Ep 178: The Seven Principles to help Connection with your Child, with Ned Johnson

Ep 178: Ned Johnson joins Dr Jessica Hochman on "Your Child is Normal"  and they explore the complexities of parenting, emphasizing the importance of connection, understanding, and enjoying the journey with children. Ned shares insights from his new book,  "Seven principles for raising self-driven children", highlighting practical strategies for building lasting relationships with their children.

To purchase Ned's new book The Seven Principles for Raising a Self-Driven Child: A Workbook click here

Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.

For more content from Dr Jessica Hochman:
Instagram: @AskDrJessica
YouTube channel: Ask Dr Jessica
Website: www.askdrjessicamd.com

-For a plant-based, USDA Organic certified vitamin supplement, check out : Llama Naturals Vitamin and use discount code: DRJESSICA20

-To test your child's microbiome and get recommendations, check out:
Tiny Health using code: DRJESSICA

Do you have a future topic you'd like Dr Jessica Hochman to discuss? Email Dr Jessica Hochman askdrjessicamd@gmail.com.

The information presented in Ask Dr Jessica is for general educational purposes only. She does not diagnose medical conditions or formulate treatment plans for specific individuals. If you have a concern about your child's health, be sure to call your child's health care provider.

Transcript

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Sometimes life brings unexpected silver linings. I met today's guest, Carson Meyer in the middle of the Los Angeles fires While both of us were evacuated from our homes. When we started talking, I learned that Carson is a doula, a passionate advocate for maternal wellness, and now an author. Her new book growing together, doula wisdom and holistic practices for pregnancy, birth and early motherhood just came out this week. It's a beautiful week by week, companion for expectant parents, filled with guidance, reassurance and practical wisdom. What I love about Carson's approach is how she honors the natural process, helps women trust their bodies and reminds them that their experience, whatever it looks like, is valid, normal and worthy of support. It was truly a privilege to reconnect with her for this conversation, and I think you'll take so much from her insight and warmth. And before we get started, if you don't mind taking a moment to leave a five star review, wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I greatly appreciate it. Your reviews helps other people find your child as normal, and that helps us continue reaching more parents who need a little less worry and a little more reassurance. Now on to the podcast. I am so excited to have here. Carson Meyer, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thanks for having me. Carson is a very special human being. She's a mother, a doula, a child birth educator, and now she's an author of a fantastic, wonderful, wonderful book. I'm so proud of you for writing it. Thank you so much. I'm so excited. I have always dreamed of writing a book, and I had just had no idea that the opportunity would come the week I was due to give birth, or, like, right around my due range. I got a call from Chronicle about it, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is a dream. I'm so excited. And if you read my book, you know, I'm really big on that sacred window, taking time and space to, yeah, just to be present in those early weeks and months and even years when you don't get it back. And so I spent the first two years of motherhood writing a book, which I'd say are probably like two of the biggest feats you can do at the same time, but the book is so reflective of my journey, and I don't think I would have been able to recall and chronicle the feelings had it been later, like I would have in real time. So I'm so grateful that it came at that time, because I got to just like, be in it and write about it. I can see that the memories are much more fresh as you're going through it. So I'm sure that added a lot of authenticity to the book. It actually sounds like perfect timing, as hard as it sounds to have done both. I'm so glad that you were able to put it together. Thank you. You too. So tell me first, so the audience is aware you're a doula. What is a doula Exactly? Can you just describe what a doula means to you? Yeah, and that's a good way of phrasing it, because doulas have so many different definitions and ways of approaching this work. But to me, it's always just been in service to the woman and the family through the transformation of birth, of pregnancy, even preconception birth and the initial postpartum period. And so this looks different, like I said, depending on what the doula offers for me, education is a big part of it. And more and more, I realized that the best way that I could set myself my clients up for success was by helping to prepare them in pregnancy, more so, even than being at the present at the birth, which is obviously such a wonderful and beautiful part of it, and so I'm a certified nutrition consultant, so I incorporate that in my prenatal education. I teach community circles that are childbirth education circles for moms, and then during the birth, doulas attend the birth whether it's home, hospital, birth center, provide hands on comfort measures and help facilitate conversations between their provider and hospital staff to help them advocate for themselves. What I think sounds so beautiful about your description of doulas is that really you're just there to support a mother and her partner. And what's so fascinating to me is myself being part of the medical community, I can see that what we offer to mothers throughout pregnancy isn't enough, that