Homeschooling! How can we incorporate teaching into our homes? with Julie Bogart

Episode 71 of Ask Dr Jessica with homeschooling expert, Julie Bogart.  In this episode, we discuss the core principles of home schooling, and how parents can incorporate those principles into their own homes---regardless if they homeschool or not.  Julie is passionate about learning, writing and supporting children & parents.  She believes that parents and children are partners in the learning adventure, and she is especially passionate about teaching children to be good writers.  She is the author of two books: Raising Critical Thinkers and The Brave Learner.  

To learn more about Julie, please follow her on instagram @juliebravewriter and she has a wonderful podcast about how parents can bring learning to life for our kids: "The Brave Writer, with Julie Bogart".   Visit http://bravewriter.com and follow along at the blow for show notes: http://blog.bravewriter.com.  

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

Do you have a future topic you'd like Dr Jessica Hochman to discuss? Email Dr Jessica Hochman askdrjessicamd@gmail.com.

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Hey, everybody welcome to ask Dr. Jessica the podcast where my goal is to give you quality information to help you along your parenting journey. I'm your host and paediatrician Dr. Jessica Hochman. I am so grateful to have our guest today, Julie Bogart. Julie is a homeschooling advocate. She even homeschooled her very own five children. And she's the author of two books, raising critical thinkers and the brave learner. Today we will be talking about her books and her general philosophy around education. She really has so much wisdom to share. If you enjoyed this episode, I would be so appreciative if you would share it on your social media, pass it along to a friend or leave a five star review on Apple iTunes. Also, I wanted to share some exciting news that for the very first time, I will be offering an online interactive workshop to help parents worry less about their toddlers, I will be covering a range of topics to help you lessen your stress. It will be a four week course starting at the end of February. So stay tuned for more information. If you're interested in hearing more details, definitely follow me on Instagram at ask Dr. Jessica or send an email to ask Dr. Jessica md@gmail.com. All right now on to my conversation with Julie Bogart. Julie, I'm so excited to have you on my podcast. Thank you so much for taking your time. It's an honour to be here. Thanks, Jessica. So I can't wait to talk to you about your philosophy about homeschooling. Can we start by me just asking you who are you and tell my audience what your interests are? Yeah, so my name is Julie. I'm the mother of five kids. They're all adults. Now. Four of them are married. They live all over the world, Mexico, Central Africa, various states in the United States. And I have three grandchildren. And I start with that because my greatest joy in my adulthood was the privilege of raising those kids and spending a lot of time with them. I did homeschool I learned about it early on in my life in the early 1980s. And it just seemed like such a natural extension of the parenting that I was already doing. I'm a freelance writer, I worked in ghost writing, magazine editing, dissertation evaluations, that kind of thing. I've taught at the university level. So I've had a variety of experiences in my life. I started a company in January of 2000, called Brave Writer. And I started that company because it seemed like the art of writing was being ruined by traditional education. And I wanted to reinvest it with the same kind of vibrancy that professional writers experience when they're learning to write. So that's sort of the snapshot of me. What I find so interesting is right now I think there's been a renaissance of homeschooling, I think, especially since COVID-19, for sure. But you were doing it before it was mainstream. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's so interesting to me, because I knew homeschoolers who had started in the 80s and 70s. So I didn't feel like a pioneer. But it was before the internet. And back in that era, it was fewer than 800,000 families today, there are more than 3 million. And they are also global. You know, it's much more of a mainstream American idea. Now it's really moved around the globe. What COVID-19 Did for homeschooling is it legitimised it. So up until that point, when I would be interviewed on podcasts or interviews on radio, people always regarded me with some suspicion, almost like an oddity. And then when COVID broke, and everyone had to have their kids stay at home. Suddenly, parents who had been homeschooling moved into an authority figure role. And I really enjoyed that not because I need to be seen as an authority. But because homeschooling itself is so valuable. And whether you have the ability to stay home with your children full time or not. All parents ought to have a hand in being invested in their children's education, there is so much you can do as a parent, whether your kids are in school or not. And so for me, what I've wanted all along is for the insights of the homeschool movement to actually be in dialogue with the story of education. That is incredible. It is because I think, you know, when I was growing up, I remember meeting a couple of friends that had been homeschooled or specifically when I was in college, and they had to start the conversation. I'm normal. I know how to talk to people. They had to start the conversation that way. I remember feeling that for them that that was that they had to explain themselves. Yes. In fact, my own children share that very story. They went off to Ohio State and people said, Oh, you're not what I thought a homeschooler was and when they would explain, you know, I'm just like you