Ep 108: Chaos to connected--Helping parents navigate challenging behavior with connection, with Kaili Zeiher

Episode 108 of Ask Dr Jessica with Kaili Zeiher.  Kaili is a pediatric occupational therapist and mom of three, and she hosts a podcast called "Chaos to connected".  Kaili started her podcast because she was struggling with her son's behavior, and she found  using traditional discipline, with consequences, bribes and punishment just wasn't effective.  She uses a  parenting technique, called "Hand in Hand parenting", which focuses on helping our kids behavior improve through connection .   If you are a parent who feels frustrated by parenting,  I think you will find Kaili's podcast and instagram to be a helpful resource. 

Check out her podcast
And on Instagram: kaili. zeiher

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

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Today's guest is Kaylee zire and Kaylee is a paediatric occupational therapist. She's a mom of three, and she hosts a parenting podcast called chaos to connect. Kaylee started her podcast because she was struggling with her son's behaviour. And she found that traditional discipline strategies, like using timeouts, consequences, bribes and punishment simply weren't doing the trick. So after much research, she discovered a parenting technique called Hand in Hand parenting, which focuses on using connection to help improve our children's behaviour. So if you're a parent who often feel stuck and frustrated because your child has challenging behaviours, I think you will find Kaley incredibly relatable, and a very helpful resource. Thank you so much for listening to ask Dr. Jessica. I know you all live such busy lives. And it really means so much that you take the time to listen. So, Kaylee, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. I love your podcasting. That's actually how I Found You was by listening to your podcast. Why don't we start off? Can you tell the audience tell us about yourself, what you do for a living and what inspired you to start a podcast? Yeah, thanks so much for having me. So I am a paediatric occupational therapist. And ever since my first was born, I wanted to be home with him. I really absolutely love being a paediatric OT and working with families. But I just wanted to be able to be home. And so when I was pregnant with our second I came to the conclusion of opening a in home daycare, because I felt like this was kind of the easiest way to still use my skills as an OT and be with my kids. And so when I did that, there was a lot of challenge that I didn't expect from my oldest. A lot of behaviour came out a lot of intense emotions, a lot of aggressive behaviour, that was just not our experience. He wasn't aggressive at other daycares just with kids in general with us. And it was really challenging. I mean, you can imagine just having, you know, six kids three and under is challenge of itself. But then when you add in lots of emotion, and the the fact that was I literally couldn't take my eyes off him, because there would be times where you'd be playing with the kids and having fun. And I would look away, and I'd hear somebody crying. And I literally had to just keep my focus on Him all the time, essentially, like be within reach all the time, because I just never knew when he was going to get upset. And obviously we don't want our kids hurting other kids. But especially when you're never have either, you know, you don't want the other kids going home and being like, you know, her kid hurt me. And so, I just came to a point where I realised like, not only did I not want to feel so overwhelmed, and like looking forward to when my husband would be home so I could just escape and be alone. But I also didn't want to continue down this path where I knew, you know, I knew my son was really struggling, like I knew he didn't want to hurt anybody. And I knew he felt bad. But he couldn't figure out what to do. And so I had been listening to a podcast that was really on connection focus strategy. So I had tried all of the OT things that I taught other families, you know, teaching to create calming spaces, and like adjusting it like, Oh, do you want to be further away from the kids? Or do you want to be like over here and just like really trying to teach him calming strategies and incorporate those. And it just wasn't working. And that was really challenging for me. Because, you know, this is what I had been teaching people and it wasn't working, they say that you're given the kids that you can handle. And I always find it interesting when you get a challenge that specifically in the field that you are professionally. So how interesting like you're a paediatric OT. And you you might think, Oh, I'm expected to handle this difficult child or a behaviorally difficult kid easily because that's my field, but it's the opposite. Right? It really challenges you. Yeah. And, and I just, it was especially challenging, because the the tools, you know, it just wasn't working. And I couldn't figure out like, well, this is like what I know to do, and it's not working, and just kind of evaluating, you know, just all of the experiences that I had in the past and not that this, the programmes I was teaching and stuff can't be helpful. But what I came to find out so we did hire this person as a coach, and it just completely transformed our lives. It changed how I saw behaviour, how I understood it, I think behaviour is taught in kind of one way. And I think for the most part, it's the wrong way. And we just go with it because there's there's not a lot of this information readily available. And so after we did that coaching and things just really changed used for him. And for me, I decided to do a professional training in this parenting style because I wanted to be able to help other families, because it was really hard to