#108 4 World Views

This is taken from Richard Rohr's book " The Universal Christ" The 4 views are Material, Spiritual, Priestly and Incarnational. None of them are all good or all bad, but one is most useful. One is the most useful. Give it a listen and find out where you are on the path! This includes a lively discussion with the Gathering community!

Transcript

Welcome And Quick Housekeeping

SPEAKER_10 0:02

Welcome to the gathering. If you're listening online or on your device, um, at the bottom of the description of the talk is a link you can hit to become a supporter of this effort. And there's a link above it, you can send me a message. So tonight I'm gonna. This is pretty heavy stuff, but I'm gonna throw it on you anyway because you've been proven to be a rather resilient group. So we'll start there. Um, this is Richard Roarers. He's talking about four worldviews. First idea your worldview is not what you look at, it's what you look out from or look through. That's your conditioning, that's your bias, that's your prejudice, that's how you've been programmed to see the world. Okay, I'll say it again. Your worldview is not what you look at, it is what you look out from or look through. Okay, so there's basically he's gonna talk about four um worldviews that he's identified. Now, none of these are all bad or all good. That's the there's there's a good there's good qualities to all of them, and there's some negatives to all of them. So, briefly, the material worldview, the spiritual worldview, the priestly worldview, and the incarnational worldview, and you'll see elements of your conditioning in all this. So those who hold the material worldview believe that the outer visible universe is the ultimate and real world. If I can't see it, touch it, hold it, smell it, lick it, it's not real. People of this worldview have given us science, engineering, medicine, and much of what we now call civilization. The material worldview has obviously produced much good, so there's the plus. But in the last couple of centuries, it has come to be so dominant most developed countries, in most developed countries, that it's often presumed to be the only possible and fully adequate worldview. Now it goes to the negative. A material worldview tends to create highly consumer-oriented and competitive cultures, which are often preoccupied with scarcity, since material goods are always limited, are always limited. That's our culture. That's our culture. We're a consumer culture. And it's predicated on you, you need this, what fill in the blank, whatever it is. It's always, it runs on fear, I don't have enough. It runs on lack, there isn't enough, and it runs on shame, I should have more. What's wrong with me? Okay. So that's one worldview. Not all bad, not all good. The spiritual worldview characterizes many forms of religion and some idealistic philosophies that recognize the primacy and finality of spirit, consciousness, the invisible world behind all manifestations. It can be seen in Platonic thought, various forms of Gnosticism, which posits that salvation comes through knowledge, some schools of psychology, the forms of spirituality called esoteric or new age, and the many interior-focused or spiritualized forms of all religions, including much of Christianity. This worldview is partially good too, because it maintains the reality of the spiritual world, which many materialists deny. But taken too far, it can become ethereal and disembodied, disregarding ordinary human needs and denying the need for good psychology, anthropology, or societal issues of peace and justice. The spiritual world view, taken too seriously, has little concern for the earth, the neighbor, or the justice, because it considers this worldly world largely as an illusion. You see this reference in Course in Miracles. It's it's this reality is a projection, it's not real, right? The third one, the priestly worldview. Generally sophisticated, trained, and experienced people that feel their job is to keep us put, is to help us put matter and spirit together. They are the holders of the law, the scriptures, and the rituals. They include gurus, ministers, therapists, and sacred communities. People of the priestly worldview help us make good connections. This is a positive side of this. Help us make good connections that are not always obvious between the material and spiritual worlds. But the downside is that this view assumes that the two worlds are actually separate and needs someone to bind them back together, which is the meaning of the word religion, to bind together. It's also the root meaning of the term yoga. That need to reunite is partially real, of course, but belief in it creates status differences and often more religious codependence and consumers than seer seekers. Now, there's a lot of 12-step people in this meeting. So an example would be that person in your meeting that can quote everything and recite everything and can do nothing. Right? That's the Gnostic, that's the head knowledge. Knowledge is not sufficient until it's applied. Then when the knowledge becomes digested, internalized, that knowledge goes into our subconscious, where all our problems emanate from. So we have to make room for the subconscious, and we do it by removing the things that aren't, that are the blocks to us being the men and women, the people we want to be, and the relationship we want to have with God. So it describes what most of us think of as organized religion and much of the self-help world. It often gets involved with buying and selling in the temple, to use a New Testament metaphor. Not surprisingly, the consumers of this worldview fall on a continuum from very healthy to not so healthy, and its priests vary from excellent mediators to mere charlatans. In contrast to these three, is the incarnational view, in which matter and spirit are understood to have never been separate. Matter and spirit reveal and manifest each other. This view relies, this is our program. This view relies more on awakening than joining, more on seeing than obeying, more on growth in consciousness and love than on clergy, experts, morality, scriptures, or rituals. The code word I'm using in this entire book for this worldview is simply Christ. Those who fight this worldview must tend to be adherents of the other three, but for three different reasons. In Christian history, we see incarnational worldview most strongly in the early Eastern Fathers, Celtic spirituality, many mystics who embodied prayer with intense social involvement. Franciscanism