Ep 124: Divorce and Children, with Christina McGhee

Ask Dr Jessica episode 124 with Christina McGhee, an expert in divorce and co-parenting. We discuss various aspects of divorce and its impact on children, as well as strategies for effective co-parenting.  Christina also provides advice on avoiding common mistakes, seeking support, and keeping children out of the middle of conflicts. She offers resources and guidance for parents going through divorce.

Takeaways

• Plan and prepare before talking to children about divorce, considering the timing, location, and message.
• Seek support and information to navigate the challenges of divorce and co-parenting.
• Focus on the well-being and stability of children, putting their needs first.
• Avoid involving children in conflicts and maintain open communication with the other parent.

To learn more from Christina:
Social media: Instagram & Facebook @divorceandchildren
Linkedin: @christinamcghee
Website: divorceandchildren.com

Resources for parents:
divorceandchildren.com/guide

coparenting with purpose:
7 module self-paced online program for separating and divorced parents
divorceandchildren.com/purpose/

Her book: Parenting Apart
How separated and divorced parents can raise happy and secure kids.
divorceandchildren.com/book

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

Do you have a future topic you'd like Dr Jessica Hochman to discuss? Email Dr Jessica Hochman askdrjessicamd@gmail.com.

Follow her on Instagram: @AskDrJessica
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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Hi everybody, I'm Dr. Jessica Hochman, paediatrician, and mom of three. On this podcast I like to talk about various paediatric health topics, sharing my knowledge not only as a doctor, but also as a parent. Ultimately, my hope is that when it comes to your children's health, you feel more confident, worry less, and enjoy your parenting experience as much as possible. Today, I welcome Christina McGee is my guest, and she is an expert in divorce and co parenting, I always say that nobody gets married thinking that they will get divorced. But the reality is about 50% of first time marriages end in divorce. And when children are involved, it can be difficult for parents to navigate co parenting. So for those who are separated, divorced, or you know, people going through divorce, Christina is a wonderful resource to know about. She's been working in this space for over 25 years. And what I appreciate about her approach is that she's focused on what is best for the child's emotional well being. Be sure and check out her book called parenting apart, and her website, divorce and children.com. Thank you so much for listening. And please share this episode with anyone who you think may benefit from learning from Christina. Christina, I'm so looking forward to talking to you. I think the line of work that you do is so important. So curious, how did you become somebody interested in the topic of divorce and looking out for children? I can tell you, it definitely wasn't by design. You know, when I was a kid, I wasn't thinking to myself, gee, I, I hope I can grow up and work with divorcing parents. As matter of fact, working with couples was something I never wanted to do. My background is I have a master's in social work. And I was really focused on being somebody who worked with trauma, one of the things that became apparent to me is that I never really envisioned that the trauma that I would spend my career dealing with was divorce. So divorce came on my radar, because of my personal circumstance. So I'm a child from a divorced family. And when I got married, I became a bonus mom to two very young children. And I did not have a roadmap at all, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. And I started researching, like any good social worker, you know about how we could do this better? How can we make this work for these children that were a part of this new family system. And unfortunately, a lot of what I found wasn't very helpful. It didn't really mesh with real life, and wanted practical advice. So I started my search. And one of the places that I landed was I ended up teaching a parenting course. So in my jurisdiction, when parents back in the day went through the process of divorce, they had to take a four hour parenting course. And really the focus of the course was sharing information about how can we put our children at the forefront of this process? How can we really make the best possible choices and give them the childhood that they deserve? And so I spent probably about 12 years involved in teaching this class, just because I loved it so much. And one of the things that became abundantly clear, is that there just wasn't enough good, practical information. The other thing that became very clear is that often, when parents got information, it was after the wheels had come off. They were, you know, in a place a state of crisis, things weren't good for their kids or kids were not adjusting well, or they were in a highly conflictual situation with their CO parent, the communication had broken down. And so my goal became, how can I get information in front of parents at the earliest possible point in the process? How can I make it easy and available and so I created a website divinely launched