find, maybe now you can, but when I was looking, it was much more difficult. And so then, after I did the training, I wanted to get this information, you know, out to people. And so that's when the podcast, you know, kind of came about, it felt like a good avenue to be able to share tips with families just more quickly. And in a way, especially for moms, you know, like, you don't just sit down and have all this time to read blogs. And I mean, maybe some do. But for the most part, I find you know, you're busy doing stuff. And a podcast is something that you can get lots of great information from, but be doing other things, making meals, or driving in the car or whatever, and kind of include it so it doesn't feel like another thing you have to do when you're already feeling overwhelmed by all of the things that you're doing. Okay, so I have so many questions from what you just mentioned. The first is, what was the coach that you found? And what were the strategies that you found were wrong? Like, what what were the strategies that you that you look back and realise weren't weren't good for your child. So the the coach that we hired, she is trained in hand in hand parenting, which is more of a connection, focused style parenting. So I then took a training also in that parenting style. So what she basically walked us through, were the four connection strategies. There's four for kids, and then one for parents. So she kind of walked us through each of those, and kind of guided us how to implement them, just into our specific situation. And what I came to really learn and what I like to share with parents, and in my coaching is I guide them through the connection strategies. We also work on learning how to manage your own triggers. And for a long time, I was like, you know, what came first, the chicken or the egg managing your triggers or your child's behaviour. And I really believe that a lot of the issue is us. And our triggers and what we come to parenting with. And, you know, let's not like to shame or guilt anybody. But I think there's just such a lack of awareness in the fact that we are pre conditioned based on our childhood and experiences that we've had, in how we come to our parenting and how we deal with intense situations and situations in general. And because it's just such such a subconscious response, we don't often take the time to reflect or have the opportunity in the moment to change it. And so really helping parents learn how to manage their own triggers is a really key component. So I have a question for you. This is something that comes up a lot at work, I get a lot of parents that are concerned because their children will have aggressive outbursts or emotional outbursts. And the parents don't know how to respond in the moment. It's very frustrating for everybody. And I would love to hear from you. What are your tips for parents? Because I think, yes, in theory, we all know that we should stay calm and try to help our triggers. But the truth is, I find that in the moment, it's really, really hard for us. So do you have any tips for parents that they can do when we're in the moment when our kids are acting out and having outbursts? Yeah, so if you want, I can speak to kind of both things. But aggression is the reason that I came to this parenting. So I love sharing tips about it. I think it's really difficult, right? Like, we don't want our kids hurting other kids. But for me, especially, it was triggering, because when I was a child, you know, I had a sibling who was aggressive to me. And so not only was I seeing how my parents responded, but I was on the other end of it. So it brought up all these feelings that I didn't even realise I was still holding on to. So you know, one of the biggest things is we really do need to work on identifying our triggers and processing things. Outside of that. What I always try to do is encourage people and encourage parents to try to look at the perspective of their child. And especially if your child is more aggressive. Oftentimes, aggression stems from fear. So a lot of times this happens, like starts happening when a sibling is born, or a sibling gets old enough that they are, you know, they're not on the baby stage anymore, and they're kind of coming into their own. And so kids really do have a hard Time with that transition. And so just really thinking about like, this is a lot bigger for our kids, then then people will tell us. And just remembering that there's more here like the the behaviour that I'm seeing is communication, that there's something else going on at a deeper level. And when you can pull back and say, like, my child is just feeling really fearful or really overwhelmed, it kind of brings you back to reality. Like, this isn't about me, this is about my child, and he or she doesn't quite know what to do here. And do you bring that up with your child? Do you say, you know, do you feel scared right now? Would that help defuse a situation? So it would be more something that I would think in my mind, remind myself, that aggression generally stems from fear. It's either fear, or it's just our natural human response, right? Like, that's why so many guys will punch a wall when they're mad. It's just kind of what happens as humans. But a lot of times for kids, especially younger kids, they haven't processed a lot of these big feelings that they're storing up. And so it comes out in aggressive behaviour. So I think the main thing is just reminding yourself of that perspective, I'm not so much worried that they're like, oh, yeah, she knows I'm frustrated. I'm more concerned with how can I support them and let them get in this process of actually processing the feelings that they have. Because either they will know what they're feeling, or they will be able to learn that. So I really don't do a lot of, or really any labelling of feelings. Like if you're going