I played sports. I had friends. But I think there was this notion and not completely a misguided notion. And whenever you go against the conventional understanding whenever you do something that would be considered innovative or even transgressive, the way homeschooling was originally, it takes a unique kind of temperament, right? Like to choose to pull your kids out of school, when it's illegal, is a kind of person. And so what you wind up with are these Mavericks. And sometimes, that's what it takes to start a movement. But today, homeschooling has been around, you know, for 40 years in the mainstream or modern version of homeschooling. And so yes, we've solved the socialisation problem if there ever was one, and we understand how to be in community with people who go to school, I'm always urging homeschoolers to feel less defensive to admit the limits of what homeschooling is, because we don't have to be so protective of it anymore. It is now mainstream enough that we can talk about it. Honestly, both its strengths and even its weaknesses. I love that. Sometimes I daydream about what it would be like to homeschool my kids because I'm a working mom. And I think, Gosh, that will be so fun if I could design their curriculum and really direct their learning in a joyful, adventurous way as your as your book describes. So I think it's so cool that you actually did it. Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, I really loved it. And honestly, because so many people work now and want to homeschool or want to have a hand in their children's education, I think we need to keep expanding the options of what that looks like, you know, my mother did not homeschool me. But so much of what I understand about learning came through my mother's leadership and guidance. So she was very invested in giving us exposure to symphonies and going to plays and getting outside into nature. In the summers, she read aloud to us every single day, she used to do math flashcards, and we would play games. For my writing life. My mother is a professional author of over 70 books in her life. And when she would encourage me when I was reading an assignment for school, so much of her spirit of support, and curiosity and enthusiasm, guided my writing as a young person. And so I was a little bit immune to the red pen of school. And that's something anyone can provide to their children, whether their kids are in school or not. So that's why I say having a more deliberate attitude about the richness of learning, as opposed to being obsessed with how your child is performing in school, can enrich any child's life. And it's critical today, when we have so many performance standards, as though that's the only metric worth paying attention to in a child's life. It's just not true. And as you're describing your mother, you must have really connected I mean, all of that guidance and attention and thought that she put into raising you, you must really feel connected to her. So connected. Yeah, we're so close today, we've always been. But part of what she did is she really opened my eyes as a young child and into my teen years, that there was a lot to explore a lot to know that all of it was accessible to me. And I realised I had a lot of privilege growing up, my parents had money. I remember when my kids were being raised, we did not have money, I was a stay at home mom and I was married to someone whose income was either entrepreneurial, or it was in the ministry, it was at university level, all very poor paying positions. And so we had to be a lot more innovative to create those opportunities, but they do exist for everyone if you know, to provide them. But a lot of parents are busy, sort of managing the logistics of the family more than being intentional about big, juicy conversations. Like when you watch a movie together on video, do you talk about it? Do you ask them? Well, how did we know to root for her? How come we're not rooting for Jafar? And Aladdin? Like, where did that come from? How did we all just as a group, no, he's the bad guy, what clues were there? These are the kinds of conversations you can have whether your kids are in school or not. And they do so much to enrich their learning experience. So I think that's a good segue into describing your new book, How to Raise critical thinkers. So how can we raise children that are critical thinkers? What is your advice? I really want to talk about the read experience and counters. Oh, good. Let's start there. That'll start there. Yeah. So there are three ways we gather information to ourselves in order to form opinions or beliefs or to make decisions in our lives. And the first way is through reading. Now, school has taught all of us that reading is the key to a great education. And it is. But reading is also incredibly safe, you make assumptions, because all you have is print in front of you, you haven't actually been to the country ever been a war veteran have never had an abortion. So you're just reading almost like, I don't know, avoid, avoid, you're just peering into somebody else's experience without putting anything of yourself at risk. Reading, however, is the quickest way to get the most information quickly. And so we will continue to rely on it. Here's the thing. Imagine that you wanted to learn about the violin? And you decided to do it only through reading? You read? How violins made? Who the great composers? Are, you read all about the kinds of music written for the violin, you read about the history of the instrument? Could you say you had a complete understanding of the violin? Just from reading? No, what do you think? No. What's missing? Oh, my goodness, how to play the violin. Yes, listening to the violin. Like when it grew. Yes, if you exactly. If you have never been to a concert, never been to a bluegrass bar where you're listening to a fiddle. Another kind of violin, you have