in general, many nature mystics, and contemporary echo spirituality in general. The materialistic worldview is held, the technocratic world in areas its adherence colonized. The spiritual worldview is held by the whole spectrum of Hetty and esoteric people, and the priestly worldview is almost all of organized religion. Each of the four worldviews holds a piece of the cosmic puzzle of reality. And even the incarnational worldview can be understood in glib and naive ways, and thus also be wrong. I have this among many progressive Catholics, liberal mainline Protestants, and New Agers. When one too quickly and smartly says all things are sacred or God is everywhere, that doesn't necessarily mean one has really longed and made the space for this awareness, nor really integrated. Such an amazing realization. So there it is again. I see the truth. I can sense this idea as truth, God is everywhere. But is it my experience? And the way we get our experience is through suffering and pain, through having to push through those things that we subconsciously are clinging to. These other worldviews, perhaps, are involved in that as well. And reach out and through this the blocks. It has to come from experience. This is why we must balance Christ's consciousness with the embodied Jesus. Incarnation itself cannot become another mental belief system. Glibly accept it because it's easy and trendy. Only sincere and longtime seekers experience the deep satisfaction of an incarnational worldview. It does not just fall into your lap. You have to know its deep significance and seek spirit in and through matter. You really must learn to love matter and all its manifestations over time, I think. The incarnational worldview grounds Christian holiness in objective and ontological reality instead of just moral behavior. Ontological is the study of the nature of being, existence, and reality, which is what our whole process of discernment is about. Does this serve me? Does this serve you? Does this serve us? Does this serve a higher good or not? Is it part of God? Is it part of the problem? And we have to be able to do that. And to do that, you have to be able to make mistakes. Because the mistakes end up being gifts that point us to the answer. So this is the big payoff. Yes. Yeah, this is the important leap that most of us have not yet made. Those who have can those who have made this leap incarnational can feel as holy in a hospital bed, tavern as a chapel. They can see Christ in the disfigured and broken as much as the so-called perfect or attractive. They can love and forgive themselves and all imperfect things, because all carry the image equally. Even if not perfectly. If it's truly incarnational Christianity, then it's always hands-on religion and not solely esotericism, belief systems, or priestly meditation, yeah, mediation, sorry. As I've studied 2,000 years of Christian history, I've noticed how most of our historic fights and divisions were about power or semantics. Who holds the symbols? Who has the right to present the symbols? Who is using the right words? Who is following the ordinary, arbitrary church protocols based on scriptures? How does one do the rituals properly? And other non-essentials. This will always happen when you do not know the essentials. And all of this is substituting for, yet surely longing for in-depth experience of God or the infinite. One of the things that we always profess in our stories, that piece of me that felt incomplete, that piece of me, that hole in my soul that I was throwing money and women and power and cars and things in, was always the ache for God. There was God calling. So yeah. Now, Richard Rars, a Franciscan priest, um, monk, one one one wonders, I do not mean this cynically. If it had not a lot to do with job security, we clergy were the needed mediators and salesmen in the other three worldviews. Got to sell you on how bad you are, gotta sell you how broken you are, and gotta sell you on your salvation, which will come later. Right? Thus, most clergy do not see nature as the quote-unquote first Bible, but emphasize that much later version written in the last nanosecond of geological time and then called the only word of God. Yet those very scriptures say that the word was from the beginning, and that the word was always identified with Christ, which in time became flesh and lived among us. This is spirit manifesting. So Bonaventure believed that every creature is a word of God, and this was the first book of the Bible. And my underlying thesis in this book is true, and Christ is a word for the big storyline of history. Then the incarnational worldview held maturely is precisely the good news. This is an interesting disclaimer on the end. We do not need to name this universal manifestation Christ. However, to fully live inside of it and enjoy its immense fruits. So it's it's a reference to I don't have to call it by name. I have to call it. If it's Christ to you, great. If it's the Holy Spirit, if it's Jesus, great. If it's if it's Yahweh, if it's the Creator, if it's the Spirit of the universe, it's the life force, great. If it's a mystery, great. We say, and that's what we all have learned to varying degrees in our little adventure is that what you call it doesn't matter. But I have to call it something that I can relate to and that it will make sense for me. So worldview, material, spiritual, priestly, incarnational. Floors open, have fun. It's a lot, isn't it? It is a lot. And I just I just was hoping to stimulate something in you to reflect on this because we all have a worldview. My worldview has changed over the years. My worldview growing up is this is a nasty place, and you got to cover your back all the time because everyone's after you, everyone's gonna hurt you, everyone's a potential threat. The law of the jungle. That was my original worldview as a little boy. Derived from I'm not safe, and there must be something wrong with me because I'm not happy either, and not comfortable. Right? Then as you mature, the next level is what become the gods then. Well, the thing that replaced that ache was alcohol and drugs and distraction activity, you know, and and some dreams. I'll suffer now for the reward later. Deferred gratification, right? And sometimes I die before I get to the deferred gratification. And then we enter our recovery phase, and it's a whole new world, piece by piece, day by day, idea by idea. And I think this I think this incarnational worldview really encapsulates what we're doing with 12-step recovery. Your thoughts.

