Episode 51: Can we teach our children to be resilient and develop a high self-esteem? with Dr Joan Rosenberg

On today's episode of Ask Dr Jessica, I am thrilled to have as my guest Dr. Joan Rosenberg.  In this episode we discuss how to raise our children with resilience, self-esteem, and how to help guide them through disappointment.  We also talk about it is ultimately helpful to learn to "sit with" unpleasant feelings. This conversation is not to be missed!

Bestselling author, consultant, master clinician, and media host, Dr. Joan Rosenberg is a cutting-edge psychologist who is known as an innovative thinker, acclaimed speaker, and trainer. As a three-time TEDx speaker and member of the Association of Transformational Leaders, she has been recognized for her thought leadership and influence on personal development.

A California-licensed psychologist, Dr. Rosenberg speaks on how to build confidence, emotional strength, resilience; achieving emotional, conversational, and relationship mastery; integrating neuroscience and psychotherapy, and suicide prevention. She is the author of 90 Seconds to a Life You Love: How to Master Your Difficult Feelings to Cultivate Lasting Confidence, Resilience, and Authenticity.

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children.  Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner. 

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only.  She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals.  If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Your Child is Normal is the trusted podcast for parents, pediatricians, and child health experts who want smart, nuanced conversations about raising healthy, resilient kids. Hosted by Dr. Jessica Hochman — a board-certified practicing pediatrician — the show combines evidence-based medicine, expert interviews, and real-world parenting advice to help listeners navigate everything from sleep struggles to mental health, nutrition, screen time, and more.

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only.  She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals.  If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

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Welcome to Ask Dr. Jessica I'm your host and paediatrician Dr. Jessica Hochman. In this podcast. My goal is to interview experts about various paediatric topics, so that I can provide parents and caregivers with helpful medical information. today's podcast will discuss how to help our children develop a high self esteem, and also how to help them move through uncomfortable emotions. My guest today I'm very proud to introduce is Dr. Joan Rosenberg, and she is a true gem in every sense of the word. She is brilliant, thought provoking and compassionate. After listening, you will understand why Dr. Rosenberg is an accomplished writer, speaker, and why her three TED talks have been viewed millions of times. I feel so fortunate to have her on today's podcast. Hi, welcome Joan Rosenberg, thank you so much for joining me on the Ask Dr. Jessica podcast. Well, it's a treat to be here. It's a real pleasure to join you. I've been super excited to have this conversation with you. I've really, really been looking forward to it. I know I met you at a conference not that long ago. And the advice that you gave me Believe it or not, has actually changed the way I think about things. So I'm really excited to have you on. Oh, awesome. I can't wait to hear the results. So cool. Yeah, you told me we talked about how to accept compliments. And I've been really trying hard to accept compliments and sites since I talked to you. Wonderful. And how has it changed? So we'll just start with you. I'll do the interview here. So how does it How does it you know, we talked about how how we talk about what your research is, we can get into this, but about feelings and how to handle unpleasant feelings. And I would say that for myself, taking compliments, brings up unpleasant feelings. And so I'm really trying hard to accept them and take them in and see how that makes me feel so awesome. Awesome. Thank you, we can wander back to it. We can. Okay, so first, let's talk about, you know, the work that you do the book that you wrote, I think it's a really awesome title. You're the author of 90 seconds to a life you love. Can you talk about that book and how you came up with it and what it's about? Sure, the subtitle will actually explain more of what it's about. And the subtitle is how to master your difficult feelings to cultivate lasting confidence, resilience and authenticity. And really, it's an outgrowth, I would say of kind of two big questions in my life. I started out super shy, introverted, as shyness usually is sensitive, and I was bullied, I didn't feel like I fit in didn't feel like I belonged. And it was kind of a messy start, if you will. And I would look over my peers, and you know what they were laughing and together, and they just seem to like be at peace with themselves or having such a great time. And it was like, I want what they have. And I wasn't having what they had. And so really, the first question I started to wrestle with in my own life was, how is it that somebody develops confidence? So that that question, really, whether it was conscious or not subconscious to me at different times, really probably drove a lot of my work. And as I got into my professional work as a psychologist, it kind of that question kept percolating, because I knew the people I was working with also needed to have confidence. But it was like, I didn't know what to tell them what to do, or how to do it. And so that persisted because I wanted to be able to tell them, It's like there really is a path and really the 90 seconds book is the how to, and and then that's the second question that emerged for me was what made it so difficult for people to deal with unpleasant feelings. Because as much as I saw that people's thinking could get in their way. And it does, I also realised that when someone didn't feel like they could handle unpleasant feelings, then they also didn't really feel very capable of handling life. And whatever life would dish out or expose them to so so the whole focus on unpleasant