Ep 157: When are parents "Too Much" with their children? How can parents navigate challenges with parenting without getting overly involved? Terri Cole, MSW, LCSD, author of Too Much

In this conversation, Terri Cole discusses her new book 'Too Much' and explores the concept of high functioning codependency (HFC), particularly in the context of relationships and parenting. The discussion also highlights the  the importance of fostering independence in children while balancing parental involvement. The conversation highlights the dangers of codependency and over-involvement, advocating for a healthier approach to parenting that encourages children to navigate their own challenges and for parents to practice self care.

Terri Cole, MSW, LCSW is a licensed psychotherapist and global relationship and empowerment expert.  Gifted at making complex psychological concepts accessible and actionable so clients and students achieve sustainable change, she inspires millions of people through her blog, social media, signature courses and popular podcast, The Terri Cole Show. For more, see terricole.com

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

For more content from Dr Jessica Hochman:
Instagram: @AskDrJessica
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Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Hi everybody. I'm Dr Jessica Hochman, pediatrician and mom of three. On this podcast, I like to talk about various pediatric health topics, sharing my knowledge, not only as a doctor, but also as a parent. Ultimately, my hope is that when it comes to your children's health, you feel more confident, worry less, and enjoy your parenting experience as much as possible. Hi everybody. Welcome to today's episode where I'm joined by Terry Cole. She's a psychotherapist, a relationship expert, and the best selling author of Boss Baby. In this conversation, we talk about her latest book too much, exploring the concept of high functioning co dependency, particularly when it comes to relationships and parenting. We talk about the fine line between helping our children and over involvement and how to foster independence while ensuring parental support. Thank you so much for being here to listen to this episode. I know you're gonna love Terry Cole, and if you're enjoying this podcast in general, I would love it if you would take a moment to leave a five star review. Wherever it is you listen to podcasts, and don't forget to share it with anyone who you think may also benefit from hearing this conversation. Now welcome Terry Cole. Terry Cole, I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. Jess, I'm super pumped to be here. This is gonna be great. I have to tell you, I really enjoyed reading your book, and what I love so much about it is I think it's very relatable, and I think that the advice that you give is really helpful, amazing. That's That's exactly that was my exact intention when I wrote this book. Was like, is it accessible enough so people go I can apply this in my life and lessen my own suffering. So for my podcast, it's mostly directed towards parents, and I feel like even as parents, we can use a lot of this wisdom for ourselves to effectively role model for our children and also within the relationship between parent and child. I think great advice, and I can't wait to get into it. All right, let's do it. So the book is called too much. I'd love for you to first define what is too much in the context of relationships. Well, what? Why I named it that? You know, it's funny. People all have the are responding to the title and being like. People have always told me, I'm too much and, well, you know, like everyone, they're like, I love the title because of this. But the lens that I'm looking at it through is, when you are a high functioning codependent, there is a tendency to do too much that we are over functioning in our relationships, which can inspire people to under function. We are giving too much. We are even feeling too much right, because we are unclear about what is my responsibility and what is someone else's responsibility. You actually defined this term high functioning, co dependent Correct? Yes, I love that. I coined it and trademarked it before I wrote my book, amazing, because I knew I've been doing I've been a therapist for 27 years, you know Jess, and it's like I knew, like I was like, this is a thing, and there's not a name for this thing. And it is torturing my clients, this condition that they have, and I know it intimately, because I also had it so I understood it. So anyway, from my from where I sit, codependency is being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the situations, the circumstances, the careers, that relationships, the drug addiction of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace. So most of us were raised to be good girls, right? We, of course, we love the people we love. We want them to get what they want in life, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about feeling overly responsible for what is happening in the lives of other people. You know, there's a lot of and wait. So let's stick with why the high functioning piece, the high functioning piece, came in because I attracted all of these women into my therapy practice and into my masterminds and my groups and whatever, who are all like me, successful, high functioning, super capable, like vastly capable humans. And if I would point out, oh, hey, what you're describing this is a co dependent pattern, they would immediately reject it. They would immediately say, co dependent what? I'm not dependent on squat. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money. I'm making, all the moves I do, all the emotional labor. I'm making sure that the kids have everything that they need and are where they're supposed to be, and I'm already thinking about summer camp for next summer, like I'm doing everything. How the hell am I possibly co dependent? Which made me realize my clients didn't know what codependency was. So then I started really getting into like, Okay, let me analyze these behaviors, what are the similarities? Because the the irony with high functioning codependency is that the more capable you are, the less CO dependency looks like codependency, but it's still co dependency, and you still suffer in the same way. It's just like an invisible suffering, basically. So as soon as I added i. High functioning to codependency, and started talking to my clients about the new definition, because it's different than the old definition. They were very caught up in the got to be, you know, enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent, right? That is an outdated I feel like it just got planted in our consciousness. So how could I help my clients if they didn't see themselves and their behavioral patterns in the problem? Right? They didn't, they didn't see themselves. They were like, no, it's actually my husband, it's actually my boss. It's I'm like, No man, it's actually you. And we can, that's good news. We can change that. So that's basically the the origin of the name itself. But what are the traits and what are the behaviors of someone who might be a high functioning codependent? Because here's the thing, these this can be hard to parse out or a little bit confusing, because as mothers and you as a doctor, me as a therapist, like you know, all of these, like we're in this position in life that require us to think about other people, and yet we're perfectly raised to do this, because if you think about childhood, most of us were raised and praised to become self abandoning, codependents. It's a fact, right? What did we learn? Be a good girl. Turn that frown around. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Nobody was like, tell me what you really think, Terry. They were like, Be a good girl. Get good grades. Don't be promiscuous. Like, you know, the messaging was all very frigging clear, and be nice. If you can help others, you must help others. And you know, I'm not saying I think that that is that that's not a bad thing. Those are nice qualities, yes, and being civic minded, sure, but it's more than that, because it doesn't stop there. Because I've noticed, as a pediatrician and as a parent myself, there are scenarios with our kids where it's difficult because you have to be involved. You're asked to be involved, but there's a tricky balance where you don't want to be too involved. And I think that's very applicable to the lessons that you give in too much. And so is it okay with you if I maybe run through some scenarios and see how you would handle this to avoid being a high functioning codependent Yes, like, let me know where it's crossing the line to being too much, and what would be just right? Yes, go. Okay. So for example, let's say you have a child who's having teenage drama, so they're getting into a fight with their friends, or there's some disagreements, and a lot of parents, I feel like the temptation is to call the parents or call the child, or involve yourself. How involved should a parent be where it's appropriately supporting the child versus getting too involved? Yep. So if it's the friendship scenario with teenagers, I would talk to my kid about what's happening instead of auto advice giving, which can be a very common HFC behavior, where we just immediately like telling you exactly what you should be doing, because we've got the greatest ideas, which we kind of do, but it doesn't mean we should share them. I would the first thing I would say to my kid is, all right, what do you think you should do? Tell me how you're feeling about this. Just, let's just, let's just brainstorm it. But tell me what you think you should do, because your gut instinct is really good, and I really trust that. I love that. So just an open ended, non judgmental, curious question, yes. So we go from auto advice giving to expansive questions and listen if something is getting rough, if it's if it gets out of control, if they're your child is being harmed, obviously you step in, but that's down the road, right? What our job as parents, one part of it is to teach them critical thinking, deductive reasoning, you know, ramifications for your actions, like decision making right and when we are so afraid to let our children make mistakes, and we are so afraid that they're not going to choose the right thing, we are squishing their creativity, their their ability to problem solve, their ability to think in this linear way, or think in this deductive reasoning type of a way, and not to mention when you are interested in what your child thinks, no matter what age they are, you are teaching them that what they think and how they feel and what they want matters, but it's treating the child with respect in a way that you would want them to be respected in their adult relationships and the way that you expect them to respect you. I've always talked to kids in a way of like a certain amount of respect for their autonomy, for their brain, for their ability to figure something out. It's so loving to create that open space, because the most you know, what do we say the most expensive coin? What you will ever spend is your time. So you're saying to your child, this is worth talking about, and I'm going to put my phone down, and we're not going to have the television on, and we're going to be walking outside, or we'll be somewhere where you have my undivided attention. This is important because you are important, but not in the way that you are a problem that I'm fixing in a way that I'm interested in what you think. And even if the kid says, I don't know, I don't know, you just