you really need more support. And I do find that a lot of people nowadays, we are not always living by our families. We need more of a village. And so what a beautiful concept that a doula can be, that support can offer that support for families. Thank you. Yeah, it's interesting. I was asked this on a podcast yesterday, like, how providers and doulas can work together, and, you know, it barely varies and depends, like, who that provider is and their willingness. But I said, I was like, you know, you have a good doctor if they're gung ho on you having a doula. Because not only does the evidence show that birth outcomes are better across the board for mom and baby in the present, when a doula is present, but also it's a provider that recognizes your emotional needs and wants you to have what you need to feel good, whatever that is. And so that's why I immediately we hit it off, because I saw that you. You recognize that I agree with that. I have to say, I do notice there's this funny cultural aspect in medicine, where, when a family shows up to the hospital with a birth plan, I notice that some OBS, some pediatricians, don't really look at it too fondly. You know, they'll sort of say, Oh, the bigger the birth plan, the more trouble the patient's going to be, and I don't like that we have that attitude that's prevailing, because it's the opposite of what we all want to accomplish, which is we want to work together. We want to support the parents together. And so I'm so glad that we're bringing this up, because I do think it's really important that we do support the families in their entirety. So now tell me, I'm just so everybody knows. And here's your beautiful story. What inspires you to become a doula? So in the book, I talk a little bit about my own, like my mother's birth with me, how I believe that we have an imprinting that takes place prior to birth that really helps define who we are and who we become and what we're passionate about. And so that's one part of it. I think it was a calling that was always there, but certainly was not one that I was cognizant of simply because of the culture that we're in. I, like so many young women in America, was terrified of the thought of birth so close to my mom, my sisters were moms like when I was young, and so I just had this deep reverence and appreciation and admiration from others. But I was like, and that's crazy, and I'm never doing that scary and just overwhelming and all of it. And it wasn't until I saw the business of being born, which is the documentary about birth in America, that Ricky Lake and Abby Epstein made my gosh over 15 years ago, but that film was like, my aha moment. I was in college, and I'll never forget the emotional response I had, and I remember my older sister being like, I don't know if it's normal that you like, have been crying for three days over a Ricky Lake documentary, like, are you okay? And I was like, this is like waking something up inside of me that is, like a deep calling. And I was so blown away to see for the first time ever, footage of birth that was unscripted, so like, not the Hollywood depiction of birth and and just seeing it be this empowering and sensual and, like, just ecstatic experience for women was was so inspiring to me. And I felt like I was like, when, when was anyone gonna come back into my adult life and let me in on this? Because I had had all the ingrained fear, but no one came back to tell me, actually, it can be wonderful, and here's how. And I realized it's because a lot of a lot of people don't have that information themselves. So true. First, I think how wonderful that you found your calling. It sounds like it's definitely your true calling. And I agree with you. I do feel like actually the theme of my podcast is I'm trying to lessen the fears of the parenting experience, and I feel like a really helpful way to do that is to feel empowered, to feel advocated for to gain knowledge, because I feel like the more you know, the more you can feel calmer, and the more you can actually enjoy what's happening around you. And it seems like that's your theme as well. Yeah, I do, and it's in my the 11 week sessions that I offer called growing together, which is what the book is named after. It's always my favorite one to talk about the physiology of birth and like, what happens in the body the hormones. Because when you understand and see the mechanisms at play, it's like you can't help but be less scared, because it's such a brilliant system as all systems in our bodies are. You know, during residency, you see hundreds and hundreds of births. So I don't go to I don't go to birth so much anymore. But every single time I saw a delivery, it was fascinating to me. It never got old. Yeah, no. And it never makes complete logical sense, too, no matter how, like, sciency, or, you know, into the Yeah, the like, the mechanism of the body you get, I say to my clients too, like we have to also leave room for the mystery and like, whatever this means to you, the spiritual aspect of birth. Because no matter you know how many years in med school, how many years you've studied this, how many years of a doula, how many births you've seen or given birth yourself, it does not exist in the realm of anything that makes sense, a human is coming out of you, and it's a divine, wild experience. It's true. It is a complete miracle, nothing short of a complete miracle. I also think it's interesting how you know, once you have a baby, that day that you've delivered, you never forget that day. So many days in your life, they blend together. You can forget, but it's definitely a day that will forever be imprinted in your mind. Yeah, it's so special that you get to be part of it. So something that I think about a lot when