Ep 171: How to create helpful boundaries with our teens? with Dr Candice Feinberg

In this conversation, Dr. Candice Feinberg, a clinical psychologist and CEO of ROWI, a mental health center for teens. In this episode we talk about her book "No Parent Left Behind: How to Parents Teens from Love Instead of Fear".  We talk about the art of setting boundaries with teens-- emphasizing the need for parents to approach parenting from a place of love rather than fear. The discussion highlights the significance of in-person connections and the necessity of seeking support when facing parenting challenges.

For more information on ROWI:

https://rowiteen.com/

And to get Dr Feinberg's book:

https://lioncrest.com/books/no-parent-left-behind-candice-feinberg/

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

For more content from Dr Jessica Hochman:
Instagram: @AskDrJessica
YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica
Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com

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The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Hi everybody. Welcome back to your child is normal, the podcast where I want to help parents worry less and connect more. I'm your host, Dr Jessica Hochman, a pediatrician and mom of three, and today we're tackling a topic that so many parents struggle with, teen emotions and boundary setting. My guest today is Dr Candice Feinberg, founder and CEO of row e teen and parent wellness centers, a mental health center dedicated to supporting teenagers and their families. She's also the author of no parent left behind, how to parent teens from love instead of fear. In this podcast, we're going to talk about her book, a book that helps parents understand that, yes, big emotions are a normal and expected part of adolescence, and also the idea that parents can hold space for the child's feelings while still maintaining boundaries. If you've ever felt overwhelmed by your teens mood swings or struggled to set limits without guilt, this episode is for you now. Let's get started. Dr Candice Feinberg, I'm so happy to meet you. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast. Yeah, my pleasure. So tell me about yourself. Tell me what do you do for work? So I'm a clinical psychologist, and I'm the CEO and founder of row 18 and parent wellness centers. That's amazing. And I'm just so curious what motivated you to open a center I was working actually for other people prior to starting my own company, and they were not clinical people, so I was spending a lot of time really convincing them why we had to do certain things and why things were good investment for them. And, you know, I've wanted to be able to just do good work, and so I actually applied for a small business loan and started rowey with one location in 1000 Oaks, and then grew it to now we're getting ready to open number 18. That's amazing, yeah? And tell everybody, just so they know what rowey is and what you specialize in, and what kind of patients you take care of. Yeah. So rowey is an intensive outpatient and partial hospitalization program for teenagers between 12 to 18. We also have two row kids programs for eight to 11, and it's a intense level of care for teens that are that are really struggling. So it includes school groups, family therapy, individual therapy, and psychiatry. That's the partial hospitalization program, and the intensive outpatient is an after school program with everything but psychiatry for the after school program. So what I find so interesting about rowie is I have a lot of families that need help. They need help with their children, and they'll see a psychologist once a week, and maybe they'll get help from an occupational therapist or maybe somebody else. But it's just not enough. They need more support, and there are a lot of challenging kids out there, and I think it's so great that rowey exists so that parents have somewhere to go to get help. So I really applaud you for what you've built and created. Thank you. And I can't believe you have 18 centers now that's incredible. Yeah, we do a lot of psycho education, so teaching them about coping skills and maybe nutrition and all the sleep hygiene and various things. So there's a lot of different education and then process or insight oriented, where they learn to connect the dots. I do this because this happens or why they are how they are. And then we do individual therapy, family therapy. They meet weekly with the psychiatrist. So it's, it's a pretty comprehensive program. Sounds like you have a real team built. Yes. And can you describe some of the common issues or situations, why kids are at rowey? Yeah. I mean, generally when, when a parent is calling to get their kid help, they've usually waited too long, right? So at this point, there's been some pretty significant impairment in in their kids functioning, and it may be that something happened at school where they got suspended, or it could be that they're refusing to go to school and won't get out of bed, and they generally are not working right. Their hygiene might be suffering, refusing to go to school, or they're getting bad, bad grades, but something got the parents to call to seek help, very nice. Oh, yeah. I mean, we've had so many parents who said that we gave them their kid back, or we saved their kids life. I mean, there's a lot of a lot of great stories that have come out of rowey. It's so rewarding. Yep, very rewarding. And I'm just curious, you don't have to have an answer to this question, but do you see it growing even more? Or where do you see rowey going in the future? Oh, yeah, we're gonna continue to grow, for