#104 Forgiveness, Expectations & Solutions

Forgiveness is for the forgiver. It frees me from the weight of carrying a life time of harms, slights and injustices. I think the world is unfair and I have been mistreated. I may have, but what am I going to do about it? I can be a victim or I can rise above it and get free, thrive and no peace. Whats your choice to be? There is a great group discussion in all the talks. Enjoy!

Transcript

Welcome, Mission, And Support Link

SPEAKER_11 0:03

I'm Roger, I'm an alcoholic.

Roger’s Story And Survival

Defining Forgiveness And Its Purpose

Resentment, Victimhood, And Release

Expectations And Everyday Annoyances

Karma, Reciprocity, And Outreach

Stories As The Language Of The Heart

A Simple Forgiveness Intervention

Five Keys Of Forgiveness

Open Share: Care For Aging Parents

Trauma, Safety, And Higher Power

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Welcome to the gathering. If you're listening online, this is the plug. Um, at the bottom of the descriptions, there's a link you can click to become a supporter of the group to help us carry this message. If you're so inclined, thank you. And if not, you're welcome to be here anyway. So the uh the point of the beginning of my journey was October 11, 1978. And I have uh I've lived 47 years past when I was supposed to be dead. So it's impressive to me, and the path that I've been on. So I want to talk about a couple of things forgiveness, expectations, and possible solutions. So one of my big problems growing up was resentment. I didn't know it was resentment, but I had kept quite detailed track of everyone who ever did anything to me that hurt me or bothered me. And you know this from your own experience. When you live with resentment, you live in the past, and there's no solution in the past. And then by reviewing it, you go you go back and you fertilize it, you feed it. And every time I go visit it, it gets a little bigger and a little more traumatic. And that that leads me to wanting justice, revenge, because I have condemned this person or persons or this business, this company, this establishment as wrongfully hurting me. And uh goddammit, it's got to get set right before I can get well. And if that's your mindset, you'll never get well. So forgiveness is for me, it's not for the perpetrator. And and there are there are obviously there are levels of things to forgive, right? But it's forgiveness is not well, here's the definition. Forgiveness is the voluntary, inward, and courageous decision to release feelings of resentment, vengeance, and bitterness to someone who's caused harm, regardless of whether they deserve it or not. So it's a process that Pratos prioritizes personal peace over holding a grudge, allowing one to move forward without being defined by the injury. Now, the problem is I have used my past harms as the rationalization for why I'm the way I am. Because if you've been mistreated the way I've been mistreated, if you've been betrayed and hurt and manipulated and slighted, you'd be like me too. And the problem with this is it's a victim mentality. And as long as I'm a victim, there is no solution. Metaphorically, I'm on my cross with all the harms that have been done to me. And what I'm saying to the world is I cannot possibly come off my cross, my reason for being the way I am. Until all of you parade in front of me, own your mistakes and beg for forgiveness. Which was not a conscious thing, but that's really emotionally what the setup was. So there's there's absolutely no relief in that. There's not even understanding. Because I'm fixated on what was wrong, what hurt me, but I'm not fixated on doing anything about it. I think you have to change for me to get free. And the I the forgiveness is I have charged you with a debt. You owe me because you hurt me, you abused me, you misused me, you betrayed me, you manipulated me, you owe me. Until I cancel that debt, I can't get free. So the idea of forgiveness is not for anyone else but you and me. It sets me free of my past. Now, there's obviously degrees of this. When you're talking about like molestation, rape, physical and sexual abuse, that's a whole nother level of this. And we know this the healing agent in all this is God, not me. Whatever you call God, life force, universal power, whatever it is, mystery. So this isn't so that's one level. The other, the other one is expectations. You know, all these little annoyances that go on through the day, maybe not for you, but for me. Someone doesn't do something that I expected them to do, and I get pissed. God damn it. And we talked about this a couple months ago. One of the things that came up in the last year is this idea when I'm judging that person, I'm really saying to the world, well, the world, why is it everyone like me? Because no one's like me, and no one's like you, no one's like anybody. Everybody's in their own little conscious bubble, right? So I want to prioritize my personal peace over holding this grudge. So you know the law of karma, you reap what you sow. That is a universal law, so it's applicable, applicable for the positive or the negative, right? The problem with this is I can't receive anything that I won't give. That's how you start the reciprocal law of karma. So I'm lying, cheating, and stealing, I'm full of fear. That's what I'm putting out in the universe, and that's the kind of things that are coming back to me. And then I'm sitting in my meetings early, said going, well, no one's loving me, no one's nice to me, no one understands me, no one's reaching out to me. I'm not reaching out to anyone, I have no understanding for you or compassion for you, or far be it from love for you, right? So that's my theory. I think the power in the stories, we were talking about this just before the meeting started. There's nothing more powerful than our