Ask Dr Jessica

Ep 66: How can alternative medicine be used to treat colds and flus? w/ pediatrician Elisa Song MD

December 05, 2022 Dr Elisa Song Season 1 Episode 66
Ask Dr Jessica
Ep 66: How can alternative medicine be used to treat colds and flus? w/ pediatrician Elisa Song MD
Show Notes Transcript

Ask Dr Jessica episode 66 with pediatrician Dr Elisa Song.  Dr Song is a pediatrician and practices with integrative medicine.  Today we will discuss how to best support our children, with prevention and treatment during this cold and flu season.

Dr Song is a Stanford, NYU, and UCSF trained pediatrician.  She founded Whole Family Wellness, an integrative pediatric practice in Belmont, CA – one of the first and most highly regarded holistic pediatric practices in the country.  She is a holistic pediatrician, integrating conventional pediatrics with functional medicine, holistic nutrition, homeopathy, acupuncture, herbal medicine, and essential oils. She has lectured for the Center for Education and Development in Clinical Homeopathy (CEDH), Academy for Pain Research, Institute for Functional Medicine, and Holistic Pediatric Association, and has lectured internationally.

Check out her website
Follow Dr Song on Instagram! @Healthykids_happykids

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

Do you have a future topic you'd like Dr Jessica Hochman to discuss? Email Dr Jessica Hochman askdrjessicamd@gmail.com.

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Unknown:

Hey everybody, welcome back to ask Dr. Jessica the podcast where my goal is to give you quality medical information to help you along your parenting journey. I'm your host and paediatrician Dr. Jessica Hochman. Today we have on a very special guest Dr. Elisa song. Dr. Song is a paediatrician with impressive degrees. She went to Stanford and she completed her paediatric training at the University of California in San Francisco. She is also an integrated paediatrician and a functional medicine expert. In her practice, she has helped 1000s of kids using her knowledge of conventional paediatrics while combining her knowledge of functional medicine and homoeopathy. Dr. Song has created an online paediatric resource healthy kids happy kids. In today's episode, we will talk about how to help kids during this cold and flu season. It is my pleasure to welcome Dr. Elisa song. Dr. Lisa sang, I can't tell you how excited I am to talk to you. I am so honoured to be here with you Dr. Jessica. This is I've been I you know watching your podcasts and it's amazing. So I'm glad to be a guest today. I practice allopathic medicine or traditional Western medicine. But I definitely I have a little inkling of interest in integrative medicine when I was a first year medical student you have you have the summer off between your first and second year. And you can do anything you want that summer and I spent six weeks working at an integrative medicine practice in in New York City and I just loved it. So tell me how did you get interested in integrative medicine? You know, it was? It's an interesting question because a lot of people get into integrative medicine functional medicine because maybe they've had a health problem and conventional medicine didn't have the answers or maybe a family member and knock on wood. I mean, luckily that that isn't my story. It's just something that I've been really interested in from the moment I started looking into peds. When I was an undergrad at Stanford, it's funny, I have decided to go into medicine. My mom was an OB, and I was like, the last thing I want to do is to go into medicine. But I knew I wanted to work with children of four children. So I was going to be a teacher. I took the LSAT, I was going to be a civil rights lawyer. And then you know, junior year of college, I was like, What is this flyer? I'd already taken the LSAT and, and I saw this flyer and it was the I think it was the second annual meeting of the American Holistic Medical Association, which doesn't exist now. But whatever got in me to drive down to the Santa Clara convention centre, I heard from people who are just getting on then and I you know, I'm a lot older than you, I'm guessing. I mean, this was back in like the late 80s, you know, early 90s. And I heard Deepak Chopra speak, and Andrew Weil and Joan Bohr Sanko. And these people, and I was like, Who are these people? What are they teaching? Like? Can medicine look like this? And so, I mean, that at that point on, I was like, I want to be a paediatrician, I want to work with kids. And I want to do something like that. So that's how I started. And do you treat patients? I do. In fact, as soon as we're done with this interview I have the last patient of the day. Yeah, I do see patients I see a combination of, well, kids whose parents are really interested in an integrative approach. They like that I, you know, am a conventionally trained paediatrician, I went to UCSF, I can prescribe medications if needed, but they also liked that I have other options. And, you know, if they know, if I prescribe an antibiotic, it must mean it's really needed, right? Because I don't like to prescribe unnecessary antibiotics as you know, as the all paediatricians, but that if I do recommend antibiotics, I know how to help them, you know, mop up their microbiome and restore their gut health. So and then I have also more of a consultative practice where patients might have