Ep 114: Grow Wild--how to get our kids to move more outside! Katy Bowman

Katy Bowman is a biomechanist, best selling author of 10 books, a movement educator, and you may have heard of her amazing podcast—  Move your DNA—which talks about how we can all add more movement to our lives.  Today we are going to talk about her latest book —Grow Wild, which is an inspirational guide to getting kids to move more outside.  

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

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Hi everybody, I'm Dr. Jessica Hochman, paediatrician, and mom of three. On this podcast I like to talk about various paediatric health topics, sharing my knowledge not only as a doctor, but also as a parent. Ultimately, my hope is that when it comes to your children's health, you feel more confident, worry less, and enjoy your parenting experience as much as possible. Ladies and gentlemen, I am so excited to introduce today's guest to you, Katie Bowman. Katie is a biomechanist. She's a best selling author of 10 books. She's a movement educator. And you may have heard of her amazing podcast, move your DNA, which talks all about how we can add more movement to our lives. Today, we're going to talk about her latest book grow wild, which is an inspirational guide to getting kids to move more outside. I know you're gonna love Katie and her message. And I thank her so much for coming on today as a guest, Katie Bowman, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm so excited to talk to you. I'm excited to talk to you. So I want to talk about your mission, which is about movement movement in general. And this is something that I think is so important. I don't know about you, but I just finished watching the Netflix series, Dan Buettner years Blue Zones. I have not seen it. But I've read the book. And I've been just sort of following blue zones for I mean, 15 years or however long it's been on. So maybe more people are aware of now physical activity, non exercise physical activity as a thing. And that's exactly it. I mean, he was looking at what these areas in the world where there's a percentage of people that live into the centennial year past 100, and what they all have in common. And there are many factors that they have in common, but one big unifying factor was that they move their bodies. And it's not about doing HIIT workouts, and intense vigorous exercise of I'm sure that's not harmful. There's the idea that it's not about like taking an hour at the gym, and then you're okay, it's about moving all day long. They're just different. They're, they're different physiologically, you know, and to get the volume that we really want people to be able to get the volume that you find in societies or cultures where they have more moving for the things they need, you can see how that's accomplished. When you live in a place that's very fast, you know, where you're very scheduled, it's very hard to get the volume of movement that's that our bodies really need for like basic tending to, we try to get it in the supplement form, which is what exercise is, you know, it's equivalent to a dietary supplement. But it's nice when you have both options available. Wow, that's such an interesting analogy. I always say you can take a multivitamin, but nothing is as good as anything as eating the orange, right. And it's the same thing, like I talked a lot about mechanical nutrients. And in some way, I'm trying to capitalise on the framework that people have for nutrition. But on the other hand, I'm also saying no movement is it functions as a nutrient does, we haven't classified it that way. We're not there yet. But it's still a an input, you put movement in, you get a biochemical chemical response. And there's macros, you know, there's daily calories, how much you move, general physical activity, how many steps how many minutes, there's macros, certain categories of movement that we've tried to direct people to whether it's cardio strength and flexibility, or sort of the equivalent to fat, protein and carbohydrate. And then you have your micro nutrients. And that's part by part and your physiotherapist is helping you go well, sure you get enough movement calories, and you're getting good cardio, but you're really using this one part of your body a lot, or this one part of your body not enough. So it really works quite similarly enough so that if you understand that framework, creating a good movement, diet, your for yourself becomes much easier. It is very clear in medical studies, that there's nothing better for bone health than weight bearing exercise, you know, astronauts that go up into space, they don't get that same bone health because they can't put weight on their bones. Moving and walking especially, definitely agree with you is something that you can't replace, in terms of how healthy it is for the body. No, I'm always trying to find some way to make an easy replacement for the people who aren't getting it. But I always just like to keep advocating for for so many of us. It's right there. You know the barriers to it are. They exist, but a lot of them are psychological. There are certainly physical barriers, but the psychology of why we move and why we don't is a big, a big hurdle. And I think the biggest one was probably that most people think exercise when they hear movement, and the fact that there are two different clinical things, you know, like exercise is a very tight definition. And it's different than what physical activity is. And it's different