Ep 162: Navigating the Complexities of Gender Identity and the potential dangers in transitioning children, with Buck Angel

In this conversation, Buck Angel shares his experiences as a transgender male, discussing the complexities of gender dysphoria, particularly in children and adolescents. He emphasizes the need for open conversations about transgender issues and the critical role of mental health care in understanding and supporting individuals with gender dysphoria.  He emphasizes the potential dangers of rushing into medical transitions, and the need for comprehensive support for both parents and children. 

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

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Instagram: @AskDrJessica
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Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Hi everybody. I'm Dr Jessica Hochman, pediatrician and mom of three. On this podcast, I like to talk about various pediatric health topics, sharing my knowledge, not only as a doctor, but also as a parent. Ultimately, my hope is that when it comes to your children's health, you feel more confident, worry less, and enjoy your parenting experience as much as possible. Are you curious about your family's gut health? You may have heard of the microbiome, which plays a vital role in your digestion, immunity, overall, wellness and more. I want to tell you about a new company called tinyhealth. Tinyhealth makes it easy to learn about the gut health of all ages, even babies using a simple at home test. Their personalized reports provide tailored recommendations for nutrition and probiotics to help make informed decisions for your family's well being, whether you're addressing specific health concerns or exploring ways to optimize your wellness. Tiny health empowers you to take control of your health journey. As a special offer for my listeners, use promo code. Dr Jessica, that's D, R, J, E, S, S, I, C, A, for savings on your first test, visit tinyhealth.com today, it's quick, easy and packed with actionable insights. Bucha, I am so happy to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Oh, you're so sweet, Jessica, thank you. Or can I call you Dr, Jessica, you can call me anything you want. No thanks. It really means a lot to me that you're wanting to have a conversation today, people don't necessarily want to have what we probably might, what people consider a difficult conversation. But you know, it does mean a lot to me. It means you care. And I remember the first time I met you, I just saw that caring person that you were, and you came up to me and you were so, like, excited to meet me, which was kind of funny, but you were just so awesome. And so, you know, saying so many beautiful things to me. So I just want to thank you for seeing me. It means a lot. Thank you so much. Well, I mean everything I say, I don't remember exactly what I said, but I do remember being very excited to meet you, and I'm just so appreciative, because I know this conversation, or this topic of conversation, has become a difficult one for society to have, I feel like in an open, honest way, and I know you have your your story, and other people have their stories, but I thought it would be helpful for my audience to hear an open conversation about what it's like to be a trans male and about your experience. And I'm so grateful that you've accepted the invitation to be here today and to talk about it. Thank you. Yeah, no, you know a lot of trans male, female to male, we don't have a large voice out there, and I think it's important that we start to speak up. And I encourage a lot more trans men like myself to start to have the conversation, because my experience is completely different than a man who becomes a woman. If that makes sense, most of the dialog is coming from men becoming women. That's really interesting, because I know a lot of times we tend to group things, and we put everything into one category. So I appreciate so we'll be hearing from your perspective as someone who was born as a biologic female, and your experience as now living as a trans male, that's right. And the reason why I'm so happy to talk to you is I feel like we live in a society where everybody wants to be loving and accepting, but it's become sort of taboo to ask questions, yeah, and so I appreciate that you allow that space. So I just want to ask questions that I think are on parents minds, but they may be afraid to ask out loud, great. So the first is, can you explain what your experience was as a child? Like, what? What was your experience feeling gender dysphoria? And what is gender dysphoria? Exactly? So great question. And to all the parents and people who are concerned, thanks for listening to me, because I do first want to say that these kind of conversations are so important. I transitioned 32 years ago, so that being said, you have to get different perspectives. You can't just listen to one side of the story, and I believe that's with anything, right, but specifically when it deals with their child. And I will tell you that I think a lot of the information is one sided, and a lot of the information tends not to give you, you know, the whole idea of what it really means to be trans or and that with a child. So, so gender dysphoria is the feeling of not fitting your gender assign, you know, and this assigned at birth. I was not assigned female. I was born a female. You know, it's really important that we understand these terminologies, and when they start to change these terminologies, it starts to put a different mindset with you. And that's dangerous to me. You can never forget that your child is born male and female, unless they're intersex, which is a very, very small part of this situation. But every person is born pretty much male or female. They are not assigned anything. That's very important with what I'm going to tell you. So I was born female, and what I didn't feel like, my gender dysphoria made me feel like I wanted to be a boy, and that's what kids do, right? I think I was pretty much a tomboy, really. My parents were super cool. I'm 62 and my parents were pretty much just let me be that tomboy, right? I had a boy name and round her. Around, but I always kind of had to go back and forth between that and the girl name. I had distress. There was no doubt about it, but I would tell you that I'm not sure if the distress was just gender dysphoria, because as I grew up, I started to more become more a part of my sexuality, and I started becoming attracted to girls and not boys, and it was more sexually. It wasn't so much that I