stories, right? Because our stories are embedded with the truth, and that that's what AA calls the language of the heart. You hear my story, I hear your story, and you go, mm-hmm. That's identification. That means I've had a version of that myself, or maybe that exact same thing, but that's what that is. So these little expectations that I have, they're scattered throughout the day. And so I'm gonna challenge, I'm gonna challenge you. So this law of karma, my the quality of my life and my consciousness did not change until I started caring about other people, and I didn't know I was caring about them. I was listening to the stories over and over on Mondays and Wednesdays, Mondays and Wednesdays. And some of those things really touched my heart, and it woke up an empathy, which introduced me to a compassion. This was not conscious, but I'm listening to this guy share my heart'saking for him, or dancing and celebrating for him, right? Now I can start to receive that because I'm starting to put out some understanding, I'm starting to project some compassion, empathy, forms of love, and now it can come back. You know, example, we throw the Jessic, Jessie got a hold of me an email, and she's been listening to a big book study I did. And she's in Ireland, and she wanted to know if she'd come. I said, sure, if you can stay up late enough, you're welcome to come. Absolutely. But that she's not here because of me, she's here because of the power of that message. The power comes through us on the on the big on the big surrender surrenders. I'm asking God to change my heart. Because I can't, on the basis of will, forgive you. But here's a little gimmick I've been trying the last couple weeks that's pretty interesting, that employs the love car. So something happens that doesn't meet my expectation. Oftentimes it's an expectation I don't even know I'm carrying. And I'll say, I look at that person or that situation and go, I forgive you. I'm sorry, I was wrong. Now, I'm not saying this to them, I'm saying it to me. When I say I forgive you, I'm saying I forgive you for me placing my expectation on you, I was wrong. Yeah, sorry. And it it's like an intervention, and it just short circuits it right there. And you don't accumulate those little slight injustices through the day. There's some I did a little research for you. There's some key aspects they talk about with forgiveness. One is there's an internal shift, a change in my heart, the forgiver's heart. And it's subtle, it's not always here's another one. I've let go of the idea of getting even vengeance. You see how the heart's being cleared out? Another one, recognizing the hurt. It doesn't mean forgetting, excusing or condoning, nor does it mean ignoring the pain. So I have to sit with the pain, but I sit with a different understanding. Of course, it hurts, you know, and our book talks about this too, real or imagine. I could be totally wrong about this harm, but it's it's a reality to me, that's take up. It's a reality to me because the book it's a real or magic. We don't care. So I think I've been offended and uh I've kept carried it. The point is, I want to be free. I want to be free of the hurt, of the vent, of the desire for vengeance or justice, or whatever. Because thank God I didn't get justice. If I got justice, I'd still be in prison. So this is not an equivalent to reckless reconciliation. You can forgive and still maintain boundaries. If you have to end a relationship for your safety and well-being, so be it. And the fifth one is a gift to yourself. Why when you've forgiven something, you've let go of something. What is that? It removes the burden, the weight of the anger and the fear and the hurt I've been carrying. It unburdens me. And it that obviously leaves to an improved mental and physical state, right? So when I'm when I'm praying for forgiveness, I'm praying for God to change my heart about whatever the subject matter is. But I have to I have to be willing. And so the enlightened self-interest part of this is I'm willing because I'm tired of caring all this. It's not one thing, it's hundreds of things, it's decades of stuff, it's all that stuff that we grew up as little boys and girls in our formative year years. It's just deep pattern shit, and it needs to be addressed. So I've I I forgive you. I'm sorry, I was wrong. I forgive you. I'm sorry, I was wrong. I was wrong to place an expectation on you. And also, by the way, I didn't tell you I had the expectation. There's that. You failed for not being able to read my mind. And serve my every need. I mean, it's ridiculous when you put it out in the light. That's what the error is. Because underneath that, I have an idea that if I can just manage all this well, I'll be safe. Safe from what? Being hurt, being rejected, being unlovable. I do being betrayed. Being hurt? No, that's life. I need to find a way to deal with all this stuff. So I forgive you. I'm sorry, I was wrong. I dare you to try it on. It's weird because you don't even have to mean it. It just breaks the chain of thought. It's like it's like when you when you find yourself being afraid, the fear prayer is God remove my fear and direct my attention to what you would have me be. That's a call to consciousness. That's just it's I'm just shifting my consciousness. I'm sorry, I was wrong. To have an expectation and place it on you, and then be pissed because it wasn't satisfied. Like, I don't need it to be satisfied anyway. That's the beast telling me I need it to be satisfied. So let's open it up and see what you have to say about forgiveness, expectations, and what solutions you might have found along the way or findings. Because this thing is all evolutionary, it just keeps evolving with your understanding, with your life experience, and with your progression through the the principles that inform our recovery.