to try to kind of validate your child's feelings, what I think of more as being in conversation, you know, like, my child is screaming, because brother took a toy. So instead of saying, Well, I see you're really frustrated that he took your toy or something, I would say, that's really hard. There's lots of accounts that will give you these scripts to say, and not that there's anything wrong with that. But we're not going to have a script for everything. And I think we just need to remember our kids are people, they're just little littler versions. And what would you say to somebody, like, if you were listening to a friend, you know, who's really upset? Would you say, Oh, I see you're really frustrated? You know, or would you be like, yeah, that's terrible. You know, like, how would you relate to them? And, and we shouldn't really feel like we need to do anything different towards our kids, we just might, you know, that language might be simpler. I appreciate that point. Because you're saying, real life is not so scripted. So just using real language, authentic language as if you're talking to a friend, it's so much easier, you know, like, in the moment, you're not going to be like, oh, yeah, what did she say to say? Or have the time to go look it up? Right? Or maybe they haven't shared this specific situation. But if you're sitting there thinking, like, how would I just respond, you know, like, just be a person. And then it's not so hard. I've heard you talk about this on your podcast before, how important is to hold space for your children's feelings. And I think that's a really nice point. Because I think so often parents, we want to fix or end the bad behaviours. And often when we do that, it doesn't work. Like I think about one time, we took family pictures, you know, once a year, we'll take family pictures, or maybe it's every other year, but we hired a professional photographer to take our pictures and my youngest had a tantrum. And I said, please stop crying. We have a professional photographer here to take our picture, we only have a half an hour with this photographer. And when I was stirring with her about stopping crying, it only made it worse. She only cried more. So now looking back, you know, we have family pictures that year where she's crying the whole time. And now I look at it like a nice memory. But looking back, I wish I wasn't so strong with her. I wish I was more relaxed, held some space for her emotions. And then it always ends up okay, no matter. You know, no matter how you look at it, it's either a memory or eventually the tantrum ends. But I do think parents, it's a good lesson to learn that we don't have to. We don't have to fix the emotions. It's not forever. It's okay. I think that, you know, we just don't want our kids to feel uncomfortable. But in not wanting that we're actually creating more discomfort by not just allowing them to have feelings, they're actually learning to bottle them. And so just coming at it from the perspective of I think so much of us have been taught crying is bad. Like, maybe somebody didn't, like your parent didn't say, crying is bad, but they often tried to get you to stop crying. And while we think that's helpful, it's actually communicating to your child that you're not okay with a crying and so eventually They learn, okay, crying is not good. And a lot of times parents will say they're okay with crying, but what they're actually doing is trying to distract away, or like, oh, you know, let's just go over here and do this other thing. And I would say like, if you're in this situation, you know, like, when you only have 30 minutes, I don't think it's, it's not bad to just do this, whatever, you know, that like gets the results in the moment. But then recognising later on when you have the opportunity, because there's always going to be the opportunity, right, then actually allowing time to hold space for the emotions, especially if you're experiencing a child who has really challenging behaviour, or is aggressive, or just maybe has a mini meltdown all day long. They're really showing that there's stuff to work through. And the other thing that I like, to just kind of bring to people's attention is a lot of times, at this young, like younger ages, we are told, like send them to their room, like go Calm down, and when you're calm, come back out. But then when they get to teenage years, you know, we're like to share what's what's going on? What's the problem, you know, but we've spent all this time teaching them, we're not okay with these big feelings. I mean, we're probably not thinking that, but this is what we're communicating to our child. We're not okay with the big feelings. So don't, don't come back until you've contained them. And that's really going to be hard to reverse down the line. And so I think just reminding yourself of those things, like, what do you really want right now? Is it you want a child whose heart isn't hurting? And feels they can come to you in a safe? Yes, no. And I think I think you're absolutely right, that in the moment, sometimes it's hard to hear those big emotions. And you're right, maybe it's because of how we were raised, thinking that emotions and crying are bad things. But if you let your child vent, or even, we can picture a friend venting, it doesn't last forever, I think it's important to recognise that these big feelings aren't going to go on indefinitely. And then when everything's over, everybody feels better. And I think that's something to remind yourself, also of if you're really struggling, is, you know, have you ever just been so stressed like little things kind of pile up and you can take the little things? And then maybe your husband says something that's really not that big of a deal, but it just sends you over the edge? It's because you've been containing all these things, you haven't been processing