wanted to be a boy. I was more sexually, if that makes sense, attracted to wanting to be with girls, which I thought meant I needed to be a boy. So I didn't know about being gay in the 60s and 70s. So So could that have been part of it? You see how what I'm trying to say here is there's a lot of variables happening with kids and So, long story short, I eventually became a gay woman, and I eventually struggled with my stuff, and I dealt with alcoholism and drug addiction and all of the things that people just deal with. A lot of times. I went to a lot of therapy back in the day. Nobody knew any of that. So I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, as a parent, for sure, watch your kids and see what's going on. But I don't think the information is there enough to say that you can hard wire a child at 10 years old, right? If my parents would have hardwired me at 10 and didn't let me go through all the growth I did until 30, I think that would have been a huge mistake. So I don't think I was an actual trans kid. I think I was a kid. Does that make sense? No, it does make sense. And I'm I'm so grateful that your parents were so supportive. I'm at my parents house right now in Palm Springs, and they're super awesome, and I have a great relationship with them that I had to rebuild after years of not being a good kid and struggling and doing that, but you know, as a grown up and somebody who really feels so happy that I made it through to the other side, families are very important to me, and one of the other things I see in this newer trans space is they really try to disconnect young people from their families, which is scary to me, and that that is not part of being trans, that's something else when you start to disconnect a child from their family. So a question that I have, and you may not have an answer, because I realize that everybody's experiences are different. Yeah, but when I was in medical school, back in 2007 I worked with a doctor named Dr norm Spack, and he ended up actually having the first transgender clinic in the United States. This was in Boston, okay? And that was my first experience working with the trans community, yeah. And he told me that he was getting calls from families all over the country and in different countries where they had little kids that knew they were, that felt they were a different gender than that they were born, and they were coming to him for advice. And he told me that when kids are little and they feel that they are a different gender, it's best to transition them in childhood so that they don't grow up feeling uncomfortable. So he taught me that for kids that know from an early age it's gonna stick, we need to support them being in that different gender role. And so that was my teaching from early on. And I guess this is what's so hard, is that as a parent, you want to be supportive of your children, but my tendency in medicine in general is I like to wait on things I feel like, especially if there's potential for side effects, it's always better to wait. I guess I'm curious for yourself as a kid, if you had met that doctor early on in life, would that have made your experience better? Do you think? No, I will tell you that right now. And you know, I'm gonna, as you see, I said it no before you even finish the question, because I refuse to let people tell me I was a trans kid. I was not a trans kid, okay? And I don't like this label. I hate that we label, label a kid gay, label people. That's not true. Kids experiment with things that go Now that being said, I do think there are young people who probably have gender dysphoria, who probably feel like a boy and might or girl, and might grow up enough to make that choice. But it is rare. This has always been rare, because if it was as common as we're trying to show it today, why hasn't it always been like that? Well, all of a sudden, did there be such an upswing of 4,000% which is an actual statistic, 4,000% of young girls who claim to be trans? How is that even possible in the last five to 10 years? So there's a lot of variables. We're not looking at internet, peer pressure, blah, blah, blah. Girls go through all kinds of stuff, through through puberty, right? We all deal with that kind of stuff. So I'm going to tell you that I believe in watchful waiting, and number one, number two is not to discourage the kid and be like I know you're not. No, no, no, it's good. You want to be Tommy. Okay, cool. That's what my parents did you want to be Jake? You go right ahead. You do that. Let it out. Call me the boy name, all that kind of stuff. It was totally fine. And they got a lot of backlash for it from people. That's your daughter, not your son. Back in the 70s, imagine, so, so, so that being said, I also don't believe in Medicare. Conversation. I don't believe a medicalizing a child. I also they've done studies on social transitioning for young people. It does not they will immediate. If you social transition a child, what happens is that child will almost 90% go into cross sex hormones. So you're not being fair to the child, because you're already pushing them into into that, into that space. I'm a big mental health person. I think they should be in mental health care. Okay, so you're so you're saying that for for children or for yourself as a child? Yes, looking back, what would have benefited you the most would have been more mental health support. 100% emphasis on mental health support, less on thinking about starting medications like puberty blockers and surgeries were lost. They didn't have the information. They even told me they were they were like, tried so many things, and I did become depressed and not good and not functioning, and I didn't graduate high school, and I was, you know, the only thing I did good was sports. That was the only thing I ever did good. I was really a high ranking female athlete, but I'm going to tell you when I think about it, and as I write my book and as I look at those things, I really want again, for you to hear me. I was really more connected to my sexuality. I don't think it was so much my gender. I think it really was I was struggling with my sexuality. And I really want people to hear this. 90% of the kids who went to the Tavistock clinic in the UK and were considered trans ended up being homosexual kids. 90% so that's why it's so dangerous to sort of say, Oh, well, my kid is this way. They're trans. That's why I don't like labeling, right labeling, especially in 10 or 11 year olds, because, you know, you're a doctor, kids grow out of things, or they experiment with things. Or also, are we discouraging them