their own primary care physician, but they come to me because they have, you know, maybe eczema, or asthma or, or an autoimmune illness or add, and they want to know what else they can do to support their children. Maybe they're already on medications and not working as well as they want to. And so what else can they do? Or maybe they're at that that decision point where the doctor might be recommending some medications? And they come to me and say, Is there anything we can do before we try? So runs the gamut, but But it keeps my life interesting. No, it's fantastic. And I think, you know, what I always hear about Western medicine doctors is that too many are closed off to the idea of alternative ideas, and then we're conventionally taught and the problem with that is, they say over 50% of Americans will look elsewhere. You know, if they're not happy with the care or the answer they got they will look elsewhere. So if we don't stay open minded, we're not going to have as open of a relationship with our with our families, our patients. Yeah, no way. And here's the thing. I mean, I just want you know, want physicians to recognise if, first of all, if they don't ask the questions, right, what what other kinds of medicine are you looking at? Or are you considering for you or your child and also asks it in an open minded way? Right, not in a kind of, oh my gosh, are you trying that kind of thing? Then not only do we know We lose that line of communication, we actually aren't helping our patients from a medical standpoint, because we don't necessarily know if what they're doing, maybe interfering with what we're doing, first of all right. And also it loses our opportunity to figure out what other ways we can help our kids to the fullest extent possible, because there is no way zero way that any one practitioner has all the answers for that child in front of you. And, and I will, you know, will never ever say that I know it all. Because a second, you say that you know it all, or that something is 100% Bad or 100%. Good. That's when you start, stop really becoming the best, best physician that you can be for your kids. I agree. I feel like staying humble is so important. I will say, you know, we're gonna jump into cold and flu. But one of the things that I really, really, really wish every physician could understand is the the harm that we are doing, potentially, when we write that antibiotic prescription, right, we have to do this judiciously and mindfully understanding the downstream effects that yes, when an antibiotic is absolutely necessary. Of course, you know, we want to kill that bad bug. But we're also going to potentially wipe out all the good bugs in your child's gut microbiome. It's so interesting, as doctors, I think, you know, a lot of us know, we have our prescription panic pad handy. And we, we have this feeling that when patients come to see us, they want us to use that prescription pad. And I think sometimes it takes a lot of it does actually take more time to explain why we don't want to reflexively prescribe an antibiotic for an ear infection, for example. But I think there's a lot of value. And I think parents ultimately appreciate if you spend the time to explain why you kind of weigh out the benefits and the harms. Yeah. And some parents, you know, are becoming more aware of that. But it's so interesting, what you said about, you know, we sit there and you know, with our patients in front of us and the parents in front of us. And, you know, we know that a lot of them, they want to leave with a prescription in hand. Right? I mean, that's just, that's just the way it is right now. Right? Because unfortunately, in conventional paediatrics, we don't have a lot of other tools to offer, right. And also as a parent, right, you know, when your kids sick, and they're suffering, you're like, I have to do something. And you're thinking, okay, maybe you know, that maybe the antibiotic will help. Right, even though, deep down. I mean, as a paediatrician, you know, it's really not going to do anything that's viral. And so there was a study looking at physicians, expectations of the patient's expectations of wanting a prescription, and that significantly increased their likelihood of writing a prescription, even though when surveyed, they knew it wasn't really going to be that helpful. I mean, isn't that fascinating, so, so that also means that we have to take a step back, and you know, when a patient is in front of us, and you have this crying sick child who's holding their ear and like, well, we have to just ourselves, you know, remain calm, and, you know, look at the evidence and talk to our patients about, you know, when when the appropriate time is and when it's not, especially because I just saw this alarming statistic that by 2050, which is right around the corner, that antibiotic resistance is headed towards being one of the top leading causes of death in the world. Right. Probiotic resistance, I mean, we are creating these superbugs. And we know, I mean, what do you most kids get sick with? Typically, it's a viral infection. I mean, sometimes it's bacterial. But, you know, we have to assume that that probably, you know, many of those antibiotic prescriptions are inappropriately written with the best intentions, right? I mean, I'm not blaming anybody, and I've been there too, or you're looking there, you're like, Wow, I'm kind of on the fence. But you