Willingness, Lightness, And Step Work

SPEAKER_05 15:04

Hi, everybody. Um a miracle happened in my life with forgiveness, just like you're talking about, Roger. I I know with a lot of certainty that I would not be able to spend time with my elderly parents now or to be able to help them out or the care that they need occasionally to be able to do that, and to have so much patience with them. It's amazing to me. I am I was never a patient person. And um now I'm I'm I'm kind of surprised at myself, but you are spot on when you say you don't even have to mean it, you know, you just start it, just start, you know, and say I forgive you. And I really like that part where I'm wrong for having an expectation uh on you. You know, I I expected my mom and dad to be like the Brady Munch or, you know, one of those TV shows, Father Knows Best, all that stuff I grew up with. Well, we weren't even close, you know. We were we weren't even on the TV, you know. But anyway, um to do that is like we sweep this our side of the street clean, and it is a cleaning out of my mind, body, and spirit of my soul that takes place, you know. And when I tell my mom I love her now, I mean it. I love her, I love my dad too, you know, and and that's just been the miracle to me that this program has shown me how I can do that, and um, I'm very grateful for that. And I'll leave you with this thought that I often hear in meetings is that an expectation is a premeditated resentment. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Thanks, Linda. Thank you. Next.

SPEAKER_04 17:09

Melissa alcoholic.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Hi, Melissa.

Business Betrayal And Owning Your Part

SPEAKER_04 17:11

Hi Melissa. I guess. I guess. Um, I grew up in a lot of fear as a kid because I had a traumatic childhood. For those of you who don't know me, um, I actually just did an ACES test today, which measures your childhood, I guess. And there's 10 rankings, and I got nine out of 10, which is not good.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

But it's like passing the twenty that's like passing the 20 questions for AA.

SPEAKER_04 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

I got all 20, right?

Dropping Mini-Grudges And Rot

SPEAKER_04 17:42

Right. So, but that basically says that it validated why I have so much um like I I I've never felt safe, you know. And so between uh you, Roger, and the pastor at my church, I've really learned the skills and the tools to get close to my creator and feel the sweet, tender, gentle love of that in my heart and in my body and in my nervous system. And I use the skills and tools um that you've taught me and that I've learned also in my faith um over the years to help me become aware when I need to practice awareness until spirit emerges and just take deep breaths and you know, connect with my higher power. What would the what would the higher principles, what would he have me be? And um, and then just with the repetition of that practice over and over again, I have learned how to pretty much maneuver any stressful or any kind of situation in my life that comes about that would disrupt my contentment. Um and so I just am so grateful for these for these skills and practices and tools because I can actually self-regulate now. And I have this new way of um seeing my creator instead of just like it's God, I know he loves me. I actually have learned how to let my creator love me, which in turn is helping me let me love me, which in turn is helping me let me learn how to love others and let others love me. It is hard because I because of my childhood, I'm scared to let anybody in because I'm it's too vulnerable. But with this practice, I'm learning how to discern the right people to let in. And then I'm just starting to get comfortable with what my sponsor called letting the glass wall down. So it's just been so great to be able to actually feel safe being vulnerable thanks to you and my my faith director at my church. So thank you so much, everybody, for being my family, and I'll pass.