incomplete understanding. And that's what I would call experience experience is when you involve the five senses of your body. So you read a recipe, that's one level, you cook the food, now you're having an experience, eating it is a whole other level. Violin, if you put the violin in my hand, that's even different than just listening. The third level, then reading experience, an encounter, encounter is an experience that changes the power differential in your relationship. So whereas reading and experiences are usually meaningfully under your control, you know, I can go to a symphony and listen, doesn't require more than driving in a car and sitting in a chair. But if you put a violin in my hand, I suddenly feel out of control, I don't know how to play. And learning to play is really a commitment. It's not something I can do in just two or three minutes. And it alters everything I understand about violin for the rest of my life. Another example is like reading about a country visiting as a tourist experience. And finally moving there, and mastering the language and making it your home. That's encounter. I remember in your book, in Brave learner, you talked about going to little Saigon, and I thought that was a brilliant idea to read about Vietnam. And then actually take your kids to an area in your city where there are Vietnamese, eat the food there, talk to people there, learn about their experiences, it's definitely on our to do list. That's fabulous. I told my husband about your experience. And so we made a list of some areas in LA that we want to go with different, different cultures. So we're gonna go to El Vera Street, which is where there's a big Latino community, we want to go to the Chinatown has a Filipino community. So we, we, we were inspired by your book. And I think it's going to really lead to great experiences for our kids and for us to learn as well. 100%, I grew up in Los Angeles and went to all those places. And it really did give me this hunger to see the world that's part of I think, what led me to want to live abroad and study abroad. And my kids dad, he was a Peace Corps volunteer when we first met. And then we both lived in Morocco for a number of years. And so our goal was to raise global citizens, because there's nothing that will alter your assumptions more than discovering their other meaningful ways to live in the world that do not align with how you were raised. And so today, I have a daughter who's married to a Mexican and lives in Mexico, I have a son who lives in Central Africa and works for the UN. And all my kids have either studied or travelled abroad. In fact, my kids dad, and I joke all the time that our goal was global citizens, but we overachieved we didn't, I was just gonna, like, move away. As you're right. As you're describing this, I'm thinking, Gosh, I want my kids to be well rounded, but I do want them to selfishly stay close to me when they grow up, but Oh, my God, it happens. That's right. I think what I love about your attitude and passion is that you, you see the big picture, I feel like to you, when I hear you talk, it's not about you know, studying for the test for this week. It's more about what kind of child we want to raise. We want to raise lifelong learners filled with joy, that get the most out of life. And I really, first of all, I really appreciate that about you. I think that's such a wonderful quality And I think what I learned from you with my kids is, I'm so fearful that they will go to school and be bored, or be turned off to being educated. Because to me education, you know, I want to I want them to be lifelong learners. I value education so much. And so I guess I could share with one example, my daughter came home from school last week, and she said, Mommy, I'm really bored. In history. We're learning about Babylon. And it's so boring. And, you know, she's telling me this, and I'm reading your book, and I'm thinking, how can I make this interesting for her? So, you know, I tried, we went on YouTube, and we watched a video about Babylon and it wasn't doing it for her, she still was bored. I mean, it sometimes it's just a mismatch, right? It's a moment where her interest hasn't been piqued. But if I were to see that kind of situation occur in my family, I might move as quickly as I can to something that is in engaging her actual body. So I share a story in the brave learner of a junior high teacher I had that was so fabulous. She was teaching us about the Aztecs, and we were learning about their pottery, and she had us try to match the designs of the pottery, like painting it on an actual clay pot that we shaped ourselves. She had it fired. And then we came to school, and it was sitting on our desks next to a hammer, she said, Alright, it's time to smash your pots that you just fired. And we were like, what, but then, you know, once you're smashing them, you're just so happy because you're in seventh grade, and smashing something you made is like, amazing. And then she scooped each pot into a little box, and said nothing. She really maximise this surprise, mystery, risk and adventure axis that I love to talk about. And a few days later, we came back to class, and she said, All right, we're going on an archaeological dig. And we went out into Malibu Canyon where my school was, with shovels, they wouldn't let you do that today, I'm sure but in the 70s, they still did. And we made our own little archaeological dig parties, and we dug up our own, you know, vases and bowls that we had made. And they were differentiated by cardboard layers, and we had to identify like, what strata they were in. And then we came back and turn them into a museum display, we reassembled our little pots and put up the little cards. Now, that's a lot of work. And I don't expect most parents to do that. But what I took from it at the time, and the reason I still remember it today, is