know, they're, they're really miserable. I think maybe we should just try it or, you know, the kid with the congestion for two weeks and you're like, Ah, I don't think it's bacteria, but maybe they have a sinusitis. Right, we've all been there as paediatrician. So I'm not placing any blame. But but you know, when one of the more recent studies a couple of months ago, so that maybe up to 70% of antibiotic prescriptions written for kids in the outpatient setting, are inappropriate, right, I believe. Yeah. either. They're written for viral infections, or they're just way, way more broad spectrum, you know, than they need to be. And when that happens, it significantly increases the risk of adverse allergic reaction C Diff infections in your kid. So do you feel like it's getting better? I feel like it is I feel like people don't expect antibiotics as much as they used to. I think I absolutely think so. So I think on the part of medical professionals, yes, there there's more of a an impetus to be more judicious with antibiotic prescriptions. And yes, I think there's more and more awareness in the in the public, you know, the lay, lay, you know, arena, not just with kind of holistic, integrative Mama's but you know, even among conventionally conventional mamas who do just realised okay for viruses. Yep, we can't take a medicine for, there's no prescription that's really going to help. And prescriptions might do more harm, you know, eventually. So I think we're getting there. We just, we just have to really get there before we head to the point where, you know, we're not gonna be able to treat like strep throat. You know, with the advice that we have. There's so much that I could talk to you about I've I have so many questions for you. I would love to pick your brain on everything pretty much in paediatrics. But right now we're in a pretty heavy cold and flu season. And I don't know how you're feeling. But for me, it's way busier right now than it was during COVID. During COVID. You know, a lot of kids were not getting sick at all. They were not in school and not seeing their friends. So they really weren't getting very sick. And now we're inundated with viruses. And so I would love to talk to you, one to explain to everybody how to think about these viruses. And then I'd also love to learn a bit about your holistic approach when it comes to cold and flu season. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So so. So tell me, how are you? Are you seeing a lot of cold and flu on your end? I am they're running the gamut. And the thing is, you know, a lot of now at this point, people are testing for coma, but not necessarily anything else. Right. So, I mean, if they do get tested, I'm just starting right now to see an increase in influenza. But for certain, you know, for sure there's been RSV, and there's been a tonne of other non RSV non flu, upper respiratory viral infections. So it's there, it's definitely there's a lot of fever, and a lot of parents are getting hammered, too, right? Because, you know, they're not used to their kids bring home all this stuff from school, like before the pandemic, right. And it's interesting, because COVID is still around, but you know, and I don't want to be I don't want to diminish the potential severity of COVID. But for most of my patients at this point, now, they're telling me COVID felt like a piece of cake, you know, compared to like, the flu or RSV, or whatever it is. And I think, you know, because as we've as we've seen as COVID has evolved, it's become a more manageable Coronavirus. Right. But, you know, with influenza, and with RSV, you know, we haven't seen RSV and flu really too much. I mean, last year, there was more RSV, but you know, not really, to this extent right now. And not to the extent that the southern hemisphere did in their winter, which is our summer, you know, since before the pandemic, and you know, the one of the things that I just want to just hopefully have a little bit of a silver lining in all of this is that in order to become resilient, right, immunologically, we need these exposures. Right? You know, not having these exposures and opens up our immune system to not remembering how to deal and you know, either overshooting or maybe doing things in the wrong way, the silver lining in this, you know, cold and flu season right now is yes, it's rough. Yes, there was a lot of germs going around. But it helps us be able to deal with the next one, and the next one, and the next one, and this winter is going to help us deal with the next winter. Right. And so we just have to remember that it is not about trying to make sure your kids never ever get sick. Because first of all, unless you live in a bubble, a very lonely bubble, that's not going to happen. Right, right. And second of all, it's not good for your immune system. So I just want parents to just take a step back and really, you know, shift a little bit of a fear mindset. I think you make a great point about how how helpful it actually can be to be exposed to illnesses because I know I mean, I I'm with everybody, I agree on this. I don't like getting sick, it's uncomfortable to be sick. But I also do know that it does build my immune system. A lot of people ask me the question, how do you know my kids immune system is quote, unquote, weak? How do I help them get stronger? And the irony is that actually getting sick is what will make them stronger? Yeah, right. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's it is an important part of, of, you know, building that reserve and that memory. So out of curiosity, you know, when I see kids get colds and flus some of the general advice I give them is what I call supportive care making them feel better at home things like warm fluids rest Tylenol, Advil, what else would you add from an integrative standpoint to those recommendations? You mean when they're sick when they're sick? Yeah, yeah. So when they're sick, I mean a couple of things. I mean, we have to look at you know, diet and lifestyle as you said, like be a couch potato, right? There's a reason our cells our cells go into this, you know, state of sickness and literally give us sick behaviours. That means, I mean, you lay on the couch, right? You're not your usual self. You know, so that that's one thing as parents, a lot of parents want that, you know, they give the time Elena oh they're back to themselves right I'm like I don't want them back to themselves I want them to sitting on the couch resting using all of their energy to fight that infection. So that's really important. You know when we have a fever and we're sweating we're losing a lot of electrolytes so electrolyte fluids can be super hydrating and help your kids feel better. You know we you know bone broth is amazing if your kids will sit bone broth. My one of my favourites right now for hydration to do double duty is is making some time tea. A lot of people have dry time in their in their pantry or you can get some fresh time but time has antimicrobial properties it also helps it's unexpected and helps to break up mucus and right now what I've seen is just a lot of this stuff right the head stuff like there's so stuffy So drinking time tea if they're over than what older than one go ahead you know put some honey it's with some lemon I mean make it tasty. But I love that sugar you know we have to cut the sugar. Sugar reduces our white blood cells capacity of macrophages to kind of enveloped by phagocytose eat these germs literally by up to 50% so you know when your kids sick and they're miserable and they're asking for that cook each day Nope. We got to make sure your immune system is has all the you know all the armies that it can and then you know and I do use different different supplements and remedies now there's one herbal supplement is called Pelargonium sidoides ease. So you can find it either is V clear or Guca UMC ka eu coldcure syrup, so Pelargonium sidoides, it's an African butcher, but it's found to have activity against you know, a variety of different coronaviruses. Even influenza virus can shorten the duration of illness, and can help even with coughs and upper respiratory symptoms. super safe, it's really tasty. I mean, kids like to take it. So that's when I'll start right away. I, my kids, my patients are I mean, they're typically on a vitamin D supplement, at least through the winter to keep their vitamin D levels up. But if they're not, then I definitely make sure that they get their vitamin D at the start of illness and maybe take a little bit of a higher dose. To start with because vitamin D, it helps promote the production of a protein called cathelicidin, which has amazing antimicrobial properties. And optimise your vitamin D levels has been found to really lower your risk of more severe infection, you know, cytokine storm is always talked about with flu, vitamin C can be lung protective if you have a cough, so upping your vitamin C. I also you know, really focus on what can we give as far as foods go that have all the the nourishing nutrients that your immune system really needs and when you're sick, it's really hard to prioritise, anti oxidants, right, all of those colourful fruits and vegetables so I'll remind or maybe not necessarily remind but educate parents that you know when we feel sick, it's not the bug that is making us feel sick. Right it's our immune systems reaction to it. So when you feel really really crummy if you have antioxidants, a mop up all that oxidative stress, you're gonna feel better faster. So yummy food really matters. Yes, no, I I like a lot of what you're saying. I agree with a couple of things. The point about the fever, reducing medications, how they change a child's behaviour. That's such a great point. I think a lot of parents you know, they reflexively they see a fever, and they want to bring the fever down. And then all of a sudden, like you said, the child's bouncing off the walls. And I do think there's something to say for the body wanting the child to rest, you know, there it conserves their energy, it helps them fight infections. You know, I always say to a get some extra snuggles when they're when they're relaxed on the couch. So I think that's a great point that, you know, in that situation, I like my I like kids resting. It's only when the fever makes them feel bad that I think it's worth considering an antipyretic medication like Tylenol or ibuprofen. Yeah. And you know, when you're saying snuggling on the couch or sit with your kids. The other thing I teach parents is, you know, different acupressure points that can be really helpful. So while you're snuggling them you know why not massage and acupressure point that's going to help them maybe reduce the fever or help them with their congestion or with their headaches. And one point like when you're holding it's, you know, this this point