Apple 🍏 Jam
Apple 🍏 Jam
John Lennon & Yoko Ono - Double Fantasy
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In this episode of Apple Jam, we dive deep into John Lennon's final studio album, Double Fantasy, created in collaboration with Yoko Ono. Released just three weeks before Lennon's untimely passing, this album serves as a poignant reflection on love, domesticity, and the complexities of life. We explore the duality of its tracks, the interplay between John and Yoko's artistic voices, and its enduring impact on listeners and music history. Join us for an intimate conversation about the legacy of this unforgettable work.
happy new year
SPEAKER_00happy
SPEAKER_02new year we're back yeah great to be back with you
SPEAKER_00i'm
SPEAKER_02very
SPEAKER_00excited it's been so long yeah that's true it's been a long time and we apologize as well because i think it was last summer right that we recorded the last episode
SPEAKER_02that's right and before we start we should probably say that we will be doing a second half to the sergeant pepper episode but i insisted on doing that when it was warmer and sunnier because we've got this northern hemisphere winter now and Sergeant Pepper's very summery for me. Yeah, and I agree. Yeah. My name is Neil McCutcheon and this is my good friend Bernardo and we are here to talk about Beatles albums and Beatles related things. We've been going for quite a long time now and this week we're going to talk about Double Fantasy by John Lennon and Yoko Ono from 1980.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, very good record. It's been great to revisit it, because it's not one that I play very often. I don't know if it's one that you play very often.
SPEAKER_02No, it's not, but it's one I used to play a lot when I first got it. When did you first get it? Pretty soon after John got shot, so I think I had that by Christmas 1980, you know? And I played it to death. I feel like I know... every second of that album, which is a good reason. I mean, I'm glad that the stripped down one came out because it's given me, you know, that's given me a fresh lease of life when that came out 15 years ago, whatever, 14 years ago. And also like listening to it again, sent me back to the anthology and that's been great because I, again, I don't listen to that much. So that's like a real treasure trove.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Do you have the anthology? Yes, I do. Yeah, because I only have that greatest songs from the anthology called What's Upon a Time, but I actually haven't got the box set.
SPEAKER_02Well, we can do an episode on the box set sometime. I mean, it's not the kind of thing you're going to put on when... I mean, it's probably you're going to wait until the house is empty, right? Because it's notes and sketches, but it's a lovely, wonderful... thing just to sort of get into the depth of of what john was thinking and doing and and you know that's a beautiful package i mean it's not musically it's not gonna blow you away but it's it's um I would say it's essential for completists.
SPEAKER_00Well, and it's got a couple of gems as well, I would say. And you mentioned the stripped-down version of the record. I got that one when it got released, I think, in 2010. And I think that was the beginning of the raw mixes that were later released in the new kind of box sets with Imagine and Plastic Ono Band and Mind Games.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. Yes, I think you're right, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think it proved that people really liked it, and I wish Paul did the same, actually, in his box sets. I think it's such a nice thing to include.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's good, isn't it? The double fantasy is amazing, because I think it's John's strongest collection of songs since he left the Beatles. I mean, I know that John and Yoko alternate on this album but the quality of his writing although it wasn't very popular you know when it first came out it didn't get that well reviewed but I think the quality of his I think he's right on top there he's writing Beatles level stuff. It's just wonderful. And so it's wonderful to hear the less produced ones, just because they're more direct. And then they've left in some little bits of commentary and all that.
SPEAKER_00The vocals are a bit more forward as well. And they got rid of some of the reverb. So it just sounds a bit more natural.
SPEAKER_02that's right uh and and and then they they do some there's a radical version of uh every man has a woman who loves him just like completely sort of down with this sort of synth there one of the things that struck me when listening to this album um although they were obviously listening to sounds at the time and we know the b-52s and they go for this kind of new new wave sound there's not a lot of synths on there that i can hear i mean hardly any i don't know if i can hand on heart say that there's a synthesizer on that album at all?
SPEAKER_00Well, I was listening to an interview by Jack Douglas, who was the producer of the album. And apparently one of the things that Lennon said in the briefing was that he wanted for the album to sound very New York. So he wanted to have all the brass section and for it to sound very... He considered himself a New Yorker by that time. So maybe that's one of the reasons why he didn't want to include synthesizers. Maybe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, maybe, but, you know, the talking heads were there around at the time. Maybe they were. I don't know, actually, if they used synthesizers. I mean, it was the New York New Wave scene, so maybe electronica wasn't part of that. I mean, Yoko's tracks are very... kind of hourly really interesting and she's got they sound incredibly modern and actually boundary pushing for that era but again no synths so you know lots of reverbs and things like that
SPEAKER_00do you actually like joko's tracks on this album because i think that's one of the controversial topics and maybe one of the reasons why it could have done better this record and it's because um because of what you said that it's um you have a john song than a yoko song and they take turns so i don't
SPEAKER_02know
SPEAKER_00To start with, that irritated
SPEAKER_02me. Then I came around to, I mean, I liked some of the tracks straight away. I liked them moving on straight away. But, you know, more or less, I felt they were inferior at the time. Interesting that David Geffen thought that Her tracks were the equal of his. And there's the whole story about, you know, he didn't hear any of them, but just signed them, you know, because he wanted them on his label, whatever.