tell me. You can say, babe, I'll weigh in. But you do know, like, let's just, let's just pretend you did know what the answer was. What would it be? Just, just, just say the first thing that comes to your mind like teach kids how they get their own answers, and that it's also okay to make a mistake. Maybe your kid says, Well, I think I should punch Billy in the face. You can go, okay, I can understand that desire, because Billy really acted not nice at all. So I get that. And what do you think would happen if you punch Billy in the face, I'd probably get suspended. I probably okay. So maybe, maybe punching Billy is not the best idea, but I do understand the desire. But let's talk about maybe there's a different solution than punching Billy. Like, instead of, we don't need to overreact and freak out. Like, Oh my god, are you violent? Like, no, let the kid Talk less talking, less directing from the parent point, more open hearted, open minded spaces where you create the ability for them to tell you what they really think. This is so good. This is such good advice, because I can see as the parent, we've been around longer, we've lived, longer we have more life experience. We may want to jump in and just fix the problem, tell them what to do, but you're absolutely right. It sounds so much better to give them a chance to think for themselves. Yes, and it's more loving. Here's the thing, when we jump in, it's our discomfort and fear that is driving our behavior. If we were to be honest with ourselves and say, Is it in the highest and the best of my 10 year old for me to tell them what to do at every turn? You, we all know the answer is, No, it isn't. And if the kid continues to think that punching Billy is the answer you Yeah, listen, we don't do that in this family. No, punching, we're not doing that. So that's off the table. All right, get creative. Come up with something else, like again, we don't need to shame them, but we're not going to let them do that either, right? So I think that there's a lot of fear that parents have, and I think we have to remember that through making mistakes and correcting those mistakes, like everyone, even children, they have the right to succeed or fail to thrive or flail right. Sometimes we gotta flail around to figure something out, and if no one lets us, then you have these kids going into adulthood, and they are completely ill equipped to be grown ups, and then the parents of the adult children are like, the hell is wrong. Why don't you know how to live? Hi, you never let them. You did everything. It's true. You give them a gift. If you can teach them the skill to problem solve, you'll take them so much further in life than doing for them, right? But we also have to accept the fact that when we continue to parent long after it's appropriate. That is for us. That's not for them. That is, I want to center myself in your life. I want you to be centered on me. This is like the families where, let's say for the holidays, whether it's Christmas or Hanukkah, they're like I had a client whose mother in law insisted that all of the siblings and all of their families go home to the family, meaning her husband's childhood home on Christmas, like the highest holiday of the year. You know, for many people, are the most celebrated. And finally, after a couple years of therapy, my client was like, I want to spend Christmas in my own effing house like I'm so done with the matching pajamas, with the family of origin, with my husband, like I'm not doing it. And she said, she said, you know, she's like, I'm not so you can tell, tell your parents, we'll come home a month later. Maybe we can plan that with your siblings. But I'm she's like, I'm no longer putting up a Christmas tree only to pretend that Santa Claus only goes to Grandma's house like I'm not doing it. I don't want to. And that mother who just can't let it go, the matriarchal her place in the center, it's so selfish and self absorbed. There's a beautiful in the book The prophet that was written, I think, in 1928 there's a beautiful poem about children and child rearing, and it basically refers to the parents as like we are the bows and the children are the arrows, right? And our job is to help them go far and like, really grasping you do not own your children. It is an honor. Are for you to guide them during the years that you have them to do that, but you don't own them, and that's important. Doesn't mean you can't be close, but we've got to respect their right to be autonomous. You know, can you elaborate when you talk about how the goal is interdependency, the healthy form of being co dependent. Yes, it's, it's really healthy dependency. Now I'm not talking that that is not appropriate. We're not looking at a child parent relationship, that's in a romantic relationship, or that's in a business partnership, right? Where I do my thing, you do your thing, right? Vic and I, I've been, we were just talking before we went live, about my husband and I have been together 27 years, and one of our rules that I feel like has really served us well is that only one person can crack up at a time, and that that's very helpful. There's an there's an interdependent element, which is that it's not always me holding it together and him losing it or the other way around. It's like we both have the capacity to hold space for the relationship. There are certain things in the relationship where he Those are his responsibilities. I'm not checking in if he's doing those things. I know that he's doing those things, whether it's paying the taxes, whether it's making sure the animals you're taking care of, because we live on this little farm, and there are things that I'm good at and that he's bad at, and I would never have him plan a vacation, because he would literally just buy a ticket for $5,000 to go