than what movement is and once you understand how they relate to each other, I actually think it makes moving more so much easier when exercise more isn't your only option. That is such a good point. You're You're so right I am thinking about myself or my friends, you know, you have to have the right clothing you have to write wear the right shoes, you have to wear the right sports bras, there's so many barriers that we put on our own in our own heads like what have we just eaten? Am I tired? When really, we make it harder than it has to be? We just get outside. Sometimes it's just transporting yourself from point A to point B, you know, no special mindset or outfit required. It's just as simple as you didn't get in the car to go to work. You rode your bike, or you did on foot? Absolutely, yes. Yes. No, I'm so with you. I'm just thinking about all the times where we opt to walk, or walk or kids to school. And it seems like walking might be longer, but when in fact, when you take the time to not look for parking, and you're not stressed driving, and you're having nice conversations, so often, walking wins in my life, yeah, for time, but also for density. There's so much there's more density going on more nutrient density for your own needs, and that choice to walk to school or walk to work, because you can look at it and say, Well, it's time with your kids. It was time for you both to be outside, you're you know, you're getting sunlight, you're getting a dose of nature, you know, like there's birds and their sounds. And then there is the physical lock. And in the thermal regulation, right? There's so many, there's so much more going on then did I get that 15 or 20 or 30 minutes of exercise or not, there's like way more density to that period of time. And that's what I'm all about efficiency, the more you read of me and hear of me, I'm always seeking efficiency and that broadest point of view, I can see, I can see you're highly efficient. You've written 10 books, and you have a podcast. I know so many kids. That's amazing. So before I ask you some questions about some of the concepts in your book grow wild. I'm just curious, how did you get started on this journey? Well, so I'm a bio mechanist by training, and I went to college and like what's biomechanics? is probably the first question for most people. And it was this obscure field that I just stumbled into. Because those first few years of college, I was not I was very sedentary, like I was a bookworm, very kind of a nerdy sedentary kid. And I was discovering the power of movement on my mood, like not only the way it felt physically, but the way I felt mentally, psychologically, was so much better. And I was just flipping around in the college catalogue and saw this programme biomechanics, which was all mechanics. So as all the math and physics I had already taken apply to physiology, applied to anatomy and biology. So I quickly just completed that degree. And then I went to graduate school for it to keep studying it after a period of time of working with people's bodies, and just going, oh, there's mechanical things going on here. These things that people would talk about in their bodies, bulging discs, or whatever people deal with throughout their lifetime, to be able to recognise the mechanical pattern. So I just came to it, where I just happened to stumble into the university that I was completing, discovering that there was this whole new field of science that I'd never heard of before, while also being someone really interested in the personal effects of movement is how I how I came to it. And then of course, it's just got bigger and spread over over time. It's amazing. And then you wrote your first two books while you were pregnant. Mike, yes, my first, my first book was on foot pain. And I wrote that while I was pregnant with my first child, and I kind of dropped a lot of books right around there. So I'm so interested in in, the message is spreading because I've noticed, I've been a paediatrician now working for over 12 years. And I've noticed pretty much every single problem that I'm noticing increasing in the World of Children relates to a deficit of movement and a deficit of being outdoors. So when I think about kids being anxious, depressed, nearsighted or myopic, insomnia, lack of vitamin D, feeling lonely, literally every problem that I think of that comes up more and more with kids, I think would be improved if they spent more time moving their bodies and getting outdoors. So I really think you are onto something big. That's why I wrote it, because it's like, there's huge consequences to our new cultural. We've been sedentary for a while, but that centrism was later in life. Like you did not see young people being sedentary. You know, I'm 48. And I would say it's probably with it wasn't with the computer, but probably with the smart, smart computer right, the smaller, more portable more accessible, more distributed to all ages where everyone has one versus having one in your house, you know that people use now and then I could just see that we've got a sedentary indoor problem now sedentary and inside. So inside is the new or emerging situation. But it's really hard. Like we don't talk about it in those terms. But it's like, this solution is simple moving outside, but it's not easy. It's not particularly easy because of all those because pieces we haven't even talked about yet. But physical barriers, psychological barriers, cultural societal choices, that have an infrastructure to them. So I thought I