sure. I mean. There's not a lot of programs like this, and we are specific also to mental health. So we don't treat eating disorders, we don't treat substance abuse, we just treat mental health. And I think we're probably the only program that that can say that. So there's a lot of a lot of communities that still don't have access to a rowey. I mean, what a wonderful service you provide. I think, honestly, it's so nice to know that you are out there, and I'm hoping that by talking with you, maybe somebody listening knows of a friend or a family member or somebody in their community that would benefit from a program like rowey. So and just to ask this, because I know this is the question that everybody thinks about, but maybe afraid to ask, what would a family expect the cost to look like we are. We are almost predominantly insurance, so probably 98% insurance covered treatment. We try, we've tried to be contracted in a network with men, with most of the big providers, so the cost is whatever is left in their deductible and their co pay. It's amazing. That's great to hear. I was nervous for what you're going to respond to that question. So, yeah, no, I taking insurance. That's a great, great thing to hear. Yeah, I always wanted that to be like reasonable, where they're not having to take too much time off work, which can be incredibly stressful for parents, and also not cost prohibited. So thank you for explaining, rowie, I really appreciate you painting a picture of what it's like and understanding who who you serve. I didn't realize that it was just specifically for mental health, so that's great to know. Now I'd love to ask you, you wrote a book. So I would love to ask you about it. Yes, I did. I wrote a book. I wrote a book for the parents of the kids that we work with. Yeah. Tell us. Tell us the title the book. The book is no parent left behind, and it's about parenting from love instead of fear. And the book in particular is geared towards parents of teens, correct, correct. It's geared towards parents of teens that are struggling with mental health issues. It's very it was 100% written for the parents of the kids we serve. Amazing. Okay, and then I know one of the points that you talk about, which I think is so important, is talking about how to set boundaries in a way that teenagers can feel safe and that that can engender trust for the teens. Can you explain that a little more? What you mean by that kids need boundaries in their job as teens, especially, their job is to push your boundaries, right? So like when I talk about boundaries, I'm talking about it's a structure that helps them manage their emotions, that's it's predictable, that it's clear, and that you have follow through with with the boundaries you set. And again, it's there. If the kids job is to push the boundaries. And I always tell the parents, if you can enforce that, then okay, but if you can't, then don't set that. Don't set that boundary or expectation, because if you can't enforce it, then the ones you you know, the other ones, they'll push against everything. And do you find they don't generally enforce boundaries because they're parenting from a place of fear, that they're afraid of what their child will do, or how they will or how they will respond? Yeah. I mean, I had a mom once that told me, like her son told her he was going to kill himself if she didn't turn the Internet back on. And I said, Well, please tell me you didn't turn the internet on, because what are you going to do next by him a BMW? I mean, you just can't give in to that. You have to take him and get him assessed at the hospital when he says something like that, and let him know you take it seriously, but, but, yeah, no. Parents are definitely afraid of their kids. They're afraid of them hurting themselves or others. They're afraid of them falling behind in school. When something goes wrong in your kid's life, it's a natural for a parent to catastrophize. You know, they're never going to go to college, they're never going to get married, they're never, you know, like worrying about everything and nothing good comes from that so true. I mean, I have a teenager myself, and sometimes I know I need to say no to her, but I'm afraid of the reaction that I'm going to get from her, and so sometimes I avoid confronting her because I don't want to deal with the reaction. So you're right. I think I can admit that I am one of those parents that sometimes I am afraid of my children's reaction. I wish I wasn't, but it is true. Yeah, I've had so many videos sent to me of parents, when they take they I don't know why they videotape this or why they send it to me, but videotaping taking technology away from their kid, just just so that, because they probably think you can't imagine the reaction, so I'm going to show you what it looks like, and it's scary. That was actually going to be my next question. The conversation that I have with parents, where they are the most afraid to say no to their kids, by far and away, is technology. They're so afraid to take the phone away, they're so. Afraid to take social media away. They're so afraid to take video games away, even when parents clearly know it's not benefiting their child, and that's that it's not helping their life and that they need to scale back on the technology. They have a hard time saying no. So what would what is your general advice to parents in that situation? I mean, I keep waiting for the next generation of parents that knows better that because, you know, the My first question, and that popped into my head was, who gave it to them in the first place? Right? Like, where'd they get the technology? They didn't