feelings was central to what I was doing. And then it turned out as more time went on, I realised that, for me, one's ability to experience and move through unpleasant feelings actually became the foundation of confidence. It's so interesting, what you're saying. I mean, I think there's so much to unpack in, in the sentences that you've delivered already. A couple of things that come to mind. One is that idea of confidence. When I was a kid, my mom was so interested in raising confident children. She was not a confident child. And she really, really wanted us to have confidence she enrolled us in in, you know, ballet she had, she had us take confident classes about how to speak and how to have manners. She really wanted us to go through life with more ease and the ability to talk. And so I think that's something that a lot of parents relate to, we want to have confident kids, we see that confidence relates to success in life and ease, you know, with social situations. What do you advise to parents? Like? Do you think my mom's approach was was a viable approach? Yes, actually it is. But I would weave in a few different things along with what she did with you. So yeah, that's a, that actually is a great way to do it, you know, I would, I would highlight Jessica, probably about five major things. And that is that one has to do with experiencing and moving through unpleasant feelings. That's the foundation. So let's go with what your mom had you do if you were doing ballet, which is certainly a tedious challenge, right, and, or any other kind of sports thing or athletic thing, or she was having you be up in front of groups of kids to speak, then she was already on track with, with what it takes to develop confidence. So let me weave three things together, right there. One is that you were doing an activity that you were trying to develop some measure of expertise or mastery yet. But to do that, it requires perseverance. And the thing that I would have a parent understand is that it's not that you have confident and then you go do the thing. You actually go do the thing. struggle with it. And the more you're willing to persevere and deal with the unpleasant feelings. So this is how it weaves together, the disappointment, the frustration, the embarrassment, whatever it is, you know, getting up doing a piano recital, or whatever it was like you that didn't go so well, do you get embarrassed, but you stay the course. But it's so it's the combination of taking the action and dealing with the unpleasant feelings that may be there, and continuing to persevere regardless, that actually builds the confidence. And the same is true with speaking up. So if you were in positions where your mother had you up in front of a group, and you had to perform in some way or speak in some way, is the same as true, it's not that you're confident, and then you speak. In fact, it's as you speak, and through speaking, you develop the confidence, so that I want parents to understand that kids need to be engaged in activities, that where they have to learn to tolerate frustration, and disappointment, and persevere regardless, that's what develops the confidence, it's those three, those are the two, the three top things so far, it's it's being able to experience and move through unpleasant feelings. It's taking action, and dealing with whatever feelings come about based on the actions. And it's speaking, and dealing with the emotional outcome of that as well. So those are the top three things for for anyone to learn confidence, that resonates so much with me, because when you think about kids, for example, shy children, a lot of parents, our instincts are to lean into their shyness, okay, you don't you don't want to speak in front of a crowd. You don't want to be in the school play because you're shy. And we give them a pass for it. But it sounds like from what you're saying. To be more helpful for our child's confidence will be to lean into the opposite emotion. Absolutely. It's to encourage, it's to encourage the child to get involved regardless. I mean, I was sent to summer camp. And the truth was, I flourished. But I was again, you know, did I still get experienced bullying and other kinds of Yeah, but overall, I actually flourished in that kind of a setting and was, could come out of myself in a certain way. But that was a that was a growing experience. What did I initially want to go? No, I don't think I don't think I did, or I wasn't sure but I might, you know, it was there was a push for me to go do it. And and that makes the difference. So the key here is incur even if it's a shy child, encourage the child to go take the risk, and that explain to the child that you're likely to bump up against stuff. That's hard. I like to say Brian Tracy is a longtime personal development, personal development trainer. He likes to say people fail their way to success. And I like to say that people disappoint their way to success. So just understand, it's like built in for the child that you're going to, you're going to hit moments where you're gonna fall down, you're gonna scrape your knees you're gonna cry, you're not going to want to go on you're gonna go I've had enough and, and I'm going to tell you, we're going to build in those times. times to this whole journey. But the key is that you stand up one more time after you fell down, you just stand up one more time. And you keep going. And it's it's the way. So for me, it would be preemptively helping the child understand what what might happen, build it in and they go, well, then you're right on the journey if you fell down. I think so many parents, you know, their instinct is to be protected. We don't want to see your kids get hurt, we want to, you know, coddle them, we want to, we want, we don't want to see them get hurt. But I think that's so helpful to think of it as this disappointment is actually going to fuel them for success in the future. Absolutely. And every aspect of life, whether it's in a work position, whether it's in friendship, whether it's in an intimate relationship, the better able you are to handle the undesired emotional outcome, the stronger you are in life, what I think is so interesting is with