right here, this large intestine for which is in the web space between your thumb and your index finger, you can just hold them and just kind of put gentle pressure on here. You put maybe a drop of lavender essential oil for calming and anti inflammatory benefits and just hold that and, and that this point actually has studies on its antipyretic benefit. So wow, that'd be a great one to add. I'm thinking your kids must have loved having you around when they were sick. Oh, well. I brought out the actual acupuncture needles for them. So So Oh, no. Now question for you. I, you know, I totally agree that you want to use food as a medicine. And I'm such a believer in trying to get all of these vitamins as naturally as possible, like vitamin D, I always say why not just get outside and get some fresh air? Vitamin C, Vitamin B, you know, trying to getting tried to try to get those vitamins through the foods. Do you think that would be an okay approach as well? I do. Yes. And, you know, given that most kids are not meeting their daily requirements of fruits and vegetables, it's really challenging, really challenging a realistic approach, right. And I have yet to find a child, even in the middle of summer, even if they're, you know, quote, good eaters that, you know, have really optimal vitamin D levels. I mean, we're just lathering ourselves in sunscreen, and, you know, the northern hemisphere apart from the summer months, it's just hard to get enough conversion through your skin, just the, the UV rays are just not at the right angle. So So yes, by all means, I mean, work towards getting in that that rainbow and getting your fibre for, you know, for gut health. But you know, I mean, what are some of the latest statistics at 70% of kids? And adults? You know, don't get enough, you know, fruits and vegetables in a day. I think maybe 30% of teens don't have any produce in a day. And kids that yeah, and the kids that do the studies include fruit juice as a serving, and I'm like, oh. So okay, so So to your point, yeah, why not take some extra, get some extra supplements in presuming that we might not be getting the daily needs that we would like to get? Yeah. And also when you're sick, we have higher needs than we do a baseline. So you just might need a little extra support to help your immune system just get over the hump? Yes. All right now in terms of how medications are used for the colds and flu season, we already talked about how antibiotics are not helpful for colds because colds are a virus. What about for the flu? Tamiflu comes up a lot. It's a FDA approved medication for influenza. Is there ever What are your thoughts on on on? Also tamma Vir to Tamiflu. Yeah, do you ever recommend using it? And I'm going to be totally honest, I don't. It's not to say I don't recommend any medications. Right. Because I you know, I've certainly I mean, I prescribe antibiotics and I prescribe you know, different different medications. But here's here's with Tamiflu. My thought process, okay. And it's it has to be individualised. I mean, if you have a child who has a really high risk, you know, for severe complications from the flu, that's a totally different story, right? Then then a child at baseline who, you know, they're, they're healthy, right? There's, they don't really have any, you know, comorbidities for really severe influenza. But when we look at and you know, you can look up the Cochrane Review Cochrane, you know, for those of you listening don't know, it's like a, you know, review of multiple studies, and they kind of come up with their conclusions. And so, I mean, this is a little older, but you know, 2014, the Cochrane review of all the, you know, Tamiflu oseltamivir studies really didn't find much benefit. You know, it was, first of all, only effective if you take it within the first 48 hours, wrongly, right? So if you're so do not even think about Tamiflu. If you've had symptoms for four or 567 days, and you're like, I'm still miserable, I want the Tamiflu it's going to do nothing, right, nothing. And when you looked at Tamiflu, across the studies, the symptom reduction period was less than a day for healthy teenagers. So all right, you take it, maybe you're going to feel better it half a day earlier. For some maybe that's worth it, right. And then you look at some of the potential side effects. And the scariest one doesn't happen that commonly thankfully. But the psychiatric side effects, right, these kids literally, like becoming psychotic and delirious. And that effect happens more often in kids and adults. So after a couple of times, where parents have called me and said they're seeing that they're delirious or seeing things, and they get scared. I mean, it's like, I mean, that's I would be totally panicked if my kid was having that. Right. So as you said, it doesn't happen very often, but it definitely I've seen it happen. Yeah, and other side effects, the other negative being nausea. I think a good amount of kids, you know, around 15% or so feel really nauseous and throw up when they take Tamiflu they feel worse. Yep. And then you're like, are they getting worse than the flu? Or is it a medication, right? It's true. I'm all for you know, as a parent, get the information you need and then make the decision you're comfortable with but I want to make sure you have all the information at hand, right? Because if you're not aware of the studies showing very minimal