SPEAKER_00Fair enough. I probably would have done
SPEAKER_02the
SPEAKER_00same.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I got, I mean, I came around to some of the Yoko tracks. I like the experimentation of the first ones. I'm not so keen on the ones on side two, but... Walking on Thin Ice is one of my favourite tracks of all time. time it's definitely my favorite thing that yoko ever did i know john's on it uh and and we know that's the one he was working on on the night he got shot but i think that's just a superb superb record there's nothing bad about that
SPEAKER_00that wasn't part of the whole fantasy it was released i think as a bonus track in the 2000 version i think
SPEAKER_02that's right it wasn't on the album but you know it's the same same kind of sessions yeah um i wish it had been on the album or maybe like uh kickoff i don't know
SPEAKER_00but the album hadn't had already been released when they were still recorded was it actually on milk and honey no no
SPEAKER_02it was just a it was a standard single yeah which i got at the time and i really liked it at the time so and i think i think over the years people have come round to the yoko tracks because they're uh you know as i say more innovative and they they sound like i don't know lena lovage and like B-52s and all that and pretty new wavy and people... subsequently have been influenced by Yoko, so I think she got a raw deal at the time. How about you? Do you like her tracks?
SPEAKER_00I do. I like some of her tracks. I actually like Yes, I'm Your Angel best, which is a bit of an old-fashioned track, but that's my favorite track of Yoko's on this album. I feel the same as you. I feel like when I first got this record, I used to skip all the Yoko tracks, but once I gave them a chance, I realized that it's like having two records, really. One by John Lennon and one by Yoko Ono. and that you can enjoy both. And I think as well, she's been unfairly treated. I think that, I mean, if you watch the Get Back documentary, you can kind of realize that it wasn't Yoko who broke up the Beatles. And she kind of had that. She was famous for that back in the 90s and 2000s. And that's why probably people didn't feel very good about listening to her songs. But I think they're pretty good.
SPEAKER_02They're pretty good. And she apparently didn't want John around because she didn't want him sort of backseat driving too much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, what I like about it is the kind of the way they're arranged. Some of them seem to pair well with each other. Like, obviously, I'm losing you and I'm moving on.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, that's a really nice combination, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And one of the things about this album is, although it got criticized for being all about domestic harmony and stuff it really isn't um it's about you know it's it's obviously about a mature relationship with the ins and outs of it and um this i don't know if you saw this but on the um on the stripped down cd at the very end there's some you know little footnotes by yoko and at the end it said we made a bit of a mess of our lives didn't we I love you and that's so tragic like I feel comes across on this record that they I mean I think possibly there's a rumour that Yoko had an affair with Bermuda and John turned a blind eye to it and he'd had at least that one affair before and there's just something about they really loved each other but they also they had anger and conflict sometimes and obviously when when John's gone or when anyone's gone.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's such a tragedy, isn't it? I mean, for any person. Can you imagine losing your partner in such a violent way and be expected to move on quickly? Yeah,
SPEAKER_02and especially when... That's what struck me about listening to this album. I mean, it's obvious, but... I mean, they were coming back to life and John was so optimistic and loving New York and just kind of being an ordinary person almost in New York to whatever extent he could be. And bursting with creativity. And then just for his life to get cut short like that at that point is so tragic. And then especially you listen to Hard Times Are Over and that's so ironic, you know.
SPEAKER_00yeah going back to Yoko she never remarried after John was murdered which I always thought was interesting she still lives in the Dakota as well and yeah so I don't know I mean as you said they must have really loved each other and losing your partner that way I mean it's such a tragedy
SPEAKER_02yeah and then it looks like Yoko wished there'd been more harmony but maybe when you have such a passionate relationship it's not all about harmony
SPEAKER_00yeah
SPEAKER_02It's a very honest piece of writing, Double Fantasy. It's very good. It's not throwaway. Actually...
SPEAKER_00But it was heavily criticized for being so personal. Yeah, it was. And I just can't believe... It's the same thing with Ram. It got really badly reviewed at the time. And it wasn't until many years later that people started seeing what a good album it was. And I think it's a similar thing with Double Fantasy. Maybe before John died, it was getting very bad reviews. Then the reviews changed after he died. It actually got a Grammy, didn't it? For Best Record of the Year.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I didn't know that. I remember hearing the news reports saying that it was walking off the shelves or selling like... like hotcakes once he died. And I just think it's a very fine album. I associate it with Christmas 1980, you know, when I was only 12 and I had only just discovered Paul McCartney and just discovered the Beatles. I don't even think I was exactly sure who was John and who was George at that point, although I loved starting over, you know, but it was just on the radio. So I didn't know which one, which beat I was singing it. But I absolutely loved it. And I was singing it and kind of miming and singing and loving that song. And then, you know, it happened at that moment.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it got a Grammy for Album of the Year in 1982. A bit late. Yeah, a bit late. The other nominees were Gaucho by Steely Dan, The Dude by Quincy Jones, Breaking Away by Al Jarreau, and Mistaken Identity by Kim Carnes.
SPEAKER_02Ooh, that's the only one of those that I've heard of. You know, still no Betty Davis eyes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I didn't come across this album actually until very late because what I had at the time when I was a kid was the Lennon box set, the four CD box set.
SPEAKER_02I remember. I know you had CD4 on that.