from maybe experimenting with things? When we say, Oh, you're trans, you're trans at five, that they're doing that now you're trans at four, it's true, I think, almost like we're so we want to be so supportive in the name of being supportive as parents are, our kids say that they're something and we want to we jump on it and accept it as truth. But the truth is, kids have vivid imaginations. Their interests change all the time, and especially, I think about as you go through puberty, it's such an uncomfortable time. The way you feel about your body, the way you think about yourself is just an icky time in general. And so I do feel like we want to be careful not to make changes that would potentially be irreversible. And I think that's where I get nervous with the way medicine is going, Yeah, and as a doctor, you should be because, you know, the other thing I'll say is I'm all about helping these kids. I'm all about, of course, there's going to be a kid dealing with dysphoria, there's going to be somebody, but it's a rare This has always been rare. I don't like how we're making it so common, because the thing is, this is not easy, right? This is a commitment for life. I keep telling everybody I committed to this. I can't turn around and go back, look at me, right? There's just not going to happen. But what's happening is we're presenting this as something that, well, if you don't like it, you can just stop. No, you can't. And it absolutely is disrespectful to people like myself who actually really have gender dysphoria, and this really did help me to become a better person, right? I got sober, I have I'm I'm have a family, I have businesses. I am better than I could ever be. Even my parents are like, who are you? So it that's what I want people to see. Why you've got to give people time to figure out that, Oh, am I willing to make this choice that is forever when they're operating on 16 year old girls and letting them remove their breasts because they're trans, we are doing a disservice to these young people, because what's happening now is we have a lot of these kids who are changing their mind, right? We do. They're called D transitioners. And so now, what do you do when you let young girls think they're a boy and then and they're hiding that? The Trans community is hiding that. So I'm like, do you really care? Do you actually care? Because if you cared, you wouldn't be hiding to de transitioners, we would be using them in a way that says, Oh my God, what are we doing wrong here? Why are we doing this to young people? I think what makes me nervous is the idea that we may be rushing. Because I actually, as a pediatrician, I don't make the decision on who starts hormones and who gets surgeries, but we refer them to gender clinics, and I've read statistics that within a year of sending a child to a gender clinic, about 80% may have initiated a hormone. I read this from the there was a clinic in Washington where this this was the case, that within a year of referring a kid to that clinic, 80% had been had initiated a hormone. And that makes me nervous, just because I don't think people fully understand the potential side effects that may come from these hormones, it doesn't sit well with me because, because I don't want to make a mistake, you know, and no, because, as a doctor, though the tenant is do no harm, and so I want to make sure that we are being supportive and loving, but all. So looking into all the side effects, that's where the thing is. As you say, it gets so flustered because I care. I care enough to sit here and say things that people don't want to hear. That means I care. It doesn't mean I hate and it doesn't mean I don't want somebody to transition. What it means is I want somebody to have what I have, which has been incredible 32 years, you can't deny this does exist. That's why all size people on some level come at me, because I prove that it works, but I also prove to you that you can be a child and go through puberty and you can't struggle a little bit. What's this thing that kids can't struggle, that I don't even understand struggle is good, because struggle does make you think about things and this and that I would have much rather a lot of these young teenage girls have struggled with their dysphoria and not cut their breasts off and took cross sex hormones and had hysterectomies at 16, and now they're 20 and they're like, whoops, I made a mistake. This isn't a whoops mistake, right? A whoops mistake is cutting your hair off and going, lips. I should have never done that. So medicalization is such a very tricky thing, and it really needs to be put in a space of what you're saying. We need to look at it. We need to have a law. We have long term studies on puberty blockers, on kids, and it doesn't work. Cast report. I don't know why people keep shoving the cast report under the under the tables, as if it doesn't exist. It literally says we did studies. It doesn't work. Maybe it'll work later on. We need more long term. But the transgender activists call that a transphobic report, which just blows my mind. I just think that families really need to understand the full implications, because when I hear that our interventions may make somebody sterile, may make somebody have a difficult time achieving orgasm if they take puberty blockers too too young, that makes me nervous that people aren't fully understanding the potential side effects. And I think about it, and I what I feel for parents is they have a child who's struggling, who often feels depressed, sad, uncomfortable in their own skin, and I think they get nervous that their child will honestly have suicidal ideation, hurt themselves, and that's a big burden on a parent. So what do you say to families in that situation? Well, you know, if your child is is saying they want to unalive themselves, or that that that's a definitely a very sad and bad space to be in. But that's why mental health care and why we need to really start pushing that more than medicalization, because it's here transsexualism, and I call it transsexualism, and I don't call it transgenderism, because I find them to be two different spaces. At this point, I'm a transsexual. I'm somebody who wanted to live as a man and have what we used to call a sex change, right? So I come from the old school space, and I'm sort of bringing that word back, because I don't identify as trans. I identify as a man who is a woman who wants to live that way. But anyway, getting back to that, that's why some we need to keep it in a mental disorder space. It is not normal for somebody to feel this way, and it's okay that it's not