to, like New York, like the worst, never, never would even shop around. You'd be like, I just bought that. So interdependency means we can depend on each other with without fear, right? And when you're a high functioning codependent, you are hyper independent many times, and it you don't trust other people to step up for you. You don't like to accept help. You don't want to be a burden. You're the one who's always like, I got it, I got it, I got it. Like, mostly nobody's checking on you. If you're a high functioning codependent, you know why? Because you're fine, because you're always freaking fine. Jess, you're fine. You're a freaking doctor. Obviously, you're fine. Duh. You figured it all out. And the truth, of course, is that even if you are displaying these high functioning codependent behaviors, you still need support. You still want to be able to be soft or relaxed or weak, so to speak, like you want to be surrendered at points too. And so in getting into recovery from high functioning codependency, we start building more interdependent relationships, as opposed to co dependent relationships. You know, as I read your book, I was, you know, it's so easy to read the book, read the words, and feel how it relates in your own life. I'm curious what you think about how this, how this went down. But my daughter, who is in eighth grade, she came home from the first week of school and she was really upset because she has a really difficult English teacher. It's really hard. She assigned her lots of essays even the first day of school. She's got homework on the weekend, she's really busy, she's really stressed out. And there's other teachers in the same grade that are much easier, and she compares to her friends, and they're having a much easier time. And so she asked me, Mommy, can you can you get me out of this class? Can you talk to the school? Can you get me out? And I have to admit, my first instinct was to want to help her right as the parent, I wanted to help her out make her life easier. And then I thought about it, and I thought, You know what? She needs to fix this for herself. If she wants to ask she can do it on her own, but I'm not going to get involved. And so thank you to your book because it helped me resist that temptation to try and fix it for her. She went and she asked on her own if she could switch out of the class. Her school counselor told her no, and she's been in this difficult class, and my feeling now is it's a good life experience for her. Not every class is going to be easy, not every teacher experience is going to be fun, loving and easy going. And so I'm letting her sit in this and just tell me, is that how you would approach this scenario? Absolutely, that's exactly what I would have done. I would have said exactly what you said. If you want to do it, you're I believe that you're capable of negotiating this system. There's a way to go about it. Talk to your counselor. The counselor says, No, that's what it is, and what the thing is, your daughter's competence in just going for it. It's not about the end result, right? Because, as you know, we can't control all of life, but her the confidence that what happens for her self esteem, right? The healing and the growth is in the asking is in the asserting of self. I She asserted herself for what she wanted, and then had to accept that what she wanted wasn't going to happen and still get through the year and she will. But. So many, so many good things happen. And what you did as a parent in that scenario is you said to her, I believe in you. I see you as capable. So she came to you and said, Mommy, I don't think I can do it. And you said, I disagree. I think you are capable, and you also believe that she would handle whatever the outcome was, and she did, and she is right. I mean, school just started, but she's going to do it. It sucks, and she's going to survive it. We've all had crappy teachers before who we didn't like, you know. And my husband pointed out, you know, having a teacher that's not that that you don't see eye to eye with all the time. That's That's life, that's a good life experience. You're not always going to get along with people so but I have to admit that my first instinct was, okay, let me find this teacher's email. I'll send an email. I'll send an email to the school. And so I'm so appreciative of this advice, because it reminded me, as you pointed out, that it's really good for her to do things for herself, yes, and to feel capable. Don't you like feeling capable? Yes, where you want to get something done and you're like, I've got seven ideas of how I'm going to get that done. I'm gonna talk to this person. I'm gonna do that. It's enlivening, right? It's exciting to feel capable. And even if she did it with trepidation. She still did it, and that speaks to her internal strength. Yes, I'll tell you, Friday night, she had to read the whole scarlet letter and turn in an essay by midnight. And I felt for her, but she did it, and that's got to feel good. I mean, even though it was probably a pain to give up her Friday night, that's all right, she got it done. So I agree with you. It's going to be, in the long run, good for her to know that she can handle challenges all by herself, yes, and it's also temporary. So it another thing that we learn is that, can I do this for 30 days? Can I do this for six months? Can I do this for a year? The answer is yes, you can. And it helps to know that she's not going to be in this class until she's 40. That's true. It is temporary, and she'll get through it day by day. Okay, another couple of examples I thought of that would be great to run by you. I have parents that get very involved in their children's feelings. So an example is there's a child that I met who wanted to be the lead in a school play. Desperately wanted to be this