children how, or I guess human beings were also different, the same bad event can happen to the same person, and we can respond to it so differently, some can take that bad. You know, like, let's say, for example, you don't do well on a test. And so some kids may say, I'm so discouraged, I'm just not going to try. Whereas other kids may take that information and try harder the next time. How do you recommend, you know, building that, that sense of resilience in kids? Well, again, a bottom line, help them handle the emotional outcome. And help them understand that that most things in life that we get good at or that that that are bigger and more important, usually demand work, and effort. And again, same thing, that effort is going to involve times when we're frustrated, we want to stop. And And again, a colleague of mine loves to say that, that you've got to see the frustration as a test of your commitment to what you want. So other kinds of things that are have to do with building resilience have to do with helping a child, think about the kinds of things that will help them be stronger. So I like to, for instance, one of the one of the attitudes i So for me, let me say two things around this one has to do with helping children hold attitudes and beliefs that can help sustain them. So one of the one of the things you can tell a child is, let's even early in life, let you know every experience you go through, the goal is for you to learn something from it. So you know what, you have a difficult argument with your best friend, let's see what you can learn from that. You didn't do so well on such and such exam, or the project you turned in? What can you learn from that? So that every light so that the child starts to adopt the attitude? Well, you know, every life experience, I can learn from an example to what you're saying, as you're, as you're talking, I'm thinking about this year, my daughter who's 11, she ran for student body at her school. And to be honest, the girl that she was running against is more popular in school and, and I sort of knew that she wasn't going to win. But I wanted to encourage her because I didn't want to, you know, she had the confidence to get out there and run for office. And I was scared because I didn't want to see her feel hurt if she lost. And I must say to her testament, she she didn't win. But she she was sad when it was over. I think I saw, you know, some disappointment for a few hours. And then to her credit, she moved on. And I think as a parent that was really helpful for me to see that she could, you know, I don't want to say fail, but she could have disappointment. And she recovered and she was okay. And she moved forward. Exactly. And that's that's gonna build up for her. Those Those experience we accrue those experiences, they don't go away. Right. So that so that another one is that, gee, you've been through some hard stuff before. You can take what you your ability to go through that hard stuff before you can apply it to right now. Right. So her loss for the position the student council position is, is fuel for the next thing. It's like you want you know what you want, and you were courageous. You took a big risk I cheered you on. The more important thing is that you went after it. You didn't get it, you kept going. So let's how are we going to apply what you did there to the next thing? Yes, absolutely. So so there's attitudes and beliefs you can help children foster as a parent and the other is that that you can encourage children to come up with their you can supply them with the questions or you can encourage them to come up with their own Questions that also foster resilience? So, the so for instance, going through, you know, difficult couple of years, one of my questions was, how can I use what I'm going through right now to bring out the best in me? So a child could ask a similar question. How can I how can I use this conflict with my best friend? To help me be a kinder, gentler person? I don't know you can make up whatever question you want to make up. But then what is happening is your you the parent, and probably the child is helping the child lean into even better aspects of themselves. I think parents like we remember our own hurt and disappointment and unpleasant feelings. And I think that's what makes it so tricky. Like my daughter starting junior high school in the fall, and I can't help but feel for her already. Because I remember, you know, being teased and not fitting in. And honestly, I used to embarrass myself, but I used to prefer to talk to teachers at lunch. Rather than spend time with my peers. I always, I mean, very frequently, I was doing that lunch, talk to teachers, I just felt more comfortable than racing with the girls in junior high. And so I'm trying to figure out as a parent, how to protect her, but I know it's something that she has to just go through. Well, what you can do is you can talk to her about what it might be like, but not not overvalue what you went through, okay? So it's so it's like, let's, you know, let's, let's look at the year, let's the, our let's look at these next few years, and what they might look like. So that so that if some crummy stuff happens, this is the crummy stuff we can expect, and how would you like to handle it if it occurs, and then that's look at the stuff that you'd really love to have happen. And how are we going to help you do more of what you would love to have in terms of how you want to make it through junior high, or middle school, or whatever it's called at this point, which is what it's called anymore how it's so so. So it's, it would be it would be talking about the whole continuum of possibilities, mentioning the ones you don't want, and giving enough thought to problem solve it, but not to overvalue it. And then to put more focus on what she would dream about and what she would love to see happen either in year one, year two, year three, or whatever it might be. Or if she looks at the whole scope of the three years, how what she might like that to look like, does she want to become a leader in her in her school does she want to be involved in certain activities does she want to develop certain skills does. So you can