normal. We can't shame mental disorders. What we need to do is figure out why somebody feels that way. So if a kid is saying, I want to kill themselves because I want to be a boy, okay, okay, we need to figure out, why is that not give you hormones for it? Because that's not going to alleviate what's going on in the brain. It's going to alleviate physically, maybe, what's going on. But why does that kid feel that way? We need to look at that before we say, Okay, let's start giving them this and that, and then I understand that, because I felt that way. But I felt that way, I think, for a lot of other reasons, and not necessarily because I wanted to be a boy. There was a lot of other things going on with me, and that's what's happening with these kids, is we're not we're not looking at all the other like comorbidities or things that are going on. We notice autism tends now to be a big factor with a lot of these trans kids, right? So why? Why is that happening? Why are a lot of autistic kids now identifying as trans? But can you tell me more about your experience transitioning? I know you waited until you were 30 years old. In retrospect, do you wish you had done it sooner, or do you feel like that was the right time for you? No, and it's a great question. And you know, if you would have asked me that at 10, I probably would have said, I want to be a boy. I can do it right now, of course, right? But as a 62 year old who struggled to get to the space and has been transitioned for such a long time, I would say no. I would say no, it was the best thing I ever did was to live some life. And you know, I lived as a as a girl, then I lived as a woman, then I went through puberty, then I struggled in my sexuality as a young teenager and up into my young adulthood, and then I became a gay woman, and then I lived that lifestyle of a gay woman for many, many years. And you know, that was an. Excellent part of my life. I don't ever look at it as negative. I loved living in that space, and I loved being in the gay women's space, but I knew something underneath wasn't right, and so no, I would say that all of those experiences, as you know, any experience in your life, if you really look back on it, probably made you a better person, even if it was a bad experience, I struggled with drugs, alcohol, you know, ideate, suicidal ideation, all of it, hospitalized. But that's part of life, right? And so no, I will tell you now I do not believe that me transitioning earlier would have done what it has done for me today, which is all the things I have in my life are because of the struggle up to the transition and making that choice me, my parents didn't make the choice, right? I made the choice so if the choice didn't work out, I can't blame my parents, and that's why I also say to parents, be careful making that choice for your child, because if you make this life changing choice for your child, and they change their mind at 20, you are going to have to bear the brunt of that decision. So I'm just so curious. Not to, you know, sorry to ask this again, but no, it's okay. I'm just hearing you talk about how you went through drugs and you did experience suicidal ideation. There's not a piece of you that wishes you had transitioned sooner, because, maybe because, maybe you would have avoided all of that. No, and I'm telling you as someone who really thought with it, thought sat with myself and thought of all of it, but I also thought of all the great times I had. And I will tell you that I struggled more again. Really believe I struggle with my sexuality and not with my gender. I really do believe that, and I think that's where that was coming from, because back in the day, couldn't be a gay woman, right? And I was an athlete, and I was sponsored by Adidas and Nike, and you didn't talk about being gay, and you would lose your sponsorship. And so there was a lot of burden of dealing with that sexuality. And so why I say that is because those things were and I'm not saying pseudo suicidal ideation is good. But I also want to remind people that it's not just trans people who have those situations. A lot of people have those ideations, right? Even gay people have it. Even straight people have it. So the root cause of that, we need to figure out why. And I, you know, I do believe the root cause of all of that was because I wasn't really being able to be myself. Couldn't be a butch girl. I couldn't be a butch woman. I couldn't be that. And I don't want anybody to feel suicidal. That's not what I'm saying. But I think today, we can understand things a lot more than we could 30 years ago, and why again? I will always circle back to mental health care. I will always circle back to that before I will circle back to drugs and hormones and puberty blockers. Seems to me that from an outsider perspective, that there's just not a quick fix, and I think we all wish there was a quick fix, but it's just a difficult space to live in. Yes, it's not fun. But let me also remind you that many people have lived with gender dysphoria and never transitioned. They still do. There's a lot of gay women I know who have dealt with their gender dysphoria, and they they just choose not to move to this space, and they deal with it, and they feel like I want to be a boy, I want to be a man, but I'm just not going to take that today. I feel like people are being pressured into transitioning, and that if you don't, and I know that also firsthand, because I have interviewed many D transitioners, and mostly to be women, and said they felt pressured by the community that they weren't good women, that they were actually trans. There's this more pressure. Again, labels are very dangerous. I really think they're dangerous. Now we have labels, right? Non binary, trans, queer, whatever. It's like, wait a minute, why can't you just be Jackie or Susie or, you know what I mean? I'm like, maybe today you're gay, and maybe tomorrow you're not, and that's okay, right? There's so much emphasis today on a child's gender, as opposed to what they're interested in. I want to know about a kid. What do you like to do outside of school? What are your passions? And now I feel like so much of the conversation is about their sexuality and their gender. It's shocking. I just interviewed an actual 13 year old young girl who got sucked into being trans at 10, at 10 on Tiktok. Oh, my God. The whole interview blows my mind, and she reached out to me, which is so amazing, and she wanted to spill the beans when she went on Tiktok and everyone who told her she was trans, and she had to separate from her family there. I mean, it's the most