SPEAKER_00And I had CD4 with all the John tracks. None of the Yoko tracks were there. And he had the best of Double Fantasy and Milk and Honey. That's the
SPEAKER_02one I wanted when I was young. I just thought that would have been great, you know, just a John album.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it's got such good songs milk and honey as well um but um but it's got some amazing but then when i actually discovered double fantasy and saw that it was john yoko and it kind of told the story um it became uh for me at least in my opinion it became a better album because before it felt just like um random singles and in the album it kind of tells the story a little bit so i kind of liked it
SPEAKER_02it does i think they placed the songs quite carefully thinking about that yeah
SPEAKER_00yeah i mean john definitely cared very much about this this album and and every aspect of it
SPEAKER_02yeah and before we dive in i just want to say going back to the personal songwriting i really learned from that like um sometimes a little bit about how to write songs and also how to you know how to live and be not be worried about being a bit vulnerable and everything that's what I like about the songwriting here. And I think it's a real return to form. I mean, it's as personal as Plastic Uno Band in a way, I imagine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Right. So should we start talking about the songs? Yes. So which one would you like to start off with? Well, let's start with the first single, Just Like Starting Over.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00It's like our podcast. It feels just like starting over. Yeah. Yeah. Great song. I love that song, actually. And I've learned a lot of, well, first, it feels like two songs because you've got the intro and then you've got the more rock and roll part. When I was a kid, it wasn't one of my favorite songs. It kind of felt like, I don't know, kind of old fashioned. But then as I grew older, I got to like it more and more. And I love the version in the stripped down Double Fantasy album. I like it actually better. What do you like about that one? I like it better, actually, than the one on the album because it doesn't have the reverb. But I kind of miss the backing vocals that you have in the official release.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, I mean, even the official release has got fairly sparse production, right, apart from those vocals. It's got that 50s feel and there's the bass and those guitar stabs. But it's not overproduced.
SPEAKER_00No, it isn't. It isn't at all. Something I learned from... I don't know if you ever came across the Lost Lennon tapes, which came, I think, from a radio program broadcast maybe in the 80s. And there they uncovered a lot of demos of John's and stuff. And this song actually comes from two songs that he had written. Yes. My
SPEAKER_02Life... my life yes and then there's a couple of others right and one called don't be crazy
SPEAKER_00yeah so i'll play you a little bit of my life i don't know if you've heard it before have you
SPEAKER_02heard it it's on anthology so let's be crazy
SPEAKER_00um okay first my life okay
SPEAKER_01My life, take it, it's mine to give. Take it, let me live. okay
SPEAKER_00so that's um my life with john on guitar and he also did a demo on piano which is oh okay this one
SPEAKER_01let's have a little of this thing My life, take it, it's yours. Take it, let me live with you. My life, take it, it's yours to keep. Do what you will, I dare to keep.
SPEAKER_00And Don't Be Crazy is this one.
SPEAKER_01Why don't they leave us alone?
UNKNOWNI cannot feel your empty life with you
SPEAKER_00So you can tell that that was kind of the beginning of just like starting over. Funny, if you actually listen to the piano, it reminds me of that song by the Carpenters. You know?
SPEAKER_02No, I'm not sure which one
SPEAKER_00you mean. I mean close to you. On the day that you were born, you know? Okay, maybe he had that in the back of his mind. Maybe. And then he obviously liked these songs very much, and he put them together, like Paul did a lot as well, and he came up with Just Like Starting Over. Should I play the official version? Yeah, go play a bit of that. Sorry, that's not the one. Here you go.
SPEAKER_01Our life together is so precious Together we have grown, we have grown Although our love is still special Let's take a chance and fly away somewhere alone.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, a classic. yeah and John's always spoke about that as kind of his Elvis song and at the beginning he's like hello Elvis hello buddy and all that I like that yeah and Chris from I am the egg pod messaged me we were talking about this for some reason and he said he'd also started getting into the Beatles that year but he knew them better than I did and he knew which one John was so He just said how wonderful it was to hear that voice again on a new record.
SPEAKER_00I know, because that was the first single. That was the first single since, would it be Mind Games? Is that right?
SPEAKER_02I don't
SPEAKER_00know. Or Rock and Roll was released afterwards?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Rock and Roll. So there would have been Stand By Me, I guess, was the last single. But, you know, that's not a classic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It got really bad reviews when it was first released.
SPEAKER_02I'm really surprised. I just instantly loved it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. One review from Enemy, yeah, says, let's take a trip and fly away together alone to the funny farm for a nice rest, presumably. So much for McCartney writing the slop and Lennon writing the shocking ruckus.
SPEAKER_02Oh, no, I mean, it was such the era of punk and new wave and the Beatles, I guess they didn't reach their nadir until the early 80s, until after tug of war. You know, Beatles were really out of fashion, but it had already started because, you know, they obviously weren't punk. And apart from the very early days, I guess that's the kind of rock that punk was kicking against.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's really unfair to review a song that isn't punk with that in mind. I mean, you should review it for what it is, right? And I think that Lennon and McCartney were both criticised really badly in the 70s and the 80s. And they were putting out pretty good music as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, of course. This was my first sort of Beatles record in my lifetime apart from McCartney 2 and Coming Up. So that was the first that came out while I was alive and then Starting Over was the next. So that was really... Great for me to have those records coming.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. First time I heard this song actually came from the Lennon Collection, that compilation that was released, I think, was it in 1981 or 82? Yeah, that was
SPEAKER_02huge. That was sold a lot, didn't it, at the time?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So next track.
SPEAKER_02Okay. What about... Oh, there's so many to choose from. What about I'm Losing You? Right. A bit of a bluesy number. Yep. And with the demo recorded with the members of Cheap Trick.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02on Once Upon a Time I don't really know Cheap Tricks music but I guess they were a new wave band at the time they said they'd also played it on I'm Moving On and they said we're trying to give it a plastic ono band feel and that version on Once Upon a Time on the anthology is definitely the most kind of indie rocking thing that John's on I mean it really still sounds I know this was a favourite song of John. He thought this was one of the strongest tracks. Yeah. And it really rocks. And again, on the stripped down version, you can just hear everything so well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I prefer the album version for this one, actually. Okay. But something that surprised me when I was doing research for today was that I would have thought that this song was written on the guitar because it's such a guitar song, you know? And then I came across this demo and I'll show you it.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. Interesting.
UNKNOWNOkay.