a training programme for professionals called the co parenting Specialist certification training programme. And it's a multidisciplinary programme, where professionals can learn skills to guide parents using a child centred approach. So I'm curious, let's say parents have decided they're going to go through a divorce if they initially approach this and talk to their kids about it. So when it comes to breaking the news to kids, one of my top tips is don't have an impulsive conversation. Right? These conversations need to be planned and more often than not, parents winging it. I would advise to steer clear of that. And you are aware of like, this is the direction we're heading. And that's an important component because you don't want to tell kids yeah, we're ending this marriage and then decide to reconcile or we're going to get one. You know, one more last ditch effort, you want to be really clear. This is where we're moving. And so now it's time to have a conversation with the kids. And I encourage parents to craft a plan. Think about when will you tell them? Where will you tell them? What will you say? Who's gonna say what what about when the kids ask why? Why that's going to be your answer. And can you come up with a similar message? Can you agree on how we're going to address those things. So you want to make a plan. I encourage parents to really map out what they're going to say. And to be very clear and direct. So it doesn't need to be a really long conversation. But you need to think about what's going to be important to your kids, what do they need to hear, I also encourage parents to use the word divorce. And there are a lot of parents that want to sidestep that they don't want to use the word they think it's going to make it harder for kids or it's going to be too upsetting. And the truth is, by not using that word, you're just confusing kids. Like they don't have a frame of reference of understates. So does this mean, you are married or you aren't married? When my teacher asked? You know why my parents live in two homes? What am I going to say? I think it's important to give kids a context for understanding what divorce is, and divorces when two parents decide not to be married anymore. But they will always be your parents, right. So we also want to offer kids reassurance, we want to talk to them about what's going to stay the same and what's going to change, I love that you remind us to remind kids that the parents will say their parents, because I do feel like a deep seated fear for children is that that parent will leave them or their relationship might be severed or affected because of the divorce. So I think that's a really important reminder, I think that message of your family will continue to be your family like we will still be a family just in a different way. And to really reassure kids that that belonging and connection is going to stay in place that they're going to continue to share a life with each of their parents is super important because kids do worry. Like if you can stop loving each other does that mean someday you might stop loving me? This is gonna sound like a loaded question. But I feel like going through divorce, a lot of parents are so angry. And it's really hard for children not to sense that anger, any tips for parents on how to effectively avoid that? Well, I would say, number one, right, you need to make sure that you are accessing support for yourself and good information. Because really, that is the defining difference. So a few minutes ago, I talked about how a lot of parents just wait until they're in crisis mode, it's going to be very difficult for you to separate your children's needs, from your feelings if you don't have the insight, perspective, tools, information, to make those choices to even notice it. Right, because when stress levels are high. And let's face it, I mean, divorce is a crisis in the life of a family, and the amount of stress that it generates rate second only to death, on the stress of adjusting to change scale. So we're talking about a monumental change and a family. And when you are in that state of stress, it's really difficult for you to access that part of your brain problem solves that's reasonable. That is has a level of awareness to really see how your children are being impacted, or to be thoughtful about how you approach and so we get in this pattern of being reactive rather than responsive. So I think the very first thing that parents need to do is make sure that you have the ability to have some support, whether it's a trusted friend who's going to tell you what you need to hear versus what you want to hear, who's not going to jump on the bandwagon and add a little fuel to the fire. Or maybe it's a counsellor or a therapist, or maybe it's a divorce coach like myself, like somebody, I tell parents, often it's hard to see the picture when you're in the frame. And so what you're really looking for early on in the process is who's going to be outside the frame of your life, who can give you some perspective, some insight into how you're managing things and what your children need. And so that's a really important one. No, I'm thinking, you know, of the of the close friends and family that I know who have been through divorce. I think that's such true advice to make sure you have support that you have a