Ep 113: How should parents handle "unwanted behaviors"--like anger, lying and swearing? with Dr Siggie Cohen

Episode 113 of Ask Dr Jessica is part 2 with Dr Siggie--and on this episode we talk about unwanted behaviors--like anger, lying and use of swear words--and how parents should approach children with these behaviors. 

Dr Siggie is a mom of three and child developmental specialist with over 35 years experience.  She has also become an instagram sensation (with over 1 million followers) because of her calm, purposeful and helpful parenting advice. She gives parents direct instruction and advice to help increase connection between parents and their children.

To learn more from Dr Siggie, please follow her on instagram: @dr.siggie and check out her website: www.drsiggie.com.

Your Child is Normal is the trusted podcast for parents, pediatricians, and child health experts who want smart, nuanced conversations about raising healthy, resilient kids. Hosted by Dr. Jessica Hochman — a board-certified practicing pediatrician — the show combines evidence-based medicine, expert interviews, and real-world parenting advice to help listeners navigate everything from sleep struggles to mental health, nutrition, screen time, and more.

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only.  She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals.  If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

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Hi everybody I'm Dr. Jessica Hochman, paediatrician, and mom of three. On this podcast I like to talk about various paediatric health topics, sharing my knowledge not only as a doctor, but also as a parent. Ultimately, my hope is that when it comes to your children's health, you feel more confident, worry less, and enjoy your parenting experience as much as possible. today's podcast is part two with Dr. Ziggy Cohen. And on this episode, we are going to talk all about how parents can approach challenging behaviours with their kids, such as anger, lying and swearing, I find that nothing tells us more as parents and when our kids act up, and I really love Dr. ciggies thoughtful and practical parenting advice. And speaking of loving Dr. Ziggy I am not alone in this feeling. Dr. Siggy started Instagram three years ago, and now today, she has over 1.1 million Instagram followers. And she has created incredible online content for parents, all with the purpose of helping parents connect with our children. Thank you so much, Dr. Siggy. For all you do. And also for taking the time to come on ask Dr. Jessica. So now Dr. Siggy, I want to I want to ask you for advice on what parents can do when they see their children doing quote unquote bad behaviours, like getting angry getting really emotional, having tantrums? How should parents approach these behaviours when when they occur? Right. So just as you said, bad behaviour. And so everybody treats the behaviour as the bad the wrong the inappropriate one, too. But the behaviour doesn't stand alone, there is a trigger to the behaviour behind the behaviour. There is an emotion, a mindset, a person that has this need or want. What we want is to actually treat both. So I don't just tweet the behaviour, I tweet the expression of the emotion through this behaviour is not the right way to do so. So I can see a very angry, yes, it's okay to be angry. And notice this most parents are like, Why are you angry? Stop being angry? That's not okay. Don't do that. Enough. If you why it's like all that. Yeah. So what I am saying is this contain and help your child learn to contain and manage their anger, not by dismissing the anger, only channelling the anger in a different kind of way to expel of expression. So you let your child know, I cannot be angry this way. No, no hitting me or anything when you're angry. No. And you see, I can be very firm. But now immediately, because I only just tweeted the behaviour. And that's okay, I have the right to mentor my child and guide them to be pro social, and to act in a social appropriate way for them, not just for me, I don't want my child hitting me not just because I don't like it. Because I don't want to raise a child that thinks that this is okay to do. Whenever they have whatever it is emotion that they're feeling. I want to guide them to feel their emotions in the way that is completely appropriate and addresses what it is they truly need and helps me hear them. So once again, Whoa, ah, not okay, you need to stop hitting me know or the screaming Whoa, too much. But I can see you're angry. And if I physically have to stop them, I should and I can come close and now my intonation immediately changes. I address the behaviour with firmness and authority. I address the emotion with kindness and empathy. So immediately I literally look inside my child, it's okay to be angry, it really is. Not this way. Try to calm your body because you see a behaviour is literally physical. We feel it. What we want is for them to think about their emotions not to act their emotions. So So let me give you an example. Let's say my child wants to have dessert, they want to have ice cream. And I as the parents say, No, we're not having ice cream tonight. And then my child begins to throw a tantrum gets really angry starts yelling, how should I approach this behaviour using your advice? Right? So obviously, depending on the age, you know, you can maybe prepare an older child. I can tell that tonight you're going to one because you also have experience if your child is even five