that it was something that involved doing, it was something that involved me, there is so much passive communication around information that just has no relevance to children. So whenever you can think of reproducing something artistic, or making something with their own hands or eating food from the region. So for Babylon, that's so long ago, what I might want to do is show the name of the country it is today and see if I can trace backwards, what other countries were there in between? And what is the thread that is similar? And what is just similar? What is change? Do we have any family relatives that might have been from that region, like starting to ask those questions? And making it more personal, if possible? Yes. And I actually did that. We pulled up the map. And then we saw her fit, you know, where, where, where it would have been today by Iraq and Iran. And we looked at the Yes, Tigris River and beautiful, you know, what, what made me nervous, she said, Mom, I still find history boring. And so I don't know how you feel about that when a kid says something's boring. Some people say it's good to be bored. But I have a hard time with the idea that it's ever good to be bored. I know this a popular thing, let them be bored, and then their creativity will surge. But I have a different perspective than that. Here's what I think when a kid tells you they're bored. They're actually communicating something different than boredom. They're saying right now, there are no resources available to me, that stimulate my imagination. They're asking for support in stimulating their imagination. So when a child says they're bored by history, they're bored by history, because it has no connection, no meaningful use to them, their hearing words, it feels distant, it doesn't have any meaningful purpose. When we're teaching history, and I talk about this a little bit in the brave learner, I see it like concentric circles. And the first place to start is actually with your child's own history. So you start with looking at a day in the life. One thing we used to do when we had cameras that weren't digital, is I had my kids take pictures all day, and then I would get them developed. And by the time they came back two or three weeks later, I'd asked them if they could put those pictures in the proper timeline sequence. And they had a hard time remembering, we would start to say, Well, what do you notice about this picture like this person is you're brushing your teeth. How do you know if that's morning or evening? Can you tell by The clothing you're wearing? Can you tell by the lighting? Can you tell by your facial expression? Can you tell by what you're doing in that bathroom? Who's with you or not? What are the clues that help you create the historical context to make you analyse this picture to know when it happened? So we start giving them the tools of historical inquiry, as opposed to just telling them information they have to master for a test. And so if we were looking at Babylon, I might say, how could they know any of this? Like, where does that start and give them that first their own person, then their family, then their community, then their state, then their country, like it expands out in concentric circles, and we want to help them know what it feels like to investigate, but they never get that opportunity. all they get is somebody delivering conclusions, and just hearing people deliver conclusions is boring for everyone. So true, I'm just and I couldn't help but remember when I was in sixth seventh grade and having those same feelings? Yes. I was a history major in college. And I had those feelings in high school, because of the way it was taught. But by the time I got a college, yes, by the time I got to college, I was like, actually, no, I do want to know what's been going on for all of time with humanity. I am kind of interested in that. Yes, true. Now I find it interesting now I'm Wow, this was the first civilization let's How did this happen? How did this come to be? How do they make communities had they come up with a language and a banking system and agriculture? But it's incredible. In fact, have you ever heard of Sister Wendy Beckett and the story of painting? No, ho, Jessica, here's something you can do right now. On YouTube sister, Wendy Beckett is this nun with a Cockney accent and buck teeth from the UK. She's no longer with us. But she recorded these videos in the 1980s for PBS. So they're just fabulous BBC produced. And what she does is she traces the journey of artwork from the beginning of time, all the way to the modern era. And she starts with the caves in France, where there are these paintings on the walls, and it is our first record of people painting images to communicate a story. And the artwork is shockingly beautiful. It makes you realise, holy cow, this has been going on for a long time, humans made this flip. And I watched them. I didn't require my kids to watch them. I just put them on right in the middle of the day, I'd be like, you know, go play, I'm gonna watch this. And they made their ways over, they wanted to see the ancient Egyptian temples with all of the hieroglyphics and the paintings. And we developed a real love for artwork through that series. That is a way of accessing history. Through art. You could access history through food, you could access history through music. Sometimes what we are giving our kids is just battles and civilization conquer things. Instead of like what makes life personal. Right? Funny you say that? Because that's exactly what she said to me. She goes, Mommy, I find battles and war. So not interesting, awful. They're the worst part of history. I was just watching All Quiet on the Western Front. That is a German produced film that's up for awards this year. And I had to stop two thirds of the way through it was so stressful, and so upsetting. To think about