village. But I do know that a lot of a common feeling I've noticed is that a lot of people feel isolated. Notice that a lot of divorce moms who have the kids, they feel like they're not included anymore. Do you agree that it's important to find a community but I know, I feel like it can be easier advice given and hard in reality, if that makes sense. Yes, I do. I know it is it takes a lot of courage, right? And when you're juggling so many different things at once. Usually what happens is the idea of looking for somebody to support me is pretty low on the list. And and so that kind of leads me to another pitfall that I see parents engage in and that is under estimating that they have to make a difference in their children's lives. And so we often get caught in this trap of thinking well because the other parent is never going to be cooperative. There's Nothing I can do, you know, it's just, I can't change anything. Or, well, if only if only the situation was different, then I wouldn't have to do this, this, this or this, right? If the other parent was cooperative, then I wouldn't have to do what I do, right? We get into this state of reacting or focusing more on what the other parent does or doesn't do, than what we can actually do. And so I think it's important for parents to be reminded that you always have a choice, you can't change what the other parent does, or what they say, or how they talk to the children or the choices that they make. But you can choose how you respond. You can choose whether or not you engage in support, you can choose what kind of context you give your children for understanding how their lives have changed, or what's going on how you show up for them. And so one of the first things it's really important to do at the very beginning of the process is make sure that your intention, if you think about what is my intention? How do I want to show up for my kids. And I encourage parents to create what I call a guiding principle. And a guiding principle is really like a two sentence statement where parents articulate what their highest value is in parenting their children through this change. And when you have that you can also use it as a touchstone when the road gets a little rocky, I can come back to that intention that I set, or if I'm feeling conflicted, I can go back and say, Okay, if this is my intention, how does my action support that? Is this how I wanted to show up? I do notice, when I talk to parents that have been through divorce, they often do complain about the way the other spouse handles things in their home. So one common example is food. For example, one parent healthy and really conscientious about fruits and vegetables and whatnot. And the other parent is looser with sweets. And it's really frustrating for the I find for the healthy parent, they want to control what the other parent is doing. Reality is you cannot control other people, maybe you can nicely make a suggestion. I don't even know if that's helpful. Well, you could try. All you really can do is be a good role model for your kids and set the example in your own home, correct? Yes, yes, you can. I also encourage parents to kind of change the context of the situation, because a lot of times, so for example, let's just take the healthy snack situation, right? So maybe one parent is like doughnuts and a can of coke for a healthy snack. And the other parent is like, this is horrible. The kids don't need this. They need to have fruits and vegetables. They need to have a yoghurt parfait. And so sometimes I'll ask parents, I said, Okay, so let me tell me this. If grandma was the one doling out the doughnuts in the can of Coke, how would you handle it? Would you write grandma 1000 word rant about what healthy snacks are? And how she needs to be making different choices. What would you do? Chances are we cut Grandma a lot more slack than we do our CO parent. And so there may be some things where you need to adjust your perspective, we need to learn to agree to disagree, and allow different to be different. And my guesses is that for the vast majority of us, these were things that existed before the divorce. We were just more tolerant, because we had an emotional investment in the relationship. And we may not have been crazy about the doughnuts and the can of Coke. But we were willing to live with it. Yes. And I can understand it. I tried to put myself in their shoes. And I can see how if a child is saying I want to go to you know, the other parents house, their food is better. And how frustrating that might feel if you're really trying your best to teach your kids healthy habits. But right I mean, I think the big picture perspective is peace in the house. And less fighting is much more beneficial to everybody involved. So I think if you can pick your battle, I think that's probably the better move, as you said to give some more slack. If you can't, yes, if you can't. And you need to also understand that sometimes I think parents feel like that if they accept the differences, then they're condoning them. And that's not true. You know, you just may have a different perspective. But when we get into the situation with kids where we feel like we need to assert our differences, like kids are going to manage differences, depending how we manage them as parents and this is another place where kids kind