SPEAKER_01Up in some stranger's room Yeah,
SPEAKER_02interesting. I like the kind of descending chords. They're very, very Beatles-esque, isn't it? Those kind of chords. I mean, this was called Stranger's Room, wasn't it? I think so, yes. And I think it goes back... perhaps to 1978. But then, I mean, the genesis is kind of mixed up because then he said it's about a phone call to Bermuda and not being able to get from Bermuda to try and phone Yoko, I think, or
SPEAKER_00the other way around. And him getting frustrated because not being able to get a hold of her, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but that was 1980, wasn't it? That would have been 1980, yeah. he resurrected that same song. I mean, some of these songs maybe had a long genesis. It was a really creative period,
SPEAKER_00wasn't it? Yeah, but I mean, he wrote a lot of songs from 1976 until 1980, some of which were used by the Beatles later, because I think Free as a Bird and Real Love and the last one, forget the name now.
UNKNOWNYeah.
SPEAKER_00Ah, wasn't it the name of the song that was released last year? Oh, I've forgotten it too. Now and then. There you go, now and then. So
SPEAKER_02many things in that period. Yeah, I mean, that was a rich... It seemed like he was just being a house husband, but there was a lot going on creatively. Yeah,
SPEAKER_00this is the Cheap Trick version.
SPEAKER_02Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_00If it starts... There you go. It kind of feels a bit rockier than the original
SPEAKER_02version. Yeah, and you can really hear his guitar part really clearly, sounding a bit like Cold Turkey. I mean, that's got to be John, right, playing. And then there's also the solo. It's also him, you know, for sure. And then at the end, he's got...
SPEAKER_01I
SPEAKER_02know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's really cool. It's a great song.
UNKNOWNMm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02And something I read, this is from the Beatles Bible now, maybe it's from one of the Cheap Trick musicians. He says that at the end, John sings Don't Wanna Lose You. Now, it's a quote from something with exactly the same melody as something. And I didn't notice that. Ah, there you go. So listen to it again. Yoko says that she... tears up when she hears this song because it makes her feel a bit guilty.
SPEAKER_00Well, understandably. Yeah. But yeah, great song. Something I forgot to mention in the beginning is that Hugh McCracken played guitar on a lot of these tracks. Yes. And he also played on Ram.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So that's something these two albums have in common.
SPEAKER_02He gets about them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he played on everything in the 70s.
SPEAKER_02I think the section musicians on this track were just, like on this album are great. I think Earl Slick is great. And the bass player, I did look up his name because there's so many great bass lines. Tony Levin, who had played with Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Lou Reed, Joan Armour Trading, and on and on and on. And all these guys were amazing. melodic bass lines you know you can listen to any of the songs and you know it could almost be Paul the bass is really inventive
SPEAKER_00yeah this guy Hugh McCracken's greatest or most memorable guitar solo was on All By Myself by Eric Carman
SPEAKER_02oh I didn't know that was
SPEAKER_00there you go he played the slide guitar solo there wow but anyways coming back to I'm Losing You yes it's such a brilliant song um
SPEAKER_02yeah it's a great song i believe
SPEAKER_00it wasn't released as a single was it
SPEAKER_02no it wasn't the singles were a woman and starting over woman and then watching the wheels the beautiful boy wasn't a single either
SPEAKER_00which is crazy such a great song
SPEAKER_02yeah yeah
SPEAKER_00i mean there's so many to choose from
SPEAKER_02but another thing about human crack and he said about um with Dia Yoko, we might talk about that at some point, but Earl Slick had such a bad hangover that he couldn't come into the studio that day. So that's Hugh McCracken looking after everything on that track.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Yeah, I'd like to talk about Dia Yoko, actually. What do you think
SPEAKER_02of Dia Yoko?
SPEAKER_00I love that song.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Most people hate that song, and I love that song.
SPEAKER_02It's the catchiest one, isn't
SPEAKER_00it? Yeah, it's one of the catchiest ones. And it's such a lovely love song, you know? Yes. I mean, people might say that the lyrics are very predictable and the rhymes are really easy. And it says Yoko a lot, which I think puts a lot of people off. Yeah, but the melody is really, really good. And I think it's such an honest love song as well. Yeah, I think that's it. It's one of those songs I wish I'd written. oh yeah sans the yoko part of course
SPEAKER_02it's it sounds easy to write a song like that but it's not i mean the tune is so amazing that the take one is on the anthology yeah uh and right from take one it just crackles with energy and he's doing the buddy holly stuff and what um one of the other musicians um probably human reckons said you know, that he thought it was the best track, you know, because they were just larking around and having fun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you can tell that they're having fun. He did, I think, John, it might be the version on the anthology, he did a little acoustic video from Bermuda where he's wearing like a trucker's hat. Oh, I haven't seen that. He plays on an acoustic guitar. He's got like a long beard and long hair. I'll send you the link. It's pretty
SPEAKER_02good. Yeah. Is that on... Acoustic. It's
SPEAKER_00him on acoustic. I don't know if it's the same version. It might be the same version. Okay. The one I had was from the Lost Lennon tapes, and it's this one. It might well be the same version.
UNKNOWNOkay.
SPEAKER_01Oh, buggy or lugs, you idiot.