or 10. Of course, you have had these experiences you already know what your child expect in your life. I know that this makes you very upset so you're not waiting for that moment of eruption as if you just surprised your child with this No, let them know that this is what you're going to say. And they are not going to get what they want. But that's not enough. You also can let them know how they can manage their feelings in advance, which is what you do. Right there in the moment. You can do it after you can do it before, but that's constantly what you're doing. Totally okay to be angry. Disappointed. Yes. It's very upsetting that you don't get your dessert. I know. It even feels like depending on the age, right? Like, worst thing ever. I must be the worst parent, right? Like, you know, five year olds love that even six year well, yeah, you're like, I know, it feels like that. Think feeling and knowing are not the same thing. Feeling is always right, even when it's wrong. Knowing is based on fact, yeah, no, I'm not the worst parent. Yeah. And not having dessert. Probably not the worst thing ever. But I get it you feel this way, which is okay. Now back to depending, do I have to stop the behaviour before or in advance, no matter how angry you are not okay to throw a big tension, not okay to act like in any kind of physical way, getting throwing, like screaming No, totally okay to stay angry. And another thing what is containing, right, I contain or help them contain themselves. And they learn to grow the containers. I'm not asking them to oppress their anger, I'm asking them to hold on to it. And to make the choice and autonomous choice of whatever and however they want to feel the the anger within them. So you can use your words, you can say I'm very angry, you can stay angry for as long as you want, where they see I'm not controlling their emotion, I'm not in charge of that they are, I am in charge of how they're acting out their emotion. To summarise, you're saying as the parent, we can hold our boundary, for example, I can stick with a no dessert. But I can encourage them to have feelings, validate their feelings, it's okay to have emotions. And if they crossed the line where they're getting angry enough to be physical, that's something as a parent, I can intervene and stop. Absolutely. And they're being physical and you can be physical now, of course, all you know, in any appropriate way, but holding on to your child ways to say whoa, like really physically going, Ah, not okay. Yes. And you know, a lot of kids use that you hurting me. And, you know, and now they now they're the victim suddenly, meanwhile, they actually created this whole scenario. So you have to be careful, go. No, I'm actually not hurting you. But I know you don't like that I'm holding on to you. I know. Now what I need you to do is this wedding. You can stay angry. Remember, it's okay to be angry. Calm your body. I'm only saying to you to calm your body, just your body. But otherwise, you can stay angry. And now start thinking, What words do you want to use? I'm very angry at you. You could say that. I'm disappointed that there is no ice cream. You could say that. Yeah, I am never going to whatever, you know, again, depends on the age. Obviously. It's appropriate for a five year old to be so extreme. Maybe not a 10 year old. It's like okay, sweetie, yeah, you know, you're gonna have ice cream, you know that some things, you get some things you don't. So try and really employ the skills that you have. Because I know you've been through that. So Dr. Dr. Ziggy, where I where I see in myself where I need to work, or where I need to personally grow as a parent is. I know you often say our power as a parent is to stay calm. And I think I'm pretty good at that for the most part. But where I can tell I have trouble is if they start to insult me. So for example, when I said you can't have the dessert, you can't have ice cream tonight, my daughter told me I was really mean I'm the meanest parent ever. And I could feel inside that I was not I was losing my power. I was not staying as calm. And so I don't know it's I hear your advice, and I really appreciate it but I have to admit I am I am not perfect. I have to really work on staying calm as best I can. It's not just come what you want is right there once again, to really employ this mindset. Feelings are right even when they're wrong. Knowing is something different knowledge is based on facts. Feelings are feelings. So what your daughter is saying is how she feels right there in the moment. She also knows she's hurting you. Yes, but the facts are Yeah, no, I'm not being mean by not giving you ice cream. No, no That's a fact. Because you're not. She feels that you see what I'm saying. So you have to actually calm yourself down by responding correctly. And going. Yeah, I know. It feels like I'm being so mean. Oh my Yeah, like the worst. I know. Yeah. No, I'm not. I want you to even your daughter is old enough for you to even say. And I bet you actually know that. Yes. See feeling and knowing they run parallel sometimes. And we need to align them better. But they definitely don't always. So you respond like that. And you hold on to that? Yeah, she's trying to hurt me. And I'm definitely hurt. I'm a person. But wait a minute. Okay. The facts are me not giving ice cream to my child. Yeah, no, not the meanest thing ever. Not anything mean, at all. And I'm actually being a good mom right there. You don't have to convince her. But you can say, I am actually