it comes to giving birth and preparing for birth is I do feel like in the US, we've over medicalized something that should feel more natural. Natural. And I really like that doulas can help remind us of that. They can help ground us, that it is a normal process. Yeah, so how do you feel like you've helped parents prepare for pregnancy? So kind of again, going back to this understanding of the body, there's so many different ways, but I always like to start with with that, because we don't really learn that ever as women again, we we're lucky. We get sex ed, we get a little bit of like the birds and the bees that way. But we're not really understanding, you know, how oxytocin plays a role, right? How? Which, for those who aren't familiar with oxytocin, it's a love hormone that is released in our bodies when we're when we're laughing, when we're with people we love, when we're in intimate situations, when we're having sex, when we're with our children, when we're cuddling with our pets, right? And so it's literally that's why it's called the love hormone. It is the highest surge of oxytocin you ever get, is in labor and birth and immediately after. And I like this for my more like science minded or medical minded clients, which I have a lot of to be like, this is that proof that feeling good, right, and feeling safe is actually going to benefit the process? And so knowing things like this, learning about those hormones, learning how we can support them, learning how you know our body knows how to show up for us is, I think, the first steps exactly what you said that education, also what I offer a lot in my book and in my work with clients, is that introspection, journaling, writing, every week of the book has a prompt, and one of those prompts is working through your fears and then seeing where they're coming from, because sometimes they are not ours, right? Like these are fears that have been passed down through generations. We have generations of women who have been very disconnected from this process, most of our grandmothers probably gave birth under Twilight sleep right for many years, babies were whisked away right away and taken to the nursery, and mom and baby maybe didn't really have any time to connect right after birth. And so the last century, there are some really horrifying birth practices that give us good reason to be afraid, and so just looking at that, I think, can help people contextualize some of the fear that feels like they were born with this fear, but in fact, it's a fear that maybe we're born with, right? But it doesn't mean that it's necessarily a primal fear, but one that we can work through in our understanding of our mothers and grandmothers relationship to birth. So that's one. So I know you mentioned that you were scared when you were pregnant. Do you think that fear within you came from the story that you heard about yourself and your mom? Yeah, so I think I mean, I had a tremendous amount of fear, as I mentioned in the beginning around birth, prior to becoming a doula, prior to having this understanding of birth and the way that it could be. And so I do feel like the nearly decade of work and experience as a doula before leading up to my own birth helped chisel away at so much fear. And I think that everybody, no matter how experienced you are, we we because of its gravity and magnitude. Like, there's a reverence that we walk into it with. There's also a grief too, of knowing, like, how much is going to change in your life. And so, yeah, I remember, like, those last few days of just being like, I want to get it over with, like, any big jump off a cliff, you're like, can I just go? Because I don't want to stand here and look, and I don't know if that was so much my fear of birth, but just my understanding of, like, something big is about to happen, and it's eminent, and I can't turn back and, like, let's just let me do it already. And that's why I think that last week or month, especially for those who go past their due date, for those listening, I'm doing air quotes, it just can feel like torture, because you have to sit with that discomfort of what you know you're about to be facing and is the most incredible thing on the other side, but it's big work. I remember I always felt nervous during my pregnancy. I'm pretty sure a lot of it had to do with my mom would always tell us stories about how difficult labor was. She had a hard experience delivering me. She had a fourth degree laceration, so she was she always said it was so worth it. But I had been raised hearing stories about how traumatic her birth experience was. But I remember I kept telling myself when I was pregnant, everybody that exists on the universe, their mother went through the same thing, and they got through it, and they're here to tell the tale. And so I said, for everybody that's existing today on this earth, which is. 8 billion people and all their mothers have successfully delivered a baby. I know I can do it too, and I can make it to the other end. So I don't know why statistics have always comforted me, but that definitely gave me reassurance as I went through my pregnancy. Totally also another one that I think is so cool to think about, but in any given moment when you're laboring, there's a couple 100,000 women across the world laboring at the same time as you and so that, I think, is a feeling that's really special, like you're not, yes, it's a journey you have to go on by yourself with your baby. But you're really never alone. You're never alone, especially if you have a doula. So I was so curious about the statistic that you talked about in your book. I'd love for you to talk about this, how common is it in the United States to actually use a doula? It's only about 6% of women utilize