go sign up for a phone, right? Right? I mean, it's starting so young, where you see in restaurants, they can't sit through a dinner without, you know, having the iPad propped in front of them. So, you know, it starts. It starts as a convenience for us, right? We give it to them to entertain them as a babysitter, keep them quiet and content. You know, when, when I was kid, I love telling these stories. You know, I could stare out the window and daydream for hours in the car. I didn't have to have something a screen to look at in front of me. There didn't exist. And kids have lost that ability to sort of create, have creative thought and to deal with boredom. You know, my kids are now 29 and 31 and I think this, the smartphone came out in 2010 so that wasn't, you know, it wasn't in existence as they were children, that it came later. But the but the kids now, have never been without it. With technology, it's a it's a double edged sword, where you, can't function in this world without it. You can't apply for a job. You can't apply for college. There's so many things that even school, you know you during COVID, the kids were dependent on technology to get their education done. So these kids know better than we did, right? So my kids are way more savvy with a computer than I am, but they're going to be the smart one. So So hopefully that'll shift, but so you you also have to teach them. I think it was my son told me the Internet is a dark place. And I was like, not my internet. My internet's pretty. It's not dark, right? So just puppies and rainbows, right? Like, I'm not, I'm not looking for dark things. I'm looking for the flower shop or, you know, so, so my internet's not dark, and that was like startling to me. But if somebody's, if somebody's struggling or in a dark place, they're going to be searching for dark things, and they're going to find them. And so the and this is true whether it's in online or in the real world, right? You could drive down the main boulevard in your town, and if you're hungry, you're going to see all the restaurants, right? And but if you're not, you won't see them at all. You'll see whatever is of interest to you. And so teaching the kids how to look both ways before crossing the street on the internet is important. So they have to, they have to be taught how we have to be taught how to survive in this world. They have to be taught how to survive in the in the cyber world. And and they need controls, right? We don't just say, we just don't say to a toddler like, you know, don't, don't go down the stairs. We put gates up. So we've to, you know, it has to be, there has to be a better way of us educating kids on how to use the internet, on the access they have to the internet, because eliminating it is not an option. It's it's here to stay. It's here to stay. I agree with that. I I think the issue that I have is how young kids are starting on social media. That's something that I see all the time, and parents when they hear recommendations that their children should be on social media starting at an older age. For example, Jonathan, Jonathan heights, new book The anxious the anxious generation recommends starting social media at 16. And I have parents where they have 1011, 12 year olds, and they say, well, it's too late. This is where they see their friends. Snapchat is how they get together with their friends, how they communicate. The video games is where they see their friends, and they feel like taking it away would be harmful to their social life, into their mental health. But what do you think about that? I maybe the more realistic answer is to set limits. Is that possible take it away when they're just so young? No, I think, I mean, I think I understand, like I never had to deal with that, and I'm really grateful for that, but I do see that it is there are some situations where what they're saying is true, right? Their kids are more social. They are they are connecting with their friends and their peers, and they and those kids are also involved in clubs at school and after school activities and playing sports and doing things those. Kids aren't the that's not the problem, right? It's the kids that are on the internet and won't come out of their room, yeah? So, so you so if your kid is saying, Well, I'm using it to see my friends and they're not leaving their room, right? Then, then, then it is a problem. I mean, I think it's funny, because every time we've had any kind of technology that's been created. And this goes back to even when, in Plato's Phaedrus, it was Socrates was, you know, saying about the written language. No, you'll people will not learn how to talk to each other. It's terrible. Written language is awful. And and, you know, they, they threw the Telegraph in the ocean. And every technology has, they've said has been horrible and so bad, and really, the only one that did decrease social stuff was television, because that's a one way, that's a one way communication system. And so the internet has made kids more social, and it has made kids more engaged in in activities and clubs and things, but it's also done the opposite. So it's not, it's not the it's not the internet by itself that should get the bad rap. It's the user user error. What I always tell my children is, there's no substitute for in person connection. So you may have a conversation over text or on social media, but there is no better memory created than when you are with somebody in real life. And so I agree with you. If kids are active, they're in clubs or in sports, and they're seeing their friends that way, and then they happen to talk on the side using their phones, okay, but if it's their