horrifying story. And she never felt suicidal ideation until she started to become trans. So it's there's a lot of indoctrination of some thought process happening that I think is really dangerous. We need to take this trans thing off the table. We really do, because I think it is pushing kids into this idea that they have to be I think young girls have always struggled with these comorbidities are like, you know, anorexia and cutting and all kinds of things, right? This feels like it's another one of those things, because it really is predominantly with young girls than it is with young boys, the element of social contagion. And there you go, friend. I'm a big believer in it, and that's why I think it has really escalated to such a scary height that now poor parents are being sucked into this. You know, I am a parent, and I couldn't even imagine if my kid was struggling with it, and you're sort of forced to go along with this instead of being able to get all kinds of different that's why I don't believe in affirmation therapy. I think affirmation therapy is part of the problem. I will say, though I grew up in the, you know, 80s and 90s, I was a teenager in the 90s, and my best friends now today are gay, and I remember growing up during that time when it was really hard to be out. And on one hand, I'm so appreciative that I live now when it's so much easier, especially in Los Angeles, to be who you are to love, who you want to love, and I do not take that for granted. And so I do hear that argument where they say, Well, maybe there would have been more trans kids years ago, but there wasn't such a tolerant space to do so at some at some level, do you agree with that? No, I do not. And I'll tell you why I don't, because I just, I believe this is a very rare thing. I don't believe that just because gay and trans are two different things, by the way, right? We're, we're lumping them in together, which, which also bothers me on on some level, you can't do that. They're two different things, sexuality and gender, and struggling with your gender. But then again, a kid could get mixed up about the fact that they're struggling with their gender and not maybe realizing they're struggling with their sexuality. Does that make sense? It does make sense. And I'm just curious, when you think back to your childhood and your teenage years, and I would say, even your 20s, what do you wish you had had differently? Do you wish you had had more support from your peers, from your family? What would have made Buck angels, life easier? Yeah, I think the acceptance of being a gay woman. And you know, people ask me, because I say that a lot, and then people ask me, Well, Buck then why did you transition later on? And I And why didn't they'll say, Well, why didn't you just stay as a gay woman? And I'm like, I did. I tried it for a long time. I probably lived as a gay woman for 15 years. So it's not like I didn't try it on, but there was always something in my gut that was like, No, I'm just going to, you know, and I did it at a time when nobody did it, right? I did it at a time when even my therapist was like, I have no idea what to do. I haven't like, we're lost. We're lost together, right? But there was a system that I went through, which is called the Harry Benjamin standards of care, right, which was a system where you had to go through therapy and you had to do mental health care, and then you had to live outside as a man. I had to walk the world as buck and be that way. You had to try it on in a way that if you didn't like it, you could take it off. And little by little, you know, even my endocrinologist started me, and he had never worked with a female becoming male, and everything was very experimental back in the day, but they really made it slow and methodical, and all of the things that they're not doing today, that's also why, I think, why are they Why are you in a rush? What's the rush? That approach that you described said so much better with me, and I know this is my personality. I don't like to rush, in general, with medical interventions, but living that way, living as that gender, for a year or some time before making potentially irreversible change, that makes a lot more sense to me. That just sits better with me, because what if we make a mistake? That's right, that is such a great question. What if you make a mistake, and now mistakes are being made, and D transitioners have no help. Do you know that everyone's there for you when you want to transition, but when a mistake is made, nobody's there for you. There is no medical care for D transistors, which I find appalling, and the fact that whoever your doctor was that prescribed you hormones at 16 after an hour intake that has to stop, because why are we in such a rush to transition kids so fast? It's not how you do it. You do it very 32 years here, I am right, never looking back, not even thinking about it, and it's why I speak out, because I care that these people are taking care of the way I was. I was taken care of by loving, caring doctors. I don't feel that all. I'm not saying all the doctors aren't, but there are some I don't believe are holding the oath that you have, which is, you know, the the oath of do no harm. And that scares me. It's interesting. What you say about the de transitioners. Do you feel like there are more de transitioners in the trans community than there were in the past. Oh, my God, are you kidding? That's why I'm so disgusted. We never had them. They were very rare, very rare because, first off, children didn't transition. This was never a thing in this community. We never let kids come into this. Number two, we had the Benjamin, Harry Benjamin standards, where it was very. Slow, very, very methodically. You had to be an adult, right? You understood what you were getting into. You got a checklist of things that were going to happen to you. Now it's like, okay, you're trans. It's called self ID. Can you imagine, like you can just self ID as trans now, and don't even need you don't even need your parents. At 16 and up, you can go to Planned Parenthood without your parents consent and do it all behind your parents back. I just think about teenagers. Their minds are all over the place. They're so emotional, they're so volatile. And I think there's a reason why we don't want them to make permanent decisions like get married before 18, why they can't get tattoos before 18, right? Because a lot of times they change their minds, and maybe they won't change their minds, and I hope that's the case, but I mean to me, it resonates more that if you have the ability to wait, why not? I feel