them, and then you have this maybe this big cry? How do you feel afterwards, you feel so good, even though probably nothing got resolved, nothing changed. But you feel like you can think better? You're like, Oh, that's easy. This is how I would solve that problem. You know, it's the same thing for our kids. We're trying so hard to help them not feel hurt. But by doing it, they're like, containing the hurt, you know, and so just reminding yourself how good you feel after you've, whether it's had a full on cry, or just had the opportunity to just offload like you had a hard day and you know, you offload it on your husband or a friend, you just feel lighter. And that's the gift you're giving your child? Yes, yes. Okay, so So just to summarise some of the points you've made so far, if our child is showing emotional dysregulation, aggressive behaviour, first, think about our own triggers, trying to manage our own feelings in the moment, giving them space to release their emotion. What other tips would you offer for families, so, um, the the one year holding space, I would just want to add in there, like it's supportive, you know, so maybe you're going into the room with your child while they're upset versus like, they go off to the room and calm down. The other two main ones that I want to mention that I think might be a little bit easier for parents, especially if they feel like they're struggling with triggers. The first one is called special time. So this is different than one on one time, one on one time is we're together, we're doing something but like, maybe the laundry needs to be switched. Or maybe I have to go stir supper or somebody calls. Special time is there's none of that you are fully focused with your child for a designated amount of time. Now you can choose that time, I we tend to do it anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes. But that is helpful because your child knows it's timed. This is like I'm your parent is fully engaged here. But also you as the parent know, like, I'm going to be fully engaged here. I'm not going to think about what's for supper. I'm not going to think about my to do list. I'm going to be engaged here for 1015 minutes, and then I'll have have the time to do the other things. The other part of special time that's unique is that it is your child's in control. And this is really helpful because kids don't often get to be in control. And we might try to give them more control by giving them choices. But it's just really different. When your child can be like, you have to play this, this is what we're gonna do. And it just that my kids love that. Yeah, it builds a lot of connection and safety and trust. And it's great for both parents to do. And it just gives your child just full on control that they don't often have. So is the feeling behind this, that if you spend time connecting with your child and sort of fill their cup up, that might defuse behaviour from happening in the future. So the idea really, behind these different connection strategies is that when our kids are connected, that prefrontal cortex of their brain is like, online, you can say. So where their judgement is reasoning, problem solving, I've noticed a lot of improvement in impulse control as well, they can just think better when they're connected. And there's so many things that disconnect them from us. Like, it doesn't mean we're doing anything wrong. But you know, if they go to school, if they go to daycare, that's disconnecting, sleeping is disconnecting. That's why you'll see a lot of kids have trouble before bedtime, because they know, they probably can't say, oh, I feel disconnected from you when I go to bed, you know, but they recognise this as time away. And especially if they're, you know, they don't have a lot of time in the morning with you or something like, depending on your child's sensitivity, that can be a big problem. So just the idea that connection really helps our kids to keep their brain like online. So they can, yes, essentially, have quote unquote, better behaviour. Learn what strategies help them for those moments when they need it. And you'll notice afterwards, they can go off and play and there's less, you know, maybe sibling conflict, or whining or complaining. That doesn't mean it's going to take behaviour away, right. But it is one component. It just builds that safety and trust with you, especially if you feel like you've been one to say like go to your room and come out when you're calm, this would be a good way to start building some of that trust that, you know, your feelings are okay here and that sort of thing. You know, what's funny is we have a puppy now a three month old puppy, and I can even see this relating to puppies, because I find that my dog, if I spend the day with her and give her attention, take her on walks really give her some pets, her behaviour is so much better on the whole during the day, but if I'm gone all day, and we haven't spent much time with her. And then like yesterday, I was going to work most of the day, and then I tried to get her to bed. And I can see that her behaviour was not as good as it's been in the days before. So I think it's true, that connection is so important to helping us feel safe and calm and regulated. Yeah, and I think, you know, I always try to bring it back to us because I think it's easier for us to relate to. But like think about, you know, if you're married, if your spouse and you'd like you're just kind of ships passing one goes to work and one comes home and you don't really have a lot of time together, you're feeling more and more disconnected. And then what happens? They say something that, you know, they didn't mean to be offensive, but you took offensive. And then there's arguments and more, more disconnection and it just keeps piling. It's the I mean, obviously, there's a little bit of difference