of get caught in the middle, right? Because in that situation you just raised where the kid said, Well, I don't like your rules. I want to go over to the other parents house. I promise you if you have not heard that yet from your child, you will because that's such a common situation. Kids try to leverage right the differences in the house. holds. And so instead of saying, well, that's great that you know, you don't have to go to bed at 830 at dad's house or mom's house on sounds like you really liked that in this house. However, we do things in a different way. And 830 is the bedtime, so head upstairs. That's a better way of handling it. But more often than not what happens as we say, Kids says, I don't like your house, I don't want to go to bed, you know, the other parent, lets me stay up and watch TV. And I don't have to be in bed at 830 and then start railing on the other parent, how irresponsible they are, how they shouldn't allow you to do that. And you know, you should go to bed at 830. So you should put yourself in bed, whether the other parent says you have to go or not, it just get completely sidetracked, it must be so hard not to talk about the other parent. But I do think at the end of the day, if you can really hold off from speaking ill of the other parent, it's so much better for everybody involved, because that news gets back to that parent. And I think the kid feels it then that advertently puts the kid in the middle absolutely, absolutely draws them right in. And you have to remember that kids literally view themselves as 50% of each parent. And so when kids are hearing something bad or critical about the other parent, their tendency is to internalise that as something potentially about themselves. And so that sets off, you know, that can damage kids self esteem, their level of confidence. And it also does draw them deeper into adult issues, because one parent says something. And so what do kids do when they get that information? They go straight to the other parent to say, Well, mom said, right? And then dad or mama has the opportunity to say, Oh, well, is that what they said? Well, let me tell you the truth. Let me tell you what really happened. Or let me tell you in so this child gets loaded right with a whole bunch of facts and information. And what did they do with that? Well, they go back to the other parent, because they don't know how to process this. They don't know how to make sense of it. And then they just get drawn in deeper and deeper. Now, I want to make a very clear distinction. That when we say Don't badmouth the other parent, don't talk about the other parent. Again, that doesn't mean that you have to condone or agree with the other parents perspective, it's okay to say to kids, well, that may be the way dad sees it. That's not the way I see it. I see that, you know, it sounds like mom's really angry at me. And, you know, sometimes when a divorce happens, a parent may say some things to try and hurt the other parents feelings, because they're really angry. I'm sorry, you had to hear that. And then it stops it there. It sounds like a really mature and amicable way to handle it, you validate their feelings, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily agree that makes a lot of sense to me. I think that's a really healthy and mature way to approach that situation. Well, in order to get there, we really need that support, right? It's all of it is easier said than done. And you might mess up, you might, you know, kids may hit you with something and you get blindsided. And you say something that you really regret. And if that happens, I encourage parents to go back and have what I call it a circle back conversation. And you can always circle back to your kids and say, You know what? I've been thinking a lot about when you asked me this question, and what I said, and I want to let you know, I was feeling really angry. And that's not the way I wanted to show up for you. What I really wish I would have said is this. I messed up. So when you mess up, fess up, because that's a really powerful lesson for kids. Because you're letting kids know that you are willing to when you when you make a mistake, you do your best to make it right, you own it like that. When you mess up, fess up, I'm gonna have to use that. Okay, so now I have a question for you. Do you believe that every child who is going whose parents are going through a divorce, should they all be in therapy? So I'm glad you're asking this question, because it's an important one that lots of parents alike aren't really sure what to do. And when parents ask me, you know, should I send my child to therapy? We're going through a divorce. my standard answer is you go first. And there's very specific reasons. So the truth is, is that how children get through this process is greatly impacted by how parents engage with one another. How do they redefine their relationship? How do they move forward? You know, while they're no longer partners, can they shift into being always parents because that connection is always going to stay in place and a lot of times again, with the right support with the right information, you can and make some really important changes that will positively impact your kids. I also think that if you're seeing things with your kids, and there's, I mean, sometimes there may be