doula support. And I'd say it's becoming, I think it's becoming more popular or common, but obviously, based on that statistic, is not a significant amount of people. And you had mentioned that there's evidence based data showing that there's benefits to using a doula. What is that evidence? Yeah, so it really is across the board. So for babies, the Apgar scores tend to be higher. There's less use of medication reported when someone has a doula, lower induction rates, higher maternal satisfaction, which I think is just the most important overall. So along with the Cesarean rates and all of that dropping, the fact that moms report higher satisfaction, I think is the most important to look at. I would agree with you when I was reading that paragraph in your book about what the evidence showed to support benefits from using a doula perceived parental satisfaction. I agree with you. I think that's the most important. Why should why shouldn't pregnancy be a time that we enjoy and revel in and and have a good experience? So that's that's beautiful. And I think too, when we talk like people who are listening like, why would that be more most important, wouldn't like the baby's health and all that. Like, of course, those are important. But when we we think of birth, and we talk about birth, not everybody, for some, avoiding cesarean is like the most important part, right? Or for some, not having pain management is most important part. But for everyone across board, no matter what they choose and how they choose they want to have a positive experience. And so it's less so about like, what that birth looks like, but what they will remember is how they were treated, how they crossed that threshold, and the support they had. And so that comes back to it. You know, I love that you're acknowledging that too as a doctor, because we often hear healthy mom, healthy baby, that's all that matters. And it's not right, because throughout whatever we're going through in life, how the experience sits with us because of those who are around us is such a big part of it. I'm curious your thoughts on C section rates. When I look at pregnancy and delivery and how our current medical system is set up, I think we're so focused on healthy mom, healthy delivery, that we're seeing an increase in C sections, and in my mind, we're probably doing more than we need to. And I'm curious, from your perspective as a doula, what do you wish doctors knew more or families knew more, so that potentially we would see fewer C sections? Yeah, so a lot of the intervention that is routine in obstetrics, is treating everybody like they're high risk. And we actually, we have, we spend the most money in obstetrics. We have all the technology, but we have the worst outcomes of the developed world right, which is showing us, and we have the highest cesarean rates. Share with everybody what those rates are. So the World Health Organization says we should be at a 12% in terms of a cesarean rate to reflect its necessary use as a life saving procedure for mom or baby. We're at 30. And some states, like Texas, I believe, is around 50, right? So it is a lot, a lot higher than what the standard is. I believe there's so many different factors that play into this, but things like induction or the overuse and misuse of ultrasound and fetal monitoring, right? Can all be associated with a higher unnecessary use of cesarean it's also interesting to me, because when you look at the data on fetal monitoring, or especially on their heart rate, I don't think there's any evidence to show that it's improved outcomes with deliveries, but we use them all the time, and they're so annoying to listen to as you're pregnant and delivering, I mean, and that's a perfect example of how our fear of liability, which is another really big part of why our cesarean rates are so high, this is where the heart rate monitor comes in, because it's not about it improving outcomes, it's about the hospital needs that heart rate on record in case they get sued, or in case there's a malpractice suit, and they need to be able to utilize the heart rate as evidence. Okay. I agree with you. I actually think, you know, I'm not looking at any statistics here when I talk right now, but in my view, if I were to guess, I think that most unnecessary C sections, or I should say C sections that could have been avoided, are probably driven by a concern for potential liability. Yeah, because I think, as a doctor, you don't get in trouble for doing an extra C section, you would get in trouble for not doing enough. Yeah, yeah. It holds up a lot better in court to say I did everything I could. C section, this, this intervention, this versus I watched and waited. I agree. Unfortunately, when I was pregnant for the first time that the heart rate monitor showed her heart rate dropping. This is my first born, her heart rate was dropping for a while, and they were concerned about it, and they actually sent me to the operating room to have a C section. I got prepared for a C section. They said, We have to make this happen. Her heart rate has been too low for too long, and so, of course, you want a healthy baby, healthy mom. So I went along with it. And then I'm so grateful because the OB that came in to do this. Azarian, she looked at me, and she noticed that when I turned on my side, the heart rate went up to normal. And she said, Hmm, the heart rate went up to normal as you're on your side, why don't we watch this mom for a little bit, and I'm so grateful because she had the patience and the confidence to know that potentially, I could avoid a C section if I stayed on my side. And she looked at me and she said, Do you want to have more kids? And I said, I would like to. And she said, let's see what we can do