Parents, Projection, And New Understanding

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Good to have you, Melissa. So you know, this idea of I forgive you, I'm sorry I was wrong, is one of those ideas that if you would have told me that 30 years ago, I said you're thinking nuts. But the history is full, our history, I believe I can speak for the group, but if it's not yours, I take it back. My history is I've taken actions constantly that I thought didn't wouldn't work, and I've gotten results that I didn't think were possible were possible. And it's this when you start doing this, this forgiveness and these things start coming off you, you feel lighter, you feel lighter. And it's also another place this shows up is is is the question right before step seven, which is what do you still cling to? All the injustice, what you're clinging to is gonna kill you. So I have to become willing, and oftentimes pain is the feature, but I have to become willing to lay it down, just lay it down and carry on to the best of your ability. But don't pick it up again. Thank you. Who else? Who is that?

SPEAKER_08 21:30

John. Oh, okay, John. Can you hear me now?

SPEAKER_02 21:36

A little better.

It Wasn’t Personal: Wider Perspective

Serenity Versus Expectations

Self-Forgiveness And Humility

SPEAKER_08 21:38

Okay. I'll remove this. Um yeah, so I'm not a person I've I've trained in quite a bit of Buddhism over in Asia and stuff. And so I'm not really a person that tries I I've worked an odd thing in the past. I I really don't believe in uh guilt or shame. Um I just I think they're um Not productive things to think. And you can acknowledge them and have uh learn from them, your actions. But along those lines, I um I'd like to think that I I'm pretty good at forgiving. And now there's a little thing called a grudge that it probably goes pretty close to uh not forgiving. Um but I I've tried to uh eliminate those. Um except uh in um in business, uh so uh I I was the CEO of a company and uh company I started on medical device and my COO um in the end did everything wrong. And you know, for a long time I I was I was upset, but then I just let it go, and it was so much easier to do that. However, um I did come across well I I merged with a guy, and this was my baby, and he turned out to be a pathological liar, he's just a really bad person, um uh ethically and morally, and um to be honest, I I still he's killing my baby, and so I still have you know problems with anger and um and um you know holding, you know. Um but I you know I eventually uh let that go as well. It's it's it's it's a waste of my brain space to be thinking about this individual uh who I'm not gonna change. Uh and then I was challenged when I was sharing this with somebody, you know, so I I I as far as you know, I with with nothing else that do I have this, but with this individual I probably have eight. And um I was asked, okay, that's nice, John. This person did all this stuff. What what was your part? And I was like, oh well, um yeah, I probably um was half the problem, you know. Once I really thought about it, I was undermining him constantly. And you know, um when you say something uh not true, I would spread that around. And um, you know, it takes two to tangle. And if you look at any, in my belief, if you look at any past situation, not any, I mean, there's there's abuse and things like that, which are just you know terrible and not not fair. Um, but uh you know, I realized that you know I had a part in that too. And I'll just find uh finish with one of my favorite um, it's actually a TikTok of all things. There was a uh Cambodian monk, and basically he said, Listen, uh life is sometimes painful, and there'll be death, and then you know, and there'll be situations that you feel like you've been wronged. I'm trying to get to a point here. Um, and there are situations where you probably will be wronged. Um, it's not fair, but that's life, and as long as you have the tools to move on um and the right thought, you'll be fine. Um, and with that I'll pass.

unknown 25:22

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Thank you, John. I'm not picking on what you said, John. I'm just gonna look at an aspect of it. So when John said, Well, I have this little grudge, but that's not a big deal. Uh so what I'm saying is I will allow a certain level of defect. This is what I still cling to, right? I'll I'll be honest, but you don't mean like all the time, do you? In every situation, you know, so I cut myself to the slack with a rationalization or minimization, and I'm lowing some rot to reside in me. And it doesn't mean I gotta be perfect, but I gotta quit playing games with my myself because there's stuff we all cling to. Anyway, thank you, John.