SPEAKER_11 15:59

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_10 16:08

There you go.

SPEAKER_07 16:11

Wow, I think you uh I think you opened up a uh a lifetime of um a lifetime of learning with this with this topic, but also particularly uh timely with uh with Holy Week and Good Friday coming and talking about Christ uh on the cross and dying and suffering. And you mentioned about suffering. I think what you said was we really learn from suffering. I didn't believe that for a long, long time. However, I've really gotten to know that there's an opportunity when we're in suffering. Or as I joke with my nephew, it's like, isn't it great that we've hit bottom? That once we hit bottom, and that's the deepest, hardest point of suffering in our lives, when we admit I'm I'm an alcoholic, when I admit that I'm an alcoholic and I'm powerless, it's so hard to say that because I was a drinker for 50 years, but but handled it kind of thought I thought I handled it quietly, maybe just look like I was a fun big drinker. But that when we really can get to that suffering and really get to that hitting bottom, whatever that is in our lives, and I'm powerless, there's such a great freedom. And that great freedom in in our relationship with Christ. And then as we're in in and I loved how you said in the worldview, and I tried to think, but you mentioned also about looking from, or how Richard Ross is how we're looking from.

SPEAKER_10 17:39

Yeah, worldview is not what you look at, it's what you look out from or look through.

SPEAKER_07 17:44

Yeah, so it's really how we're looking at something. And the many times that there's another statement, when we look, when we look at the same thing from a different angle, it changes.

SPEAKER_11 17:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 17:58

So, you know, so my life has changed in terms of when I when I say suffering, it's just I really get that that's a gift. And I really get like, I don't want hot topics, but I hope that Tiger Woods gets like, wow, this is the most horrible time in his life. Hooray, fantastic. This is fantastic. There's an opportunity now to come alive and live, and for all of us. But one one thing I was thinking in toy, I had surgery about a week ago, and I'm and I'm, you know, I'm here, I'm alive, and I'm recuperating, and it's all great. But going through the process of getting ready for surgery, I really was interesting. I had a lot of people praying for me, a lot of people caring for me, a lot of people. I wanted it to stop and go away. I couldn't let it in. And I finally got like, oh, that's the same thing about like, you know, admitting that I was admitting or not admitting for so many years I was an alcoholic because I was hot, you know, I was covering it up, I was keeping separate and apart. And that was the same thing. And I thought, wow, that's actually rather selfish. And I did really then just let that come in, which it's an amazing space. And a dear friend of mine said, no, and when I pray for you, he said that lets me get close to God. So I said a lot, I I yeah, so those those are some random thoughts, but you this is this is like a lifetime of uh thinking what you just talked about in those in those four steps. And uh and and I've been looking forward to to getting together with everybody. And I do feel whoever said it a couple of weeks ago said about being um connected or disconnected. I think it's such a theme that I feel I'm so connected with all of you. And what's powerful is that what we're brought together, you know, whether it be A, N A, Al Anon, there's really a hurt or that P you said around your words thus in our souls where we've been wounded, and we're here for that. And yet once we get that, we're not alone. We're all walking around with some sense of woundedness.

SPEAKER_11 20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 20:09

And that can be and so that's that's it. I'll pass. But I'm I'm grateful for for all the people that prayed for me. I'm healthy and and and alive and moving forward. I was yeah.

Suffering As A Pointer Not Punishment

SPEAKER_10 20:24

Excellent. Thanks, Tom. You know, suffering. Suffering is an interesting thing to ponder because all my life when I suffered earlier, I saw it as a punishment. I did not see it as an indicator or a pointer. And now when the suffering is on me, I know it's trying to teach me something. And so I look to the opposite of what I'm suffering on. I want things to be a certain way. Oh, I'm suffering from lack of acceptance. Oh, I'm suffering from lack of prayer. I'm suck suffering because my consciousness, my being, has slipped into fear rather than service or love or kindness. So suffering's a useful tool. It's not there to hurt us, it's there to tell us we're off the beam. Get back on. Thanks, Tom.