do a lot of things that are kind of forecasting, if you will, and in are envisioning and help her step into the what she's envisioning the vet again, same thing, you still want them to have the skills to handle the frustrations and the disappointments along the way. The the other that which is super important that you brought up, Jessica is that sometimes, sometimes parents haven't worked out their own stuff. Yes, for lack of a better professional term. They haven't worked out their own emotional baggage or their own emotional stuff. I think that's true, we sort of projected onto our children. Exactly. So we want to protect our kids because we can't handle it. Not because they can't handle it because we're not handling it. Right. So So my thing is, it's I think it's also important where a parent realises that he or she has not stepped in to, to work on stuff that's that's, you know, getting maybe getting sprinkled on the children that start to take time to do your own work. So that so that you can be more even tempered, and more emotionally regulated and more and as a result be even more emotionally responsive and attuned to your child. I really think this is so insightful. I'm just thinking I'm reflecting on my own parenting experience. For example, my daughter was teased, you know, she had some time some instances this year where she was teased by other classmates. And I was taking it internally. You know, I was a little bit sad for her because I remember those feelings myself feeling teased, it doesn't feel good. You don't know how to respond. You don't know who's on your team. It was really, you know, some icky feelings. And so I was ready for her to be really distraught about being teased, but she seemed to handle it. Well. So you're right. I think I was bringing on my own perceptions of what it would feel like to be teased and I hope she can still I know there's more to come as she goes into the upper years of school and I think I'm just bracing myself that she continues to handle it. Well. Well I would say, go with how she's handled some of the things you've described, and that maybe you have to brace yourself less. She's, you know, she's already handled disappointment, big disappointments. Now, for parents whose kids are having a hard time handling those feelings, let's say they are being bullied at school. Yeah, what what general advice would you give to parents to talk to their children? You know, bullying is hard. And certainly there are, we can see a continuum, we, you know, if it's physical, and there's physical harm, then my thing is I want parents stepping in. And I want parents engaging with the parents of or the caregivers of the children that are involved. And I would want parents to be involved with the school in terms of whatever's happening. Obviously, the physical safety stuff is super important, when the child who's experiencing kind of the verbal harassment and those kinds of things. Again, it's it's tricky, because part of and again, I can remember, you know, even words that my mother was attempting to, you know, as I came home, yet one more day crying and sitting at the kitchen table with her, right. So it's like, how come they're picking on me? It's right, whatever it is, that that it's understand helping the child understand that, that they're not eliciting it. And that, that what's being said about them? Is he actually saying more about the person who's saying it, then the child themselves, yes, that a child doesn't doesn't desire to bring that kind of that kind of conversation, assignment conversation, that those kinds of words onto themselves. And so one part of it is, is continually reminding the child that this is more about who's doing it than what was being said to you. A second is to help the child do their best to not take it in. There's a quote by I think, Eleanor Roosevelt or somebody, I'm gonna mangle it, because I don't have it memorised. But the notion is, is that you can't drown unless you swallow the water. Right? So So part of it is also helping a child understand that, that if the kids are saying it, that they just do their best to go, you know what, I hear it, but I'm not taking this in as its is me. I tell my kids to take those words as information, information about that person. Oh, they said those unkind words, that tells you about that person? Like, why? Why did they need to say that? Why did they need, they must be saying those words, maybe to make themselves feel better? You know, why? Where's that stemming from? And I agree, it's not a reflection on the person that they're saying it to, but rather the person themselves. Right, right. And then there's, you know, there's other things about ignoring it, there's sometimes sometimes it requires a response back and standing up to it, and then kids stop, you know, kids, it, people will look for the vulnerabilities and another. And that the reality is that we can be vulnerable, no matter where we land. I've heard very wealthy, very attractive, people talk about how they were bullied. And I've heard people who have been the exact opposite part of the spectrum where they were impoverished, and embarrassed by what they were wearing day to day, or whatever it might have been, or they had some quirky habits. And they were bullied because of that. So the reality is, is that any, any one of us can experience it, right? And, but it has to do with somebody kind of identifying what appears to be a vulnerability or in actually shouldn't call it a vulnerability, but what they would identify as a weakness or some difference in someone, and then they'll go after that. And, and part of it is if we and if we are different enough, then it's like, celebrate it. Oh, right. Right. I think the key is trying to learn how to not let it affect us, right, right. You know, how to let it how to let it as you said, not not swallow the water. Right, right. You know, you can, depending on the age of the child and the you know, the how the child identifies you can have the child identify a superhero of theirs. And and imagine how the superhero would handle it. Or imagine that they're putting on the superhero suit every time they're going into school, or the superhero