Self-Forgiveness, Debt, And Letting Go

Forgiveness As Grace, Not Willpower

SPEAKER_03 26:19

Hi, uh Jessica, alcoholic. Um yeah, that's a big one. Uh forgiveness. I mean, I think like since being in recovery, like what I've, you know, I when I first came in, I just I never thought I had any resentments, you know. I I thought I loved everybody, but but I I that was not true. And the longer I'm around in the program, the more I'm like, it's and it comes up all the time. It comes up all the time. But a big one for me was like using my my parents as you know my higher power. And uh, you know, I I I cut myself off from say my stepfather years ago just because of there's a lot of abuse and trauma in the past. And it's more fear-based, is why I did that. But I now I the more I can kind of sit with the stuff, the more I can kind of be like, whoa, like I made this all about me. And I look at their upbringings and their lives and what happened to them and the way they were raised, and they had exactly the same stuff happen to them, and they probably didn't know any better. And you know, someone said the other day that, you know, the real higher power was the real parent was the higher power. And I really resonate with that. And I think expectation comes into that too, because you know, with my mom, it's like I I expect you to be my mom and I expect you to do this, but I was so full of pain that I couldn't see all the crap that she had gone through. You know, she had been she had raised us with a an alcoholic father who drank and you know took everything, and she was just so shook. And, you know, that this is what need I didn't see in my addiction. It was all you abandoned me, you weren't there, you left me, you did this, and yeah. So the more I get well, the more I I have that understanding. But I do still have expectation. And I think when I'm not working a program, I start to use people and things as my higher power. So I'll go and I'll buy an expensive handbag that I don't need because I'm trying to fill this hole inside. And then I go on a meeting and I'm like, why did I buy that handbag? I've just gone on a meeting and I feel so much better now, you know. So yeah, exactly, exactly. And yeah, so I um I just I do that with partners, you know. Oh, you're gonna fix me, and and they're just people, you know, and that's what I have to learn not to do is to stop using people as my higher power because we all make mistakes. So that's where I'm I'm working on it and I will be working on it for a long time. But this program has is really helped me to understand that and to see my part in it, which was not easy, but it it's a very humbling experience when you can.

What Do I Get From This Grudge

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Thank you. Yeah. And you're having an experience of understanding, which opened your heart to compassion and empathy, and eventually that'll lead you to freedom. Someone was talking about the world, it is not a fair place. No one said it was supposed to be fair. Life is just life, it's impartial, it's not picking on you. Everyone's got a story, everyone's got trauma, everyone's got stuff they're trying to outgrow or outrun. So it helps me to understand that when I'm watching people that appear to offend some part of my self-righteousness. And I remember what would have to happen to you to act that way. You know, I found out later in life in my 50s my parents' story. And I I never grew up thinking your parents have a story, your parents, right? But everybody is shaped by what they grow up in. And my mom and my dad didn't know anything different, just like you didn't know anything different. I didn't know anything different because your world was what you were being shaped in. That was the world. Then you get here and you find out there's a whole lot of other alternative ways of seeing and being in the world than what I learned. It wasn't personal. It wasn't personal.

SPEAKER_06 31:04

Well eat alcoholic.

Mortality Check And Drop The Story

SPEAKER_09 31:20

The uh just a quick one from the story in the big book that has the uh the uh guidance about acceptance is the answer. If you go to uh a couple pages before that, his he claims that uh his serenity was inversely proportional to his expectations. And that's what I hold on to when I realize there's the trade-off. Expectations go up, serenity goes down, uh, vice versa. That's all I know.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Yeah, that's excellent. That's Dr. Paul. Alcoholic at it. Yeah, he's quite a character. Who else? Thank you.