here. And she observed me in the operating room for an hour, and we found that if I stayed in a certain position, the heart rate was acceptable, and I was actually able to avoid a cesarean section. What a story. Wow. I'm so grateful to this OBGYN. It turned out she had had a lot of experience working in other countries. She'd had years of experience doing deliveries outside of the hospital, and you could tell that that confidence within her really saved me from having a C section. And I'm so grateful, because without her, I probably would have had 3c sections. So that's incredible. All all of this is to say that the people that are there to support you throughout your labor and your delivery boy, what a tremendous difference they make. And once you get in the or I would say to my clients too, you're never a prisoner there. So you can, if you know, you can change your mind, you can be in the or, actually, I don't want to do this, you know it's like, but to be at that stage, to be already in the OR, and to have a doctor at that point, which is like you're very committed that that stage, to being on your path to cesarean, to say that, and to have that patience and that trust is such a what a beautiful story. Thank you. Yes, I remember it was a little bit scary because my husband wasn't with me. They sent him outside to drape me and get me ready. You feel very powerless when you're in the delivery situation and you're on your own. So it would have been nice to have a doula there too. Yeah. So, and then I'm curious, when you think about it, what are some of the biggest misconceptions that people have about pregnancy and labor, like, is there anything that you wish that expecting parents knew was something that's normal, that they're made to believe is not normal? Yeah? Great question. So I always say, you know, through those nine months of pregnancy, you're really trusted like every moment, whether you're awake or asleep, your body is growing your baby. You don't have to think about it. It's happening without any thought. The second we go into labor, there's this assumption that you need all of the instruction, right, all of these external things, because it would be just terrible if we let this process unfold like we have the last nine months, right? And so that doesn't mean I'm saying, like, oh, free birth is the way for everyone. I'm saying, look at that and let that nine months of growing a baby, help bring the confidence into the nine hours, or, you know, 40 hours, or whatever your labor is, and being like, Wow, I did all of that right, and I was trusted to let my body do exactly what I knew how to do. Think of labor the same approach labor in that same way, with this trust and this patience that it's going to happen. So that's one, I think, that also there's this misconception that you know around the time of how long it should take, right? And there's so much pressure on women a when they're supposed to give birth, like they're when they're due date, and then how long the birth is supposed to be, and we're still utilizing archaic frameworks from like the 50s, with studies that are so flawed that don't even actually look at true physiological birth to try and dictate how long somebody's labor should be and how quickly they should be progressing. And so I talk about this in my book, that I didn't do any vaginal exams in my labor, so I never knew how dilated I was. I thought it was really, really important to detach from the numbers or this idea that, like, I was going to dilate a certain amount. I also know that I have a tendency to get in my own head about. Progress in life and things, and I'm very, you know, type a in that way. And I was like, if I someone tells me a number, I'm gonna feel like a failure, that I'm not this next number. And so really trying to remove those external expectations, these arbitrary numbers and times and dates around this process is going to bring so much more ease, and making sure that you have a provider that's aligned with that is gonna give you that patience that this process requires. I agree with you so much because, of course, some data is helpful. Some data gives you information that could potentially be helpful for the baby, for their health, but I do think we're living in an age where it's just too much. And, for example, my OB, thankfully, he gave me the option of having my cervix checked. He said, You know, the truth is, I'll tell you a number, it's going to be uncomfortable to check you, and it's not going to change my advice, the baby's still going to come when the baby's going to come. And so I was so thankful that he allowed me to say no. Thank you. The same thing I think about when they tell you the statistics of the baby when you're pregnant, when they give you the weight of the baby, because I have a lot of moms that are nervous to deliver, because maybe they're on the petite side, and the OB told them that their baby is on the larger side, and they're thinking already, they're doubtful already, that they're going to be able to have a successful vaginal birth. But the numbers can be very off, right? There's a lot of babies that they think are going to be on the bigger side, and they're not on the bigger side because it's hard to you don't have an actual scale in utero, and the numbers can sway 20% on either direction, exactly, and then it puts a seed of doubt in your mind that you can, that you can do it. And I think that's the worst thing for a mom before she before she gives birth. I often say that what's more dangerous than a big baby is the fear of the big baby, because when we look at the stats, the interventions that they impose because of the fear of a big baby that has very unreliable measurements, right? The ultrasound is not a reliable