part, really practiced to be the lead, and didn't get the part. Got another part in the school play, but didn't get the part they were going for. And the parent got very upset along with the child. The child was upset, the parent was upset. And my feeling was that it might have felt good for the parent to marinate in those feelings of sorrow together, but I don't think ultimately, as a parent, you want to be that involved in your child's feelings. No, and you're also not doing a service to your child. Because here's the truth, you didn't get the part, that's the reality. So what are you going to when you don't get the job? Are you going to be like, have a picket line outside the place that didn't hire you? I should have gotten it. You didn't get it. Is actually the reality. And the thing about parenting is that a lot of parenting nowadays requires too much approval from their children. If you need your kids to be your friend or to approve of you, you are doing them a disservice, because what they need. I had a friend who's considering moving from where she is to where somewhere else, and her kids don't want to move. And she's like, I don't know if I'm being selfish, whatever. I was like, listen, babe, if you come at this, you can't come at the move. Needing your children's approval. They're in like, first grade, fourth grade, whatever. Like, kids are not going to want to move, visit, and they're also going to make new friends, and they're also very adaptive. If you and your partner think that moving is in the highest and best of the family system, then that's what you do, and you've got to do it with confidence, and your kids will be fine. They'll fall in line. But if you're like, oh, please approve of this thing that's going to disrupt your life, you're going to have to leave your best friend like you're you're giving them too much power, but what you're really doing is burdening them with your insecurity. I mean, unintentionally, but that's what's happening. No, it's tricky, because you want to show your child that you care, that you're there for them, that you're in it with them, but at the same time, you want to be a steady source of support, not actually getting into the feelings with them. Because I feel, ultimately, that's not healthy. That's the codependency aspect, correct, right? What you're feeling is what I'm feeling, and I'll fix it. I'll complain, I'll do an interview with the paper and say how wrong it was, or whatever it is, and all of those things we're not teaching children like real life, because real life is exactly the way that you handled your daughter not being able to get out of that class. Sometimes you can't. What would good words be that a parent could use? With their child, Mommy, I'm so upset I didn't get the part that I wanted. I'm the worst. I want to quit. I got this other part. It's not as good. I'm so disappointed. What should a parent say to their child in that situation? I understand that this is really disappointing. You seem really disappointed. You're having big feelings about this. And I totally get it. I totally get it, and you got a part, and I think that that's exciting, and I know you're disappointed, but this is the way it is. You want to act. You don't always get the part that you want, but the fact that you can be a part of this production is still going to be fun. We're still going to do it. I mean, I would like you to still do it, or whatever. I hope that you will still do it, let's say, because you can't really force a kid, but I do understand your disappointment, so why don't we just hang out in that for a while, and then let's talk about this again tomorrow and see how you feel about doing the smaller part. That sounds so good to me. So you're being empathetic, you're listening, and also you're being realistic, that they got a part. Tomorrow's a new day. They'll probably feel better with a good night's sleep, yep. And look at the positive aspects. They got a part, and they can own that part, right? They can really make the most of that part Exactly. And let's not give in to this narrative like that. Everything is rigged. If it doesn't go your way, it's not unfair. It was fair to the person who got the part. Right? This is, this is competitive stuff, where only one person gets the lead, and it wasn't your time this time, but maybe next year, it's your time. And in the meantime, let's make the most of the part you did get. Beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you. Another common scenario that I notice with parents, and this is an interesting one, but I meet a lot of parents whose kids are very athletic or very talented, and oftentimes the parent themselves was an athlete, and you notice that they're very involved in their child sport, and I think part of it is they can give advice to their kid. They've been through it before, but I had a parent this week tell me that they were so nervous for their kid before their before they participated in their gymnastics competition, they were so nervous that their child was giving the parent reassurance. And so I thought, I don't feel like that's what the child needs to have their parent be feeling their nerves for them. Agreed, that's codependency, though, and what, look at what the parent has done. They've centered the child's performance on them. So instead of being like, hey, you win some, you lose some. Sometimes you do great. Sometimes you fall off the beam. This, this is, this is what it is. You don't have to be in gymnastics, but if you are, that's what it is. There's a chance on those uneven bars you're going to miss your hand and you're going to fall off like that is what it is. And I think that a parent being so overly invested, to the point of being being so nervous that the kid is like, it's going to be okay, Mom is such a disservice to the