some issues with your children, that your God is going, Gosh, this is this is really not okay. Maybe it's they've become very withdrawn. Some kids might say things like, I wish I was never born. Those more significant issues, yes, you absolutely want to seek out support for your child. But the vast majority of kids can get through this process, when their parents manage it well, and there's no reason that they can't be secure and happy and resilient. The other thing is, is that if therapy becomes needed, every professional is a fit for every family. And so you have an opportunity to really engage with someone, tell them what you're noticing, get some feedback, and then make a decision about Is this person a good person to work with my child? Is what I'm seeing outside the normal range of reactions to divorce? Is this something that needs to be attended to? Or can I get some skills and really make some changes? That's good advice. I think that's so important to think about having the parents take care of them first, because it goes back to that saying, You need to put the oxygen mask on yourself first, before you can take care of others that reminds me of that advice that a parent first needs to get a grip on their own emotions, and then we're better able and better suited to care for our children. So I always worry about kids feeling that stability, are there any tips you can offer for parents so that kids can feel more stability, for example, I was wondering about how to decide how long to spend at each parent's home, I have some kids that do a two day five day five day two day or three day four day three day, or one week on one week off. And I wonder in your experience, if you have any advice on that matter. So I really believe divorce is a unique experience for each family. And unfortunately, our system still likes to provide cookie cutter solutions. And so way back in the day was Well, kids always needed to be with mom. And dads were often put in this visitor role with kids. And a lot of things have changed over the over over the span of time. And so now we're trying another cookie cutter solution, which is how are we going to make things fair? How are we going to divide the hours and minutes of children's lives in a fair way? And I recommend that parents forget fare. Right? Instead of, you know, trying to fit your children's lives into a cookie cutter plan? How can you craft a plan that fits your children's lives? So I often ask parents, how will you spending time with your children before the divorce? Right? What needs to change? And what needs to stay the same? How can you arrange time in a way that allows your children the opportunity to have a meaningful and engaged relationship with each of you? What are those points of connection gonna look like? How can you safeguard those things? So if dad was the coach of Brittany soccer team, and that's every Tuesday, then how can we make sure that that still happens? If mom is the one who picks up the kids after school on a regular basis and does homework with them? Is that something valuable that we can keep in place versus shuffling them off to an after school programme? Right? So really, you want to shift your approach and think about how can you arrange time sharing? How can you craft a parenting agreement that really is focused on what your kids need, instead of what feels fair and equitable to each of you think that's so valuable to really put the child first to make all the decisions child centred that resonates with me more than trying to make things fair and equitable? So I think that's great advice. Well, I think parents forget what feels fair for us, often doesn't feel so great for our kids. And kids internalise that sense of fairness when we talk about, you know, keeping things fair. Well, you know, this is your mom's time. This is your dad's time. Well, if this parent gets this much time, then we have to make up this amount of time to keep it fair. Kids internalise that when their time is treated like a commodity that needs to be divided up fairly and equally. And kids start weighing out in the balance, right? How not to rock the boat, how to keep things fair and even Steven for both parents and not just in time sharing arrangements, but in events or what they say or you know, instead of a Aaron being really excited that he has a speaking part in the school play. He's angsting over, like, Where will his parents be sitting in? And can he look at each one of them equally? Right? When he is on the stage? Is that really what you want for your kids? But kids do worry about all these things. And a lot of times as parents, they just like we're not aware of them, they just fly right under our parenting radar. Okay, so So what I'd love to ask you about, and I know a lot of this is inevitable when conflict arises, because conflict always arises, are there any tips that you can provide for parents to keep kids out of the middle? Because this is something that I noticed a lot. And I can see it in my office that kids do feel like they're in the middle, I can think of countless examples where one parent wants the flu shot, for example, the other parent adamantly does not want it. One parent wants their kid on an anxiety medication, the other parent adamantly does not want their child on it. And I wish that there was a better roadmap