there. But it's the same with our kids. And I think, you know, we need connection, like when we're born. That's, like our main basic need is connecting to our safe people, right? Absolutely. So, okay, so I want to I want to paint a picture for everybody. And I want to understand how you would actually handle this in the moment. Can you paint a picture for me step by step? What would you do if your child's in the moment showing aggressive behaviour? Yeah, so I prefer to bring my child into like his bedroom. Because, you know, for one, I think, well, we have wood floors. And so I just, it's easier for like safety reasons. I also like to bring into a room because I think that it's helpful when our child can truly have feelings and not be worried about other people that are around whether you're at home or somewhere else. I've done it and other people's homes as well. But it's also not then like impacting the other people. You know, like if somebody is just attacking somebody else, that is going to have an impact on other people. But one of the biggest reasons is safety and I can kind of control the situation a little bit better from a closed room. So often I would bring my child into the bed During close the door kind of sit in front of the door, or at least in a way where, you know, he can't like just run out. And my process throughout this time, then is just to work on gently blocking any aggression that he has towards me. And I think gently is a really important part, because a lot of times, you know, when we're experiencing challenging behaviour, we are triggered. And a lot of times, you know, it's not like we're gonna hit our kid, hopefully. But we might be moving them more forcefully or, you know, stopping them harder than we need to work kind of like containing them a little bit more than needs to happen. And what that's actually doing is reinforcing, when you're upset, be aggressive, right? Like, that is what we're doing, when we're upset. And when we're triggered, we're using physical force. That's what your child is also doing. And unfortunately, your child learns what to do when they're upset from what you do. You know, it's that whole mirror neuron thing, which we can talk about too. But so so we go into this room, I work on gently blocking, I mean, my My oldest is almost seven. So sometimes I do need to contain him a little bit more to be safe. And I don't think there's anything wrong with it if you're being gentle. But I will say, I'm going to keep us safe. And so my goal is not to exert my power, my goal is to help my child get to a point where they're processing their feelings, and recognise that they're safe, I can handle them. Even if they're trying to hurt me, like, that's not going to change how I feel about them. So I will really try as best I can to just block or, you know, stop. And then every now and then I might say, I'm just going to hold your arm and keep us both safe. And the goal is to get your child crying. I know that sounds kind of bad, but our child, especially if you're conditioned to think crying is bad. But when your child is acting out physically against you, they're not processing hurt, they're just physically trying to hurt you. When they get to the crying stage, that's how they're processing those deep feelings. And so really trying to sit there and continue this process, until tears start to come. Once tears come, then they've moved on from the aggression. And you can just kind of sit there. And supportively Listen, as they're crying. This is where you might, might I say, add in some supportive language. You know, like, I know, this is really hard. But if you don't know what to say, I would suggest just not saying anything. Because we just want to talk so much. It's just natural, like we want to solve, we want to help. But it just distracts from the moment, especially if you're like, What should I say? Like, what's the right thing to say? There's no right thing to say. It's really about how can I just help my child feel like their feelings are valid, and I am. I'm just here to listen to them and help them kind of process through it. When you talk about this. holding firm and then and then moving into tears. I think a couple of things. One is I think what a perfect podcast name that you have from chaos to connection, because that's that's just it right? You started off with a moment of chaos. And then all of a sudden with the tears comes that moment of connection. And I also thinking of that scene in Good Will Hunting where he did you see that movie? I have, but I'm not good at movies. So when Matt Damon is so strong and so stoic, and then all of a sudden, tears come and then you can see the connection happened between him and Minnie Driver. Anyways, that's a off topic, but I, I can picture that as definitely being true. Yeah, and you know, my kids will like, they'll lay on my lap, you know, like, they were just attacking me. And then they come and lay on my lap as they're crying. And it's just, it's hard. Like, there are times where it's still, it's still hard for me. And I still have to remind myself in the moment. But when you kind of have these experiences you're giving your child like I said before, this gift of emotional, like resilience or just learning how to actually have emotion. And that be okay, and telling your child you're safe. I think you're exactly right. I think there's that moment of connection, but also, they know that they can be safe crying with you, they can be safe showing their emotions with you and that it's okay, you're there for them still, and that you'll help them and I think something I also like to mention too, is you know, you're never gonna do it perfectly. So if you if you mess up you're trying and you get angry and you yell. Like the the thing that I love about this style of parenting is that it teaches you how to repair the connection because