SPEAKER_02There you go. You know, one of the things that comes across listening to any of the acoustic demos is, well, he had really good chord sequence. I don't know if he's lifting them or he's generating them himself, but very good chord sequences. And also, even though he's playing guitar in a rough way sometimes, you can hear a lot of the arrangement of the finish song in there. So I get that. He does a lot of runs, not so much here, but he does a lot of runs and bass runs and little accompaniments where you think he's hearing that and he knows that in the studio he's going to assign that to another instrument or something. So he's, you know, these aren't just sketches. He's got a very good idea of how they're going to sound.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. In this particular demo, you can hear that in the guitar. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, um, it was, I think it was, it was, um, Jack Douglas who said that when he received all the tapes, he thought that they were so well made that they hit, that's what they should put out. Um, I mean, if they'd been well recorded, I mean, I'm sure that there would be material that you could definitely put out, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I mean, most of it has been put out
SPEAKER_00now. Well, but it's not been very well recorded. Surely with AI now they're going to clean everything and they're going to be re-releasing things for the next 20 years. You
SPEAKER_02would think so, but it just has to be done quite carefully with AI because the AI can... develop a mind of its own and uh you know so you know it's important to do those things tastefully i'm sure they will be done
SPEAKER_00yeah but like they did with the get back sessions i mean surely they can um separate the vocals and the guitars and then and then fix them up and then put them back together um yeah i don't know whether that would be something interesting or not but I'd hear it. I mean, if it was released, I would buy it.
SPEAKER_02It'd be interesting for fans. I mean, so far I've heard some amazing Beatles AI stuff and some, yeah, less good stuff. It depends how careful you want to be, I think. And, you know, there's another episode we can do one day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the Beatles and AI. But yes, anyways, coming back to Dear Yoko, beautiful song. I love it. The released version has a completely different vibe And I'll play a bit of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I miss you.
SPEAKER_00Even if it's just one night, I miss you and I don't feel right. Those are the rhymes he gets criticized for, but I love it.
SPEAKER_02No, it's great. And, you know, to come up with a melody like that, I mean, there's nothing like that on Walls and Bridges, right? Maybe number nine. And Mind Games has got some terrific melodies, but not that good. I mean, that is just, again, like you said, it would be nice to have written that. And also the bits at the end are funny. Well, they talk about selling a cow because in 78 or 79, for some reason, John and Yoko sold a cow. I can't remember the story behind that. And then in the stripped-down version, he actually kind of reads out what may be a real postcard that he wrote Yoko from Bermuda. That's really funny as well. It's a bit of comedy. You know that one?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But
SPEAKER_00yeah, great album. Should we talk about a Yoko song? Sure. Which one? Whichever you can choose it. Whichever you like.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, let me just go back to Walking on Thin Ice. Okay. I mean, I could also talk about it moving on. But Walking on Thin Ice is just a very simple idea. it doesn't use synths as far as I know the sound effects the reverbs are great I think it's got an atmosphere all its own I love when it goes into the spoken word bit I love the kind of chanting ice ice ice I don't always like Yoko's kind of, when she decides to go into that very high register and she's famous for all the screaming that she used to do. But it really works here. And yeah, I just think that's so good. Let
SPEAKER_00me play a bit of it. Go on.
UNKNOWNOkay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a great track. It's definitely very 80s.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and one thing I like about that are the kind of the very subtle kind of psychedelic noises that come dripping in from behind. It reminds me of kind of Tomorrow Never Knows. I mean, I'm a sucker for that. And then, of course, John plays this huge noise guitar on it. So, yeah, on the last day of his life, sadly, but he's getting into it. It's different from Cold Turkey, but it's a similar inspiration that is just... noise and i'm really a fan of that as well so yeah that's for me that's a perfect joker track
SPEAKER_00yeah which one the lyrics are pretty good um i wonder well i i suppose john didn't have anything to do with joko's lyrics um
SPEAKER_02because i simple but i always liked you know uh you know the there was a girl And she decided to go out to the lake, and the lake is as big as the ocean. I just liked all that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's really nice. I think she can write pretty good lyrics. In fact, wasn't Imagine based on something she'd written?
SPEAKER_02Yes,
SPEAKER_00it's definitely
SPEAKER_02based on... On Grapefruit, was it? Yes. What's one of your favorite Yoko tracks?
SPEAKER_00Well, my favorite Yoko track is Yes, I'm Your Angel. which is um a song that has it sounds pretty old-fashioned it reminds me of paul's kind of 20s um songs that he does in some of his albums like honey pie or you gave me the answer
SPEAKER_02yeah deliberately so yeah i don't sorry Oh, I think so. Yeah, I definitely think it's a kind of bad speech. And it reminds me a little bit of Marilyn Monroe, you know, I want to be loved by
SPEAKER_00you. A little bit like that. Yeah, it's nice. And there is a line that I really like when she goes, yes, I'm so pretty. And you can hear John whistling in the background. So I kind of like the vibe of the song. I'll play a bit of
SPEAKER_01it.
SPEAKER_00Cool.
SPEAKER_02There you go. I love this going into the nightclub.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's great.
SPEAKER_01So there you
SPEAKER_00go, that's my favorite Yoko song of all time ah
SPEAKER_02it's cute it's really
SPEAKER_00cute yeah it's a cute song
SPEAKER_02yeah um i like this those sound effects i didn't i didn't know if the sound effects at the beginning went with watching the wheels or if they went with that but so clearly with that right because they're going on the street then they go into the nightclub
SPEAKER_00yeah so it makes sense and it's the type of music you would have heard i guess in the nightclub in the 30s or 40s um yeah so yeah so it's so i really like that song and it just makes me feel like she was so in love with john that um because yeah so so there you go yeah um next should we go back to john yeah
SPEAKER_02so one that we have to talk about is woman because of the connection with the Beatles, and it's just astonishing, right? I mean, it's probably, somebody was saying it's the slickest produced song that John Devon has ever done. I mean, I kind of didn't notice that, but then I went back and listened to it. They worked really hard on it. Again, this is one where the acoustic demo shows all the contours of what he was going to give to the other guitars and everything, and the little runs there and it's supposed to be about all women your sister your mother your partner and it's just a triumph it's like this could I know that he said it was very beatly and I think he felt a bit guilty because it was beatly but yeah this could be a beatle it's an equal of any beatle song it's fantastic I think I love it
SPEAKER_00yeah there had been a beatle song well Paul wrote a song called Woman during the Beatles time, which he gave to Peter and Gordon. And the lyric went like, woman, do you love me? Woman, if you need me, then believe me, I need you to be my woman. It's got a very different vibe, but what I mean is that there had already been a song written by one of them called
SPEAKER_02Woman. Something that's interesting here is you can hear on the stripped-down version, you know with the Beatles song Girl, there's the intake of breath? He does that on the stripped-down version. Yeah, yeah, because he thought this was a kind of riposte, maybe the wrong word, but kind of the grown-up version of Girl.