only means of connection that can't be healthy. No, no, for sure. And kids, I mean, one of the biggest challenges we have with the kids, and I think one of the leading causes of depression and anxiety, is a lack of social skills, with the inability for them to read people's faces and and be, you know, be comfortable. There's a, there's a there's a ton of social anxiety, and a lot of moments at school where I, I call it social suicide, where the kid says something inappropriate or doesn't read a conversation Well, and then they say something then, then they get, you know, blacklisted from that group, that friend group, and, and, and so what I've seen is just an incredible lack of social skills that's causing a lot of issues. So when you talk to parents about these issues, do you empower them that it's okay to set limits and boundaries, and what would that conversation look like with their teen? Like, let's say their teen says, Mom, I can't stop social media. This is my friend group. If you took away my phone, you'll be causing social suicide, and they'll and they throw out some sort of threat. How would you respond to the teenager? I mean, you're, you're paying for them to have access to that, to that device. So you own, you own the rights to it. You get to control if their grades are suffering. I mean, if a kid is, you know, is playing sports, doing well in school, has good relationships with their peers, has good relationships with you. It's not an issue, right? It's only an issue when, when the rest whenever, when all the other pieces start falling. So when those pieces start falling, then you set expectations. You can you can go on the internet or social media. When your grades come back up, if you attend school, if you do your chore, you know there's like you you set whatever your priorities are and and so they have. It's not that you're taking it away, it's that they have to earn it. Yes, and I think you're right about how helpful it can be to set boundaries from the outset. For example, my 14 year old, she's had a phone now for a year. It can only talk and text. There's no internet capabilities on her phone, but we had a long conversation before she got her phone, because, quite frankly, I was really nervous for her to get a phone, because I see kids in my office all the time. I walk in the room, they don't make eye contact with me. They like their phone. Has to be by their side. They can't stop looking at their phone, even during visits. And so it terrifies me that my daughter will become like that so dependent on a phone from such a young age, and I know it's only going to get worse, or maybe I'm wrong, but the trajectory is scary to me too. So I what we did was we wrote a contract. We wrote a very detailed contract of what I was expecting from her, how long she should be on her phone. You know, what she could what she could do with her phone. So for example, it was very important to me that when she has dinner with us, that she's not on her phone, or that if we go on vacation, I don't lose her to her phone. And so we clearly delineated that in the contract. I guess I'm saying this out loud for any parent listening, that you can do that too. You can write a contract. You can be very clear with your expectations. And to your point, as you mentioned at the very beginning of discussing your book, how important is to set boundaries and. She breaks those boundaries that I follow through with a disciplinary action. So in her case, if she doesn't follow it, I'm going to take her phone away for a few days. I don't remember what's on the contract, but I think I take her phone away for 72 hours. Yeah, no, that's perfect. And I've told the I've written many of those contracts for with families. And you know, the parents will call me and say, well, this happened. I go, Well, what's the contract say? Like, right? What does it say that you okay, that's what you have to do. And that's why I'm always if you can't enforce something, then don't put it in there. Put what you can enforce. And the other thing that came to mind is looking at your your relationship with the phone and technology, and are you? Do you have your phone out at the table, and so setting the standards for for your family and what the expectations are? I completely agree with you, because it's true, parents, we ourselves are terrible. I look around at parents all the time, at restaurants out and about. This morning, I was in line to get coffee. Every single person online was staring at their phone. So you're right. We're asking a lot of our teens if we can't be good role models ourselves. And you bring up a great you bring up a great point about acting with respect to others as well, because our kids are watching us. So they watch how we talk about people. They watch what we say about people, what we what we remark about people on the internet. So great reminder to parents that we should also act as we want our kids to act. We want to we want to be good role models for our children. I have a game I play at Starbucks. I go watch the line, and it's just, I think it someone gets in line, and it not more than a minute goes by before they're pulling their phone out to stare at it and check it for, I'm not sure what, but there, there is, if you look at the line, it's every person with their head down. And I said, I said to my son the other day, I'm like, you know, sometimes I'll talk to the person in line in front of me, and they just look at me like, I'm weird, like, I'm strange. Like, why is she talking to me? But it used to be normal. Used to be normal. And also, I think there's an element of contagion. If I'm next to someone online and they