could put it all in one book I can talk to the times now, and also inform people past the times, but who would still maybe like to understand their movement diet as children to see how that played into things? Like that was my point. No, and I think what you're saying is so true, that it's so easy to be lazy. Nowadays, it's almost like everything in society is working against us from being able to order your groceries on Instacart, to watching anything you want on TV, without commercials, sitting in these really comfortable couches. I mean, literally everything is against us, where it's really hard. It takes a lot of willpower and desire to get out of the house. Right? It's almost it's too comfortable now. Well, everyone, so many people will say like, I can't get my kids out of the house. And it's like, well, everything that they want is in the house. And so that's a new condition. You know, I do not have an arcade in my house, I did not have a video rental store in my house. I did not have my friends inside my house, all of them anytime of day. And all of that is like we talked about it, we call it a phone, I still don't know why we call it a phone, when the phone is probably what we use it the least for. And it's very challenging for us who have very old hardware and software that is meant to be alerted by these outlying sounds and colours, you know, how do you not become overstimulated. And so I just try to talk about it in really sort of like primate terms. Just to think about ourselves as what we have is really old, what we're in is really new, we're very sensitive to our environments. Willpower is this brand new thing that everyone's supposed to muster. It's hard enough to muster willpower at 40. I don't know how you muster willpower at seven. I don't know, as you're like learning all these things, how you're also supposed to self regulate when full grown ups have such a hard time with this concept that you've put that onto kids. So I'm a big fan of modifying the environment so that you're not always trying to muster willpower, there's a way of simply modifying your spaces to allow these reflexive movement programmes that we all have as humans, but kids have them and they're running such a faster higher programme because they are setting their adult body in the juvenile period. That's a big portion of that time is to set your future self. And this is the first time we've ever not done that, during this period of time we've not set we're still sending our future selves. We're not setting future selves that will have like full capacity for movement. Right? You know, your bone density can only be set until 1718. That's it, that's your peak bone density forever. So if you miss that phase, you're not going to make that up when you like me decided to get active when you're 18 or 19 or 20. Modern life is complex. And I totally understand that. But we could we could have some more boundaries. And we have now in many cases, I think that's exactly it is that, yes, there's a reality that screens are here. Truthfully, they're unavoidable for me to tell families no screentime that's just an impossible task. But what's so tricky is exactly what you said. There's really no boundaries. I mean, literally you can take those arcades anywhere with you in the house. I mean, you can take them to the bathroom with you and kids do so. What I love about your book is you give practical advice practical suggestions. Like I love when you talk about how small steps can lead to big changes. That's something that's palatable that I can take with me that doesn't seem like I'm revamping my whole life. And I love the concept of stacking as well can you can you explain to people what what that is when you say stacking, stacking is looking for a single task that meets multiple needs and identify the needs and grow wild which is the needs that we all have in common right so we all have, you know we have a need for movement obviously we have a need for or sustenance, eating, we have a need for rest, we have a need for work. And we have a need for education. And we have a need for play. And we have a need for community. And we have a need for nature. So these are all things that the human body requires. They're not equal needs, right? And so stalking is like trying to come up with a way of having one period of time it's increasing the nutrient density of, of a period of time, like how can I do something with my kids. So like walking to school, for example, that stacking, you are both walking, so you both meeting your need for movement, you have that connection, that family time, that conversation time, there might be some teaching in that time. You know, if there's birds or trees or plants, you're noticing, there's the nature time, there's outside time, but it was only one thing that you did, you just walked to school. And so that's what you're doing when you're trying to stack is you're looking for Wait, I'm watching you stack right now you're standing as you do this podcast, I've never interviewed somebody yet who has been standing while podcasting, it's impressive. It's a way to get more. I mean, I have to I'm here, I'm in place. But the idea that I could be weight bearing on my skeleton versus not, you know, like, I don't have a lot of time for hip building exercise and more exercise. So I just take this period of time when I'm working. I mean, that's, that's the idea of standing desks, you know. And that movement that's kind of come through is this idea of, can I take the thing I'm already doing but