work, even though we need to know about it like to know that's happening in Ukraine right now. trench warfare and to watch it and to just realise how upsetting that is. And yet history is more than just battles won and fought. That's such a sort of an empire oriented way to talk about history. I think American Girl dolls by pleasant T. Rowland did such an amazing job of showing young girls, hey, when there was a child in the 1860s, she had the same dreams and hopes and wishes and dislikes and Spats with her mother that you're having. And it just happens that the backdrop was the Civil War era. But she was a human being like you. I think that's one of the ways we tap into history for our kids. Absolutely. The more you can make it relatable. I think the more interesting it is 1,000% A big question that comes up a lot that I think is on the minds of a lot of us a lot of us parents is with all the social media and media and screens around. How do we compete, you know, if we want to teach our kids how to learn how to write and how to read and how to enjoy history, how can we compete with social media? Gosh, in a way, I think we have to always look at the newest technologies and ask what they offer us first. I think there's just a natural reluctance and reticence around new technology because we don't know what it might do to us and so we get nervous about it. But you know, social media probably here to stay the internet death We're here to stay live streaming here to stay online gaming here to stay. So I like to make friends with technology and not be too antagonistic. I recommend playing the games that your kids play with them or watching them the same way you would go to a soccer game and watch them play soccer. You know, watching kids, for instance, play T ball could not be more boring. I went to my son Liam's chess matches and watched them play chess, you know how boring that is. You've got like this little chess piece and the most exciting move is the horse because you don't know if it's gonna go right or left, right, like, and it's silent. You don't even get to cheer. You just have to be quiet. So if I have the patience to do that, can I sit and watch my kid play Mario Kart? Or Roblox or Minecraft? Yes, yes, I can. So I recommend doing that admiring their leader board noticing the skills they're developing. And then using that as a launching pad. Talk about wow, you know, you're building this with Roblox. There are so many ways to build. There are Lego kits, they're building with blocks, there are all kinds of kits that even use electricity. What else do we want to build? What other kinds of constructions could we make that are physical that we hold in our hands, a lot of times we ask our kids to get off the screens to go sit on a couch, like we don't give them anything worth getting off the computer for i I know, you're a paediatrician, but one of my joking suggestions is if you want your kid off the computer, hand them a book of matches and tell them to start a fire in the backyard, they will get off the computer. So give them something worthy. I'm not saying in LA to start a fire do not hear me say that. But what I am saying is they should have another machine or another activity that gives rise to that level of I'm sophisticated. I'm competent, I'm taking a risk and a meaningful adventure. And that's part of the way that we compete. We give them something worth doing. You know, the KitchenAid mixer, a power drill, a hammer and nails, a sewing machine, a welding machine, a weaving loom, things that actually make use of that big imagination and the desire to get their hands on something. I love that use the word risk because I think parents were intuitively we want our kids to learn and grow and take risks. But it's so scary. You did something to hurt themselves. Truly, I'm glad that you you mentioned that because I think it's true. Yeah, and you know, we just want Yes, we don't want them to fall and break an arm. But like, I had a kid who would not walk on the ground. He was always on an eight foot wall climbing a tree climbing out the window onto the roof. I could not stop him. And at a certain point, I had to realise he was testing his own competency and he tends to be really physically competent. By the time he was 18. He was an urban gymnast, he was jumping off two storey buildings and flipping over handrails. So sometimes it's also recognising who your child is, and giving them meaningful ways to grow that competency. So I took him to indoor rock climbing. I'm like this kid, he needs to learn, you know how to use his body and feel competent. And I think that's, that's part of the role of a parent. It's not just being afraid. It's increasing their competencies and their sense of self reliance. That really helps. Absolutely. And it's funny, you mentioned rock climbing my son. We went rock climbing at a birthday party two weeks ago. And ever since he's gone rock climbing. He told me he can't stop thinking about it. He had so much fun. And all of a sudden my mind you know, my paediatrician mind goes into him taking weekend trips to Yosemite doing really risky climbs, I saw that terrible documentary. Oh my gosh. Well, just and I should tell you, I broke my ankle indoor rock climbing, I fell off a bouldering wall in 1970. I mean, in 2017, and I actually broke my ankle. So if there are risks as part of this, right, people will fall they will but should they not do it? Should they not? Should we just stay bubble wrapped in our houses? So we do the best we can we give as much protection. I was being too risky. I had not taken a class. I got up too high. I thought I knew what I was doing based on being a gymnast when I was 16. And here I was 57. No, Julie, you should have taken a class. I appreciate your zest for life and for getting out there. So okay, so So, so sort of to summarise for parents, I think looking for