Dualism, Culture, And Choosing Love

SPEAKER_01 32:06

I'm Kirsten Alcoholic. Kirsten. One of the things that was entirely unknown to me until I got into AA was that forgiveness is for me, for my peace, for my serenity. And how do I get that? I mean, I was just like, of course, of course, I had to learn how to forgive myself first. And when I first came in, I was just a pile of self-loathing. And there was really, I it was like not fathomable to me to say, I'm gonna learn how to forgive myself. And I was told in in the retreat, you know, we're gonna teach you how to love yourself, you know. And I'm like, oh, I want that. Okay, how in the hell is that gonna happen? Um, but someone walked up to me in a meeting early on and said, You got this whole thing wrong, you know, um, forgiveness is for you, so that you don't have to carry all this stuff. And I just thought it was some, you know, something else, something entirely transactional. And once I learned um that, you know, we're all fallible, we're human beings, we are going to make mistakes. It's part of our existence that we have different situations and different circumstances. And when I don't get a behavior or a or an action or whatever that I'm expecting from somebody, I just say, well, I guess they're just doing life too, you know, they're just human too, just like me. And I make mistakes all day long. You know, Richard Rohr says he prays for one good humiliation a day. And I love that because when I get my one good humiliation or 10 good humiliations a day, I'm just like, okay, there, I'm right sizing myself. Yes, that was really, you know, I wish I hadn't done it that way, that I made a mistake, whatever it is. Um, I really enjoy that. And it enables me to offer the same kind of um less expectation from other people. Like they're just having their human experience. I have no idea why that person didn't call me back or didn't fill up the form correctly or whatever. I can sit there and say, some people just don't know how to read or follow instructions or whatever, but that's just being a snot, you know. They probably, who knows? I make up stories. I make up a story like, well, they're on their way to the hospital because their grandchild is, you know, sick or something. And then I totally come back and go, okay, they're just having their human experience just like I do. And then the other thing that um as far as a solution goes that I've I've tried to put into practice is not asking for promises. I don't know why, but most of my life I'd say, promise me you won't do that, or promise me you'll be home on time, or promise me this or that, promise me you'll call me when you get home, whatever. You know, it's so self-serving and laying burdens on other people. And I was like, that's really not brilliant because human beings I don't think are capable of making promises because we all don't know what's ahead. We all don't know what's, you know, what could get in the way of fulfilling a promise, you know, whether it's a huge promise or like a like a marriage or or some other kind of promise. You know what I'm saying? Like, yes, I will fund your education, and then you wind up your kid's 18 and you're broke because family medical emergency or something. You know what I'm saying? So just knock it off with the promises of people, Kirsten. And that has really proven for me to sort of get ahead of the whole expectation thing. Don't ask for promises, try not to give promises, because we're all just at the mercy of life. Life is in session. And um, anyway, that was uh that's my little trick. And with that, I'm gonna pass.

SPEAKER_06 35:53

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_10 36:18

Uh so much so much to absorb. Have to think back, uh, growing up full of fear. Don't recall any particular abuses from any family members or society as general, but this fear of the world. And getting to the point where, well, I must not be behaving correctly, it must be my fault. Fast forward a little bit. I started blaming it on things like, well, I'm not Catholic and my wife is, therefore, you drink too. Which, as I think about it now, being a little older and a little more sober, uh, it was incredible the number of excuses that I would use to try and justify my drinking. And then I got to the point of this forgiveness thing. And I was talking with a guy at one point in time early on in my sobriety, and I he and I said, Well, yeah, you know, I've I've I've forgiven some people. And he says, Well, how about yourself? No, I I can't do that. Um, you have no idea how bad I've been, etc., etc. And I'm embellishing a little. But I had a hell of a time with this forgiveness. And he and he looked at me and he said, Doug, you believe in a higher power? Yeah, does your higher power uh uh forgive you? Has your do you believe your higher power is forgiving you? I said, Yeah. He said to me then, he says, Who the hell do you think you are? If your higher power can forgive you, then you can't forgive you, and he got my attention. I didn't particularly like that kind of attention, uh but it was true, and it opened up a whole bunch of stuff for me uh that that was helpful and it was healing. Fast forward again. Um my wife and I uh co-signed several college notes. These are financial notes for a grandson to go to college. And uh he decided he wouldn't pay for them. Now that was a huge one. Uh being a little bit older and getting ready to retire and everything, that sort of thing financially really bit. But I found myself, and I knew I had to do it, saying to him, you know, my part in this was I did it. I signed for you. And that causes a problem both for you and for me. And I just needed to tell you that because I got both of us into trouble, and I'm the one that started it because I co-signed for you. And I don't, I there was no reply, and maybe there never will be. All I know is even after that experience, from time to time, it comes back into my head, and I want to go to another roundup and say, okay, I think I better get even with him some way or another. I got to relive the anger and the pain. And I find myself saying, why do you want to do that to yourself? What is there to gain from it? Is there some kind of a possible thing in your head that you can possibly get out of that that's good? But the thing that comes back to my mind when it gets to this forgiveness part, I remember reading a story or hearing a story about this woman who lived through the concentration camps in World War II. And she was asked the question, you know, did you forgive your people that were holding you captive? And she said, Yes, I did. I did forgive them. And she was asked the question, how how could you do that? They would have killed you. How could you have forgiven them? And she said, I had to. I had to forgive them so that I can live a good life. And I in my mind, I think if that woman, if that person can forgive those people who were going to kill her, I can forgive almost anything and everybody. And I need to remember that. It's this old loose gear that I have in my head once in a while that wants to return me back to some crazy thought. Um, so this forgiveness thing, I have I have to keep watering it. I have to keep it alive. It's as you it's as you say, Roger, and I love what you said about forgive me for what you don't know about what I was thinking of. That's good because I remember early on in this program of whining and complaining about doing some things my sponsor was suggesting I do. And he said, I don't want to do that. He said, That's fine. You don't have to want to, just do it. You don't even have to like it. Just do it. And I did it for spite, and it worked. It worked. I I become willing, even in a resentful mode, to try it. Because he said, you won't know until you try it. Okay, damn you. I'm gonna try it then, and I did, and it worked, and to this day, things like that work, but I have to use some strange ways of getting myself in there, anyway. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Thanks, Doug. You know, Harry Thibault has some really interesting articles he wrote for the American Medical Association, one on surrender and one on forgiveness. And he says in that forgiveness is not an act of the will. It is God coming through me and washing me clean. So, what we're doing to set up the forgiveness is trying to remove enough of the obstacles that are stopping me from forgiving and let that power come and change my heart about it. Right. The other, another another simpler exercise you can do too when you're when you're wrestling with this thing that is a yeah, but not this, not this, I will not remove this, I'm not holding on, I'm holding on to this, I reserve the right to. So then, in a more in a clearer moment, ask yourself, what do I get out of hanging out of this? And what you're gonna get is you're gonna get stuck and you're gonna get pain. That's what you're gonna get. And you're gonna the beast is gonna be, but I'm right, but I'm right. Well, you might be right, but you're miserable. And we hold those things as non-negotiable, and those are some of the things that take us back out on the road.