there's no way that we can just, every single time not be triggered. I mean, you know, even for me, I've been practice To sing these strategies every day with my own kids, for years, and there are still times where I know I'm saying something that you know, I quote unquote, shouldn't. But the idea is remembering, we're never going to do it perfectly every single time. And that's not the goal. The goal is really to just try to have the perspective from our child try to hold space. And when we messed up, I think sometimes it's good because our kids see like, my mom's not perfect, she loses her control, too. It's not just me. And then, you know, you're you can repair this connection, and say, you know, I'm really sorry, I lost control, too. And, you know, it's not your fault. It's something I'm working on. And so we don't have to feel like we have to do it right every time. No, absolutely. I think kids definitely benefit when they see parents as loving, but imperfect beings, because that's, that's real life. Yeah, and I mean, it doesn't mean like, Don't strive to do to not be triggered, or to work on these things. Like, I think that's really important. But when you do slip up, recognising, like, it's, it's just bound to happen. And it's, it's okay. The other thing I like to remind parents, when kids are having outbursts is that these emotions as intense and triggering as they might be, they don't last forever. So when kids have tantrums, eventually they will end even if it feels like Oh, my goodness, this is so overwhelming, this is going to be going on indefinitely. It's just not true, they eventually end. So the longer that we can stay calm, and just get through it calmly, the better it is for everybody. Yeah, and it's honestly like a light switch, you know, when you when your child is allowed to process through that tantrum, or the big feelings of crying afterwards, it's like, they're a different person. So happy. So engaged, so much better impulse control. Whereas if you're trying to, you know, help them solve it, and kind of interjecting and just trying to problem solve for them and reason for them, they're going to come back to this tantrum, again, probably not too much longer, because they haven't resolved what they were trying to process. Their brain knows what is coming up and what needs to be worked out. And when they're little, they're good at it. It's true. If you're making me think I remember as a child, my dad could tell me the few times he cried in his adult life, you know, he'd say, Oh, I've only cried two times that I remember when my grandma died when my mom died. That's it. As if saying, crying that few of times is a good thing. So you're right, I think I'm probably not alone, being raised like that, that crying was equated with maybe a weakness or not not a good thing to do. But it is a healthy release of emotions. Well, and especially if you're a guy, right, you know, like, that's what you're taught, be strong, Don't be weak, crying is weak. And yeah, it's just, it's not true. crying. Crying is a process that we all it's just, it's so freeing, when you can just allow your feelings to happen. And just quickly, you know, some of the things that I came to parenting with is perfectionism. Lots of people pleasing. One of the things that I shared on a different podcast is, you know, my husband would come home, he's a construction worker. And I can remember days when he would come home, and I know he was tired, like, he just not his like upbeat personality. And instead of thinking, he just got home from work, he's really tired. I would think I did something wrong. What did I do wrong? I'm not good enough. And now, like, I because I have worked on resolving my own triggers and healing things from, you know, my past, that's not even a thought, you know, like, he comes home. And he's not his upbeat personality, and like, oh, he just worked outside, you know, 100 day, eight hours, that has nothing to do with me. And so I think the benefit of learning how to manage your triggers and work through them and allowing not just your kids emotions, but your own as an adult, helps in all of your relationships, not just your parenting, but I've seen such an impact in in all areas of relationships, too. I mean, the lesson of not taking things personally, gosh, if you can master that. You'll live a life you live, you live a Zen life. So I think the hardest time I have as a parent when my kids have outbursts is when it's done in public. When I think about times where it's really hard for me to know how to respond. It's when I feel like other people are looking at me. Do you have any advice for how parents should respond in public or is the answer just to not worry about other people and just stay true to the tenants that we talked about before? The main thing that I like to advise is to remember what what your goal is, we think other people are judging us, when they're probably just like, they probably been through it too. And so what I really tried to focus on is, I'm focused and care more about my child's heart than I care about the random person I'm never going to see again, and what they think about me. The other thing that I like to encourage people is that you might be showing somebody how to hold space for a child, how to actually respect and treat a child like an actual person that they've never seen before. And they might be like, Wow, I like that is good. You know, like, you could be the example for somebody to just change their whole perspective, I would also say, if it's something that's really stressful for you, and you just can't do that, bring them out, like, drop your things, go to the car, have the tantrum there in the quiet, or if you can go to a separate room, this could be helpful for both you and the child, you know, if the child is like, there's people staring at me, and that's really stressful. And