do it in a more dynamic way? I use that principle in my life. I listen to podcasts all the time while hiking, or I love talking with my kids on a hike. I love incorporating other things into movement, because honestly, it makes it not seem unfun. So a lot of times when you think about, oh, I have to go exercise, it seems like such a chore. But if you incorporate it into other things that you enjoy doing in your life, it makes it so much richer and easier. Right. And also like just the again, the volume of it, you know, exercise feels like a chore. But maybe you feel like it has to look a certain way to count as exercise. And going with your kids wouldn't feel as relaxing or you can't go as fast or hard. So then you just have to figure out okay, well, sometimes people do need that escape time, or alone time, but maybe you could get your alone time doing something else. That's more restful, but your movement time could happen. You know, when you're with your family, and you can play it, you know, we played all these we have all these nature games that we do that made it more actually physically challenging, because they got to a certain point where I'm like, okay, when doing toddler walks for a long time, I want something a little more challenging. So we add these games in where people can do like mini sprints, and now it's like a workout, it looks more like psychologically, what you would want it to look like to count, so to speak. So it's all about being very flexible. And recognising that when you're trying to solve the problem of not enough time, you might just need to separate your tasks differently. Maybe it's not the kids get their exercise class, and I get my exercise class, maybe it's, and I'm stressed because we didn't have any family time. And also God has been so long since we've been out in nature, you whatever, move all that to your nature time, and then do something else for yourself in a different way that also meets another. So it's just about being really malleable with your psychology. It's true. And an example you gave in the book was, instead of eating with your family at home, maybe you pack a picnic, and you walk together to a picnic spot out in nature, and enjoy the meal together that way. And I love that. I definitely think that's great advice just to start thinking in those ways. Yeah, I mean, we're not talking really complicated ideas here. They're quite simple. But apparently the radical, right, because because we're so I mean, I think there's a relationship between how stiff we become in our bodies and how stiff we become in our thinking, you know, where this is what dinner looks like, this is what exercise looks like, it always has to like, have these real tight boundaries. So the more you become flexible with that, then the more you'll be like, oh, we'll just eat breakfast outside then. And you know if that's the period of time that you have, and and then you feel so much better. And then you start feeling less defeated. I think one of the big hallmarks of the this society right now is how defeated we can feel every day. Because we know we've never known so much about what we need. And somehow that knowledge is also part of the same machine that keeps us from being able to access all the things that we need, right? It's the busyness it's the constant. Next thing and learning the next thing and doing the next thing So just to be able to figure out how to slow down, opt into what's important, stay flexible, you'll find that there's a lot of movement available. And also kids are almost always up for it. That's, that's the thing. If you're thinking like, my kids would never do this, I think that some kids are like, bored, you know, like, it's this that same structure of their lives, everything's a has to, and it fits like this. And we're, we've never been less dynamic physically, we've never been more sedentary. But we've also never been less rested. And that's, that's the paradox that we're dealing with, where we can't imagine that what we need is more movement when we're so fatigued and stressed and have to do more. So this idea of cultivating strategic rest, resting your mind through moving your body, when kids get done with school, they don't need a physical break, they need a movement break, that doesn't challenge their mind. And to be able to go, I didn't even know that existed as an option. Like that's what I'm really trying to put forward is like, we might be very limited in our thinking, and that might be the problem. So let's, let's talk about this for parents, if parents are listening, and they're saying yes, that is my child, they resist me when I want to get them to move. Can you give some examples, or maybe offer some practical tips for parents to get their kids to move more? Well, I could almost do this by age group, because I think that the strategies do change when you're talking like little kids almost never resist moving. It's never an issue for younger kids, right? Because so true. They're just like going, could you please put the phone down? Could you please take me outside? Could you please? Could you please like they're asking all the time. So it's so true. I think about it, like, I see kids for their one year, 15 month, 18 month visit. And often one of their first words is outside. Kids love being outside, naturally, I totally agree with you. That's the first level of education. Like when you think of like, where we are and what we need. I said, we have a need for nature. And like, Yes, I need green space time. Like