SPEAKER_11 21:16

Who else? Another way to look at your worldview is at your philosophy.

SPEAKER_10 21:40

What do I believe is true? What do I believe about how the world works? How I fit into the world. Who I be in all this. And that material worldview is not about who you be, it's about what you do, what you acquire. Right? Go ahead. Pardon me. Hello?

SPEAKER_08 22:08

Hello.

SPEAKER_10 22:09

Done, turn your volume up. Or speak louder. Okay.

SPEAKER_08 22:14

Hold on here. Is that better? Yeah. Okay. One of the things that occurs to me yeah, yeah, and I have to agree, that's that that's a lifetime stuff. Of course I want to do it in 20 minutes, but it's still a lifetime stuff. I think back to when I I reached the point where I could admit I was an alcoholic. But there was a part of it missing, and it wasn't until I found out that I also had to accept it. In addition to the admitting, I had to accept, okay, that's who I am and where I am. And from that point, I guess I got out of the way a little bit and said, okay, higher power, I don't know anything about anything that I thought I knew about. What are you gonna do with me? I'll sit back and see what happens. And recently I read something, and I can't remember who it was that wrote it, but having to do with religiosity. And it went something like: if you're following or are religious, you do what the rules say. If you're spiritual, you do what's right. And I see a really big difference there, I guess. And uh right now, I guess I'd have to say I'm on the side of the spiritual, because I see some religious rules as well not very agreeable to me, I guess. And maybe it's because partly I don't understand it and what they're getting at, but uh for now I guess I'm I'm more satisfied with the the spiritual rules. That's all I got, Roger. Thanks, John. Come on, weigh in.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

I'm Kirsten, I'll weigh in.

SPEAKER_10 24:27

Hi, Kirsten.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Hi, um I was just thinking about this very thing, I think, a couple days ago, um, talking with another AA, and um it's as though, you know, once you try out this trust in a higher power, and once you decide that you're powerless and you've been at it for a while doing the practice of perhaps living a principled life, and maybe you see a promise or two come true, and and you start to feel more comfortable about all of the things, like handling situations that used to baffle you or whatever, because now you're you're practicing operating on a higher plane or a higher level of integrity and you know, honesty. And then all of a sudden you're not worried about your finances as much. Like everything, everything isn't about the material or the money or the house or the car or the clothing or whatever. Um and I we just decide we did we kind of came to this conclusion, like the more you practice, the more you want it, and the more you seek more of it. And the stages, I mean, the the lenses that you presented to us, Roger, sounded a lot like stages to me because I certainly was all about the material world when I was younger, and you know, that was my script basically when I was growing up. What do you look like? Appearances, behavior, manners, cars, and the swimming pool in the yard and all that. So, and private school, you absolutely had to go to private school. So, anyway, um, it's been a wonderful descent as Richard. I think he says we don't ascend as spiritually, we descend because we humble more and we we realize that it's all good. And and like you said, Roger, the suffering is a pointer and we know how to get out of it. And every time I turn to Creator to get out of the suffering and say, I trust you. I didn't want this outcome, but I trust that this is for my highest good. Man, that's that can be really addictive. I mean, and if I wait long enough, it always, you know, shows itself to be true. God's plan for me is way bigger than anything that my small human mind can come up with. Um, my thoughts are too limited. And his uh plan for me, as long as I'm trying to be who he would have me be, gosh, it just always turns out like, wow, this is way better than I ever imagined, whatever the thing is. And so the the idea that once you once you kind of get a hold of living more toward once I got hold of living more toward who God would have me be, I want more and more of that because I can see the results and I can feel the results, and I'm never alone. And with that, I'll pass.

SPEAKER_10 27:23

Thanks, Kirsten. You know, the thing about suffering is it's not to get out of it, it's to get through it. My uh one of my friends used to say his prayer when he was suffering was God hold me here until I learn what I'm supposed to learn. Got the prayer.