SPEAKER_00Fair enough, it is. And you can tell how John had changed because he was pretty macho during the Beatles times and for him to write a song which is the complete opposite of that.
SPEAKER_02Oh, this is 180 from something like Run For Your Life, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. He wrote shocking lyrics, or you can't do that. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02that's right.
SPEAKER_00So yes, this is the complete opposite of that. It's difficult to believe the same person wrote those songs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, there you go, age. And in the UK, this was the third number one in a row because starting over was number one. Actually, there was one week... where something else got to number one, a Christmas novelty song. And then Imagine was number one for a long time, and then Woman was number one. So John Lennon was probably number one altogether for about eight or nine weeks at that time. There was a lot of love for him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You said that Woman is the most Beatles song. That's something that really bothers me. Why can't he write Beatles songs if he was one of the songwriters of the Beatles? It's the
SPEAKER_02same
SPEAKER_00with
SPEAKER_02Paul. True, yeah, exactly. I think they wanted to step out of the shadow of the Beatles, but I wouldn't. But that would be
SPEAKER_00like stepping out of the shadow of yourself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, just do it. I think perhaps there was a pressure to... They were still quite... young men at 40, right? So there's still, there's a pressure to be inventive and all that. Later you can say, well, whatever, you know, life begins at 40. You can go and parody yourself as
SPEAKER_00much as you want. I guess also 40-year-old people were older in 1980 than 40-year-old people now, if you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, I thought they were old as the hills, you know, John and Paul. I thought they were pretty old,
SPEAKER_00yeah. I don't think Paul thought that he'd be playing Love Me Do at 81 or 82.
SPEAKER_02No, it's not incredible, let alone in spite of all the danger, right? Yeah, yeah. Earl Slick said that this song was a little bit like here, there and everywhere. John said he wanted an early 60s pre-Beatles feel almost, but in other places he refers to it like early Motown Beatles circa 1964 ballad. I mean... To me, it's not exactly a parody. I mean, maybe there's a good point there about here, there and everywhere, but it's not an imitation of a Beatles song. It's definitely its own original thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. Something I like about this song, which isn't very common in other Lennon songs, especially during his solo career, is the modulation. Like, the song goes up, I think, yeah, there is a key change towards the end that goes up, like, I think, half a step. And I think it's really good. It kind of brings the song together. Like, it definitely wouldn't have been the same if he had stayed in the same key. And it's something that John didn't do very much as a solo artist.
SPEAKER_02No, that's really, you're right, that's a really nice touch. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Should I play a bit of it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah,
SPEAKER_00play a bit of
SPEAKER_02it.
SPEAKER_01My mixed emotions and my thoughtlessness After all, I'm forever in your debt And woman, I will try to express My inner feelings and thankfulness For sure
SPEAKER_00I love the harmony
SPEAKER_02there. The harmonies are great. And they worked on them because they removed, I think it was even more, had more banks of harmonies before and they removed some of them. And one of them ended up being, you know, John, a couple of the girls and Eric Troyer, one of the backing singers. So it's actually stripped down as it is, but the harmonies are perfect.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's brilliant. That's the
SPEAKER_02kind of song I associate with the Dakota and their lives in the Dakota and all that, I think, most of all. Because, you know, there was a video of them strolling in Central Park, and I was there recently at the end of last year.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're just going to ask you to tell us a little bit about going to the Dakota and to Central Park, that bit. Is it the Imagine? There's a video just across the street, right?
UNKNOWNYes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so imagine, I guess that is round about where they used to go for walks. It's only five minutes away, really, across the street and maybe less. It's just the part of Central Park closest to the Dakota. And it looks like there were always people gathered around there busking and all that and some people selling little, you know, works of art and stuff. But, you know, you can go walking around there and you can sense that they really thought that was their back garden. And the Dakota itself is a very baronial, gothic, really kind of weird-looking building. But I guess once it's home, it's home. You know, it's got security guards on the outside. Yeah. Yeah, it's quite forbidding. But, you know, ironically, it looks very secure now. Right, yeah, well. Did you know that Rosemary's Baby, the film, was also filmed there? No, I didn't know. It was like one of the best horror films ever. Don't watch it if you're going to get bad dreams. But that was filmed in the Dakota a few years earlier, about 1969, 1970, I think.
SPEAKER_00Who lives in the Dakota currently apart from your corner? I mean, do you know any other celebrities that live there?
SPEAKER_02Is it a hotel? I mean, the Dakota is usually a hotel, isn't it? Or maybe it's just an apartment block.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I have no idea, actually. I think it's an apartment block.
SPEAKER_02Oh, right, because I just assumed the Dakota's a hotel, so I just rented the suite of rooms. I think they had two apartments, actually. I don't know who lives there. If you wanted to be anonymous, I guess, and secure, it's kind of a good place to live.
SPEAKER_00If you want to be anonymous, let's move to New York right across Central Park.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, ironically, one of the quotations I remember from John's last interview, the famous Radio 1 interview with Andy Peebles on the 6th of December 1980, the one that they kept playing on the news and it was so ironic because it's just, you know, I can go right out of here and I can go to a restaurant. You want to know how great that is? I mean, people recognize you, but they won't, They might say hi, but they won't bug you. And somebody shot him, right, two days later. But he was basically just saying, and you can see in some of those photos from 1980 that he was becoming a citizen of New York.