that's the way we think about it. But really like everything that you're going to ever consume or do on your life is a gift from the earth, right? Like this is the fundamental relationship you're in. And imagine being married to someone that you knew nothing about, that you had never had a conversation with it. You didn't recognise any of their patterns, you didn't understand their language. And I think kids come out seeking that relationship. What's this? What's that? What does it taste like? How's it feeling? My mouth wasn't under my fingernails, right? Like they're, they're in that early stage of dating, where they want to just know everything about you to establish that relationship. And we've kind of removed that. So I think it's not wrong. I think it's right. And it's the idea of like, how do I set this up, given the other constraints of my day? You know, like, how do you look for if you need childcare? For example, like, is there a childcare that provides more nature versus less Is that an option. But let's talk a little bit about older children. So I think I draw the line at like, set between seven and eight. Because under seven, there's so bound to their parent or caregiver, that really whatever you're going to go, they're going to go without much protest. Once you get where I would say, when the kid started having opinions, you know, in the eight to 12, I've gone through that stage, and they're not young children anymore. Peers are so important that a main strategy to getting more movement with your kids is other people, other kids, and there can be sort of this idea of like, oh, it's harder. If I have more kids with me. It's easier. It's way easier, because they just want to be with other kids and they don't care what they're doing. It's not an N is not an outside of a disability. It's not an issue of energy. Is not it? You know what I mean? Like, that's a great tip. This is what they're for other kids are your secret, like you have decided, like, Man, I just want to go out to this beach all day, or I want to do this five mile walk with my eight. Yes, they can do it. You need to make sure they've got certain things. But it's like they're built. They're built for movement, like humans are built for moving long distances. This is so true. I'm thinking I have a puppy right now. And I take her on walks, and sometimes she'll slow down walking and what gets her going again, is seeing another dog walking in the same direction. All of a sudden, she's got energy she wants to go. And I think it's analogous to children. It's true. If kids are around other kids, they will keep moving. That's a great tip. They're often like, we don't we don't we're not really well. educated in and pass it education on about how to read our physical signals. Well, right. You know, like so there's lots of movement. There's a lot of signs of movement, hunger. And I think a lot of times parents mistake their kids energy level like they'll say I'm too hired when they mean they're bored. They're tired of doing this. I mean, I have with my very little kids walked like, seven or eight miles and they're like they're done with that walk. They're so tired. And as soon as we're done, they don't sit down and rest. They're up playing tag for three more hours. It's very rarely outside of. It's very rarely an issue of fatigue. It's like I'm tired of doing this very boring thing you bring your friends. I have so many just walking games and ways of making walking interesting. Another tip is snacks. Like you want to prepare something. We're going into fall now. And I was always like, we always had special drink walks, you know, like peppermint hot chocolate in the winter hikes and all the kids want to come right. They're all bundled up. You can find on my website. I've done like scavenger nature's scavenger hunts for the green spaces, you're in urban space. The urban scavenger hunt is like, making a game out of it is also kids want to play. They don't really want they they don't want to exercise again. That's like would you like to take a vitamin supplement? No, they don't. So you have to sneak the vegetables into the brownies. And you do the same thing with a walk you're sneaking the movement into this on foot playdate, it's an on foot playdate. My when you're talking about being creative with movement, and walking outside, I think about my sister, my younger sister does this famous jewel walk where she takes these shiny, inexpensive rocks that she bought on Amazon. And she disperses them in the streets. And then she tells the kid to go, she tells our kids up, there's jewels, we're gonna go on a jewel walk and I just literally walk and they're looking for these shiny rocks. And the kids love it. And it's so simple. But it's so brilliant. Because before you know it, the kids had been outside for a half an hour an hour, and they haven't complained and they're having a great time. So I think you're right, some simple creativity can go a long way. We used to take I mean, and so that requires like, right, that's she went out and put them all out and then they go out. Another way of doing it is is bringing them for the kid and then you give one, okay, you run ahead and hide it and we'll find it and that way, you don't have to do anything except they just hand it off. Or we used to have this pink necklace. And we would hide it in different parts of the forest. And then one person would hide it and everyone else had to find it. And it just it's just, it's a game. Kids always want to play game. And I think that it's