suit every time they're going into whatever the situation is, and that whatever is going to be said to them is going to bounce off that suit and bounce back to the person that saying it. So there's there's all sorts of other kinds of things that you can do with something like this. Just you know, just tossing out a handful, today. No, I love it. I think you know this, I think a lot about the term resilience. Because I know you've done a lot of work on resilience. But I think it's so important as a life skill, because you can just see it people that are resilient when when things come out their way, because that's how life is, you know, we all have times of sadness and grief and disappointment. And the faster you can get back up on your feet and keep going, the better off, we live our lives. Right? Yes. And so if we throw some other pieces into that I would see asking for help. As as an important part of resilience, and I never look at asking for help as something that is weak, I really see it as it's, it's a reflection of our humanity. And so I want people to be less. So being able to handle the experience and move through the unpleasant feelings, asking for help, making sure that they're talking about stuff that they're going through, so that they're not isolating and shutting down. So being around a community that loves them, or people that love them makes a huge difference. There's if we get down to some like real life basics, it's also doing things like making sure you're exercising and getting sunlight and adequate food and rest. And even the basics can make a difference in terms of how we're functioning. And, and then it gets into the kind of weigh the ways we think. And the way I cut what I was talking about earlier in terms of what the attitudes and beliefs we hold and the kinds of questions we can even ask ourselves, I can see that 100% I know myself, if I get a good night's sleep, I know the next day is likely going to be a much better day. Yeah, absolutely handle a lot more. Yes. Those simple things do matter. Now, when you talk about asking for help, can you elaborate on that? I mean, yourself as a psychologist is that? Do you mean in terms of therapy? Do you mean with friendships, family, I went for help. Oh, all sorts of ways. I mean, if I'm trying to put together an object, and I'm having trouble putting together the, you know, can't read the directions, well, or whatever it is, then I can turn ask for help. Right? If I am lost driving, and I'm don't have any GPS thing with me, then I can turn to somebody and say, Help me with this. So it's asking for help in any which way you can think about it. And I'm not talking about asking for help when you actually know the answer. And you could do it yourself. I'm talking about asking for help. When there's a genuine, there's a genuine experience of either kind of wanting it beyond what your capacity is or feeling like you need it. And and so let's say against let's say you're going through a conflict, child's going through a conflict at at school, and doesn't know how to handle it. Then coming home and talking to a caregiver might be great, coming going to Utah about talking to teachers going through a teacher and saying I'm having a hard time with so you know, this friend group that's asking for help that's asking for some guidance to help the child sort through what's going on. So asking for help really just means that someone is acknowledging that they feel a need, or they feel some kind of limitation. And that and that, then they're going to seek some assistance, so that they don't do it alone. And many times when we have a chance to talk stuff out, we actually come to the solution ourselves. And or if not, then then we can be helped we can be guided towards the solution. I completely agree with that. I think for myself, if I have something that's percolating a frustration or some problem that I'm going through with in my life, if I talk to somebody that's trusted, and just sort of even just talking it through just letting my I don't even need often to hear advice back. But if I just have a good listening ear, a lot of times the answer will come to me or I'll get some clarity on the situation. That's great advice. Yeah. The beauty of conversation is that it helps achieve clarity. There is something though, where I don't want to overwhelm my kids, like say, for example, they're doing their homework, and they're asking for help on every math problem. I also want to push them a little bit to be independent. Exactly. So you struggle first. You make you have to make the effort. Yes. Right. So it's not it's not giving in so that somebody else just gives it to you. That that this is this is where again, this is where we grow. Because we're put in a situation where we have to make the effort you know, It's like a great metaphor as the whole notion of how you build muscle, right? And so you have to strain the muscle in order for it to, to expand or to grow. Absolutely. Right. So the same, the same is true. It's, so it's in this case, where to me, they're talking about intellectual muscle, or we're talking about real muscle, or we're talking about emotional muscle, that that you've that somebody has to get in and wrestle with whatever it is, or be challenged by it, make efforts in it. And then once they've made those efforts, if they're still falling short, then that's where the help comes in. That makes a lot of sense. And I think, I think you're giving me some good, some good guidance on how to handle future situations with my kids. I'm going to keep urging them to do their piano recitals get in front of people. Yes, try things be independent. And we'll keep talking. Yes, absolutely. But the other thing is, you know, we we naturally compare, to get to one is to kind of get a sense of where we are. And the second is to belong, have a sense of belonging. Yes. And so it's comparison can't be entirely removed. But I really think it can be mitigated that, that it's not, that if, if I chime in too, though, and the way I the way I like to talk about comparison is that it's only used for aspirations. In fact, what I like to call it, I'm not a big fan of jealousy either, but I'd like to call it