being a good mom. And I bet you even know that. Because you know what? Kids are smart. And they do recognise these sort of like all the messages around them. They know about food they know about dessert they know about you. They truly do know, it's true. They do know, they they do know, but they haven't out sort of like they can come out with anything they can they want to say and they do. And they know they can sort of like knock us down by literally hurting her feelings. They have that power. Yes. And it's when she says that to me. I don't yell back. I'm not a yeller. But I could feel my tone changing. I could feel myself saying, you know, making a case for why I'm not I mean, Mom, I remember yesterday, you did get dessert. Remember today all the fun things you did. And I could feel myself losing my calmness. So I think this is really helpful that you're right. I know that it's not being mean, it's being helpful to her in the long run, to say no deserves to, to know when the TV should come off to know when it's bedtime. And so that's great advice for me just to stick with the facts and repeat it to her and believe that we as parents know, we know what's best for them. Yes, and not in that sort of like argumentative kind of way, because now you're at her level. Remember yesterday, you're trying to prove your case, you actually don't have to prove your case, your case is proven. I'm thinking there's another situation where I can find myself losing my calm power with my kids. And that's when they tell me white lies or they or they tell me fibs. How would you handle that situation? If you catch your kid in a lie in there insisting that what they're saying is the truth? Yeah, so lying is a way to fabricate reality, to making it making it the way I want it to be. So a lot of it comes from fear, guilt, remorse, subjection. egocentrism, right? I want reality to be the way I want it. End of story. Yeah. So that's where lying so we're like, Don't lie to me. And that's not okay. And why are you lying? And stop lying. And now we're just in this back and forth? Because of course, who's gonna admit, right? You just you attack there going to be defensive attack back. This is again, you know, just a typical human condition on the most primal level. So, I have a feeling that you're telling me this story? Yeah, it is a lie. No, I'm not like, no, no, no, I have a feeling you're telling me the story. Because I don't know you want to get out of trouble, you're scared, you're gonna get in trouble. Maybe you already in trouble. Do you feel guilty? I mean, you know, this scenario, you don't have to give them a list of you know what it is to check off of, but definitely be smart about it know that behind the lie, there is no child trying to get themselves out of whatever it is that is uncomfortable to them, and help them by not by presenting the lie, but by actually coming clean. And recognising that that is better. So you know, what leads to the lie. Try to find that. Like, I'm not sure why you're telling me the story. I can understand that. You want it to be this way. Yeah, it didn't really happen that way. But you would have liked it to do you wish this is how it actually happened. I mean, think about anytime we lie in a fabricated totally 100% is to create a scenario that works for us. Yes. Yes. One thing that my kids do often is they'll tell me something that I said, with conviction. And I know I didn't say it and they'll say no, but you said that. Yeah, you said we could win. Watch at two hours of TV today. And I said, No, I know I didn't say that. And then all of a sudden, I feel like I'm in this childhood argument that I don't want to be in. I can tell you raising, raising these kids, I love it. But it definitely, it definitely is challenging. Very challenging. Like I said, I think again, today, way more, because we have given them the right to express themselves all the way through. We want to know everything. But then we're like, oh, no, we don't really want to know everything. It's kind of like now they can say anything to us. And we think they're being disrespectful. And there's no, you know, kids always thought these things. They felt these things. My mom's mean, this and that. They just never dared to say, we told them, you can tell me anything from the time they're little right? And want to know, and we ask them all these questions about how they feel and what they think you like it, you don't. And they get this idea that they truly can't say anything. Yeah, so we want to be understanding of that. It's okay, we just need to still be the parental role. I like this, because a lot of people talk about the gentle parenting movement, and hasn't gone too far. But you're saying we can be gentle, we can let them be expressive, but we still are the parent that can hold the boundary. We know what's appropriate. We know when it's gone too far. And we can hold them to that by so for example, your little scenario, your children can tell you a story like that, you know, where in other I don't know, generations, kids never dared to say something like that. But they still I wish I could tell my mom that she said that. Yeah, then I would get my way. They they thought that now they're saying it the wish the need behind it still exists still the same. So you can say, you kind of wish that I did say that right? Yeah. No, I did. Yeah, you did. Yeah. No, but Don't you wish that I did? Because then you would have gotten two hours of TV? Yeah. Yeah, I know. So here's what it is. What they want