a hard time. It's hard for me to play like, because I don't have the time to play the way I just particularly feel in my life. And probably my biggest hurdle is less work more play. But if I can be meeting some other needs, I can't only play that's my struggle. I can't only play. But if I can stack a play, everyone's needs are met, the kids are like, you know, my parents or my caregivers just played with me for two hours. Like that's how it feels I was with my kid my friends for two hours, like the walk being outside, that doesn't really register. They get all the benefits of it. But it's not what they did. They ate the brownie. They didn't eat the beets or the zucchini, right that was in there that you just know it was in there. So that's that is one other way of stacking it. I like your efficiency. That's totally up my alley. No, and yeah, and then I, this has given me a lot to think about because truthfully, after reading your book, I have to to my kids birthdays are coming up. And we had talked about doing an indoor movie night with their friends. And now I'm re brainstorming ideas for the birthday party, maybe we'll do a scavenger hunt, or something that will incorporate more movement. Yeah, dynamic celebrations is my favourite chapter. I just feel like we don't have enough celebration, right? We've got all like, everything's a half, two. Now everything feels like homework, and it's a half, two, and we've lost so much of our we have a lot of our cultural celebratory times intact, but the richness of them seems to be gone, right? Because you're trying to execute it in a very fast way so that it can be done just like everything else, right? So instead of actually feeling local, instead of like the sudden the slow rise of excitement of the thing coming and the preparation and all the richness, the nutrient density, again of that celebration spread out over time. And now it's like, it's on this day at this one party in these three hours. And I'm gonna stress, stress stress, and we're gonna have it and I checked it off, and then I gotta clean up and it's done. Like, I feel so much of my work is about the US efficiency. But so the joyous, celebratory, celebratory parts of our lives feel like almost continuous. Were the stepping away to do the, you know, the dirty work part seems smaller, rather than the other way around. So we just had a dance party. We just had a birthday party and we did they, Oh, my kid wanted a dance party and so like that's outside and they're just jumping around and moving And they made their own soundtrack there. You know, like you said, they're older now. And all the kids love it. But they had so much fun. So much fun, you know? And yeah, and it's and, and everyone comes to write like, the parents are having their own party over here. And we're always outside doing the same thing. And again, it's at that level of community, you know, getting together more often just to enjoy rather than like dropping off and running off to do something else. It's like I'm serving dinner. So you can count this as something else you have to do. I make two big pots of soup and like it's dinner. It's not a fancy dinner, but everyone's nourished. And it works. It's amazing. And I also just want to quickly talk about the chapter about school, brainstorming what we can do for our kids at school, because I do think that that can be a problem for kids where they spend hours a day sitting at school with the short recesses. Can you mention a few practical tips that parents can maybe bring back to their schools and suggestions to help kids move more when they're at school? Yeah. So the first thing is like, just as a math refresher, school time is like 20% of a week. So it's not everything, even though it feels like everything is not everything. And you have the morning time, and you have the evening time and you have weekends and you have days off. So just, there's lots of malleable space there. What I do is or what I guess my kids do is some portion of starting the day with movement. And if you can get a walk to school because of where you live, or drive partway, and walk the rest of the way. That's helpful. If you need something smaller. I mean, our front porch has got hula hoops. Actually, the living room has hula hoops. And there's like a pogo stick outside. So it's just more like, go move yourself for five minutes before you go to school. Like go warm up like before, you're gonna go play soccer, it's the same thing you got to warm up your body. Because there's so much data on really getting the movement before you go sit down to learn makes you a more effective learner. And then when you have choices over things like electives, making sure that you pick the PE, that you pick the physical activity, I look as much as I can get it earlier in the day as possible. Same thing after school movement home, you know if there's a walking portion or friends that can get together and walk. Do that. And then oh, and you talked about I had never heard of flexible chairs. That's a good idea. flexible seating, right? I mean, I really wrote that for who's in charge of the school setting, you know, and it's like, could there be some dynamic sitting could there be some standing ball chairs, you know, kids like as you know, some kids really can calm themselves through movement, right? So like you can usually get it with a prescription right? There's some sort of like fidgeting chairs or exercise balls so that they're more regulated without running around you know, they can still fidget