SPEAKER_00He was becoming a true New Yorker, yes.
SPEAKER_02And I felt very comfortable and relaxed there. I mean, after all the madness of Beatlemania, it's wonderful to be able to go to a restaurant and not be bothered.
SPEAKER_00Definitely. Paul Simon lives there. Just checking online.
SPEAKER_02Oh, in the Dakota?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, wow. Okay. I should have said hi.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Should have waited outside until he showed up. Another
SPEAKER_02great songwriter.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay. So... Let's see which song... We're nearly done. We're nearly done. We can't talk about Double Fantasy and not talk about Watching the Wheels and Beautiful Boy.
SPEAKER_02And Beautiful Boy, so I think we've got to do both of those, yeah. And that means we're missing our clean-up time like all the other compilations. But that's a decent song as well. You know, it gets unfairly overlooked.
SPEAKER_00That's true, that's true. But the thing is that if you have to leave one song out...
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's what shows you the quality of the writing on this thing, right? Yeah. So, Beautiful Boy, what's the connection with Paul?
SPEAKER_00From what I know, he... mentioned this as being one of his favorite songs by john on desert island discs is that right
SPEAKER_02that's right that's the one yeah yeah that's lovely isn't it yeah so he i think he picked it as his at the end of desert island this which is still going i heard it today uh but the at the end they they offer you you know one record and i think the one that he picked was beautiful boy because it's just very touching and moving in all its versions you've got a daughter so you would kind of understand this
SPEAKER_00yeah definitely the feeling yes for sure
SPEAKER_02yeah
SPEAKER_00yeah um yes um that interview with paul i think you can find it online you can see him tearing up as um they start playing beautiful boy
SPEAKER_02wow oh it's it's fantastic here's a question for you and that this is always as an english teacher i don't know the answer to this Did John give this to the language or did it exist already? Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. So is that a 70s mantra kind of thing, a words of wisdom, you know, maxim, or did he invent that?
SPEAKER_00Well, from the Wikipedia article, actually, it says that that line comes from a Reader's Digest article. It was written by Alan Saunders.
SPEAKER_02Okay, and it comes from before 1980.
SPEAKER_00From 1957.
SPEAKER_02Oh, damn. Because I always kind of hoped that this would be John's gift to the English language. Oh, I'm so sorry I told you this. It's a true... thing about life and it's a great you know that's a very nice thing to put into a song obviously the every day in every way it's getting better and better is a little 70s mantra that people that was part of the kind of human positivity movement or something I think it's connected
SPEAKER_00with yeah he he his original line was life is what happens to us while we're making other plans okay and John modified it slightly yeah
SPEAKER_02yeah it's a very happy song right a very happy song he sounds content and all that plastic ono band angst has just gone away i don't know i think he i think he was a very good parent to sean that's my feeling and that maybe those were some of the best years of his life i hope so
SPEAKER_00yeah not not a great parent to julian I wouldn't say.
SPEAKER_02No, no, not really.
SPEAKER_00Not even during those days.
SPEAKER_02No, did they, they got reconciled a little bit or is Julian still carrying some sadness about
SPEAKER_00that? I've seen a couple of interviews of his online and I think he's still carrying a bit of bad feelings towards his childhood, but it's normal. I mean, I can, I imagine like feeling like the, he felt that he must've felt left out.
UNKNOWNYeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah,
SPEAKER_02yeah. But as you said... Sean certainly got showered with love.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but as you said about this song, and it's similar to Dear Yoko or Just Like Starting Over, they're such honest lyrics. And you can tell that that's what he was feeling. And they're very simple, but they're so well-crafted, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yes. And the musicianship, I admire that here as well. If you listen to the bass, it's really, I mean, clever, I mean... Paul would have been happy to have done a bass line like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's a very simple song. I think most of it is in the key of D, isn't it? So it's a pretty simple song to play. But the arrangement makes it so complex, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then the beautiful sound effects that they added and the steel drum. You know, the Jamaicans or maybe
SPEAKER_00Bermudans. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. You said a Bermuda vibe. There, so it's
SPEAKER_02nice. Yeah, it's a beautiful piece of
SPEAKER_00music. Yeah, it's great. I'll play a bit of it. Should I play a bit of the stripped-down version?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a really nice one.
SPEAKER_00One second. Let me just find it. Here you go. Here it
SPEAKER_01is. I'll do something a little more slow. Sit down there. Because your eyes have no fear The monster's gone, he's on the run And your daddy's here Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful boy yeah it's
SPEAKER_00beautiful
SPEAKER_02hmm i wonder who wrote the um steel drum part actually because it's really effective maybe they're just the musicians themselves really nice
SPEAKER_00i like that little touch he does um where he goes um down on out on the ocean
SPEAKER_02oh yeah that's great oh that's great that's a lovely uh middle eight
SPEAKER_00yeah yeah yeah um and watching the wheels the other song we can't ignore
SPEAKER_02watching the wheels is musically uh A little like Imagine, right? I mean, they take it in a different direction, but isn't it CFCF? Anyway, it's the same relationship.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, it's very similar. And this is
SPEAKER_02a song about his...
SPEAKER_00Go on.
SPEAKER_02No, no, I'm done. Please. It's a song about his house husband-ness. Again, sounds very happy. Originally comes from two... A demo is called Emotional Wreck, and I'm crazy, which is funny because when you listen to the track, it's so at peace with itself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the actual demo I have of this song is called Memories.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'll play a bit of it very quickly.