for the parents who are listening to this and don't think, I don't think, I don't know what you're going through as a parent, and I can't even imagine, and I know the only the thing you want is the best for your child. But the only thing I'm going to say to you here, if you choose to do that, it's your choice, and I really wish you the best, and I hope it really does pan out. But what I want to tell you to do is, can you look at all sides of the story for me before you make the medical choice? Can you maybe go read the cash report? And can you maybe go read about a de transitioner who transitioned at the age of 13, and now at the age of 22 wishes that they never did it, and because of the puberty blockers, you know what happens is the penis didn't grow. So she's a male to female, and at 13 they gave her hold on. Can you hear that? Can you guys turn that down a little bit? Thank you. I want my parents. Anyway, her penis didn't grow. So when she got to be 15, and she wanted to do the vaginal surgery, they couldn't, because she didn't have the penis to make the vaginal space, and so they had to take her colon, and it became a nightmare, she's never had sexual relations. She doesn't even know what it means to feel sexual towards anybody. She lost all functioning, even any kind of attraction. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, yes, I get it, but it's this is a long term commitment for your child. And I think the bottom line is, wouldn't you want your child just to grow up to be happy. This should be the last resort. It should never be the first resort. You're right. I think where I come from is I feel for parents, because we all want to do the right thing. Obviously, parents come from the most caring space for their children, and I think we're at a loss of what to do. I feel like the pervasive point of view now is your child feels gender dysphoria, you should act, you should do something. You should treat them medically. You should help them out. And I think, I think my feeling is there's a need for pause. There's a need to really take time and consideration before you make a decision that you potentially, hopefully. It's a small potential, but what if you regret it later? On all levels, if you don't do it or you do it, it's horrifying what you're dealing with right now. But what I also want to say, There's no such thing as pausing puberty. I really don't understand these words that they're saying. I went through female puberty. Look at me. I live as a dude. Nobody would ever know any of it. And I know the difference between a male becoming a female and a female becoming a male. Those are two different spaces. It's much harder for a female, for a male, to become a female later on in life. There's a lot more things you have to deal with, a lot more physical things, but you have to also remember that transsexualism also deals with physical space, right? It's not it's the mental connected to the physical. The mental has to be taken care of before the physical. We're doing it backwards now. We're literally doing physical before we're doing mental. And I just find that to be so absurd on so many levels. I mean, just slow down people and let's see what's going on here. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe in 10 years, beauty blockers are the best thing you could ever get. I don't believe it, but maybe, and maybe I'm right. So whatever that even means is we all gotta come together as people and not be so divided in our thought process around this. And we all have to listen to people like myself and older people who have done this for a long time, and we care about these kids. We're not here to tell you not to do it. We're here to tell you to slow down and let's figure out maybe, maybe we can get your kid out of dysphoria. That would be the most amazing thing ever, if we can get your kid out of the dysphoria. Because I feel like when we're putting the kids more deeper into dysphoria when we're telling them they're trans and you got to take medication. Can I ask you? Bucha, I don't think a lot of people understand what it's like to live as a trans male. What do you have to do? If you don't mind me asking, yeah. What kind of medications do you take on on a regular basis? Yes, so forever I have to inject. Testosterone. So I've been injecting testosterone for 32 years now, and I will say that I've been very lucky. Knock on wood. Have not had a lot of health problems, though I have had health problems. Again, being one of the first female to males, what happened was I have long term that's why biology matters in this conversation. I am a biological female. I did not change my sex, and so when I'm putting in testosterone at a higher level, I'm an experiment, because they didn't really understand and so what it did is it fused my uterus and my cervix together, because I had all these cramps, and the gynecologist has no clue what's going on. I'm like, I have cramps. They're like, just they would say that to me. Anyway, years later, my cervix and my uterus fused together. We created a sort of pocket of an infection, and it burst one day, and I became septic, and I had to be rushed to the emergency. And they're like, man, you almost died. Luckily, you know, and we've never seen anything like this. And the doctors were, like, 10 doctors were in the room like, Whoa, dude. This thing is insane. My point being is that that was never spoken about. So now we know that, but still me being very outspoken as I am, doctors are still not talking about this when they give their patients testosterone as females. So that's the most major thing that's happened to me. I have to continue to shoot testosterone, uh, to keep my levels right. Because as you know, as a doctor, hormone levels are very important things. Menopause, all those I went through early menopause that totally wreaked havoc on my mental state of being, but literally understanding how to level my hormones and so that that's a very important big part of being transsexual is hormonal and understanding that and how to keep healthy in your in your sort of regimen of hormonal usage, some people choose not to do hormones anymore, but I haven't chosen to do that. I've chosen to keep doing it because I feel better that way. And in terms of surgery, I think something else that isn't discussed or understood that much is how hard the recovery after a double mastectomy is. Was it hard in your experience? My God, that's why I only and yes, surgery, I only have my chest. I did not do penis surgery for many reasons, but mostly because it wasn't when I transitioned years ago. It wasn't really something