also, if you feel like you cannot listen, without being triggered. This is another time where I think, you know, I don't promote, don't promote bribing, or consequences or that sort of thing. But sometimes as a parent, we do what we need to do, to get to where we need to go, and then recognising, okay, I didn't let my child work through that tantrum, because this is the time I have to get the groceries, I can't afford to leave the store right now, or I can't spend 30 minutes in the car working through it, like we have to do this now. Maybe you give them a sucker. And then later on, you allow the processing to happen and you still work through it. It's just not in this bubble, that feels really stressful for both of you. So I think it's really just about where you're at, and what you can realistically, handle in that moment. It's such a good point, because it's true, we owe it to our kids, our kids are our priority, as you said, their heart is our priority. So as much as I want to be a good citizen and be mindful of my neighbours, you're right that for them, it's just going to be a fleeting thought of judgement. And then they'll move on. But for our kids, it's something that they're going to remember forever, how we respond to them when they get upset. I think sometimes we think people are going to be really judgmental. But really, they also want to help they just don't quite know like, is it? Okay, should I say something? And so, yeah, not being so worried about the judgement of other people? Because usually, you know, they're not judging, they've been there before to probably. And if they're judging Well, then, like, that's not the parenting that you that you want to do anyways. And sometimes we have to just let that go. I agree with you. And I'm curious, after all the work you've done, the education, the coaching, how are things going with your son? Do you feel like he's benefited from all the work that you've been doing? 1,000,000% I think that, you know, when he was little, the tantrums were so much. It was like what I was dealing with, when I was working in the clinic with kids who had like, intense sensory stuff. And I just kept saying, like, is this normal again, when I learned these skills, you know, he's, he's always been more of a sensitive child. But he's just like, flourishing. And I think it just goes to show that when you provide connection, you know, so much of parenting, they'll tell you, you know, you want your child to be independent, like, make them sleep alone, make them you know, go do all this stuff alone. But when we really focus on connecting with them, that's where you're really going to see them flourish and independence, I just look back and see like this child who would not let go of my leg. You know, what, hide from people even new to this child who is just jumping and playing with kids. He has no idea who they are. Well, I love everything you're doing. I think you're right, that connection is so it's beyond important for parenting is beyond important for our children. I really think it's the root of our human existence, I think to feel connected to others. So how beautiful to give tips for parents on how to connect how to improve connection with their own children. It's really wonderful. Yeah, that's that's the goal. You know, just help parents help parents know how to come to behaviour but also help kids to be more understood because just as a society and a culture, you know, we see kids as people we need to just like order around and they need to obey and you know, they're defiant. But really, there's just there's so much more that goes on that. I think we just don't we don't have that awareness because it's not being shared or taught. And so I just hope to share that, that part of it with people so that they can recognise, like their kid is a person, you know, it's not just your child, it's an actual human person that thinks a lot like you do. Just, you know, they're not as further along as we are in like, the cognitive types of stages. Yeah, my, my husband was reminding me the other day, we're having conversation with my seven year old, and he goes in, he goes, you know, you're 43. And she's seven, like you've lived six times, as long as she has. So her thoughts they do, they do need some assistance sometimes. Yeah. And I think also, we have this expectation that, you know, our four year old shouldn't have a tantrum in Target, because therefore, and yet, like, how difficult is it for us to stay calm when we're triggered? But we expect when our kids are triggered, that they respond respectfully, and don't do things that they're not supposed to? And yet, when we're triggered, what do we do? Do Right? Right. And we're much more developed mature beings, as you mentioned before our prefrontal cortex is fully formed. So tell people where can they find you, if they're looking to have some coaching? They want more tips on how to be more connected with their children, your podcast, tell, tell everybody where to find you. Yeah, so I'd say the main way is my podcast. So it's called chaos to connected like you mentioned, I can also link up my Instagram. It's just Kaylee dot zire. But that's kind of hard to smell. So I'll, I'll send that to you. And there, I also just share tips and stuff, too. Or you can message me if you have questions. But there's all of that information, you know, on the podcast, too. You're doing such great work. And I so thank you for being here. Andrew. 37 weeks pregnant. You're still here. So thank you so much. It was wonderful talking to you. Yeah, thank you. I mean, I could talk about this stuff all day, so I don't mind. Amazing. Well, chaos to connect it. I will be listening and I will definitely share it in the show notes below. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Ask Dr. Jessica. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr. Jessica