SPEAKER_01So
SPEAKER_00it kind of has the tune of Grow Old With Me at the same time.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah, yeah. But he took the words from that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But yes, as you said, it's a song about his years as a house husband, him accepting that and other people not accepting that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Do you know about, there's a wonderful story about the street musician? No,
SPEAKER_00I don't know the
SPEAKER_02story,
SPEAKER_00no.
SPEAKER_02So again, I think this is from the Beatles Bible. So there's a hammer dulcimer in that, which is a kind of a keyboard instrument played by Matthew Cunningham. A street musician from New York's Greenwich Village. And Jack Douglas had heard him play. And I don't know whose idea it was to bring him in. But anyway, this guy had long hair and all that. And he was a real hippie. And he came into the studio and did his part. Apparently this is true, but don't take it from me. And then they said, hello, hi, my name's Matthew, who are you? Oh, my name's John. But he didn't know who it was. I don't know, maybe because he just didn't follow the media. Or
SPEAKER_00maybe he just wouldn't have expected to see John Lennon there.
SPEAKER_02Perhaps. So, I mean, he literally did the session and he didn't know who it was. But, you know, I was listening to an interview this morning with Laurie Anderson and she got together with Lou Reed later in her life and she lived in New York and didn't know who Lou Reed was. So, I mean, I think New York's just the kind of city where you live in your own world and, you know, you know some people. I mean, Yoko didn't know who John was famously, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. That's a great story. I wonder where that guy is now.
SPEAKER_02Oh, he's probably not with us. Yeah, yeah. Maybe he is. If you're listening, Matthew, you can get in touch.
SPEAKER_00We'd love to interview you so you can tell us the story. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02yeah. So they... When I listened to the first demo of this anthology, again, I just loved listening to the kind of the facility of the chord changes. I just love to hear, you can hear very clearly the writing, and it's very good writing, and as a sort of ex-songwriter, so I love to have that back again, that ability that he was practicing again bringing back these lovely chord sequences again you know it's just a typical of this album that he's this desire to write and express himself is just bursting out of him
SPEAKER_00yeah I think I have that acoustic version you're talking about let me see if it's this one one second
SPEAKER_01Is that the one you
SPEAKER_00meant? Yeah, here it goes
SPEAKER_02now,
SPEAKER_01listen. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02it's those changes and then in the chorus.
SPEAKER_01I
SPEAKER_00know, it's brilliant, isn't
SPEAKER_01it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, it starts off like Imagine, just straight. one to four, and then it goes and it follows its own momentum. And it just has such a flow to it. It's lovely. John said, watching the wheels, the whole universe is a wheel, right? Wheels go round and round. They're my own wheels, mainly. But, you know, watching myself is like watching everybody else. And I watch myself through my child, too. that's nice and somebody also said like it's literally watching the wheels like from the Dakota building watching the wheels outside
SPEAKER_00yeah it is true actually when you see your kids as well and you see and then you kind of see your life it's like watching the wheels you see how they grow older and you grow older as well it's a good observation
SPEAKER_02lovely thought that's a nice place to finish isn't
SPEAKER_00it yeah it's been a lot of fun actually we've gone over the hour haven't we
SPEAKER_02It was really good fun to do that album. It was great fun to be doing it with you again and also sent me back to the official recordings and some of the other versions. And that was a real pleasure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was great to go back to this as well. I've got so many copies of this album as well because I've got the 2010 vinyl. I've got one from the 80s as well in really bad shape that I picked up in Costa Rica a long time ago. I've got the CD that was released in the 80s. I think it must have been released in 82. Right. The 2010 one. And I had to buy it again because the strip... version didn't come in the box set for some reason
SPEAKER_02ah yeah well I did something similar so I bought the stripped down version I then put it in the box set and I gave the version in the box set to my friend who didn't have it because The stripped-down version came with the
SPEAKER_00original version as well, so it's crazy, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I just replaced that in the box set and gave somebody else, my friend Steve, I gave him Double Fancy. The other version I've got is the 2000 and whatever, 2001 maybe, the one with Walking on Thin Ice and a lovely song called Help Me to Help Myself.
SPEAKER_00That's the only version I haven't got.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yeah, that's worth hunting down, because I think for any characters out there, it's worth getting that, and Walls and Bridges and Mind Games in those versions, because they're just different mixes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and they sound pretty good too, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I'm not an expert. I wouldn't know about brick walling. That's the time of brick walling, so you have to be careful about that. But, you know, Help Me to Help Myself is a lovely song. It's a little bit, you know, religious, but, you know, it's a lovely melody and, you know, sits well with stuff like Free as a Bird and all those other ones he was
SPEAKER_00writing. Yeah, just I think they were mixed by Peter Cobbin, the same guy who remixed the Yellow Submarine Blue soundtrack, the song track.
SPEAKER_02I'd like to think so. I
SPEAKER_00think he did the Lennon early 2000 releases as well.
SPEAKER_02Because I would trust him. I don't have all of those releases, but I got some of them. I haven't got Imagine and I haven't got Plastic Going Over from those.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't think I have any of his, actually, and I'd like to. I just
SPEAKER_02thought... Yeah, you can find them here and there. They're not that expensive. They come up and, you know, they're good mixes. Of course, everything's being ultimately mixed now, so maybe they'll just be unnecessary.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it's always nice to go back to those old mixes as well because, I mean, they have the... they're how Lennon intended for those records to sound I guess yeah I would
SPEAKER_02like to yeah I'd like to have the record actually I don't have the record it's one I might play on vinyl one day it'd be nice to have an original you know like a US pressing
SPEAKER_00yeah Anyway, thank you very much for listening, everyone. We're back. Hopefully not in a year. We'll be releasing our next episode.
SPEAKER_02We'll have another one coming for you very soon. Yes, we promise. Bye for now. Bye.