that I chose to do because it wasn't a functioning penis. It still isn't a functioning penis. In my opinion, I still wouldn't do it, even if it was so that being said, Because surgery is hardcore on your body and so, so that being said, when I got this surgery, it was the first person to get this particular I got a keyhole incision from a doctor here in Los Angeles. He was amazing. But I it was hard. It was hard you have these things coming out, like, you know, you have to leakage of the thing. And it was insane. And I was going through a really hard time with my girlfriend at the time, because she was having a hard time with me transitioning because we were gay women, and she was like, you're looking like a gem queen. I was dealing with my relationship falling apart, which a lot of trans people deal with. You know that, and it's hard to transition on lots of levels, mentally, physically, relationship wise, family wise. There's a lot of things we don't talk about that you take on that why I say it's a commitment to yourself and to understand you have to do this only for you. But it was difficult. It was hard for me. It took me months to get over that anesthesia stuff was horrifying. What I'm learning from you is I feel like there's just not one path that's right for everybody. It feels like a very individual experience with a lot to consider, a lot to take in, God, just everything. That's why I keep saying this isn't it's not going to fix you, I think is what I want to say. It's going to give you, may need, hopefully, a better life, but you're still going to have to deal with being that person you were. You're still going to have to deal with your biology. You're still going to have to deal with not being able to go into certain spaces. You know, this new idea that trans people are admitted into everything, that's a bunch of BS, as far as I'm concerned, that's the thing I keep telling the young people, when you choose to transition, you're going to also have to choose to give stuff up in your life. You don't get everything. It's not a free pass to be this. All of a sudden, everyone's going to let trans people be in those spaces. That's not how it works. So how it works is you're going to take care of yourself, but you're also going to understand that the world might not like you and the world might not want you in spaces and to you have to be very mature. That's why I think it takes a mature person to transition, because then you understand the pros and cons. It's not all Pro. It's not there's cons to this 100% there's things I had to give up in my life, and there's things I have to navigate still as a transsexual man who's a female and doesn't have a penis and can't go into the locker room and take my under off like all the rest of the. Men, right? Because it's not respectful for me to do that. It's disrespectful for me to make people see my body when it's not consensual, and it's not okay. But I see this happening more today, especially from males to females, you know, with getting undressed in locker rooms and showing their penises in front of girls, that's just not okay. It's not it seems very entitled, and on some level, you know, I'm asking you to accept me. It's not the other way around. I'm asking you to let me function as this person. And I think, because I come to the world that way, you all let me exist, and I don't have a problem walking the world. But Buck, do you think this? Because this is what people say, and I understand this point of view. But they'll say, if you know that person feels like they're a female, does it bother you less? Can you be accepting if you know that they feel like they're a female? Well, of course you, of course you can. But here's the deal. For a transsexual person, they have to come to this table too. It can't just be like, I'm expecting you to like, bend over backwards for me, if that makes sense. You know, that's with everything in the world. It's called coexisting. That's why coexisting is such an important word me and you have to meet in the middle of this thing right here. And yes, for you to see me as a man, I also have to appreciate that you understand where I'm coming from, that I am a biological female, that I'm not lying, that I'm not a man, okay? I look like a man. I want to be a man. And when I'm honest to you, swear to God, Jessica, everyone loves me for it. I don't have any issues with it's the trans activists that get mad at me for saying that. And I'm like, why I'm not I'm not gonna lie to people. So I does that make sense? Like you've really got to be honest as a transsexual person, and once you're honest, and I proved it, the world loves me. Issues walking the world, and people come up to me in airports, oh my god, fuck. I love you. Like, that's awesome. I couldn't ask for even in the men's room, like, Bucha. I'm just like, because I'm not asking, I'm so I don't really, in fact, I am asking. I'm just saying, like, look, here I am. If it's uncomfortable, I'll leave, I'll leave. I'll be the first one to leave. We don't even need to have that. But I don't see that respect happening. I feel like there's if you believe someone's a woman, then that's great that that means that you're awesome and you're willing to have an open mind, but it but some people aren't what I what I genuinely respect and admire so much about you is I feel like you talk about the transgender issue with a human lens, you come at it with an honest, human perspective. And I feel like what's what's tricky is now it's become so political, and I want to understand it from a from a human, loving, compassionate capacity, right? Excellent, thank you. And that's what most people want. I'll be honest, I've been doing this. Doing this for a long time. It's only been in the last five or so years that it got all nasty and political, and I read in the paper and they're talking about transgender we're gonna get rid of. I'm like, wow, really? Thanks, trans activists. They never talked about that before, ever. Now, that's really the fault of the trans communities. Nobody else's fault. When you start transitioning children in the public eye and you see families on Tiktok with four trans kids, you are asking for problems. Okay, those should be private family matters that should not be talked about on Tiktok, and your whole family is trans, and mom's trans, Dad's trans kids are trans. No wonder people think we're win nuts. I'm like, okay, there goes our all the rights we fought for. People didn't care about us before. They really didn't, because the whole point of transitioning is to get back into the world. It's not to disrupt the