SPEAKER_11 43:47

Well hi, I'm Tom, alcoholic. Hey, hey, everybody. Um yeah, this is always good, it's always very thought-provoking. And I hope I share something that resonates. But when we're talking about forgiveness, I mean the couple things. First one was um, and someone already said it was really forgiving myself and forgiving myself for uh guilt and shame. But I realized when I don't forgive myself, that's actually just being very selfish and keeping me very much in the same routine that then fall back and say, oh, just screw it, get drunk. Or and then really I had a thought, and and uh my higher power is is God, is Jesus Christ. I'm a practicing Catholic. And at today at uh Ash that the services, I was reminded, or before the services, I was reminded that Jesus was being crucified, and he said, Father, forgive them. They don't know what they father forgive them, but they know not what they do. Here's a guy being killed, and he's forgiving. And then the other one that so forgiveness is so powerful, but what's really really great is I'm hearing everything, a word that keeps coming up is that we all have stories, and and my story is different from your story. It's a little, but the but it's still kind, it's still a story that we made up on top of maybe what happened to us. And I think lack of forgiveness of ourselves, lack of forgiveness of others, and just sticking to my story, as you know, boring as it can be, that separates us from one another. And when we're separate, there is the lack of love, and that's then a reason to go in the wrong direction towards whatever a particular addiction is, and mine was drinking. So um I hope that makes sense. But for me, I really appreciate hearing from everyone, and uh it's all it's all a uh a great gift for me. So so and then the final words I probably heard her for you know a long time, 60 plus years. I heard her for the first time tonight. They put the ashes on my forehead, they said, You're from dust, and to dust you return. Kind of was like, ooh, okay. Kind of Tom, quit dinking around, dude, you know, with your silly stories or your lack of uh whatever, your lack of forgiveness for yourself and others. It's like you're not gonna be around here that much longer, whatever it is, 10, 20, 30. I hope you hope a long time. But I'm gonna go. You know, and am I really gonna hang on to a lot of this BS, the story that I may think is real serious, and you all would, if I told you, you all probably laugh about it. I say, boy, that's pretty ridiculous. So, but anyway, that I'll pass.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

You know, Tom, you're you brought up a good point, and also all that stuff that separates from me, me from you separates me from God. And I cling to this judgment I have about myself. I didn't understand, I didn't have a concept at all of how I'd ever possibly forgive myself because I had judged myself as being unforgivable, and the self-loathing and contempt I had, I saw no way of getting out from under that. The way it came to me was I had to convince myself this is about repentance. Repent means to change. Repent means to change, and when I change, after I changed for a prolonged period of time, the beast can no longer tell me what a loser I am in this area because I've cleaned that area up. And I start debunking the lies it's been telling me my whole life. And it's for me, it's been a very slow, steady progress, but slow. I don't get anything fast because I do trial and error on every idea.