for parents so that kids felt less of these conflicts, because ultimately, I think it's not good for kids to see their parents fight where they're where they're in the middle of that fight. Right, right. It absolutely isn't. And it's a huge burden for children to bear. You know, they often become the messengers, the confidant, the one who's making the decision, where do you want to have your birthday? Do you want to have it at, you know, my house or the other parents house, or there's so many things that kids get caught having to deal with. And it creates a lot of behind the scenes stress for them. So you know, there's no, one path forward. But I would suggest if you have a disagreement with the other parent, right, to do your very best to shield your children from that disagreement. Again, if children bring it to you and say, Well, you know, dad, dad doesn't want us to have the flu shot Mom, Dad doesn't want to say, Well, Dad certainly has every right to feel that way, I happen to have a different perspective. And this is something Dad and I need to work out, we're going to have to have a conversation about it. If you and I would suggest that you do, like, find some local restaurant, coffee shop, go meet for coffee, and set it it's like the relationship changes, you have to redefine it. So from being partners to more liking business colleagues, like we've all had to do business with somebody we didn't like very much. So how do you get through that? You use those same set of skills. And and you sit and you say, Okay, so let's let's talk about this issue and see if we can find some middle ground. If you can't, then I would say use a neutral third party, do you have a trusted friend that you both respect, who would be willing to kind of talk this through with you. If you don't then think about a mediator or a coach. Sometimes when you introduce a neutral third party, it can help defuse some of the emotions around these issues. Sometimes it may involve getting an opinion from a psychologist or a doctor or a paediatrician and ask them for their recommendation or to give us some more facts. But I think that that's one way we can do it. I think the other is to sometimes if there's a big parenting difference, you need to start with what you have in common. And so almost always, there's like big ticket items, like the big ticket item when we're talking about whether or not to have a shot is we want our children to be healthy, right? We both agree on that. And we want to protect them. Alright, so how moving forward, can we best do that together? So start with the overarching issues, and then you dial down from there. I like that a more positive approach because it does all sound so hard. I have to admit, it is it's really, really hard. You're such a wealth of information. And I think what you're doing is really commendable because I know talking about divorce can be really sticky. There's a lot of issues a lot of conflict. Can you direct parents towards resources and other avenues of support if they are going through divorce or contemplating divorce? Absolutely. So one of the first things I would recommend any parent to is if you go to my website, divorce and a nd children.com I offer a free resource guide for parents and it has a tonne of information. So if you're looking for books for your kids, I've got some mapped out a place for you to start organised by age and developmental stage. So books for littles middles and teens and tweens. There's books for recommendations for parents, there's podcasts that might be helpful for you to listen to. There's if you're dealing with a high conflict situation, there's recommendation. So I would say go sign up for the resource guide, get it, it's a great place to start to get some initial information. I will also circle back to this idea that if you're contemplating this, and you're really wanting to think about how can I do this? How can I move forward in the best possible way and start looking for resources, find a good parenting book, think about working with a coach, even if it's only one session. And if that's something that you know, is outside of your budget, or outside of what you can do financially, I also have an online programme for parents that maps out, you know, from the beginning, like how do kids feel? What are some of the stages, you're going to see? What are some of the ways you can support them? How do you redefine your co parenting relationship? And moving on? Like, do I introduce my children to someone I'm dating, and if so when, and how and what is blended family life look like. And so this online programme has been designed as self paced, you can just dip in and dip out of it as you need. And once you sign up for it, it's yours for life. So that's also another resource. So if parents go to my website, right on the homepage, I have a tab at the top that says, you know, for parents, click on it. And there's a lot of options. It can be a great place to get started in just finding some information and thinking some of this through and remember, you know, small steps can still yield very big results. So just pick one thing, and work on that. Thank you so much, Christina, thank you for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Ask Dr. Jessica. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr. Jessica See you next Monday.