is two hours of TV. That's actually the story, right? And now they're gonna try anything. So you talk about that. So you want two hours of TV? Because the argument is not about what they wished and what was true. The truth is the truth. And they wish to Yes. That's also part of it. You want two hours of TV? And yeah, you kind of will do anything for it. Hmm. Is it hard not to get that? Yeah. So how often do you think about those two hours of TV? Like, do you wish for it every day? I mean, you see what I am just trying really putting it out there allowing my children to have this sense of safety to discuss these things. Yes, upfront without putting them on the spot or chasing them or catching them in this kind of like one bad negative connotation? No, I'm learning from this. My takeaway is I need to really work on being a good Narrator narrating the situation in a neutral calm way, without putting my emotions or feelings into it. Right? Unless you can actually share like, Yeah, this is very hard for me. I don't like when you say it, but this is not about me. See, I did share, but I didn't put it on them. Yes, I definitely see that distinction. Yeah, yeah. Now what about something that's come up recently with my kids as they are exposed to a lot of bad language now? They're now they're coming home now asking me about words swear words and such. And I don't want to put too much weight into the words but that I but I also don't know if I feel comfortable with them using bad words in their day to day lexicon? How, how would you approach kids that are starting to use swear words? Do you think it's a battle we shouldn't pick? Or should? How should I approach that with my kids in your opinion? So once again, we we focus on the behaviour but we're not looking at what's underneath it. What drives this? What triggers it? What is it? What's in it for me the child that I'm even doing that and that's what we want to focus on. So you learn the bad word or Wow, okay. Yeah. Immediately I will say so. How does it make you feel now like right because there's so they know we're gonna say yes, no, good, bad. They know that. Yeah. But they're not expecting me to actually check in with them. So yeah, I can say and once again, the boundary I have the right to set so I can see Yeah, not a good thing to say not a good thing to say out loud. For sure not but tell me so not. Where did you learn that because that makes my child be a passive learner, they're not passive learners, they were there. They heard it, they took it. Not all of them, some of them. So I want to find out what's in it for my child that he or she picked up on it. So how did that make you feel? When you heard it didn't make you feel? I don't know, like a little embarrassed or kind of powerful, like, look what I can say, Yeah, that's the behind the scene, and I can talk about it once again, once I sort of lift that veil of the behaviour is good, bad, right? Wrong. There's so much content. Talk about that. Now, you can ask them. So is there any particular child that likes to say those words? Why do you think they do? Make them think about people about human behaviours, not just about themselves, but others to make observations like that? And a lot of times, I don't know. And you're like, I bet you do. Because there's something about that child that comes to school with that, and a lot of them will know, they have an older sibling, they have their parents are, you know, I don't know. having hard time. I mean, kids actually know stuff like that, like, so this kids using those words to kind of feel maybe good about themselves? That attention? Yeah, like, I, I do feel like kids, like all human beings, we want attention. And if you say a word like that people notice. Yes. And once again, power, you know, is is power is a good thing. Control is okay, you know, but power can definitely be a good thing and not a good thing. But Power is power. What we want is for children to feel that sense of power that may be channelled late, in a positive kind of way. So the child that says, you know, a bad word, and everybody immediately like, Wow, look how powerful they are. And I want a little bit of that. Is there any other way to get that sense of power? Yeah, yeah. They don't know. Because that power is immediate and instant. And another kind of power is something you have to work on. But there are other ways. Yes. What I told my kids, I don't know if this is the best advice, but I said, those words are okay. You know, I prefer you not to use them, but they're okay. But where I draw the line is I don't want you to use them at somebody, not to abuse not to use them in a way to insult somebody, or to call somebody a name. Yes, you can definitely guide them like that, like you start with, I would say these words, I don't know that I would give them value. They're okay, or not these. These words do exist. They do exist now. Yeah. I bet that once you heard them hard to not, what are you going to do with those words? I would say yeah, keep them in your head. I don't know that they have such great use. Definitely not against anyone. No. But let's think these words have this sort of like feel of power. People want power, children want power? Is there a better way of feeling that empathy is much more empowering than anything else, you know, so, it's kinda like you can talk about how it makes you feel? Is there any way you can feel that in a different way? How do you think this child feels because they're using these words, maybe they need actually