but still be in place to do their work things like that. And then what I'm a big fan of especially as kids get older is walking homework after so there's a lot of schoolwork that can be done on a walk. So your math facts, your spelling words, your drama lines, you're asking questions about what's being read that can be done outside so you could set up you know, after you get home and you decompress or whatever you have dinner, doing some sort of dynamic homework. I love your emphasis on walking because you can do it from now until you're 100 Hopefully that walking is a great activity. And so I love that you talk about walking in it's so easy the barrier to entry there's no cost to walk right. And you can get a lot done when you're walking. It's true. You can take a work phone call, as you pointed out, you can do your homework when you're walking. So I love that you talk about walking I really hope that that's something that people incorporate more and more and don't forget about it because really, there's a lot of value in walking. Yeah, you know there's the we have a food pyramid like a government based food pyramid that shows kind of you want the bulk of your calories to come in from this type of food and it shows you the smaller pieces. I think of moving in the same way when we look at the movements that have has shaped our anatomy your foundation is walking like the volume of steps per day walking being a bilateral activity your walking being something that usually requires that you be outside right again, it's it is balance and coordination and arm and leg and weight bearing on the skeleton. Yes, and it also is practical. Like you said walking is going to be the thing that really can limit efficacy self efficacy as you get older. So because I started really working with older population is going and really the older population they knew how to walk like all of our Immediate ancestors and family walked way more than we do. Like walking just is something that kids used to do. You know, I gotta go walk eight miles here and eight miles back, it was just it was nothing for them to be able to do it in exercise research really about physical activity and giant populations like they've organised movement into domains. It's called a sloth domain. It's sleep, leisure, occupation, transportation, and home, all of your time is spent in these domains. And the transportation domain might be the easiest domain to add movement to because walking again, it takes you somewhere, it takes you to somewhere from somewhere, you could do things share arms, yes. And so again, with the efficiency, but efficient in the sense of, I mean, even like you said, cost and all these pieces and it means you don't have to have such a big infrastructure for everyone not walking, right. So many of our like cities are built on nobody walking. And then of course, it makes it so nobody can walk. And and so I'm just like trying to preserve which someone I don't know if in 20 years from now, it will seem like walking is like this vestigial habit that people you may like, what's the purpose of it? We have cars, the technology is here. Why would you do this archaic thing like baking bread when you could just buy it, you know. So it just has that I'm just trying to preserve it to say like, this is really practical. There's a lot of solutions here. I agree. I, I will say I've always been an exerciser. But I've been walking a lot more these days, because we got a new dog a few months ago. And I've noticed so many benefits coming into my life from walking. First, selfishly, if I get a kid to come with me, it's amazing how much they will talk to me while we're walking. If we're at home, and I'm competing with a screen or another distraction at home, I feel like they don't really open up to me. But oh my goodness, for some reason, when we're walking, they talk. And so I love that part of it. And then I also was thinking about it, I've gotten to know my neighbours so much more by walking outside, which is fun. There's just so many extra benefits that come along, aside from the movement. Its knowledge, I mean, like walking has always been how we saw what was going around, right. So we tend to not move on foot around our immediate area, we drive, you know, and go to these places. And, you know, like, knowing we talked about community building communities, certainly everyone has community, but oftentimes that community is not where you live. And that can be where you could use community the most. Right? Your kids could use other people to play with your neighbour who might be older and struggling to get with people could be made so much better, just with a daily Hello, you know, like so true. Yes. And so it's just, to me, movement is the conduit for so many of these older relationships that we used to have. So it's not just for our physical well being it's like, it's for the collection of people and all other non human things like doing better together has this thread of weaving through it. Yes. And I think you really hit the nail on the head. This is something that used to be so easy for us to do. Like I think about my husband talks about his childhood. He said he used to go outside all day play with his neighbours, and he wasn't expected home until it was dark. And now it's different. I mean, it just is that piece of our society seems to have fallen by the wayside. So I think we're missing out. And I think it's really nice that you're bringing awareness that this is something we should be doing more getting outside