pull out their phone, then I think, Oh, I guess I should pull out my phone. So it is true that role modeling does make a difference. I believe, yes, 100% now another question I want to ask you, because I think this is such this would be such a helpful topic to hear from you about, but you talk in your book about how parents can respond to the emotional outbursts of teens. Do you have any advice from the outset, some practical ways for parents to respond to the moment when their kids do have an outburst? Yeah, I think what we generally do is that we it escalates. Us. Right? Our kid escalates and we escalate. Nothing productive comes from that. And then I have a saying, all feelings are welcome. So can be angry or sad or frustrated, whatever it is, right? All feelings are welcome. So validate that. What how they're feeling. And then, and then you can, you know, talk them through it later. You know, when they're completely dysregulated their emotions and they're overreacting to something you're not going to make any sense to them or get through to them or convince them of anything in that moment. So you know, you in the moment, you allow them to express their feelings, and then discuss with them other ways that they could, they could share, you know, what's going on with them. But I think that all too often what we do is just shut it down, or we tell them, Oh, don't. You shouldn't feel that way, or don't do that, or that's not appropriate. And in, you know, sometimes there are times where it's, you know, not appropriate to express certain feelings in certain places, but when you have the opportunity to to empathize with them. And yeah, it sucks. I know, yeah, empathy goes a long way. Absolutely goes a long it goes a long way. And in if you engage in a in a argument with a teenager, you're gonna lose. You are losing because it's a new found skill for them in this and they all want to argue. They want to argue about everything. I've had so many parents say my kid's gonna would make such a great lawyer. They love to argue. And I'm like, No, it's they're just practicing. They don't love to argue. It'll they'll grow out of it eventually. Yeah, I had a parent tell me this week. They said, Oh, is your kid at the stage yet where they tell you don't know anything? I said, we're not, we're not there yet. They're like, just give it a little bit of time. You'll, you'll be there soon. They all like to tell us that we don't know anything. Yep, yeah. And then when they're, you know, when they turn 25 they're like, Wow, you learned fast. Yes, yes. I, I will admit for myself, something that I would I'm always trying to work on as a parent, is I have a hard time with screaming and yelling. My husband is much better at it. I think maybe I'm more sensitive to it. I just want to end, you know, I'm always happy to talk and hear problems and brainstorm, but I have a hard time when, when they're, you know, when there are outbursts. And I was talking to my husband about. Other day, said, how, how do you not hear it? How am I so much more sensitive than you are? And he said, You know, I try to appreciate the stage of parenting. I just, I just look at it as a stage, and I want to appreciate it. And someday we're not going to have teens anymore at our house. So I thought, Wow, what a what a healthy outlook, and I'm trying to use him as my influence, because I think as parents, it can be easy to get sucked into it when really it's just a normal part of their existence as teenagers, yeah, no, it is definitely a developmental stage, and they grow out of it. It's so much easier for me to do this with somebody else's children than my own. So same. Yes, I agree. I agree. I if I see a parent here at work, I'm always happy to give advice and brainstorm, but then I can see in my own life if, yeah, especially something like an emotional outburst, very tricky and hard to stay calm in the moment, but it does make a big difference. I agree, leading with empathy, I think is great advice. Yeah, I have a I have a technique that I teach our therapist is that, you know, particularly in family work, it can be pretty high conflict, and when you're right there, it's easy to get sucked into it. So if you like, imagine you're in a theater and you're you put yourself in the back row, so you create a little distance to where you're just an observer and you're watching, and when you can observe it, you see it from a different perspective, and you don't have that emotional pull. That's great. So just view it as I'm an observer. I'm watching this play out, but I don't have to play into it, right? That's great. I love that. Do you have any other practical ways for parents to respond in the moment of an emotional outburst? I mean, there's so many every there's so many things, you know, to find your pause button, right? Find a shiny object, like I always say, you know, when I was in residential and I had a kid that would was about to, about to blow, I would be like, you want to come take the trash out with me. Or, Oh, look at the look at the squirrel in that tree. Or just anything to kind of sort of distract and and bring it down. Because, you know, engaging with them is just never, it's never going to work. So, so I, I my shiny object is my other go to, yes, I once heard a technique just saying, Do you guys mind if we take a pause on this fight and come back to it later? Can we do something else and we'll come, we'll come back to it. We'll come back to it. We'll come back to it an hour. We'll come back to it tomorrow. And it's amazing how if you can, if you can, if you can take a break and come back to it, the conversation tends to be a lot more, a lot more