aspirational jealousy. Right? So I can see someone older than me, or I can see a peer that is pursuing something and doing well at it. And I compare myself and go, Oh, well, I'm not there. But I want that, then that would be a good use of comparison. But if it's to inspire, what to inspire me, right, I want to I aspire to be that, and it is an inspiration. So I'm gonna go after that thing about Olympic athletes. Right? It's perfect example. And, but if it's being used, where I go, Oh, I really want that. Oh, I stink. I'm so bad. I'm ugly. I'm, nobody's gonna like me, and now I'm into harsh self criticism, then, then it's for me, it's like, it's super unhealthy. And I would want that dealt with. So when the comparison goes to I am a lesser human being, then that's really important for from my standpoint to be addressed. So John, question for you. A lot of I think what's so hard as humans is that we are so I find that we're our own worst critics. You know, a lot of people will say that, if only we could talk to ourselves as we talk to our friends. Do you have any advice for for for us for teenagers so that we improve our self talk? Absolutely. I am frankly, I consider engaging in negative self talk, or what I would call harsh self criticism, one of the most damaging things we can do to ourselves. Really, absolutely. Unquestionably, in fact, if someone were watching this, the what I imagine that you're looking at something that looks parallel, so unpleasant feelings, harsh self criticism, you think are the same. But I will tell you that there is no equivalence, there is nothing equal. About harsh self criticism and unpleasant feelings. Unpleasant feelings leave us basically in kind of a, I would say, more centred state when we allow ourselves to experience them because we feel more true to ourselves. We engage in harsh self criticism we tank. And so you know, if people are familiar with the Richter scale, we have earthquakes. Yes. And if you're not, the most important thing to understand about the Richter scale is it's a scale of one to 10. But the difference between, say a three and a four is not one. The difference between a three and a four on the Richter scale is a 10 times effect. Wow. And the way I like to think about harsil criticism is that it has a at least a 10 times effect. So think 10 times 10 times 10, depending on how much you engage in it. Not one times one times one, or one plus one plus one. It's it gets more Applying and the more we do it, the worse we feel. I also happen to think, and I have no, it's more anecdotal in terms of my observations. But I happen to think that harsh self criticism also contributes significantly to people's experience of feeling suicidal. And that if we took away the harsh self criticism, meaning I'm so stupid, those kinds of things, I, nobody loves me, you know, I'm not worth anything, all those kinds of things that people say to themselves, that if we took those away, and we just allowed people to be with the unpleasant feelings that they feel, it would make a massive difference in terms of one's ability to cope. So there's more for me to say on it. But that's a starting point for you. There's a woman named Mel Robbins, I'm gonna I'm gonna paraphrase here, but I read her recently write something of the sense, you know, how does someone really engage in true self care? Is it sleeping? Well? Is it eating right? Is it seeing friends, and she said, the best thing you can do for self care truly, is to have better positive self talk. And I really thought about that. I think it's really true. Yeah, well, I, I would agree. I mean, I think there's a little more to it than that. Because it's hard. Sometimes it feels hard for people to generate positive self talk. They don't they don't necessarily believe what they're saying. Yeah. So I, I'd be happy if people just got to neutral, and then build out from there. Let me let me give a very quick example, in terms of what I'm talking about. And I think harsh self criticism is a thought hijack of unpleasant feelings. And I don't know that we've even talked about the feelings I am centred on. But the feelings that I'm centred on are sadness, shame, helplessness, anger, vulnerability, embarrassment, disappointment and frustration. And I was just again, by way of example, I was I was doing an interview with somebody much akin to what we're doing today, but the other person couldn't hear me and I could hear him. And there's minutes that are going by, he's getting frustrated, he starts playing with all the keyboard controls, nothing's happening, then I see him crawl under the desk. And you know, he's pulling cords, right? And you can just see it. And then I hear him say, I'm so embarrassed. Except without missing a beat. He goes from I'm so embarrassed to I'm so stupid. I'm such an idiot. I mean, it just just that quickly, and I think it happens that quickly for everybody, or generally does. And but the point I want to make here is that once he got to I'm so stupid, I'm such an idiot. That was the thought hijack of the embarrassment. Now one is just uncomfortable, the other one's damaging. And so the thing that I really want someone to understand is that you really want to, I mean, seriously and harsh self criticism. Constructive criticism is one thing or constructive comments or one thing, they're intended to better. But there's nothing about her self criticism that actually is really bettering from my standpoint. So how does one improve that? Like, is there a is there a first step that you would recommend taking to improve negative self talk? Absolutely, you have to notice you're doing it first. Right? So if you know that you get involved in that kind of trash talk, and you're saying mean things to yourself, then the commitment is that you stop it. That's the first thing that you notice when you do it. And the moment you notice you do it, it's almost like kind of backing up and going in reverse. And what I want you to do then, is to say, All right, what was I experiencing? Just right before I started to be mean to myself, what was I feeling that might have been hard for me to think about hard for me to know, hard for me to bear. And let me go back to that so