education, not just in the classroom, but we can look for experiences with a little bit of risk. That might make it more appealing for kids to put their screens away and actually get out there and live. Yeah, and if you will, excuse me, let me say that again. It will revitalise you as well, because we're all too screen oriented. I mean, we're sitting there scrolling on our phones, while we're watching television, right double screening all the time. What would it feel like to just turn off the TV for an evening and play board games, or have everybody make their own pan pizzas, and you listen, let's say to an audio book, or you listen to music, during the pandemic, my boyfriend, and I would just pick a new genre of music and stick that into Spotify. And we would make food and listen to this music that we knew nothing about. And that was a way to just do something completely different. You know, if you think back to the lockdown, how many of us suddenly were doing puzzles, and we hadn't done them in ages, it's giving yourself the opportunity to participate with your kids, it will actually enliven your life to something else that you described in your book that's made a difference for me and my family is the scatter book. Can you explain to people listening what a scatter book is? Yeah, well, Drew confession to start. I think I might be ADHD, I've never thought about it. Until this year, my son who has ADHD is like, Mom, I think you have it. And I took a bunch of tests online, and they came back severe. So it might be true. So just take that for what it's worth. But here's why I have something I call a scatter book. When I was around the early years of my homeschooling experience, I needed a place to record what we were doing, how to plan how to be in charge of the day. And I tried really hard to follow a schedule and use a calendar, and then very quickly realised it could not sustain it. I am driven a lot by inspiration by imagination, and by the random associations I make after a deep dive of research. And I used to not give myself credit for actually having this spontaneous idea that went well, because I thought, if I hadn't planned it in advance, it didn't count. And one day, I realised, actually, no, I'm doing all this investment. And then it's just popping out at an appropriate time with the right conditions, I could start putting these into a notebook and keep track. And then I realised, wow, I don't know how to organise this notebook. And I decided it didn't matter if I organised it, I could use the book in any way I wanted, it could have a scattering of thoughts, ideas, and experiences. So this book started to include my favourite quotes from books I was reading, it has lists of movies that I had watched with the kids and that I wanted to watch. I kept track of every book we ever read together, I wrote down every book I was reading, I wrote down all the books I wanted to read, I would write these narratives about my kids. So if one of them was struggling with reading, I would write a paragraph about what I observed that day. And then three months later, I would reread that and see where we were on this new day. And I'd write another one. And I would use that to show myself that progress was occurring, so that I didn't beat myself up for feeling like I wasn't doing it right, or I wasn't doing enough. So the scattered book became this catch all for field trip ideas, and receipts and lists and little reflections and keeping track of activities that I had thought of spontaneously that didn't make it in advance to the calendar. I'm loving it, because I will think of things that I want to expose my kids to, I've been using it for, you know, a song that I liked that I want to play them a band that I've liked in the past a place I want to visit a movie I want to watch. And I love this list, because then at the end of the day, when I have some time with them, I have direction, and I can and I can look at that and remind myself what it is I want to expose them to. Exactly. And a lot of what we struggle with is exhaustion, right? So your kids, you've worked all day your kids have been at school all day, it is really easy to just default to everybody goes to their screens or their rooms and we just kind of recover. But if you have the inspiration already laid out for you, then you even have something as a third party, that triangle into the relationship. Sometimes it feels very unnerving to a child to say, here's what we're going to do. And they're like, I don't want to do that. But if you show them a list, you're like, I have these three or four things I wrote down do any of these appeal to you? Well, now it's the list that they're talking to not you and it gives them a chance to have some discretion and opinions. I love it. It does. That's it offers inspiration. Where can people find you? So I have a website that is for my company brave writer.com So if you need support with writing online classes, whatever we have those both of my books are available anywhere and they each have their own book website with a free download if you'd like it. I am very active on Instagram. Julie Brave Writer is my account and I have a pod cast so you can throw a rock in any direction and it will probably hit me. And thank you for what you do. I think it is amazing, honestly. Thank you. I think it took a lot of bravery. And I admire it because I wish I could do something like that with my kids. If I didn't work, I think you're already doing it. Just value what you are doing what an intentional mother, they are so lucky to have you. And the role modelling of working is also super valuable. Don't underestimate the power of that. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you for listening. And I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Ask Dr. Jessica. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr. Jessica See you next Monday.