world. And all of a sudden I feel like all these trans actors want to disrupt the system, right? So that becomes a political space. This is not political, by the way. It's just not political. It's and I want to hang out with you. I want to sit at the table with you. I don't want to be different than you. I can totally hear that. Thank you so much for your honest, genuine perspective on this. I think it's really helpful to hear. And I'm just curious so your overall feeling on children and the trans community. If you could share a message to parents on your overall feeling about children and the trans community, what? What would it be? What do you think parents need to hear? What do you what do you wish parents knew? Well, first, what I wish is that we'd stop saying trans kids. I really just wish that Okay, number one. Number two, I wish you would stop. Did I make that mistake? Sorry. I apologize. Not you, not you. Everyone doesn't even I just said it, right? So I don't like pigeon holding children, okay? I don't like putting them into the space. And let's just be honest here. Kids love accolades, right? They love it when my kid plays a piano, everyone's like, well, you're so amazing. So guess what? He plays a piano all the time because he likes hearing everyone say, oh, so kids love that. When kids are trans now they're popular and they're cool. So I think that's our first mistake. I never said that there could be trans kids. Okay, these, but I like to call them kids with dysphoria. They're kids with dysphoria, and some kids will be able to live with them. For the rest of their lives, some kids might need to eventually transition. So what I want parents to hear is this, I think, first off, don't go in those trans parent groups. You're making a huge mistake, because I've been in them, and they're very one sided and they're very mean, and if you don't go along with the agenda, they will say so many mean things to you. You don't need any of that. You need people who are loving, caring, who are honest to you, who can give you factual information, and you can make the right choice as a parent. So I highly suggest you don't pigeon on yourself in that. And I think you have to look at all aspects of the conversation. And I also think you need to get your kid into therapy, 100% into therapy, and I think you're being a great parent by even just having the conversation, okay, that number one right there is just accepting the fact that my child might be different is amazing and makes you an awesome parent. But please don't just take one person's word for it, because all kids are different, and your kid might be that kid who could grow up and be completely okay with it, just maybe let him wear boy clothes or girl clothes for a while and see what happens from there. Right? And don't make a big deal out of it. Everybody's making a big deal out of it. Like, just let your kid, right? You understand what I mean. Like, stop it. I think when I when I picture parents, it's like, we the goal of parents. I think number one is just to stay loving and caring and supportive. And what I'm hearing from you is it doesn't have to be making decisions that may be irreversible, 100% irreversible. I don't care what anybody says they are ear I've interviewed over 100 D transitioners, ones who've transitioned from the age of 10 to ones who transitioned at 16. You cannot change what you put in those kids. If you are doing medical intervention with these kids, you can't reverse it ever, and there will be damage done to these children. So, so what if he's crying in the room and he wants to wear a binder? Oh, well, guess what? You can't have those Nike shoes. No, it's no is a good thing. Sometimes, amen to that. I have a teenager myself who, yeah, she hearing a bit of No, she doesn't like it, but I know it's good for her. No, it's like one of the most important things a parent can say. I mean, I hated it when I was a kid. We all did, right? But as you grow older and you realize that it's just part of being a parent, you got to make boundaries around kids. And you know, like, now, trans is a cool thing to be, let's just be honest. We have to have that conversation. That's why I'm scared that some parents are being manipulated into this process, right? And that's the other thing. I don't want you to be manipulated into it, because maybe your kid isn't, maybe they are, right? It's a big question, and you're dealing with a lot of stuff as a parent, and it breaks my heart, but at the same time, step back a minute and disassociate with this whole trans thing. I think a lot of parents are looking for help, and then they get sucked into this whole sort of transparent thing, and it becomes a very, very dangerous space for you to be in Bucha. You're so amazing. I'm so grateful for your voice. So for parents that are listening. Maybe they know somebody who's struggling feeling gender dysphoria, or they have a child who's feeling gender dysphoric, in addition to finding a good therapist, a community, anything else that you recommend that they reach out to for support. I mean, I'm thinking you, how can they find you and other sources that may be supportive? Yeah, I mean, so So I don't know if you know of Gen spec, they're a great organization. Gen spec org, I think it is also therapy first is an excellent organization. Of all my friends, they're all great therapists. They care about they're not anti trans at all. They want to help. They want to some of them are de transition therapists, like it's a great organization. So I highly recommend those organizations. I also, if you need to get me, I'm on every platform that's out there, YouTube, Instagram, X, I answer all my emails. I might not get you right away. I care about you, and if you need any kind of resources, I have them all. So again, just you know I love that you care about your kid. But what I don't like is that I feel sometimes you're you're being manipulated as a parent. And if you're vulnerable right now as a parent, you're so vulnerable, and instead of us understanding the vulnerability you are as a parent, we're politicizing your vulnerability, vulnerability. That's hard work to say, and I don't like it, so I want to be here to help you as an older transsexual person. Bucha, thank you so much. You are truly a gem, and I'm so grateful to know you, and thank you so much for this conversation. Thanks. Thanks. Dr Jessica, thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Ask. Dr Jessica, also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review, wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr Jessica. See you next Monday. You.