SPEAKER_06 48:03

Who else? Thank you, Tom. Hey everybody, Paul Alcoholic. Hey, Paul. Hi, Paul.

SPEAKER_07 48:16

Uh just uh a couple thoughts. Uh just uh really um a lot of good commentary, and and Roger, thanks for kicking it off. Um I was reminded last night I was sitting at a sitting at our kitchen table and was working on some stuff and had the TV turned on with the sound down, and every once in a while I'd glance up and look at the shows. It was just typical TV drama, cops and robbers, and and and what hit me about it watching it with the sound down periodically or occasionally is it's it was one show after another, and it was good guys versus bad guys. And the the the good guys were chasing the bad guys, and they were gonna, you know, get even and get justice and vengeance, all of the things that you know makes for quality television. Um and uh it just got me thinking that you know this is this is the conditioning that you know, part of the conditioning, just an example of how you know we've been you know presented with these ideas since we were little kids, you know, cowboys and Indians. I mean, just you know, cops and robbers. It's just it's been there my entire life. And that's just you know, one way. And so, and then you know, throwing a little bit of family trauma and dysfunction and you know, the victim mentality, I I sowed that, you know, from a very, very early age. And you know, here I am 55 years later, starting to consider, you know, number one, what what it's done and how I've acted as a result of that, but then also the new ideas about um forgiveness, like we talked about tonight. And you know, where does that start, or what are what are the ways in um to being able to do that? And for me, one of them, um which is a pretty strong one lately, or say the last maybe two years, is to recognize that the same divinity that is in me that's gotten me to the point where I am in the program is in everybody else. It's the exact same. And I may not be able to recognize that in everybody at a conscious level, but if I can at least acknowledge that that statement that everybody has the divinity, uh, you know, that's a starting point for me to be able to work my way into forgiveness. Because anybody that's hurt me or harmed me, yeah, we we have to sit there in that pain. I think, like we said, I mean, those feelings are real, but the you know, being able to let go, knowing that that person, whoever it was that harmed me, isn't, you know, you know, isn't in their right mind. They're they're not as close, may perhaps to God as, you know, as the they, you know, if they were closer to God, perhaps they wouldn't have done what they did. So I I think that's just a a way for me to reframe it and to be able to sit with the pain and to find forgiveness. And then another one is just it's kind of a quick quote, and I think it's from I think it's from Rohr. Uh, and he or somebody said, um, whatever we can't transcend, we transmit. And that's just another way to spin and fulfill, you know, this negative cycle. Like I'm gonna get even, I'm gonna get my retribution, I'm gonna do you one better. And it just it's tit for tat and it keeps going back and forth. And and you know, you know, it's a really hard way to live your life and you know, try to get out of that cycle. So that's all I got. Thanks everybody for letting me ramble.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

That wasn't a ramble. Thanks, Paul. You know, the thing you were describing is dualism. We grew up in a culture that's dualistic: good, bad, right, wrong, cops, bad guys, good guys, bad guys, sinners, saints, all that stuff. Winners, losers, right? There's no second place. You're either the best or you're the worst. Right? When you grow up with it in that paradigm, it's impossible to come out of that with a healthy approach to life. And so you get here, and they find there's a whole new way of looking at this. Because if you look at the common reference to God, unconditional love, there is no dualism there, and so that's why it's so challenging for us to live these recovery principles in a world that doesn't support them, but it doesn't mean it's impossible because people are watching, they're always watching, and uh anyway, it's uh there's nothing more powerful than love, there's nothing more powerful than love, and if I believe that, then I have to put it in action to the best of my ability. You know, it's that I probably said this last last time we met, but it's I'm gonna say it a lot for a long time. People were created to be loved and things were created to be used, and the problem in the culture is things are being loved and people are being used. Everyone rides for free, right?

SPEAKER_06 54:13

So anyone else, Jesse, you made it so thank you.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

Everyone thank you for joining us for closing up tonight. And I'll see you in in a the first Wednesday of the month.