way of measuring a baby's weight in the third trimester. It's just not and so to impose those interventions create a greater risk, because we know that cesarean comes with risk, induction comes with risk. And so I break down the data a little bit in my book and talk about exactly that, how we've created more problems with this fear of a problem, yes, and my feeling is it never hurts to try if the OB suspects are having a baby on the larger side and they're nervous about having a vaginal birth, why not just attempt, yeah, and we don't know, right? Like that baby and that pelvis has never done the journey before. I've had clients with six pound babies have a hard time. You know? It doesn't. It doesn't necessarily, again, come down to a number. I have a I wrote about a dear friend and client who's about to give birth to her fourth and she makes huge babies, like she just knows this, and she births beautifully every time, and she likes to have unmedicated births in hospitals, and they always freak out, and she's always like, guys, I know this about myself, look at how it's worked out every time. I do think that too much data, too much knowledge, can get into your head and be less helpful and more fear mongering. Yeah, and you probably have a better answer to this being a doctor yourself, but in terms of, like, where it's coming from and why, I'm always curious, but I think it's, of course, yes, liability. It's the way we're trained. Sometimes it is financial incentive, and I think it's also just reflective of our modern culture. It's not just the medical system, and it's not always this malicious or rarely is it a malicious thing. It's it's more of like we live in a time that yearned for numbers and answers, and we just want so badly to have this perceived feeling of control. You want to know the due date. You want to know the sex of the baby. You want to know everything. And sometimes, if you can just relinquish a little bit and throw your hands up and say, You know what? There are some things. I'm just going to have to have a little faith that it's going to work out. It's going to work out the way it's meant to be. I think that makes the experience so much better, yeah, but it's also, I think it's that's a spiritual choice, right? Like, that's something that is, again, it's not just in medicine, like we all have to return to and I know kind of fun fact, but Jessica and I met while we were both evacuated from the fires, and it was like, this moment of the universe throws these things at sometimes we're just all plans are up in the air. All of what I thought was going to be is different, so much change, so much surrender, and it's so effing uncomfortable, right? Like to just be faced with uncertainty. And that's what this process, apparently, is doing to us on a spiritual level, I think, is like trying to expand our capacity for that absolutely. And I have to say, what I noticed about you when you were with your daughter was that you were just it felt very spiritual. It felt like you were just enjoying her, enjoying the moment. You didn't have your phone out, which I'm so impressed, because not many moms can say that these days. Yes, thank you. I'm very guilty of that a lot, so I'm glad you caught me in a moment, but it's not all the time. I wish I was better. No, I did. I did notice that so i i could just sense that you were somebody who is trying to make the most of life's moments. Thank you. So going back to being a doula, can you explain what doulas can't do, like, what? What can they do and what can't they do? In other words, how are they different from a midwife or an OB? GYN? Totally. So doulas do no clinical medical tests. We don't draw blood. We don't, you know, listen to the baby's heartbeat. We we don't. We're not catching the baby. We're not diagnosing or anything like that. So none of none of our role is medical or clinical. It's all an emotional and physical support and education. But doulas have always existed, similar to what traditionally midwives were, beyond any governing body, right? And so the idea is that I'm there for the mother, hired by the mother just to serve her, which is a luxury that obviously, when you there's good reason for certain certifications and licensure and all that, but we don't have to abide by that. And so that means we do get to create, again, not within practicing medicine, but we get to kind of create and build this relationship based off of our client and how we want to show up to support them, and how they want to receive that support. So beautiful, so amazing. I'm so happy to highlight what doulas do, because I think a lot of people have heard the term, but they don't actually know and what way they can be served. So wonderful, because you can help while pregnant, during delivery and also postpartum, correct, yeah, and postpartum doulas, which sometimes you'll find a doula who does both, and then some will do birth, and some will do just postpartum. But a postpartum doula is a very different hat, again, with that same underlying intention of being of service to the family. But it's a wonderful thing to explore, because what that can look like, and again, looks different based on the doula, but it is maybe a few days a week, or even daily, a doula coming into the home after birth to help cook, help with some laundry, and help take care of the mother, and really giving space and allowing and understanding that that time is really important for the mom and baby to be together, to be skin to skin, for, you know, mom to be breastfeeding. And so instead of somebody else coming in to feed baby and to care for baby and to do all the things with the baby, it's I'm going to take care of all the things that the parents need to be taken care of so they