that I can allow myself to experience it and move through it. Likely it's disappointment or sadness, or it's embarrassment, or just like it was for this guy. It was embarrassment. And if he had just said, I'm so embarrassed and left it at that, everything would have been fine. And so you're saying those feelings are okay to have? I think sometimes. I think sometimes we feel like we're not supposed to be feeling frustration or anger that we're supposed to be, you know, above that. Well, I know. Okay, it's great, great question. We're not the best way to think about, again, notice I never call them bad or negative feelings, or the best way to think about that is that unpleasant feelings actually exist for our protective purposes. They're basically kind of a signal that goes on don't go there. All right, because that could be hurtful. But the truth of the matter is, is that none of us can escape life. By not being hurt, we're gonna be hurt. And so again, my thing is build it in. Not that not that you're gonna be hurt all the time, or you're going to be hurt frequently, but that you'll go through periods where you're, you know, you're upset about something. And it's uncomfortable, and it's not pleasant. But, but that, as you mentioned somewhat earlier, that it's information. And so that we want to be able to use pleasant feeling our feelings as information, we want to be able to use unpleasant feelings as information. And if you try to cut off from half of your life experience, meaning unpleasant feeling states, now you're not feeling fully alive, because you're actually numbing part of your life experience. That's not true, it's not congruent. And then you're trying to put forth kind of a false face or a false sense of who you are. And, and then and then that gets worse because not only you not well connected to you, you're not well connected to other people, because even if they say nice things to you, you're not going to believe them, because you know, you're not showing your true self. So cutting out our, the unpleasant feeling states really has the potential of trying to, or not has a potential dampens down or numbs out or deadens, if you will, our fully alive, fully expressed self, you're really making me think because maybe it's the social media culture or the culture that we're in today. But it seems like we're supposed to be feeling joyful and happy and positive all the time. But that's just not the reality. And I think you make a really good point that if we just accept these unpleasant feelings, and stay with those feelings, we're better off for in the end 100% 100%, we're more congruent. And with meaning, meaning our thoughts, our feelings, our actions, and our words all line up. And when we feel more congruent, or when we are being in the world in a more congruent way, again, that means pleasant and unpleasant. When we're more congruent than we're more at inner kind of a heavy sense of inner peace. And my point of view of inner peace is that inner peace really is the reflection of happiness. So let's say we have a teenager that comes home grumpy, they had a bad day at school. What's the approach of the parent? It's, it's not about we're not supposed to try to change. You know, tell them that why are they feeling this way? Your life is great, why aren't you happy? Correct. Digital wise, first of all, ditch any why? Questions? Okay. People, people get defensive when why questions are asked, or they'll try to make up reasons when why questions are asked. So if your child comes home grumpy, then then kind of, if you will, for the few moments, join them in the grumpiness. Just acknowledge that that's what they're going through. It's like, oh, looks like you're having a hard time this afternoon. Like, or, you know, something, something's got you, you know, seems like your mood is off or whatever. And you know what, I'll give you a an example that happened this morning. I talked to a friend last night, who was visiting people she hadn't seen in a long, long time. And, and one of those people is in an ageing uncle. And so there's sadness that was present. And I know this person to be pretty, pretty, bubbly, bubbly, or effervescent, just and generally speaking, pretty kind of a good mood and happy. And, well, she didn't describe any kind of unhappiness, there was a quality of just being much more subdued. And when I had a chance to talk with her this morning, I said it can I check in on something here that seemed you were much more subdued. And and then all of a sudden, all this, like there was a moment of some tearfulness and some other stuff. And some reflections, that that she wasn't even fully aware of kind of came to the surface, just by noticing the upset. So child comes home, Child's grumpy, notice the upset, there's nothing, there's nothing bad or wrong about it. Just be present to it and go. Again, like I said, you're having a hard time. You know, what's, what's going on? Or what do you think might be contributing to that? Let's talk about that. And by the time the child has a chance to be noticed and what he or she is feeling, and then also be able to put words to whatever that experience is. Oftentimes, that's enough to help relieve it or to engage in some problem solving around it. So saying things to your child like that. Don't you appreciate the great life you have? Don't you appreciate the roof over your head? Um, to appreciate that there's a hot meal for dinner. That's not the right approach. Yeah, not so much. Okay, yes, that's really helpful. Okay. And I mean, I feel like that's true for myself. If I am in a mood and somebody says to me, why are you feeling this way? That doesn't feel so great. No, no, it's actually not a question. The thing to do is to observe it and make it a statement. So it's like, you know, your mood seems a little off right now? Or it seems like you're a little irritated, a little frustrated, or whatever the word is, that captures the mood state. Yes, just say that. And but make it a statement, not even a question, not a criticism. That's not a criticism. It's a noticing of someone's state of being. And we're allowed to be in those different states. Absolutely. Those they're normal, they fluctuate and feelings move through. They're transient. So the key is when you notice it, someone someone's experiences being validated, that alone tends to be very, very helpful. And is this what you talk about when you mentioned how important it is to be present? Well, that would be part of it. Yes. Yes, it would be it would be being attuned to the people around you, and and being responsive to kind of where they are as well. So whether it's it's getting at someone's feeling state or some important topic that needs to be discussed, whatever it might be, yes, it's leaning in and being attuned to, and responsive to some what's going on for someone else. I guess after all, we are we are human. Right? We we have feelings. Yes, absolutely. We are feeling beings, we are feeling beings. This is so helpful, I think, not only for the way I'm going to approach talking to my children, but for myself as well. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. The other the other thing, Jessica, to really highlight here is what we started with, which is compliments. So is the thing that I like to say is that if you, if you, if one is engaged in harsh self criticism, and also refuses compliments, then there's no place for the good to come in. Interesting. So I think it's, again, if we're talking about kind of the the arc, or that pathway to confidence, than any harsh self criticism, and accepting compliments are the other two really, really major things to be doing, I have to tell you, you really made me think about this. Because forever, and I'm still a work in progress. But if somebody gives me a compliment, my immediate response is to either you know, sort of blow it off or make light of it, change the subject, complement them back. So I'm really trying hard to take your advice and just let it sink in. And what again, I my point of view is that it really makes a difference when you can absorb them. So so that say thank you, and I received that. Thank you and I receive it and in turn self confidence should theoretically improve. Theoretically, if you're really accepting them, yes, yes, it will. If and if the other things are at play. Yes. If you're allowing yourself to experience and move through the unpleasant feelings. If you're taking action, which I know you are, if you're speaking up, which I believe you are, if you're diminishing or ending harsh self criticism. And if you are also then taking in compliments and really absorbing them, see them as a reflection of you back to you. So they're not made up. They're coming up in an experience with you or have you. So it's it's someone just trying to hold up a mirror and say, here's, here's your reality. Here's the reality I see of you. Now, I'm just curious for you personally, have you put these measures at play in your own life? And have you felt a difference? Yes, yes. And yes. I found the easiest way to describe it is that when I first started teaching graduate school, I was in my early 30s. Roughly, and when I started teaching consistently, I was in my early 30s. And I started to get responses from the students that was kind of wholly unexpected, and very favourable, very kind comments very favourable. And, and it was like What My first reaction was like, what, what are you talking about? And me, that was kind of that kind of reaction. But it kept happening. And it and I mean with consistency that at some point, because then it cut across the years. And it happened was such a consistency that I had to go. Okay, wait a minute, I have to take stock of what's being said to me. And I have to I got to think about this differently. I'm being seen in a particular way, consistently. I've never seen myself that way. But what kind of what if I stepped into that? What if I, what if I understood that to actually be true? And and what it did was it allowed me to feel centred in a way. And and not question coming out question my own abilities in a way that I probably question them before, like, did I really have something to offer that kind of thing. So that went away. And then and then over time, it was also realising that some of my ideas were a little bit more novel, or a little bit more innovative than some of the ways I heard most people talk about psychology or, or psychotherapy, or those kinds of things. So that I could lean into my creativity a little bit more to so it has made a difference in my life. It's really beautiful. Because I agree with those comments, you what you what you say, is really thought provoking you really the things that you say, I'm so glad that you're here speaking to our audience, because such wonderful creative thoughts in ways I haven't heard psychologist talk before. So I'm so so lucky to have you here. It's a pleasure. Absolute pleasure. Now, where can people find you if they want to hear more about you read more about you what tell us about your book, your website, and well the Broncos 90 seconds to a life you'd love it really is you can think it's a it'll take you on a self help journey. So if dealing with unpleasant feelings is not your jam. And you know, it really needs to be something more, or you actually struggle with different kinds of compulsive or addictive behaviours. Even though I don't talk about it that directly it gets underneath that. And it really to me is the how to, to developing confidence or building confidence and, and ultimately, resilience because being confident is part of resilience and also then being much more authentic in life. So that's, that really is the book, and people can find me at Dr. Joan rosenberg.com. That's probably the easiest way to find me. Or if you kind of even just type my name into and want to just hear more things. If you type my name in I've there's three TED talks, there's an array of different interviews and podcasts etc. So there's a there's quite a bit that's out there now. And I'm just, I'm just one grateful human being. I'm likewise I'm so, so grateful to have met you and thank you so much for coming on. It's a pleasure. Thanks. Thank you so much for tuning into this week's episode of Ask Dr. Jessica. I would be so appreciative if you would leave a five star review and share this podcast with a friend. See you next Monday.