child. We want to teach children that these extracurricular activities are supposed to be friggin fun. Is not to be so nervous that your mother has a diarrhea Do you know what I mean? That is not fun for a child to think that whether they perform well or poorly, whether they if they make a mistake, that their mother's gonna lose their because, like, it's too much investment. I mean, listen, I laugh because being raised, when we were probably raised, there was a there was a lot more hands off. I mean, I'm not gonna say, you know, some people say with, I don't know if it's if it's Gen X, that you could never come in the house, that you could only drink out of the hose in the summer. And I'm not going to go that far, but there's no way. I don't think my parents came to any of my games. You know what I mean? There was no way anybody was overly invested in they were like, you're going to be great. And it was the same thing I'd see this, this college stuff that's happening, right? You look on Instagram and there's parents taking over their child's room and basically having, like, built in cabinets put in and like, everything is beautiful, repainted and like, Get out. Get out of your child's college room immediately. Please get out. Let them make it from cinder blocks and whatever they're going to do so that they can feel good about what they're doing. You doing that is taking away their experience of starting to separate and individuate and sort of be on their own, find their own style. Like I was laughing seeing something online about this, and I wrote, I wrote a note, because people were like, What is this? Because this is all people who we all went to college, but it was not like that. And I just wrote a note and said, um, did our parents even drop us off at college? And there was, like, 1500 likes. People were like, Nope. Not me, not mine, not mine. That would never happen today, right with the. Over involvement of parents. Now, the health right? The helicopter parenting movement, exactly. Now, listen, I think we should drop our children at college. I'm not saying that, but I also think there needs to be a stepping back, and I think we need to be honest about when we are over functioning in our children's lives, young adults, whatever age they are, we are doing that because not doing it makes us too anxious, right? Why not allow them? You tell me, so what? How did you end decorating your room? What was it like? And if my kid was like, oh, I want to pick up like a new blanket or whatever before, okay, sure, no problem. But it's like, let them lead. Teach them to lead, ask them what they're thinking and then be like, Oh, yeah. Or go to school with them and say, All right, you want to pick out stuff here. I'm not saying don't help but I'm saying don't make it about you. Let it be about the child. So even if you are feeling nervous for your child's track meet or their baseball game, do your best to hide it from them, because they don't need to feel your stress. They're feeling enough stress on their own. You don't need to add to that problem. And I also want you to look at why. Why are you feeling anxious? Why is it so important that they win? How about focus on are they freaking having fun? Do they even like this sport? Do they want to do it? And if you can't go without being stressed out of your gourd, don't go like let the kid have their experience, right? It's not about you. It's so true. What are what are we worried about deep down? Right? It's like that we're not talking about people being in the pros, and even if we were you, it that is such a co dependent reaction, because it is CO opting their experience. We are usurping, sort of their experience by being like, I'm so nervous about what you're doing. How about how do you feel? How about just asking expensive questions to the kid before the meet, before the game? Oh, how do you feel about tomorrow's game? Most of the time, if you're not putting pressure on them, they'll be like, fine. Or maybe they'll say, I'm pitching my first game and I'm nervous. All right, it's normal to be nervous, but you want to talk about it. Would there be anything? Is there? You know? How can I best support you right now? Now? Okay, so this leads me to, I think what was so helpful at the end of your book was talking about self care. And I think for parents, if we can take it back to self care. It's such a healthy reminder, because it's so easy to be involved in our kids we're raising them, but also really healthy for us to take care of ourselves. So I thought, can you explain what self care is exactly, and what that would look like for a parent? Well, in the book, I talk about it and the way that I teach it, it's more about self consideration, right? Because I feel like we've self care and self love sort of been talked to death, and I don't know how helpful it is. I know for HFCs, self consideration is where it's at. Meaning, ask yourself, Do I have the bandwidth to take this on, ask yourself, Do I want to do this? Because here's the thing, we're mothers and lovers and partners and parents and all the things that we are that obviously we're going to be doing some things we don't want to do in life, because that's called life, right? But I'm talking about the things where you have the option to not do it, but you don't give yourself the option to not do it. And I think it's really important that we I go on record as saying not wanting to do something is a good enough reason to not do it. Now, when it comes to children, when it comes to your spouse, plenty of things I do I don't want to do. So do you right? Because that's called being in a family. My husband loves classical music and he loves to go see it live. I don't I go all the time because he loves it. I don't make him feel bad about it. I find a way to have fun. We meet people