can be present in the parenting role in the sacred time. I'm going to provide body work or massage for the mom so she can be rested and have, you know, a healthy nervous system in this big transition. And so having a postpartum doula, I think, is really wonderful, because most will recognize that the mom knows how to mother. She just needs to be mother too. You know, as a pediatrician, I meet a lot of moms who definitely have a hard time after delivery. Yeah, they've just had a baby, their body's healing, their emotions all are all over the place, even if, even with the nicest husbands, sometimes, you know, it's still hard, because the breastfeeding falls on the mother, so that means a lot of the waking up at night falls on the mother. And so to have that extra support is a tremendous gift. I'm sure we see lower postpartum depression rates with when you have support, postpartum depression is correlated with lack of support, right? And so absolutely, and I see this all the time with the families I work with, which is like the sweetest, most well intended and supportive fathers who are like, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna cook, I'm gonna take our other child to school, and I'll walk the dog, and I will do all the things so she can rest. And I'm like, Oh, I love that, that ethos and that intention, and for you to be doing all those things takes you away from the presence too, which is equally important. And sometimes what a new mom just needs is to be seen and held and talk to and acknowledge and so to put it all into the other parent isn't the solution, right? Because that other parent is often also really tired and going through their own huge identity shift, navigating what work is going to look like. And so that was even though, of course, like there were so many things My husband was doing to help out after birth. He is one of those people who will kind of go to that service mode, oh, I'll just, I'll do this. I'll do that. And I knew I was like, you already do a lot, and kind of feel overwhelmed by it. We throw a baby into it, it's not gonna be good. And so looking back, he's like, I'm so glad you made me slow down with you. Yeah, because there was no way I could have integrated all of these new rules, all of this, these new feelings, in this period of time, and been able to enjoy it. Yes, and also, I'm thinking about breastfeeding. That is something that I think a lot of moms think should be a more innate experience than it is. Right? You have a mom with a new baby, and all you want to do is just feed your baby. And we're told, or I was told I was under the misconception, that breastfeeding would be really easy, it would be painless, that I would make milk within two, three days, and it would be a very seamless process. And then I learned that it's normal to be uncomfortable for a couple of weeks. And I think, had I had some external support, you know, thankfully, I had a good lactation consultant, but someone like a doula, lactation consultant, someone who or an experienced friend, an experienced mother, if they tell you that boy that can really, I think, I think that can make the experience a lot easier. Because you relax, you go, okay, having a little discomfort is normally beginning. It's gonna come. I just have to hang in there. So what I'm trying to say is I feel like in every step of the way with pregnancy, labor and delivery and that fourth trimester, that first month or so after having a baby, I think having quality support makes the world a difference. It really does. So if people are listening and they want to find a doula, do you have any resources that you can recommend? Yeah, so there's, you know, I say there's a lot of different ways you can find a doula asking around word of mouth. That's where most of my clients come from. So this is easier in some communities than others. But, you know, finding out from other friends, family members, and then going to, you know, your local yoga studio, acupuncture clinic, like some of the more, maybe holistic, even your pediatrician. If you're lucky enough to have a pediatrician, like Doctor Jessica, right, you may be able to recommend doulas, even your OB, your gynecologist, who might be somebody who likes to collaborate with doula. So asking around is really useful. Also, social media can be a great tool. You know, there's not like one big database, but there's, of course, collectives and certain online resources to our matching with a doula. On my website, I have my directory of recommendations for not just doulas, but pediatricians and just everything. You name it. There's obviously not every city and state, but I'm working on it. And then tell us about your beautiful book. Where can we find it? How can I send people to read your book? Yeah, it's going to be available March 25 on the shelves. I'm not sure when this is airing, but it might be around then, and I remember what the other question was, I guess, where to order Amazon, anywhere in the bookstore. Yeah, I'll make sure and link it too in the description below, where you can just easily click and get this book. Great. Well, thank you so much. I think it's very clear, after talking to you after reading your book, how important support makes a difference in enriching the experience of pregnancy, and so I'm so happy to have your book now to recommend to people that they can feel an extra resource to get to get support. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of your child is normal. Also, if you could take a moment and leave a five star review, wherever it is you listen to podcasts, I would greatly appreciate it. It really makes a difference to help this podcast grow. You can also follow me on Instagram at ask Dr Jessica. See you next Monday. You.