious relationships, like both of those were quite that? They were quite all encompassing.?Would you say?
JENNY
The, the first one was was, but it was me. I don't think he felt the same. It wasn't mutual it was but it was me, my first relationship not his. And for me, it was like everything in the world. And he was like, I gave all of myself to him. And then the second one, I had more kind of
LILY
reserved.
JENNY
Well, yeah, I'd like to think that I had more chill more reserve about it, but I ended up giving him everything as well. Yeah. What was your question?
LILY
Well, I'm just gonna say like, do you think those first two ones were quite all encompassing?
JENNY
Probably not. Like, yeah, compared to this. This one yes
LILY
was gonna say, I wonder if that yeah, there's been that big swing with this.
JENNY
Absolutely. Yeah. very deliberate. Yes. I was pretty self protective. And yeah, yeah. And and it's good. It's turned out. This is my healthiest relationship. This is the most successful relationship. This is my happiest relationship. And my, my, did I say healthy? You know, my best. And it's the one that's going to endure.
LILY
Yeah, well, that's the thing. And I do wonder if if not everyone but if some people and not to not to make value judgements, but like, you know, smart people get to a point where they start to make choices because I think so much of early relationships, it doesn't even feel like a choice. Like you don't ever remember making choices, it's just all happened. It all just happened somehow or another and then you end up and you kind of get someone and you're like, how did this happen? How did they get here? And I wanted to get to a point where you start to like, I'm going to make choices at least what not to do.
JENNY
yeah, but I don't think it's I don't think it's smart. I don't think comes from smartness because I made so many mistakes over and over again, with both of those first two relationships. It's more like, just I've been in hell. Let me finish what I'm saying then I've got to go to the toilet. So I don't think it was smartness. It was certainly not smartness, but it was more like I have been to hell and back with this relationship. I'm not doing it again. That's what it was. So it was just like doing everything in my power to
LILY
avoid that
JENNY
and protect myself and protect you. The difference was this time I had you. So even though you are a product of that relationship that I'm talking about
LILY
that hell
JENNY
Yeah, yeah. I was not. Yeah, I had to do things differently because I had a child. But also, it was like an opportunity. This is where we're gonna do everything the opposite, like in that Seinfeld episode, where George Costanza decides that he's such a failure. He's just gonna start- he's gonna make every decision opposite of what he would normally do. And it was a little bit like that. It was very, very conscious in terms of very deliberate and it worked.
LILY
Yeah, there you go,
JENNY
Yeah, I'm gonna go the loo.
LILY
I'm gonna try catch this fly.
JENNY
So okay, I'm pausing.