calmer and a lot easier to have. Yeah, the secret is catching it before it gets to that point where you're gonna fight no matter what, like you just, you've already gotten yourself there, and you're gonna fight. So if you can recognize it in yourself or in your loved one before, and find a way to like, where this isn't, we're gonna, we're gonna find pause here. Okay, so, so just to bring it back. So your strategy, your reminder to parents, or your overall message in your book, is to think about parenting them from a place of love and not being afraid of them. Yes, not being and not being afraid of their reaction to your parenting. And not parenting out of fear, not making choices out of fear. And it's hard to tell the difference sometimes, because parents will say, Well, I did that because I love them, and we know if we dig into it a little bit. So this is fun one. So I'm, I do tell a parenting fail failure story in each chapter of my book. So I did my son's eighth grade science fair project because he told me the night before it was due, and I can write a research paper. I mean, it was good. It went to the big fair for the whole city, and he got to get out of school. I'm like, You better read that, because they're going to ask you about it. But I I can easily justify that I did that because I love him and I didn't want him to fall behind or be ashamed that he didn't have it done because it was a big thing, and all of that is easy to justify, right? But I that's not the truth. The truth is I did it out of fear, my own fear of him falling behind or getting in trouble, or having his self esteem hurt or whatever it was. It was my fears. It if I the parenting choice of love is to let him deal with the natural consequences of it, right? And and so again, sometimes it's easy. We try to justify what we're doing, um, as parenting from love, but it, but it's usually coming out of fear, and that's where nothing good comes. Sometimes it's tricky. Sometimes there's a gray zone with this, because, for example, I'm thinking, last week, my daughter left her Invisalign at home. You know, I pay for her Invisalign. She left it at home. And she said, Mommy, can you go home and get my Invisalign? And I said, No, I'm going to be late to work. I can't get your Invisalign. And she was upset with me that I wouldn't, that I wouldn't do that for her. I was going to mess up her teeth, but you have to hold the boundary. And I just figured, there's so many situations where parents. Also, you know, we have to pay for a little bit too, so to speak. But that's how they learn their lesson. I can't save the day for her with everything, right? I think, I mean, I think sometimes, when people, parents will, we do that often, it's lunch, right? And so they, they take their kids lunch to them, well, they're not going to starve, you know, we think they're going to starve, right? They're not going to starve without lunch for one day, and they'll probably end up eating half of their friend's lunch anyway, so, and that might even happen if they take their lunch. So it's really making those, those choices, but we know why we do things, right? We know was this for me or for them? They don't know. They ask you to do it. You your reason for doing it or not doing it, you know that, but they don't. Right of parenting is so tricky, so hard. I mean, someone asked me the other day, when do you know if your kid needs help with or needs to go get you know, see somebody for their mental health? And I said, Well, would you ask me that question? If it were physical health? Would you ask me, like, Well, how do I know when to take a kid to the doctor? Well, we take them every year. We take them for wellness, for well, checkups, right? Why can't we do that with mental health? Why can't we approach mental health like that, and you and I could go to treatment and we're going to improve and get better. So, so yeah, anybody that has teenagers. A lot of the stuff we talked about, isn't it? These weren't issues that were that were because of a mental health these are just life issues, right for getting things for school and and too much time on social media and all these things. So so, yeah, any parent can learn how to better maneuver the teenage years. Well. Thank you so much. Any before we close, any final words of wisdom or anything you'd like to impart upon parents before we finish off, you know, I think just reach out to somebody if you have any questions and or concerns about any behaviors, and even if it's just a girlfriend, what would you do in this situation? But you know, get outside of get get outside of your own experience and and get support. Because there's a whole there's a whole world out there that that wants to help. That's great advice, because I do think sometimes the behavior of our children can feel embarrassing to talk about. And I promise you, parents listening, you are not alone. Children have their moments. They can be difficult, but please don't struggle alone. Reach out and get help. And I think that is very true and wise advice. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you so much for coming on here, and any parents that are listening. If rowie Sounds like a good fit for anybody that you know, definitely check out the website. I will link it below in the show notes. And thank you so much, Dr Candice Feinberg, for the work that you do and for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. That was my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of your child is normal. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review, wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr Jessica, see you next Monday. You.