SPEAKER_09 28:09

But what I heard in what Roger read was he wasn't, you know, outright rejecting the other world views. I mean, he was giving, you know, credit to to the positive elements of each. And I think, you know, it's it's not it's also not, you know, it's realistic that there's going to be components of each of those uh worldviews in in the incarnational worldview. So and what I like about the incarnational worldview is the, you know, I just think of it in terms of when I was going through step three and how I was just struggling with this. I I think really where I was coming from, the you know my concept of God at that time was probably uh probably just straight up materialist, you know, worldview is is probably what I had most, or that was dominating at the time. Um so it was just really, you know, I just did not want to lean into what I thought at the time was religion. And you know, what what this does is it just it allows you to color outside the lines of you know the rules and regs and the compliance of you know, just straight up religion and and really expand the ideas of of God and also Christ from the standpoint of I think Rohr approaches you know the idea of Christ from you know the beginning of the universe. And um so it's you know uh it it's definitely a wider lens from which to to approach things. And and also, you know, as he finished there, the the idea that you know it's really difficult to name it or you know, even Christ or Jesus. It's you know, I think it's ultimately it's you know it's beyond words. It's you know, resides in way down in our subconscious, all of this does. And I I think it's just a it it piques my curiosity, makes me want to learn more along the lines of you know what an incarnational worldview is, and you know, uh how it can impact the way that I behave in the world. So that's all I got.

SPEAKER_10 30:48

Thanks, Roger.

SPEAKER_09 30:49

Thanks, Paul.

SPEAKER_10 30:50

Go ahead, Phil.

SPEAKER_06 30:54

Yeah, I I am just sharing this beautiful description of each person that shares of of uh incarnational mysticism and the mysticism portion of the incarnation. It incarnation, of course, is the body, but or you know, material. But um the mysticism is the relationship with um my relationship with God, my experience of God. And it's and that's what the 12 steps um does. It it gives you it it because I I think all of us are all seekers. That's that's what that's what uh we're looking for in whatever gives us the juice, whatever we think is bringing us the happiness, when in fact it's God calling us all the time. And um and the uh and then the 12 steps are all about humility. And um from the first to the last, it's it's humility and um understanding my place, better understanding my place to right-size myself to better understand what my place really is in all of this. Um I'm uh I'm insignificant, yet I'm infinitely loved and important. And um it's it's such a beautiful thing. It's you know, I I had been reading Roar for years before um I got involved with the 12 steps, and what the beauty of it has been is just taking all of that so much deeper um through these steps. And um so um yeah, it's um the first three for for me, just to simplify is they keep us separate, and and then this incarnation is about relationship, it's about um uh all of us being one, it's about um the um yeah, the oneness, the wholeness. So I'll I'll stop there.

SPEAKER_10 33:11

Thank you, Phil. That that that reference you made, we're all seekers, we're all mystics, but that seeking is the seed of discontent, divine discontent that God placed in us, so we would seek God. And unfortunately, along the way, we we made a lot of mistakes about what was God, right? Turned out to be false gods, but it was all part of the evolution.

SPEAKER_04 33:45

Well, um, I am just so enjoying uh everyone's shares tonight. Um I guess I was thinking that you know how I grew up, I was completely raised in Catholicism, follow the rules, check the box, and it was a very self-focused, like this is all about me getting into heaven. And then you begin to, you know, being you know, you explore roar, and then you begin to read for me, then it was from there like these Christian mystics, and then other mystics as well. You these these exemplars out there. In fact, he he mentions in this book, The Universal Christ, about Eddie Hellison and her journey, and I mean it's just like mind-boggling, but it's you know, when I I think what the 12 steps have done the most for me has been because I think it's genuinely about getting out of the way and allowing love to flow out and to be able to take it in as well. And I can't, so these steps as I've worked them have helped me to sort of uncover, get out of the way the things that prevent me from being a loving force in this world, or to allow that, you know, force to to to go forth. Um, and even growing up, I just remember thinking, and it wasn't my father, it wasn't wonderful father, but I just remember thinking I couldn't sell Catholicism. There was something lacking within it, something that was not resonating that I just so when you kind of blow it all open and you just think like, wow, there's something the universal Christ, you know, it's this is huge, this is so much larger. Um, and the mystics point that out over and over again. Like, what we are is so crucial and so valuable. You know, that's what they can show us. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_10 36:26

Phil, you talked about humility. And it's the aspect of becoming teachable. It's essential to grow, isn't it? If I cling to the worldview I had when I came in at seven, eight years old, the world's a jungle, everyone's in it for themselves, killer be killed. I wouldn't have made it. I wouldn't have made it. So things have to evolve. And the beast doesn't want us to evolve. It wants us to revel in in our stuckness. It likes the status quo, even though it's not working. You'll break through. Oh man. Well part of this worldview too thing is it's not about, like he said, it's not about right or wrong. It's about how's it working? Kathy, you talked about, you know, and he talked about in this reading too, the rituals, the traditions, all the scripture, all the rules and the regulations, right? But if they don't produce a transformation, it's not it's not useful. Um Richard Rohr talks about this, and and he's in many of his books, he mentions it. But he said, Whatever you're doing, what whether it's a religion or something else, if it's not transformational, you're either missing something or it's missing something it can't give you. And one of the things he cited was the hippie movement in the 60s, which was in my wheelhouse. And he says they had it right. Peace and love. That was the deal. But it didn't become transformational because drugs came in and it stopped the evolution, right? So anyway, who else?