something like a good friend. Maybe you can send kids? You know, it's not like go to on Thursday. He doesn't have to use these words to get your attention. I mean, you let them know what it is kids have a way of addressing that with each other. They have their own sort of like language. Yes, this is true. I, I think where I was most surprised was I sent my my kids went to a sleepaway camp, and my son in particular came home with a whole new set of words that he's been using in our house. I've been trying, I've been trying my best not to react when he uses these words, but this is really good advice. I'm going to try to stay neutral. Let those words just be words and not really react to them. Right. And I'm thinking that the reason he came back with them and are you in is using it so much. Here's what it's connected to you send him to sleepaway camp, and he in his mind felt much more independent, autonomous, kind of like I am doing things here that she doesn't know about, and so address that so you went to sleepaway camp. I bet that made you feel like wow, look at me, I can do something very cool. These words. Yeah, they don't say that. But you did go to sleepaway camp all on your own. It did really good. So you see how you are empowering him. He's just taking that need for that. Whatever it is that he's feeling and can't fully understand. And you Using it in that way. Yeah, but you're taking that need, discuss it in much more of an intellectual, extensive kind of way. And then you help him channel it elsewhere. And I'm gonna really keep this in mind that staying calm is my power, right? Yes. Staying calm is seems sensible think what your kids are not doing is think and you want to help them think but you can only do that by you thinking. So it's like think Jessica thing. What is my child doing right now? Why are they doing that? Yes. Because they're being emotional, reactive, instinctive, they're being all that like immediate. They're not thinking but they can think they are intelligent human beings. Help them think by you thinking rather than reacting immediately on that same sort of level. And one last thing I want to mention that you say that I so appreciate, because on an intellectual level, I know it's so important to stay calm. And that's the best thing for our children and to help defuse the situation. But I know none of us are perfect. Sometimes we just can't help but react. And I love how you mentioned that parents can repair our mistakes that when we act in ways that we know isn't the best, we can repair them. Yes, absolutely. model by being transparent by taking full ownership, you know, so when you do the repair, you're like, Yeah, wow, that was so not okay for me to do that. And you don't say, because you did that. And I had no choice and my day, and we can always sort of disperse the blame. Don't you can say, yeah, it was not a good day. For me. I think I was more tired. I was hungry. I was if things didn't really work for me. But still, yeah, it wasn't a good behaviour. I'm sorry. Yeah, yes, we so model ownership. This is so helpful. Thank you so much for your advice. Dr. Ziggy, can you tell everybody where they can find you tell them about all the amazing courses that you offer? And where can they learn from you? Thank you. So obviously, all the social media is out there under Dr. Segi. On our website, we we offer a lot of, we offer two courses that people can purchase, they are divided by age range. So we have a course for parents of toddlers, ages 16 months to three years roughly. And then we have a course for parents of children of older children, three to seven evolved with all the needs and the wants and the challenges that happened right there. And the goal is to truly help parents learn to manage themselves, one so they can manage their children better, but also help parents understand themselves and their children. So that management, which is what we talked about so much. If I understand where my child is coming from, my reaction will probably be so much more precise. And I wouldn't make the mistakes by responding incorrectly. So understanding children understanding child development, understanding where they're coming from, those two courses are there, there's a lot of they can sign up for a great newsletter that comes out. There is ample information constantly coming out that is free, downloadable, amazing. And what you're saying is so true. If if we can come at it from a place of empathy and not take it personally, it can really, I think it really helps the parenting experience. And the kids really can feel it when we are trying to understand them. Yes, being thoughtful, really, like I think about what is happening and think about the modelling that dad does, right or need to think about this. Thinking is a great thing. And that's what we can employ as humans is our thought doesn't come easy. It doesn't come fast as an emotion or an instinct. It's not that immediate. It's like, oh, I got a thing. Take your time. I can take my time we have to think about it. It's one of those ways to really buy time, calmness space and build a connection that way because I'm not being so reactive. So impulsive. Thank you so much. Dr. Ziggy, you really are a gift. Thank you. That's appreciate that so much. Really think you thank you for listening and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Ask Dr. Jessica. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow you can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr Jessica See you next Monday