for dinner like I get dressed up, whatever you make it work. So I'm not talking about those moments where we choose to do things that we'd rather not because it makes the people in our life happy. I'm talking about you've got your cousin, you know, your third cousin, once removed, who, like, really wants you to go to Vegas to her bachelor party, and she's like, You're my best friend, even though you wouldn't even invite her to a housewarming party, and you go because you're like, Oh my God, how can I let her know how one sided this relationship is? Like, she's not even, you know what I mean, like I do and I I also really liked that you pointed out. What resonated with me is you pointed out that it's your job, it's our job, to look out for ourselves and to put. Act of self care, and I love you had a checklist of things that we can do, and the big one for me was sleep, prioritizing sleep. And it's true that no one's going to tell me to turn my phone off or turn the TV off at night. You have to really prioritize your own self care. It is your job, correct? And nobody knows other than you what it should be, and you have to decide how do you want to feel, and if you're not sleeping enough, you're going to feel like crap. So I feel like there's, there really is a lot that we have to consider, and I think we just have to give ourselves permission, and if you're not so busy, right? The HFC life is like back to back to back to back to back, it seems, right of stuff that we're doing, which means then at night, we do want some more downtime, right? You might want a little bit more numbing with Netflix or something, because you've been going all day. So part of this is really being able to create a more balanced life situation, just slowing things down a bit, not getting on your phone in the morning, right, giving yourself having some kind of morning routine that really fills up your cup, prioritizing how you feel. And I think that maybe the biggest takeaway from this book is that how you feel, what you think and what you want, needs to matter, and it needs to matter to you more than what anyone else wants, thinks or feels. And I think that we were taught that if you thought that way, you would be selfish, and yet, I promise you, it is the only way we have to know this about ourselves, and then we can still make all those choices to compromise. That's okay, but if we don't have the way that we feel, what we think, what we want and how we feel as the most important things to us, we're always going to be a little bit resentful because other people can't read our minds, right? And so it is our job, self consideration, self care, self love, that is our job, and I especially feel like as a parent, someday, as my mother in law says, we're going to be outsourced. Our kids will move on. They'll grow up. They'll have their own families, which is what we want for them. So if we are too invested in them, and we don't learn to let go, and we don't learn to practice self care and take care of ourselves, if we're too overly invested in the happiness of our children, I think it will end up being to our detriment. So I think practicing self care, I think ultimately, is good for everybody, for yourself and for all those in your life. Totally agree, because the thing is, you end up putting undue pressure on your adult children, like that. Mom, I was telling you that insisted everyone come to her house for Christmas, and your kids will resent you. When my kids were getting married and having kids, I have three sons, I was like, now, you know, Laura is your first family right now. Now that's this is your priority. We are now your family of origin. So then it would be like, whoever had the youngest baby, then we would go there, right? Whoever had, whoever had the infant at the time? Now, now the kids are all the grandkids are all getting older, but my whole thing was, let it be about them. We had our time that it was about us. And with Vic and I to each other, it's still about us, right? My marriage is still a priority, but let the kids go and stay stay close, right? You can stay close without burdening them with being like, you're responsible for my happiness, because that really can come across, and I feel like it really can negatively impact the relationship that you want to have with adult kids, which is so good. The book was so good. I just want to really encourage everybody to get a copy. It's so easy to read. It's so fun to read. You know, I'll just show you. In the very back of the book, you had examples of expansive questions to ask. Really good examples for parents to read. Really good for I think, anybody who feels like they're doing a lot in their life doing it well, but maybe needs to figure out how to find more joy. Take a step back, find balance. I think, really, really a wonderful book, excellent. And I have a gift for your audience. So if you guys are like, Oh my God, where do I start help? Like, maybe you feel very identified with what we've been talking about. This is an HFC toolkit. So just go to Terry cole.com forward slash HFC, and there's a little video to do less, there's a PDF, there's a self love meditation, the power of no meditation, and there'll be a link to purchase the book as well. Terry, I'm so proud of your do. I'm so proud of you. You're doing such great work. Thank you so much for having me. Jess, I appreciate you. I know I'm gonna see you on Oprah soon, from your mouth in god's ears. Just, just watch it's gonna happen. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. So great to talk to you as always. You too, my friend to be continued, thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Ask Dr Jessica. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. You. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr Jessica. See you next Monday. You.