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Can I ask a question? Sure. Um, you know, you're talking about these these views, right, and these practices needing to we need to get something out of them, right? To continue them on. Why do you think it is that we cling to them so strongly despite not getting the the transformation? Is it like a fear of of being wrong? I've based my life upon this. Uh, I'd like to know your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_10 38:46

That's one of them. If I change, I have to admit that I was wrong. There's the shame component. If I if I say I spent 30 years saying there is no God, and now I'm confronted with either God is everything or God is nothing, it's like, what? So yeah, I I think the problem is habituated thought and conditioned responses. And I have learned how to protect myself from you, and I have a whole host of little things I can do to keep me safe, also to keep me isolated and a prisoner in my own hell. So I think the thing I call the beast is the is the uh antichrist, if you will, or the uh the ism, the addiction, the voice of the addiction. And it doesn't want change. It'll let me act. It'll let me go to a meeting, it'll let me get a sponsor, it'll let me do some steps, but only step work from my head. And then I've got this idea that I'm doing something I'm not doing, and evidently A doesn't work. And never got internalized. It was just noise in my head, new noise in my head. So I think you're right. I think the big problem is acquiescing to change because the beast then says, Well, I I'll sign up for change, but can I get a little taste of it? Can I see how this is gonna work out and see if I like it? Right? If I'm gonna like the new me. Who else wants to weigh in on that question? Say it again, Megan.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Why are we so or why can so many of us be so resistant to changing our worldview despite experiencing or seeing that it's really not working for us?

SPEAKER_10 40:34

There you go. Anyone, weigh in. What's your experience?

SPEAKER_04 40:37

I will just weigh in a little bit with that because of the fact that um it can change relationships, you know, and suddenly you're hearing things differently. And it's like, what do I do with this? Who can I safely go to and take this new feelings that are arising or these questions that are coming up? Because I'm told not to question oftentimes, or it's a mystery, just hang in there. And so it for me, stepping away has really, you know, it's impacted initially. I think friendships and and and what I was told, and then you know, like working through some anger, and then you know, so there's a lot of things that can arise. It's much easier to just go along to get along. But it's so worth it to continue that deep dive.

SPEAKER_10 41:30

Change is messy. Change is two steps forward, one back. Two back, one forward. Change for me has always been messy. It's gotten a little better in the in the in the in the more seasoned years, but it's it's still every time you're being asked to change, you're being asked to let go of something.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

And it's hard to get back in that box. You once you see it, you can't unsee it.

SPEAKER_10 41:55

You can't. You can't. Who else?

SPEAKER_03 41:59

Hi, Anne Allie.

SPEAKER_10 42:01

Hi, Allie. Go ahead. Go ahead, Emma.

SPEAKER_11 42:03

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

Um, uh great meeting. Um I'm so totally psyched to find it on my phone so I could read it. Um, I love um it. I'm not sure if that was card like what you read, but I love the fact that um like it sort of alludes to the fact that Buddhism is so internal, you know, it's very sort of contemplative. And then when it comes to more like Christianity, it's like go, go, it's all about action and sort of the blending of the two, because again, the result you're looking to whether it's you know, develop um a loving union with other folks or you know, be a good person, et cetera. You need a dose of both. And that's why I love um I relate it to what the AA steps have done. Um, because you sort of it gives you this like a solid guideline through the steps. And then you apply your own experiences to it. And I think it like was said, it's like um I sort of grew up thinking there was like a formula for happiness or a yes or safety, I guess I'd call it now for a safe life. And the what it was was what can I do to get that the formula right? What actions can I take? And in that, it was um such a daunting task, but it also kept me so distracted by thinking, okay, well, if I do more of this, if I'm a nicer person here, or if I do, it was much quote, safer than having to sort of adapt to the situation or you know, acknowledge um either behaviors in myself or in others that I didn't agree with. But you know, and when you're younger, there's nothing you can really do. And then again, sort of how to that best was sort of addressed about how to best, you know, continue to keep a sense of self, but also you got to get along with other people and you might be wrong about some things, or that it's like you don't, there's not this sort of, you know, you're either a you know, in a box and that black and white thinking is I think obviously a challenge because and that's what I love about you know any sort of spiritual or religious or like I said really for me the 12 steps because um it's just this idea of again providing that sort of framework that I need that basically at the end of the day is like you're gonna be okay I love that expression well things might not be okay but you're gonna be okay and I think that some of the you know seeking like that there's one answer like you know if I become a you know that it's like clinging to one thing is so much easier than saying well or in this situation I think it's either sort of um like you said that the things get a little muddier like in this situation and so I think that um even my brother who's a practicing Buddhist said you know it's like I love all of it but I really miss the community of a more of a Christian based or you know whatever a non-Buddhist um faith because of that community because hey if we're trying to do good things and I think again the last thing I'll just say is I think part of the turnoff is when you get into it's a well here's the way you do it and there's one way to be a good Christian there's one way and you need to you know if you don't do these things you know then you know not yet and I think that's where um the ability to question some of these religions and so forth respectfully um you know they're they're honest questions but I think sometimes again it's like because that's you know because it was written in the Bible or you know there's a sort of like uh because answer anyway so I really um this book is fascinating and I do um again love you know the best thing about the steps is it's like a practical guide. I mean it's it's there's real world application and I think that's what um that's what the gist I get is sort of like um uh again be open to other views and again but what are you trying to do here?