moving our bodies being part of our communities. Yeah, and when you choose it, it makes it easier for someone else to choose it when you are choosing it by yourself. It could feel like isolating, but, you know, going out into your neighbourhood and throwing a ball around or or drawing with chalk. Like you're gonna see kids like you're gonna see people come outside, like, the simplest thing you could do to get your kids outside is get some chalk. Right? Yes. Do your drawing outside, you know? Yes, they there. They don't know these things exist, right? They grew up in a different time. You have a whole map of all these possibilities. You're like, Why aren't my kids choosing these possibilities? It's like they might not have ever seen them before. Like, do you pull out a board game every night? Do you pull up chalk? Do you have you shown hopscotch? Do you have a jump rope? Do you have any of these physical $10 toys available? Because chances are, they'll use them if they see them if they understand them. It's very true. I'm gonna I'm gonna get some shock on my way home from work today. Okay. I'm just curious. Katie, as a mom, your kids watch you they watch how movement is important to you and your life? How are they? Are they following suit? Yeah, I mean, I'm just curious. They have so I kind of talked about in the same way that I talked about early foods for kids. You know, like your developing palate, your Deville hoping not just the nutrient part, but the palate for the taste, you know. So when you look at kids around the world, there are some foods, in many cultures that kids in this culture would never take could never tolerate, because they're not hyper palatable. And I did the same thing. For movement, I feel like movement, their palate was just set for movement, where I'm not trying to establish a new habit is part of our family culture. They're just, they know it. And then also, what makes it hard for kids to get started is it's hard for them like movement can be challenging if you've been very sedentary. And then someone says you should go across the monkey bars, or you should take this three mile walk, like there's an element of conditioning. So for anyone who's ever been a runner, or done any exercise that onset right of challenge, you have to get through it. But you have to have experience to know that it's short lived, and it'll be fine. On the other side, you you've, you know, enough through exposure, that it's temporary state, there's a quote where they talk about I'm going to botch the quote, but something about the only way to grow is through resistance. And then the analogy is, if you're a weightlifter, the only way you're going to grow your muscles is to lift heavy Yeah, even though it's uncomfortable in the moment. On the other end, you've grown. I think it's a similar principle, it's a similar principle and I can give the the parental equivalent, the resistance for us, is the whining, the whining that you get, because because you can't tell you don't know that on the other side of the whining is going to be this is awesome. There is absolutely 100% going to be a period of whining as you strip them away from the thing that they wanted to do that was easier that got them a dopamine hit or got them entertained that was so easy to didn't have to move, of course, they're gonna protest. And you're gonna have to strengthen your callus your muscle of dealing with dynamic whining, it's just part of it 100% of the time, and it doesn't mean you're doing it wrong, it means that you're doing it right. It's part of it. And for longer movement days, like if we're going to go out and do something for four hours, that wining is going to be like the first 40 minutes. Just know that it's there. And as soon as it's gone, you'll be in steady state. They'll want to stay outside moving the bulk of the day, especially if we bring our snacks with us bring your bring your snacks, bring your water don't don't some other kids to go back, bring some other kids bring some ideas and start slow. You know, just be like, I'm just gonna go try this for like a little bit of a time, something slow and sometimes let them lead. One more thing was was older kids like teens, teens are often asking for you to move with them. But it doesn't look like the way you want to move with your younger kids. They're like, I want to go do the thing you want to go do with me? I want to make a tick tock dance video whatever. Say yes. Practising yes more often to the suggestions they give you. That's a good idea. I mean, just recognise going oh, that was them asking me to move with them. So say yes, more often. Beautiful. Katie, thank you so much. I for people that are listening that want to support you that want to listen to you more, where can they find you? Where can they learn more about you? My website's nutritious movement. Social media is nutritious movement and I have a podcast move your DNA, I want to tell you I found out about you because a patient of mine loves you. And she said you have to contact her she's made such a difference in my life. So I'm sure she's not alone. I'm sure you made a difference in so many lives. So thank you so much and keep doing what you're doing. Thank you so much. Thanks for whoever recommended me too. I appreciate that. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Ask Dr. Jessica. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review wherever it is you listen to podcasts. I would greatly appreciate it. 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