reduction in symptom duration And then you know, some of the potential side effects, you might make a different decision you might not right but at least you you are making that decision with as much knowledge as you can. And I'll support parents in whatever decision they make. But I just want to make sure that they know all the different factors to consider tell you what I do right away, right? No matter what's going on, because when your kid has a fever and they're congested, or their sore throat, you don't know right away. Is it flu is RSV. Is it a cold? Is it adenovirus? I mean, you don't know. Right? So what I do right away, and I actually brought a couple of things up, there's a homoeopathic influenza, you know, remedies called Osterloh Coxcomb. And it comes with the little tiny vials, and they're actually it's hard to blind homoeopathic studies. But there, there was a significant reduction in symptoms duration, when patients took Oslo at the start of their illness. Again, everything works better when you start at the beginning. So at the start of that, where the virus gets into the cells of your body, yeah, yep. You know, then the people who didn't take it, so I do one vial, just pour the whole thing kids love it, their little sugar pellets, one vial three times in a in a 24 hour period, and then you stop, okay? And I just, you know, like, let's say Bodie comes home with with a, you know, a flu like illness, then I will just give one vial to the whole family just just for good measure. And then there's this a saline nasal spray with low grapefruit seed extract a little xylitol, it's called X clear. I don't have any ownership. And these companies just tell you what I recommend. So there's X clear which comes in a pump. And then they even have a baby version, a kid version that's more sealing drops. But you want to you know, when you get exposed to a cold virus or flu virus, that virus is gonna replicate and multiply and start to colonise in your respiratory passages before you start to feel sick. Right? So that's where if you know you've been exposed, maybe you know your friend who is sitting next to in class is like sneezing and they go home with a fever like oh boy. And then just clear out your nose. You can use regular saline or a neti pot or a sinus rinse, whatever it is, but if you flush out your nose, try to flush out that those viruses before they can really colonise. It's, it's amazing, you know, since I've started doing that for our family, you know how, how, how much you how many fewer times we actually get the thing that we were just exposed to. It sounds so safe. I mean, what's the harm in trying nasal saline and you said grapeseed extract, there's a little grapeseed extract and a little Xylitol and Xylitol we know has, you know chewing gum and Xylitol can help prevent ear infections, right and can prevent cavities. So and then yeah, and then I'll start on a higher dose of vitamin D. The Pelargonium sidoides, so I'll kind of get all those things in. Now, that's going to be fairly common across the board for any viral upper respiratory infection or flu like illness. The reason I've been telling patients to go get tested for the flu, because before this particular prescription medicine was around, I'd say it doesn't matter if it's a flu, we're gonna do the same thing anyway. Right? Right. And then you're just gonna go into the ER and be exposed to other stuff. So just stay at home. Right. But you know, if you if, if you know, you have influenza, there is a new ish medicine called xofluza or baloxavir. I don't know just if you've ever prescribed that it's, it's now approved for use only be approved for 12. And up this year is approved for five and up. So not for the little just yet, but it is a true influenza virus replication inhibitor, right, because Tamiflu works by inhibiting neuraminidase, right, that's the protein right on the on the virus that then allows it to get extruded into your cells, but it doesn't do anything to inhibit replication. So blocks are actually inhibits influenza virus replication, right? Again, this it does have to be taken within the first 24 to 48 hours. But you know, it can be amazing. I really do believe, I mean, the sooner you can get it the better, right? Because it's just said you want to get it before replicating can spread to all the different cells in your body. So within that first 24, maybe 40 hours. So that's the only reason I would test for the flu because it doesn't work for any other virus. It's specific to influenza. I just want to know it's effective, if not going to have unintended adverse events. Right. Effects and and it's going to be well, yeah, that's it effective, safe and not have any downstream problems. Right. Absolutely. That sounds like a good checklist. Now, what about zinc? A lot of I know there have been some good evidence based studies showing that if you are in the early stages of symptoms, some sore throat if you take some zinc if you if you suck on zinc lozenges frequently enough it may prevent or lessen the symptoms of a viral illness. Yeah, absolutely. like zinc is zinc is really helpful. Now the only problem with zinc is that it can absolutely cause nausea and GI distress. So you want to take it with food. But zinc is really helpful. The other thing too, supporting the gut, you know, with probiotics there. In fact, even as a preventive there are two probiotic strains that have been found to