Shame Trust And Letting Love In

SPEAKER_00 46:01

What's you know forest for the trees and um you know what um yeah be aware of what you're bringing into the world and what how you're viewing it and the pause of like is this maybe is this really what I think and um uh yeah others may be right and others may be wrong but you know what path am I going to take so um super interesting reading thanks thanks Ellie you know this this idea you're talking about earlier in your talk it's not a meritocracy you don't have to earn your way anywhere you're already loved and accepted you just can't realize it there's nothing there's nowhere to go it's all here heaven on earth heaven is in here it's the Christ consciousness divinity that resides in all of us the thing that drags you to the gathering the thing that drags you to seek and read and study more and challenge yourself I think Kathy was talking about you know out or Paul was outside the box just destroy the damn box right the box is no use the box is about fear and withholding the box is not my friend but when you pull all the lids down over you it can give you the the false sense of safety and security but it's so bloody limited were you gonna say something Paul yeah it was kind of back to Megan's question about you know what what inhibits us and I I think from my experience uh especially when I was trying to get sober it was um just straight up fear and shame um I was paralyzed with fear you know the idea of going to a a meeting and admitting that you know I was weak and I needed help um that just that kept me from seeking help or trying to attempt to to make a change in my life for many years and I think that's what it buries a lot of people unfortunately um just never being able to move past the fear thanks Paul what is what is one of the things that drags us out of that is when we identify with someone's story when we hear someone's story it's always the story about it's not the story about how I quit drinking it's a story about how I found and established a relationship with a God of my understanding and on the way when we're going through all the terrible times and you're nodding along that's identification and you end up feeling a vague sense of hope I didn't know what it was when it was happening but it was like God maybe I can do this if that guy can do it he's much worse than I was not that I judge anyone right but it's just it's fascinating because it every if we had everyone could tell their story it's all they're all different and there's some elements that are the same fear shame depression loneliness isolation we all know that different degrees help us right this has turned out well I think who else wanted to share and like to share go ahead um hi Natalie hello I really related to just like everything everyone has shared in the reading um I'm very new into my journey and I have been feeling the divine discomfort and like not wanting to change my worldly lens and just suffering because of it. And to speak to like Megan's question like the idea of changing that is going to change every single part of my life I have ever known even though I know that's not where I should be and it is not healthy. It's gonna change everything and those like relationships you have with people and family are affected by it. And so I was like okay great like I'm gonna do this this feels good. And that was like step one done step two done step three done like I'm ready to change and I was like hold up here step three this is not going well and I right before this was just talking to somebody about it. And I was like I just I'm questioning my idea of my higher power and my God that I've had my entire life that I've been conditioned to believe that is it and just feeling so torn and like I can't actually give things over to my higher power because I don't trust my higher power. Like I question things about my higher power that I thought I've had my entire life. And so just talking about that today was like okay like there is actually like other options besides what I've been conditioned to believe of my higher power and I just have to find that for myself. So everyone's shares in the reading just really like put me right where what I needed to hear today. And I'm very grateful for the meeting.

SPEAKER_10 51:35

Your observation about change is correct everything's gonna change but it's not all going to change at once it's gonna change a little bit at a time it's gonna change only with the things that I will submit to the process and then as I get better and better results I become more willing to put more of the problem into the into the mix into the false the false self into the process but it's also scary if you've been raised in a in a specific religion to challenge that is blasphemy. You're just well you're just you've fallen away your your belief your faith is just lacking well here's some shame and let me bitch slap you a little bit right God it's just impossible it's just impossible so I I had that experience when I was a kid I heard uh two messages about God we were I was Lutheran we were in confirmation I was a little boy he said God is love and then I heard the other side of God the punishing wrathful vengeful jealous God and I'm going which is it because I've already screwed up enough to know at eight or nine years old that I've already violated a bunch of the rules and I don't want to run into this angry pissed off punishing God and I I asked my pastor which is it and he didn't have an answer so I went the youth pastor so I went to the senior pastor and he didn't have an answer and I left and when I left I thought I left God and prayer and all the stuff that goes with it there. And I'm on my own now self-reliance is the code right make it happen. Make it happen and if you can't don't let anyone know don't let anyone know you're struggling don't let anyone know you're hurting don't let anyone know you need help. That's all weak and don't cry all that stuff right boy pretty tough pretty tough well I'm Rhonda I'm an alcoholic.

SPEAKER_05 53:54

Hi Rhonda uh Natalie I'm also on step three so I know I can't relate with you but I've been um sober for over a year and I'm still on step three um I almost didn't want to get my year coin because I feel like all I did was make mistakes over the course of that year but I've learned a lot through the suffering I've and mistakes of this last year. And I'm starting to see that and the thing that blocks me from turning it over is um like trust and how egotistical is it to say I don't trust God I mean who do I think I am? I hear it when I say it. But um shame you know I was raised in shame I was taught shame I lived in it I was doused in it you know I was told I uh demonstrated I was not worthy of love. So now for me to turn this over and relax into faith I've got to let him love me. And so at last week's meeting a woman suggested I prayed dear God help me let you love me. And I've been doing that and I've been practicing acting like I have faith and God really does love me. And it's like humility backwards like I think I'm just not worthy on a cellular level so I is that ego I don't know that's a psychic wound I think and that's the window through which I see it's uh my paradigm you know I see I don't trust I don't think I'm worthy and nobody can get close.

Order Disorder Reorder And Closing

SPEAKER_10 55:51

That's right because if I let you in I'm offering the possibility of being hurt right and I can't stand being hurt because every time you disappoint me I feel my unworthiness so what I do with people is when we're we're stuck on this program this God idea I said let's just pick a principle what do you think do you think love is real do you think peace is real do you think kindness is real most oftentimes they pick peace and we're just gonna grow towards peace okay so now the inventory question is is what I'm thinking about to say or do promote peace or not? If it's not don't do it. If it is you can proceed with pretty good understanding that it's the right move. But it's the other thing to do I think you mentioned it too is interview people. If you're going to meetings and there's someone in the meeting that when they talk you resonate to that sit them get them on the side after the meeting or before the meeting and say so how did you establish this relationship with God or tell me about your prayer life I like what you say but how do you do it? What are the what are the words it's not about the words it's about the heart right that's great. It'll be fine you just got to keep pushing through it because the ism and shame is a huge one and we all have it and I was raised in a shame-based environment too and it's just hard to believe anything anyone says to you that's positive you immediately put the disclaimer on it and diminish it and discard it. One of the ways you can tell how much shame you carry is what do you do with compliments? Dismiss them, minimize them oh you know it's definitely that's no big deal. That's what I used to do all the time and a guy came up to you afterwards and said hey you know when those people come up and say nice things to you and you poo-poo them you're really slapping them in the face and tell them you don't know what you're doing. So I had to learn to say thank you thank you. No explanation just thank you that's good. It's not a fun place to be but it's a temporary place if you keep leaning into this because my faith is my belief in the unseen and the unknowable my belief is what has happened I'm here I'm sober. I found a small community that I've I've found some people in that community all that is gold. All that is the guidance that we keep where is this God thing? It's showing up all around you you know when I got into AA everyone in my meeting was 20 years older than me. I came in at 30 and they were all old there like 50 and 60 and World War II veterans and all that stuff. And uh I just couldn't see the God in that but when I looked back it was all God those guys loved me and tolerated me and I was a piece of work and they just they just loved on me. And the way they loved on me was they told me the truth when I was available to it. And it didn't say it wasn't politically correct I said I'm depressed and I have low self-esteem and they say you're an asshole you should change and I'm going this is the love I've been looking for but it was a truth capital T. Sitting around feeling sorry for yourself how can you have a good mood when you're feeling sorry for yourself who else we got to go pretty soon we got time for one more two more anyone so if you like this the next appendix appendix is patterns of spiritual transformation and there's three parts order which is what we come in with what Ron is talking about the order we all came in with then there's disorder that's everything falling apart and then the third phase is reorder putting it back together does that seem interesting to anyone okay well maybe we'll do that next time too this has been uh I love coming across this stuff and I love sharing it with you guys. It's uh because it's all the same stuff you're a good Catholic you're a good Jew you have that experience you're a good AA you have that experience it's the same damn experience it's transformative I am not who I used to be I still have the capacity to screw myself up but I also now have the capacity to rebound and learn from it beautiful all right let me kill this recording then within saying they moved everything around this is so disturbing