reduce the frequency of viral respiratory infections during the winter. So you can find some provide some immune probiotics that have those strains in it. But, but zinc Yes, probiotics, yes, protecting the gut. Why is that so important? Well, you know, when they've looked at, and, um, you know, most, virtually no kids are gonna go on and have sepsis, right? But when we look at models of sepsis, we know that sepsis can be associated with something called metabolic endotoxemia. And that's really when these these it's called polysaccharides, as LPs, Lippo polysaccharides, get absorbed through your gut, into your bloodstream and wreak all sorts of havoc. And we found that, you know, in sepsis, we can protect the gut while you're sick and prevent this, this LPS from translocating into your bloodstream, then that also I do you really believe will help reduce your kids risk from getting risk for getting really sick. At least I love how you really, you're more than just your holistic doctor, but you really understand why you prescribe things or why you recommend things, you really seem to really have a good grasp on the science. Well, I feel like that is so important, right? I mean, because otherwise? I mean, I don't know, you know, you have to come at this from from a first research standpoint, and then how do you apply it clinically? And I think the LEAP there is, you know, we have so many studies with different potentials, right? Maybe zinc, cowork, maybe vitamin D, maybe vitamin C, but then you have to be willing to try things me like in my practice for my kids that, you know, look like they potentially can be effective, and know the pathophysiology, why it might be effective. So then you can know, okay, this is really what I want to try. And that also, it's not going to cause harm. And then we get that that's where we get that evidence based clinical evidence, right, we get that clinical experience. But I think you know, and that's where you have to go with the research and help let that guide you on what you want to choose and what you might want to try. Because otherwise you're just kind of shooting in the dark, right? Absolutely, no. Now now, for parents that are listening to have kids, they want to keep healthy during this winter season. I know we've talked about a lot of ways to support the immune system. And I know things like sleep. So we talked about eating healthy. Getting outside, do you have any other immune support or advice that we didn't talk about? Okay, so I mentioned, you know, and I actually, you know, I'll have my kids do this, do a saline rinse, like, you know, every night like, while they're brushing their teeth, they just spray their nose, right? Because why not, you know, during the winter, just clear, whatever you're exposed to. Right? Yes. So you know, we take our probiotics, vitamin D, we have, we have a zinc, vitamin C combo powder that will use fermented foods, I mean, my kids aren't that they're not the hugest fermented food eaters, but we try to get that in. There is also if you're really wanting a little extra support, I hadn't used this for a while this was pre pandemic, but now I'm back to recommending there's a supplement called Arabica GALACTA ham. It's made from the bark of the large tree, and it boosts what's called your natural killer cells. So for those listening your natural killer cells, our first line of defence against whatever we might be encountering, you know, whether it's a virus or bacteria, so it can help support you know, more effective natural killer cell activity. And so tasteless powder comes in a capsule to if you prefer solid, but I do I do. I happen to recommend that now as well. Amazing, I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. Yeah, no problem. You know, what I love about you is it's your your passion for alternative medicine is palpable. I mean, this is this is what I love. And who knows, I mean, you know, I if I couldn't practice medicine, I tell my family and my friends, I just I think if I couldn't practice integrative medicine, I think I would just not practice I would do something different, right? Because I really, truly feel that this is this is the way that we need to start moving towards figuring out how to help our kids, not just, you know, prevent the bad thing from happening, but really move them towards a state of optimal wellness. And so true. I always think to myself that as much as I love seeing patients here and helping them as I can, so much of health and most of Health has nothing to do really with coming to the doctor. It's what it's what they're doing at home. Yeah. 100% Yeah, absolutely. Well, you're amazing. I so appreciate your advice. It's so nice to know that someone like us out there helping families. Well, thanks for putting on your podcast and having amazing guests and I love I love watching and seeing you on Instagram. I do listen. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode with Dr. Elisa song. If you want to learn more from Dr. Song I recommend checking out our website healthy kids happy kids.com And her Instagram page healthy kids happy kids. I'll make sure and put a link in the show notes below. Also, if you're enjoying this podcast, I would be so grateful if you would take the time to leave a kind review. I really do appreciate them and I read them all. You can also follow me on instagram if you're not already at ask Dr. Jessica See you next Monday.